Inner Circle vamps in Duelist

I'm not a nitpicker, but I thought I'd ask the general public. I just grabbed Duelist #7 (takes a while to get to Europe) and was reading the two articles on V:tES and DS. In there, they give the history for 3 of the Inner Circle vampires from DS. The thing that bothered me about these histories was this: they were all sired by Antideluvians, which are 3rd generation. This would mean that these 3 IC vamps are 4th generation. 4th and 5th generation vampires are considered Methuselahs. So, in our little games of Jyhad, we could be manipulating vampires older than us... but of course, we are just being manipulated by the Antideluvians. Woops, open mouth insert foot. I was about to add something else, and I thought I'd check the V:tM RPG book to clarify. There's nothing wrong with them being 4th gen. In the section about the 4th and 5th generations, it says these vampires are called Methuselahs. It goes on to say that the Inner Circle 'is said' (gotta love the intrigue) to be composed of 4th gen vampires. In any case, it still holds that we may be manipulating vampires older than ourselves. :) Mike

In article <4k0emg$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, mboh...@students.uiuc.edu (Mike Bohlmann) writes: >I'm not a nitpicker, but I thought I'd ask the general public. > >I just grabbed Duelist #7 (takes a while to get to Europe) and was reading >the >two articles on V:tES and DS. In there, they give the history for 3 of the >Inner Circle vampires from DS. The thing that bothered me about these >histories was this: they were all sired by Antideluvians, which are 3rd >generation. This would mean that these 3 IC vamps are 4th generation. >4th and 5th generation vampires are considered Methuselahs. So, in our >little games of Jyhad, we could be manipulating vampires older than us... >but of course, we are just being manipulated by the Antideluvians. Some methuselehs are manipulated by others. No biggie, actually. *MY* nitpick is with Harrod. Harrod is 4th generation, and supposedly sired by Nosferatu himself. The problem is that all Nosferatu descend from one 4th generation Methuseleh sired by Nosferatu. Nosferatu himself is supposed to be crazy as a loon, and all his other descendants are vampiric monsters known as the Nictuku. The Nictuku's main purpose in life is to kill all Nosferatu because Nosferatu believes once all his wayward descendants are dead that his curse of ugliness will be lifted. You *could* have a 4th generation nosferatu - one who had been sired as 5th generation and later diablerized a 4th generation vampire. But that's not the story they gave. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

Mike Bohlmann (mboh...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote: : I'm not a nitpicker, but I thought I'd ask the general public. : I just grabbed Duelist #7 (takes a while to get to Europe) and was reading the : two articles on V:tES and DS. In there, they give the history for 3 of the : Inner Circle vampires from DS. The thing that bothered me about these : histories was this: they were all sired by Antideluvians, which are 3rd : generation. This would mean that these 3 IC vamps are 4th generation. : 4th and 5th generation vampires are considered Methuselahs. So, in our : little games of Jyhad, we could be manipulating vampires older than us... : but of course, we are just being manipulated by the Antideluvians. Well, I managed to play my Archon Investigation on Leandro. Imagine a puny archon blasting the one of the Oh-So-Powerful Inner Circle Vampires to smithereens... :-) --Fredrik ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | "Life is a joke, | Fredrik Appelberg | | but I'm not laughing." | fred...@dsv.su.se | ---------------------------(John Henry, 1963)--------------------------

And which clan does Rasputin belong to?

fred...@mars.dsv.su.se (Fredrik Appelberg) wrote: >Mike Bohlmann (mboh...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote: >: I'm not a nitpicker, but I thought I'd ask the general public. >: I just grabbed Duelist #7 (takes a while to get to Europe) and was reading the >: two articles on V:tES and DS. In there, they give the history for 3 of the >: Inner Circle vampires from DS. The thing that bothered me about these >: histories was this: they were all sired by Antideluvians, which are 3rd >: generation. This would mean that these 3 IC vamps are 4th generation. >: 4th and 5th generation vampires are considered Methuselahs. So, in our >: little games of Jyhad, we could be manipulating vampires older than us... >: but of course, we are just being manipulated by the Antideluvians. Actually, did you know that the Camarilla doesn't even have an "Inner Circle"? The Inner Circle is actually the Tremere council of seven, operating out of the Vienna Chantry. The Actual identity of the Inner Circle, including Etrius, who actually IS a member (and was "embraced" by Tremere during that little experiment fiasco in the 1000's), is documented in Clanbook Tremere. Anyway, WotC probably included the Inner Circles as "the inner circle of the Camarilla" just as an excuse to create massively powerful vampires. PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) "Juffo-Wup Forever!" -Darksong the Bard

