Trophy rule-nitpicking

After posting my question about Amaranth earlier, and LSJ confirming what the majority of our players already thought, more nitpicking occured. Reason why this all came up in the first place is someone going for a decent trophy deck, in which Amaranth is supposed to play a role. Another thing then came up. I quote (translated to english for your convenience): "It's kind of ridiculous that you're not getting a trophy when you block a red-list minion coming out of torpor and diablerize the sucker on the spot." The big question is: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks from deserving trophies? Keeping in mind that the rules about Red-List and trophies state: Red List: Any Methuselah may use a master phase action to mark a Red List minion for the current turn. Any ready vampire she controls may enter combat with a marked Red List minion as a +1 stealth (D) action that costs 1 blood. Each vampire can take this action only once each turn. If a vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D) action (including diablerie), his controller may go through her library, ash heap and/or hand to get a master trophy card to put on that vampire and then reshuffle her library or draw back up to her hand size as necessary. Other trophies may be moved to this vampire, as well (see section 1.6.2). This is done before the blood hunt referendum is called, if any. For some of us, it makes perfect sense that you have to actively try to burn a red-list minion (read: burn in combat or by a (D) action, including diablerie). But others don't understand why, in the case of diablerie, there is a difference between diablerie as a (D) action and diablerie as a result of a blocked self-rescue attempt. So the question stands: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks from deserving trophies?

So LSJ was it your intention to discribe the rule as it currently is, or did you forgot to include the selfrescue-diablerize in the red-list rule?

[ quoted text not captured ] Very good question. This could make Trophy Wall decks very playable....

[ quoted text not captured ] Indeed. The Trophy Wall deck is what started this discussion. Please enlighten us!

> So the question stands: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks > from deserving trophies? It was designed to exclude burning as a result of an undirected action, i.e. PTO.

[ quoted text not captured ] Well PTO is gone now, so this could be a reasonable revision if tha was original design intent.... Yes it will still allow Veles Hunt decks to pull that trick........ Yeah.....

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm assuming it was a necessary exclusion, to create a simple rule without exception clauses. You can't score trophies on your own minions. Requiring the kill to be during (1) combat or (2) direct action nicely rules it out, since it's impossible to be in combat with yourself, and impossible to perform a direct action against yourself (unless there's a loophole here with the changed multiple-targets rule) block-self-rescue-diablerie would require an exception saying "oh yeah it's also okay during this one specific block-self-rescue-diablerie scenario" ALTERNATE HYPOTHESIS: ritual of the bitter rose doesn't work during block-self-rescue-diablerie either, so might as well follow the precedent!

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, my personal opinion in this is that I think the rules for trophies are fine as they are. Burn a red-list minion in combat or through (D) action (including diablerie) and you deserve a trophy. Burning as a result of an undirected action, I think, is not in line with the trophy angle.

[ quoted text not captured ] And diablerizing your own vampire. And playing Set's Curse on your own Ossian / Jayne Jonestown / ...

> I'm assuming it was a necessary exclusion, to create a simple rule > without exception clauses. You mean like you gain a trophy when you a) burn a redlisted minion in combat or as a (D) action b) diablerize a redlisted vampire Simple, clean, without exception clauses and still perfectly sensible. And it gets rid of the awkward "including diablerie". And I made that up in 10 seconds. I'm not buying this odd differentiation was made to keep the rules simple.

On Jun 8, 4:50 am, Mark <markangel1...@gmail.com> wrote: > The big question is: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks > from deserving trophies? From receiving trophies, yes. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8ce0bc1735d6fb46

[ quoted text not captured ] I disagree, as you allow diablerizing your own red list minions. Tighten it down, make it "you gain a trophy if one of your minions burns a red list minion as a d action or by diablerie."

[ quoted text not captured ] > "you gain a trophy if one of your minions burns a red list minion ***controlled by another methuselah*** as a [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Okay I diablerize my own redlisted vampire, and get all my trophies.

[ quoted text not captured ] I disagree, as you allow diablerizing your own red list minions. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] ....or Auto-da-fe ....or Eldest Command Undeath ....or Sacrifice ....or Diablerizing your own Red List Vampire ....or burning Jayne Jonestown with Set's Curse or Barrenness

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schreef in bericht news:f30f61a5-35ef-480a...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] > From receiving trophies, yes. > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8ce0bc1735d6fb46 And the obvious follow-up: why? I mean, the rules are perfectly clear here, but I'm just wondering why this choice was made? Fluff? (cos that'd make somewhat sense, although fluff has been 'broken' regularly for playablity and on this occassion I'd argue it'd have been better off if self-rescue snacks were included in trophies) Balance? (discouraging trophy walls cos walls are boring anyway, combat too strong (ye sure!)) Easier rule? (arguably not the case, actually) Something else?

