Message 28 in thread
From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: All good things? [Was Re: Newsletter Invitation]
"The revelation that Archon rush was repeatable did not come until
after CE was released."
I still do not understand this ruling at all. You cannot repeat an
action by specefic type (bleed, vote, card in play, etc.).
Archon grants the named vampire the enter combat at +1 stealth action.
The named vampire is a card in play.
Multiple archon enter combat actions by teh same minion in the same
turn should not be possible. End of story. Close that loophole and
this discussion on Tyler decks being broken can be closed.
T
"Talonz" a écrit dans le message de news:
76d1d5ef.03010...@posting.google.com...
> "The revelation that Archon rush was repeatable did not come until
> after CE was released."
>
> I still do not understand this ruling at all. You cannot repeat an
> action by specefic type (bleed, vote, card in play, etc.).
>
> Archon grants the named vampire the enter combat at +1 stealth action.
>
> The named vampire is a card in play.
not that easy !
The card that grants the vampire the rush ability is NOT in play anymore, as
it is the vote card named Archon. Look, it is in your ash heap. Not in play
anymore.
Your vampire is still in play with a new ability that is not a special text
below its picture, neither a card in play that allows him to rush, "à la"
bloodhunt, and by the way is not covered by the NRA rule.
So, Tyler can still eat half a table in one turn and Ellen Fence is trying
to do the same once she becomes Templar (tricky rush-earth meld-psyche!-wolf
claws-amaranth-gangrel conspiracy-rush...)
Sorry
Arpeges
"Arpeges" <ego...@club-internet.frNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:3e1a9eb3$0$7369$7a62...@news.club-internet.fr...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I have to say that although I understand and agree with the rules
clarification as stated above, this does lead to Tyler's own ability
becoming very broken when used in combination with Archon. I've seen this in
action a couple of times now, and quite frankly it's horrible. I don't
suppose the Rules Team are prepared to reign her in at all in the forseeable
future? Just restricting her ability to 'usable once per turn only' would be
helpful.
Regards,
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 12:34:07 +0100, Mike Nudd wrote:
> I have to say that although I understand and agree with the rules
> clarification as stated above, this does lead to Tyler's own ability
> becoming very broken when used in combination with Archon. I've seen
> this in action a couple of times now, and quite frankly it's horrible. I
> don't suppose the Rules Team are prepared to reign her in at all in the
> forseeable future? Just restricting her ability to 'usable once per turn
> only' would be helpful.
In my opinion, the problem mainly lies in Archon and Templar resulting in
'ghost abilities' rather than cards in play. Why can't we have:
Archon (political action)
Worth 1 vote. Called by any Prince or Justicar at +1 stealth.
Choose a Camarilla vampire. If the referendum is successful, place this
card on him. This vampire may enter combat with a vampire controlled by
another Methusela as a +1 stealth (D)action. Any vampire attempting to
block him burns 1 blood. Blood Hunts cannot be called on this vampire. Any
Camarilla vampire can call a referendum to remove this card as a +1
stealth political action.
This way, Archon and Templar wouldn't elude the NRA rules from the
rulebook. They still provide multi-rush capacities, provided you can fuel
Tyler with Havens Uncovered, Ambushes, Bum's Rushes and Harasses. But
they don't get abused.
If the 'Gangrel bleed loop' deck was an argument for pushing the first
NRA rulings, this Tyler-Archon-Amaranth deck is just as strong an example
that the situation we have between Archon and our NRA rules is a problem.
The Tyler combo deck has a huge advantage in minion actions when compared
to similar decks.
One might think that it's nice to have combat decks getting more table
wins. I certainly argree, but in this case it's not about the combat
strategy, it's about a very narrow case: non-card-based abilities and the
current NRA rules.
Being quite sleep deprived, I can only see two solutions to solve this
(okay, three):
1) Change the NRA rules to account for non-card-based abilities such as
those provided by Archon and Templar. Quite frankly, I don't think it's a
good idea, as I really like the simplicity (ok, the not-too-complexity)
of these rules. Adding an other clause would be a burden, specially to
new players.
2) Errata all cards that provide 'ghost abilities', i.e. abilities that
grant actions but are not materialized by a card in play. It is a pain to
remember these. I never put the Archon card in my ash heap after passing
the referendum. I use it as a gizmo to mark the Archon, so I remember it,
and I don't have to argue with my fellow methuselah about it later in the
game. To sum up, leaving these cards in play would ease the game, and fix
the NRA loophole.
3) Nothing's broken, so no need for a fix. Just noted here for the sake
of exhaustivity. I don't believe it.
--
Francois
Mike Nudd wrote:
> I have to say that although I understand and agree with the rules
> clarification as stated above, this does lead to Tyler's own ability
> becoming very broken when used in combination with Archon. I've seen this in
> action a couple of times now, and quite frankly it's horrible. I don't
> suppose the Rules Team are prepared to reign her in at all in the forseeable
> future? Just restricting her ability to 'usable once per turn only' would be
> helpful.
The Archon loophole, not Tyler, is on the list for RT review.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E1AD1BA...@white-wolf.com...
> The Archon loophole, not Tyler, is on the list for RT review.
For consistency, should Templar be on the list too?
While the RT is at it, I wouldn't mind seeing title-granting
votes added to the list too. :-) Although I admit that if
that were going to happen, the logical place to start would
have been with CE (or even SW) reprints.
Josh
i swear, i'm on the list!
Joshua Duffin wrote:
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E1AD1BA...@white-wolf.com...
>
> > The Archon loophole, not Tyler, is on the list for RT review.
>
> For consistency, should Templar be on the list too?
It is.