In article <4kukbp$a...@sam.inforamp.net>, Darksong <dic...@inforamp.net> wrote: >fred...@mars.dsv.su.se (Fredrik Appelberg) wrote: > >>Mike Bohlmann (mboh...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote: >>: I'm not a nitpicker, but I thought I'd ask the general public. > >>: I just grabbed Duelist #7 (takes a while to get to Europe) and was reading the >>: two articles on V:tES and DS. In there, they give the history for 3 of the >>: Inner Circle vampires from DS. The thing that bothered me about these >>: histories was this: they were all sired by Antideluvians, which are 3rd >>: generation. This would mean that these 3 IC vamps are 4th generation. >>: 4th and 5th generation vampires are considered Methuselahs. So, in our >>: little games of Jyhad, we could be manipulating vampires older than us... >>: but of course, we are just being manipulated by the Antideluvians. > >Actually, did you know that the Camarilla doesn't even have an "Inner >Circle"? The Inner Circle is actually the Tremere council of seven, >operating out of the Vienna Chantry. The Actual identity of the Inner >Circle, including Etrius, who actually IS a member (and was "embraced" >by Tremere during that little experiment fiasco in the 1000's), is >documented in Clanbook Tremere. Actually, the camarilla does have an inner circle. They are the ones who select the Justicars and validate their power. Just because the Tremere have something, doesn't mean that the Camarilla doesn't. [ quoted text not captured ]

Darksong thoughtfully stated: : PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them : 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't : have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) That's a pretty big jump from 11 capacity to 30 capacity... : "Juffo-Wup Forever!" : -Darksong the Bard YES!!! JUFFO-WUP IS ALL ENCOMPASSING!!! Hey wait.. where did all those spores come from.... ACK! :) Ewok -- ___ /^\/\ ,, Juan Burwell | __| || ( {=@=====[=] Amherst College | _| \\/\// /^\ ||// \_/\/ '' jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu |___| \/\/ \_/ ||\\

In message <4l0g8p$g...@tom.amherst.edu>, Ewok said: > : PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them > : 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't > : have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) > That's a pretty big jump from 11 capacity to 30 capacity... You should see the antediluvians...:-) -c -- Colin Bunnell cjbu...@unix.amherst.edu "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of Man." -Jefferson

In message <4kukbp$a...@sam.inforamp.net>, Darksong said: > Actually, did you know that the Camarilla doesn't even have an "Inner > Circle"? The Inner Circle is actually the Tremere council of seven, > operating out of the Vienna Chantry. The Actual identity of the Inner > Circle, including Etrius, who actually IS a member (and was "embraced" > by Tremere during that little experiment fiasco in the 1000's), is > documented in Clanbook Tremere. Um, having read Clanbook Tremere cover-to-cover, I don't remember that being in there. Yes, there is certainly a Tremere Council of Seven, but I don't recall it being mentioned as being the "real" Inner Circle. Etrius is a member of both, though. My question: will future expansions have "real" vampires from the World of Darkness? I noticed that none of the vamps in the basic set are from WoD (in fact, some actually contradict WoD canon, like the princes of Chicago, Boston, and Washington D.C.), but they did take some Dark Sovereigns vampires from the WW World of Darkness (Etrius, Francois Villon, and Anne, prince of London leap to mind). Will this continue in future expansions? Tom? [ quoted text not captured ]

Colin Bunnell <cjbu...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote: >My question: will future expansions have "real" vampires from >the World of Darkness? I noticed that none of the vamps >in the basic set are from WoD (in fact, some actually >contradict WoD canon, like the princes of Chicago, Boston, >and Washington D.C.), but they did take some >Dark Sovereigns vampires from the WW World of Darkness >(Etrius, Francois Villon, and Anne, prince of London >leap to mind). Will this continue in future expansions? Isn't Dre in the starter storyline in the V:tM main book? gnfnrf

Colin Bunnell <cjbu...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote: >My question: will future expansions have "real" vampires from >the World of Darkness? I noticed that none of the vamps >in the basic set are from WoD (in fact, some actually >contradict WoD canon, like the princes of Chicago, Boston, >and Washington D.C.), but they did take some >Dark Sovereigns vampires from the WW World of Darkness >(Etrius, Francois Villon, and Anne, prince of London >leap to mind). Will this continue in future expansions? It will continue to happen to some extent. While we like to include little hooks into the World of Darkness in the card game, we don't have a quota or anything. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