"Haze" <headle...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht news:1768a50a-8ac5-44ae...@q12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Fine. 'Controlled by another Methusalah'. Fixed it for you. Hey, it could even be "burn a red listed minion controlled by another Methusalah" and it would be even easier! So ye you can use Velen's Hunt and Set's Curse and whatnot but you know what, I'd LOVE to see more trophy/redlist play instead of it being a random gimmick that needs entire decks built around them (+ tons of combat) and are then even less efficient at winning games than vanilla combat is. There's like, what, 3 trophy decks in the TWDA?

"XZealot" <xze...@cox.net> schreef in bericht news:f2f03c9c-c28f-4c0b...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah..... I bet this comes up a lot. And why would that be bad?

On Jun 8, 11:13 am, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote: > "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> schreef in berichtnews:f2f03c9c-c28f-4c0b...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Because once active, Trophies are extremely powerful. Any method of Gerrymandering trophies onto minions should be eliminated for game balance. Does that answer your question?

"XZealot" <xze...@cox.net> schreef in bericht news:5642e6b3-5b61-4aa6...@r27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] No. It's still a royal pain in the bollocks to first red list a minion and then burn it. Whether this is by playing an Amaranth or an Auto-da-fe doesn't matter in the slightest. The only thing it does is actually allow you to find a trophy other than Diablerie from your library when you finally manage to collect a trophy. Which trophy is so powerful for you that it warrants such a restrictive and fail-prone mechanism to activate?

On Jun 8, 12:26 pm, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote: > "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> schreef in berichtnews:5642e6b3-5b61-4aa6...@r27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play

On 8 Juni, 19:57, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a > wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play No, its not easy to get into play, dont be silly. No secrets + (pack alpha) raven spy + rack + random hunting Ground is simpler if thats all you want to achive. It also dies to pentex, block denial and stuff like that just like yours does. And its not going to give you VPs consistently at *all*

>> > Because once active, Trophies are extremely powerful. Any method of >> > Gerrymandering trophies onto minions should be eliminated for game >> > balance. >> > Does that answer your question? >> >> No. It's still a royal pain in the bollocks to first red list a minion >> and >> then burn it. Whether this is by playing an Amaranth or an Auto-da-fe >> doesn't matter in the slightest. The only thing it does is actually allow >> you to find a trophy other than Diablerie from your library when you >> finally >> manage to collect a trophy. >> >> Which trophy is so powerful for you that it warrants such a restrictive >> and >> fail-prone mechanism to activate? >Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a >wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play Eternal Vigilance + Superbowl. No Secrets + Raven Spy Less cards, less actions, less moving parts and doesn't require precious MPA's. You ever played trophy decks against players that actually try to win?

[ quoted text not captured ] I had actually honestly assumed that Trophy Collecting was done whenever you burned a Red Lister that wasn't your's. Seems like you could create a very simple rule that would cover the situation... "When a minion you control burns a Red List minion during combat or diablerises a Red List minion that is controlled by another Methuselah... [rest of the Gain Trophies, have fun, etc, etc, etc that already exists]" I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at Local Qualifiers and Non-Champs- Tourneys

[ quoted text not captured ] I have crushed players with Basilia + Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack It is horrific

On Jun 8, 4:51 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > I have crushed players with Basilia + Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + > Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack > I have crushed players with Basilia > Basilia I missed you, XZealot! -- John McGlynn Basilia is an honorary Tremere in my mind.

On 9 Juni, 00:05, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > I had actually honestly assumed that Trophy Collecting was done > whenever you burned a Red Lister that wasn't your's. Seems like you > could create a very simple rule that would cover the situation... > > "When a minion you control burns a Red List minion during combat or > diablerises a Red List minion that is controlled by another > Methuselah... [rest of the Gain Trophies, have fun, etc, etc, etc that > already exists]" I still dont get why I cant blow up my own Ossian with a seth's curse and collect trophies. It still requires a decent amount of setup and the outcome can be achived by other means (and isnt dependent on you blowing up your own 3-pool investment :P). I am of course more than willing to surrender this stance if someone show me how this can be superabused. > I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at Local Qualifiers and Non-Champs- > Tourneys Indeed. It gets really tiresome to see and isnt doing anything good for the game :( alex_fnurp

[ quoted text not captured ] So changing the rules to make it easier for you to score trophies is somehow good for the game?

[ quoted text not captured ] > somehow good for the game?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - XZ, If it diversifies things so that Dominate Death of 1000 4-Bleeds and Flicks... and Death to your Kindred Spirits... are more difficult decks to use to win Qualifiers; GREAT. I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, that vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my pool now..." or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do the rest of them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while you flick..."