In message <4l1moo$p...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu>, Alan Eisinger said: > Isn't Dre in the starter storyline in the V:tM main book? Good point. Also, I'd forgotten about good ol' Smiling Jack (a master card, admittedly, but still part of the WoD canon). [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4kukbp$a...@sam.inforamp.net>, dic...@inforamp.net (Darksong) writes: > Actually, did you know that the Camarilla doesn't even have an "Inner > Circle"? The Inner Circle is actually the Tremere council of seven, > operating out of the Vienna Chantry. The Actual identity of the Inner > Circle, including Etrius, who actually IS a member (and was "embraced" > by Tremere during that little experiment fiasco in the 1000's), is > documented in Clanbook Tremere. > No, the Camarilla ALSO has an IC. The Tremere have an IC as well, and Etrius sits on both councels. > Anyway, WotC probably included the Inner Circles as "the inner circle > of the Camarilla" just as an excuse to create massively powerful > vampires. > Well, that is what they are for in the paper game... > PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them > 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't > have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) > No, that makes them 4th generation. The conversion is 15-Capacity = generation. > "Juffo-Wup Forever!" > -Darksong the Bard > Ritaxis Setite -- Everything is up to date in Atom City. In Atom City, crime by individuals is against the law.

jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu (Ewok) wrote: >Darksong thoughtfully stated: >: PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them >: 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't >: have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) >That's a pretty big jump from 11 capacity to 30 capacity... Hrm... Well, 30 capacity in table-top... Figure generation as 16-Blood Capacity for the cards :) Someone correct me if I'm wong, but I think that's what it is :) Still, Antediluvians are pretty darn impressive. >YES!!! JUFFO-WUP IS ALL ENCOMPASSING!!! >Hey wait.. where did all those spores come from.... ACK! Ah finally one who appreciates the majesty of Juffo-Wup. Did you also submit to the implantation of the spore sacks into your brain organ? I am one with Juffo-Wup, and content. Kinda like Golconda, except everything tastes like mushrooms. :) "Frungy Frungy Frungy!" -Darksong the Bard

cjbu...@unix.amherst.edu (Colin Bunnell) wrote: >Um, having read Clanbook Tremere cover-to-cover, I don't >remember that being in there. Yes, there is certainly >a Tremere Council of Seven, but I don't recall it being >mentioned as being the "real" Inner Circle. Etrius >is a member of both, though. Really? I remember seeing something about the council of Seven being refered to as the "Inner Circle" of clan Tremere, of which Etrius was a member. Aye, well, I may be screwed up. <shrug> I'll check this evening. "Out of Starcon2 Sayings for now..." -Darksong the Bard

James Engman <eng...@okstate.edu> wrote: >And which clan does Rasputin belong to? <slow, sneaky smile>, Just because he's Malkavian doesn't mean he can't also be a Setite... <grin> Seriously, thogh, I kinda like the fact that two clans claim the Mad Monk. It kinda adds an element of misinformation into the clanbooks, reminding us that in the world of darkness, nothing is absolute. -Darksong the Bard

naz...@wam.umd.edu (MalKAViaN) wrote: > Actually, the camarilla does have an inner circle. They are the ones >who select the Justicars and validate their power. Just because the Tremere >have something, doesn't mean that the Camarilla doesn't. Really, Malkie? Cool... Where did you dig this up? :) <Darksong figures he's getting WAY behind in sourcebook collection and should REALLY STOP BUYING CARDS :) > Thanx :) TTYL :) -Darksong the Bard

In message <4l3umh$5...@sam.inforamp.net>, Darksong said: > > Actually, the camarilla does have an inner circle. They are the ones > >who select the Justicars and validate their power. Just because the Tremere > >have something, doesn't mean that the Camarilla doesn't. > Really, Malkie? Cool... Where did you dig this up? :) <Darksong > figures he's getting WAY behind in sourcebook collection and should > REALLY STOP BUYING CARDS :) > Thanx :) TTYL :) Well, maybe you should stop buying cards :-), but the info about the inner circle appointing the Justicars is in the main rulesbook. [ quoted text not captured ]

Just to ease my mind... I'm not certain though... But isn't the inner circle featured in the Giovanni chronicles (The last supper)? I could be wrong... but then I could just merly lie to you all:-) Nah! Last supper it is. I'm positive.

rit...@bbs.cruzio.com wrote: > > In article <4kukbp$a...@sam.inforamp.net>, dic...@inforamp.net (Darksong) writes: > > Actually, did you know that the Camarilla doesn't even have an "Inner > > Circle"? The Inner Circle is actually the Tremere council of seven, > > operating out of the Vienna Chantry. The Actual identity of the Inner > > Circle, including Etrius, who actually IS a member (and was "embraced" > > by Tremere during that little experiment fiasco in the 1000's), is > > documented in Clanbook Tremere. > > > > No, the Camarilla ALSO has an IC. The Tremere have an IC as well, and > Etrius sits on both councels. > > > Anyway, WotC probably included the Inner Circles as "the inner circle > > of the Camarilla" just as an excuse to create massively powerful > > vampires. > > > > Well, that is what they are for in the paper game... > > > PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them > > 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't > > have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) > > > > No, that makes them 4th generation. The conversion is 15-Capacity = > generation. So if I take Smudge and give him superior in every single discipline (12 in the current set, right?) I can have a 25 capacity vampire, which would be -10th generation? Cool. Are you sure the conversion is that absolute. I would think Methusulahs would be tremendously more powerful than the average vampire.