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, that > vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my pool now..." > or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do the rest of > them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while you flick..." If this is what you are experiencing, then you and EVERYONE in the playgroup should be playing bounce and/or reduce, so that players fear playing their Bleedy Deck Of Death. If you don't metagame, you'd doomed to failure. DOOMED. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

[ quoted text not captured ] > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8ce0... Thanks thats all i wanted to know. Im not intrested in the why, I just like to hear that LSJ is in control. Gr, Oortje

On 9 jun, 00:05, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at Local Qualifiers and Non-Champs- > Tourneys Wow you really have a weird playgroup. One of the last tournaments in belgium there were just 9 players, of which 7 had dedicaded bleed. Simple and effective. Guess what nergal-bleed won, because he bled harder then the others. If you want to promote bleed, play it youself. And smile every time you oust. :)

[ quoted text not captured ] Oortje, maybe reading his post would help? and i quote " I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at ..." ie he would like to see things other than bleed all the time. and you respond by saying if he wants more bleed....

"XZealot" <xze...@cox.net> schreef in bericht news:a9ee798c-6be9-4df6...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] >It is horrific Clearly it's so horrific and way too easy to pull off that it dominates the TWDA and tournaments in general. O wait... Reality check: just because /you/ "crush" players on a random casual table with a funny but inefficient deck doesn't make it a strong strategy. Trophies suck. Anything to make them better is more than welcome.

Xzealot > So changing the rules to make it easier for you to score trophies is > somehow good for the game? What trophy is so good it breaks the game? And if the rule is changed it wouldnt be only for me you know, there wouldnt be a paragraph that says "If your name is A.Gyhlesten you may play it like this instead" :P If you could burn your own red list minion trophy-decks arent going to run rampant all of a sudden...

[ quoted text not captured ] The reason behind this rule is simply to make Trophies difficult to get. I had a friend who wanted to do the following: get a crypt of Ishtarri and recruit Informants, call votes to make the Informants Red List, then use Kindred Segregation to burn all the Informants once you have a few Trophies on the table. Since the Informants naturally pass to your predator every turn, they'd become "annother methuslah's minion". If allowed to burn them through a vote rather than a (D) Action, that deck would simply hoard Trophies like there's no tomorrow. Trophies are powerful and should take some effort to get them. Good trophy decks do exist; I've seen one with Adana de Sforza calling Anathema on someone, rushing and destroying that minion in combat the same turn, then usingTrophy: Progeny to provide meat shields against his own predator. They are not easy to make, sure, but when they work they can be quite efficient.

>The reason behind this rule is simply to make Trophies difficult to >get. I had a friend who wanted to do the following: get a crypt of >Ishtarri and recruit Informants, call votes to make the Informants >Red List, then use Kindred Segregation to burn all the Informants once >you have a few Trophies on the table. Since the Informants naturally >pass to your predator every turn, they'd become "annother methuslah's >minion". If allowed to burn them through a vote rather than a (D) >Action, that deck would simply hoard Trophies like there's no >tomorrow. And every other Meth could try and kill the 1 life mortal and collect trophies. Or they vote down the Seg. Or - you know what -, they pay the 0 pool cost to keep the informant in play! Score! What you mean is, I guess, The Secret Must be Kept. That already combo's somewhat with Informants although clearly you'd be better off calling a KRC instead. Of course, if you all get this working, you have a deck that can reliably pass votes, churn out informants that won't be blocked, defends itself from aggressive predators cos it takes like 2 million years to setup and then is still exactly 0% on the way of ousting its prey. Sounds like new TWDA abuse. And then still... the trophies need - except 1 - to be in play to actually do anything. That in itself takes up an MPA each and every turn. How many turns are you going to put trophies on the table? >Trophies are powerful and should take some effort to get them. Good >trophy decks do exist; I've seen one with Adana de Sforza calling >Anathema on someone, rushing and destroying that minion in combat the >same turn, then usingTrophy: Progeny to provide meat shields against >his own predator. They are not easy to make, sure, but when they work >they can be quite efficient. Ye see, this is where I disagree. Trophies are shit. You can keep making up examples of how bad decks somehow dominated games when all the stars aligned but that doesn't make trophies "quite effective", because it's rather amusing to me. It gets even funnier when you are talking about a deck that even combines two totally ineffective strategies (Anathema and Trophies) and then claim it's being done with Adana de Sforza who CAN'T EVEN CALL Anathema's. Clearly trophies need help.

> Clearly trophies need help. The biggest problem with trophies is making Red Lists. An idea that hasn't been explored is a master card that makes a Minion Red List Card Idea Nowhere to Hide Master Trifle Chose a minion, that minion is now Red List. That minion's controller can cancel this card by burning 1 Pool.

XZealot wrote: >> Clearly trophies need help. > > The biggest problem with trophies is making Red Lists. You would know. > > An idea that hasn't been explored is a master card that makes a Minion > Red List > > Card Idea > > Nowhere to Hide > > Master > Trifle > > Chose a minion, that minion is now Red List. That minion's controller > can cancel this card by burning 1 Pool. > Trifle to cause your prey to burn a pool. Hmmm. I feel it's too strong. (compare to Golconda). I would add a couple more qualifiers: Chose a non-titled minion controlled by another methuselah. best - chris

On Jun 9, 12:12 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > XZealot wrote: > >> Clearly trophies need help. > > > The biggest problem with trophies is making Red Lists. > > You would know. > > > > > An idea that hasn't been explored is a master card that makes a Minion > > Red List > > > Card Idea > > > Nowhere to Hide > > > Master > > Trifle > > > Chose a minion, that minion is now Red List. That minion's controller > > can cancel this card by burning 1 Pool. > > Trifle to cause your prey to burn a pool. Hmmm. I feel it's too strong. > (compare to Golconda). All it does is Red List you though Perhaps it should be, chose a non-Red List Minion. That way if they load their deck up with them, then the counter-strategy is to let them Red List all your vampires then they jam up on them.

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> writes: > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, that > > vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my pool now..." > > or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do the rest of > > them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while you flick..." > > If this is what you are experiencing, then you and EVERYONE in the > playgroup should be playing bounce and/or reduce, so that players > fear playing their Bleedy Deck Of Death. > > If you don't metagame, you'd doomed to failure. DOOMED. Wow. I could actually hear the resonance and the reverb in that last word. And see the lights darken and the flames start to flicker. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomyDoomsOfDoom HG

On Jun 10, 1:25 am, Francis Plamondon <francis.plamon...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 6:05 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 9, 6:25 am, alex fnurp <a.gyhles...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 8 Juni, 19:57, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > > > > > Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a > > > > wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play > > > > No, its not easy to get into play, dont be silly. > > > > No secrets + (pack alpha) raven spy + rack + random hunting Ground is > > > simpler if thats all you want to achive. It also dies to pentex, block > > > denial and stuff like that just like yours does. And its not going to > > > give you VPs consistently at *all* > > > I had actually honestly assumed that Trophy Collecting was done > > whenever you burned a Red Lister that wasn't your's. Seems like you > > could create a very simple rule that would cover the situation... > > > "When a minion you control **burns a Red List minion during combat** or > > **diablerises a Red List minion** that is controlled by another > > Methuselah... [rest of the Gain Trophies, have fun, etc, etc, etc that > > already exists]" If allowed to burn them through a vote rather than a (D) > Action, that deck would simply hoard Trophies like there's no > tomorrow. "Burns DURING COMBAT or via DIABLERIE" (which would allow the Amaranth- Eat as well as (d)-action eat).... as opposed to the current which is "By taking a (D) action" About the only that manages to exclude is you using Nos/!Nos to burn Ossian with Horseshoes at 6 stealth... (obf-pot)

[ quoted text not captured ] > Red List all your vampires then they jam up on them.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Enemy of the State Action 1 blood +1 stealth (d) Action. Choose a non-Red List minion. The target minion becomes Red List. If this action was taken by a Prince, Archbishop, Baron, Justicar or ((Whatever it was that Karsh got from the Storyline)) then this acting minion untaps at the resolution of this action regardless if it is successful.

On Jun 10, 4:34 am, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] We have done that, we do do that and all it becomes is "Hot Potato" with a 2 bleed... or until someone cycles into an Archon Investigation for a 4+ bleed.

Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Janne Hägglund wrote: >> "Kevin M." writes: >>> Juggernaut1981 wrote: >>>> I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, >>>> that> vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my >>>> pool now..." or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do >>>> the rest of them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while >>>> you flick..." >> >>> If this is what you are experiencing, then you and EVERYONE in the >>> playgroup should be playing bounce and/or reduce, so that players >>> fear playing their Bleedy Deck Of Death. >> >>> If you don't metagame, you'd doomed to failure. DOOMED. > > We have done that, we do do that and all it becomes is "Hot Potato" > with a 2 bleed... or until someone cycles into an Archon > Investigation for a 4+ bleed. Then your playgroup isn't learning very much. If players continue to play their Bleedy Deck Of Death even though everyone continues to play bounce and/or reduce, then someone should play an intercept wall with Smiling Jack, someone should play a Draba deck, someone should play Dark Influences, and someone should play Una or another serious combat deck. If not, please give me the address of your playgroup so I can come up there and wreck you all. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jun 10, 8:04 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Juggernaut1981 wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] > Please visit VTESville daily!http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ > Please bid on my auctions!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Address: Sydney Australia. Feel free to come past, we have better beer and better beaches [/poking KJM]