Darksong wrote: > Really? I remember seeing something about the council of Seven being > refered to as the "Inner Circle" of clan Tremere, of which Etrius was > a member. Aye, well, I may be screwed up. <shrug> I'll check this > evening. Dear Darksong, you are absolutely right, the council of seven IS called The Inner Circle. And I too was astonished when I read about an inner circle in the DS expansion that had nothing to do with it. Just like you I thought it was an invention of WotC to invent Powerful Vampires. There was a reply to your statement from MalKaviaN stating that the Camarilla Council that sets the Justicars is called inner Circle as well... Dear Malkavian, where did you get this from? I think I own almost all Vampire books, but simply cannot remember this one. Bye Marc

In article <317B33...@uni-muenster.de>, [ quoted text not captured ] That seems to be the case with most people. I know that I was largely ignorant of the existence of the Inner Circle in Vampire: the Masquerade, assuming also that it was a WoTC gimmic to justify the power one-upmanship that went on in Magic expansions. Only when asked (as the local Vampire guru) by one of the local players about the validity of restricting Prince/Justicar votesfrom the Inner Circle did I stumble upon the passage on pages 42-43 of the BASIC Vampire:the Masquerade (2nd edition) book. It explains the Inner Circle as a meeting of Camarilla elders occuring every 13 years to elect the Justicars (who obviously have a 13 year term) until the next Inner Circle meeting. Anyone at the meeting may speak, but each clan gets only one vote, cast by the eldest vampire in attendance of that clan. So it appears that in the original game, there is no true position of Inner Circle member, but it is not a far stretch to create the position in the spirit of the meetings for the card game.

>> >> > PS. The V:teS Inner Circles are only 11 blood capacity, making them >> > 5th generation, 1 gen weaker than us Methusulahs, so they couldn't >> > have been embraced by the Antediluvians anyway :) >> > >> >> No, that makes them 4th generation. The conversion is 15-Capacity = >> generation. > >So if I take Smudge and give him superior in every single discipline (12 >in the current set, right?) I can have a 25 capacity vampire, which would >be -10th generation? Cool. >Are you sure the conversion is that absolute. I would think Methusulahs >would be tremendously more powerful than the average vampire. I'm not sure that Blood capacity is directly linked to Generation either. For a start, I think that it also includes willpower, as a few disciplines (Chimerstry and Thaumaturgy especially) require the spending of will- power points rather than blood points. and also, a vampire with a higher willpower would be harder to dominate therefore requiring more of the methusulah's resources (blood) to bring them under their control. Also the game only states that a vampire of higher blood is OLDER.... the Blood Cap. probably signifies a mixture of all these three factors... generally a more powerful vampire will have a higher blood cap.

In article <317B33...@uni-muenster.de>, er...@uni-muenster.de says... >was a reply to your statement from MalKaviaN stating that the Camarilla >Council that sets the Justicars is called inner Circle as well... >Dear Malkavian, where did you get this from? I think I own almost all >Vampire books, but simply cannot remember this one. Well, I don't know if it got put into the 2nd edition, but the Vampire: the Masquerade rulebook (1st edition) spells it out very clearly on pages 181 and 182 (under the cryptic heading of "Inner Circle," no less.) "Every thirteen years, there is a meeting of the Elders of each Clan. This is the true hub and center of the Camarilla. Compared to this assembly, all other Conclaves are but puppet shows. The Inner Circle meets in Venice as it has done for the past 500 years. Each bloodline is allowed one representative to sit on the Inner Circle. Only this individual may vote, though all those who attend may speak." (V:tM, p.181) "The primary function of the Inner Circle is to appoint the Justicars, the judges of the Sect." (V:tM, p.182) Like I said, this *may* have been taken out when White Wolf released the 2nd edition of Vampire, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. -ru

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Marc Erl wrote: > Darksong wrote: > > > Really? I remember seeing something about the council of Seven being > > refered to as the "Inner Circle" of clan Tremere, of which Etrius was > > a member. Aye, well, I may be screwed up. <shrug> I'll check this > > evening. > > Dear Darksong, you are absolutely right, the council of seven IS called > The Inner Circle. And I too was astonished when I read about an inner > circle in the DS expansion that had nothing to do with it. Just like you > I thought it was an invention of WotC to invent Powerful Vampires. There > was a reply to your statement from MalKaviaN stating that the Camarilla > Council that sets the Justicars is called inner Circle as well... > Dear Malkavian, where did you get this from? I think I own almost all > Vampire books, but simply cannot remember this one. > Bye Marc > Pg 42 of Vampire:The Masquerade, 2nd Ed. under "The Inner Circle".