> While the RT is at it, I wouldn't mind seeing title-granting
> votes added to the list too. :-) Although I admit that if
> that were going to happen, the logical place to start would
> have been with CE (or even SW) reprints.
Title-granters could conceivably be left "in play", but the change
is not as interesting as with action-granters. I doubt if the
benefit for such a change can even see the errata threshold, much
less cross it. :-)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <avedvf$lsq$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>, Mike Nudd
<mi...@vekn.org.uk> writes:
>I have to say that although I understand and agree with the rules
>clarification as stated above, this does lead to Tyler's own ability
>becoming very broken when used in combination with Archon. I've seen this in
>action a couple of times now, and quite frankly it's horrible.
Similar has been said about many decks.
This may simply mean that the counter attacks to it are not being
exploited. There are quite a few. I'd point to Temptation of Greater
Power, which was far from unassailable - but where it took people a fair
amount of time to decide that the Justicar was the weak point.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E1AE4B0...@white-wolf.com...
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> >
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E1AD1BA...@white-wolf.com...
> >
> > > The Archon loophole, not Tyler, is on the list for RT review.
> >
> > For consistency, should Templar be on the list too?
>
> It is.
Oh good. :-)
> Title-granters could conceivably be left "in play", but the change
> is not as interesting as with action-granters. I doubt if the
> benefit for such a change can even see the errata threshold, much
> less cross it. :-)
Yeah, for title votes there's no rules benefit, just an ease-of-
remembering one. Clearly that's so far under the errata threshold
that the light from the errata threshold would take a million years
to reach it. :-) Just would be nice to have in updated card text,
if it'd been done early enough...
Josh
i don't have to kill anyone? then why call for me?
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:q2s$hUPPIu...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <avedvf$lsq$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>, Mike Nudd
> <mi...@vekn.org.uk> writes:
> >I have to say that although I understand and agree with the rules
> >clarification as stated above, this does lead to Tyler's own ability
> >becoming very broken when used in combination with Archon. I've seen this in
> >action a couple of times now, and quite frankly it's horrible.
>
> Similar has been said about many decks.
Well yeah, and it's true about a fair number of them. Horrible is
kind of the gold standard of tournament-worthy-nastiness. See also
Tariq Eats World, Zillah's/Parity Shift, et cetera. :-)
> This may simply mean that the counter attacks to it are not being
> exploited. There are quite a few. I'd point to Temptation of Greater
> Power, which was far from unassailable - but where it took people a fair
> amount of time to decide that the Justicar was the weak point.
You may have noticed that ToGP got card-text-migrated to be about
one-tenth as exploitable in CE? :-)
Josh
tempted by lesser power
> Yeah, for title votes there's no rules benefit, just an ease-of-
> remembering one. Clearly that's so far under the errata threshold
> that the light from the errata threshold would take a million years
> to reach it. :-) Just would be nice to have in updated card text,
> if it'd been done early enough...
Well, there are some corner-cases where title votes being in the
ash heap is significant.
For example, you could Echo of Harmonies your Praxis Seizure over to
Angela Preston, so your current Prince can do something wacky and die.
Or Carlotta Giovanni could dig up an Investiture for you.
Or someone could use Jara Drory's ability to stuff your hand with a
used Crusade.
Or they could make a new card that lets you take Political Actions from
someone else's ash heap.
etc.
A suggestion I had once had is to play with "title counters", to go along
with the blood, Edge, corruption counters, disease counters, etc.
Just something to mark that a Praxis Seizure had been called, or, more
importantly (and often more forgettably) that a vampire with a
*printed* title had lost it. The idea didn't really catch on, but it
would save from people playing "wrong" and using the title-granting vote
cards as markers...
Alternatively or additionally,(hey, I just thought of this one, so it's
slightly tangential), there could be "vote" counters, which makes it much
easier to eyeball the vote situation on the table. Show how many votes
the vampire has (and how many Priscus votes they have with a separate color).
And then you can even physically cast the votes (either into piles, or by
flipping over the coins, or whatever), if you want to get more complicated...
Jozxyqk, who should really stop now :)
In message <aveqqm$f2vgs$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin
<jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes:
>You may have noticed that ToGP got card-text-migrated to be about
>one-tenth as exploitable in CE? :-)
Were it considered a point of brokenness, however, the Rules Team would
surely have issued errata.
The Design Team have shown a preference, however, for doing some less
critical fiddles than would necessitate errata.
[ quoted text not captured ]
YES !
I've got a suggestion too !
Why wouldn't we play with detailed plastic or iron miniatures, with a dice
systems and a mesure system ?
That would be a great way for WW to make cash : after the clanbooks, the
Codexbooks !
I wanna play the Codex : Lasombra, yeah !
Other idea : play with cards with in-built slots in order to insert coins,
dices, marks, other counters...
Other idea : forget the last one =) but print instead A4 crypt cards (crypt
sheets ?) to put on all your counters
Other idea : Vtes Live Action (forget it)
Really, is it possible to play Vtes on small tables ? I guess not.
Personnally, I use a laptop computer to always track the history of the
counters, the vote on the table, the pool... Yes, I know, I launch a JOL
session each time I play with my playgroup. Thus, we are SURE to not forget
anything, which would be otherwise worthy of capital death by strangulation.
But hey, Vtes is a SERIOUS game isn't it ?
Arpeges (humor humor, stay calm)
> > Similar has been said about many decks.
That's true !
> Well yeah, and it's true about a fair number of them. Horrible is
> kind of the gold standard of tournament-worthy-nastiness. See also
> Tariq Eats World, Zillah's/Parity Shift, et cetera. :-)
You're right, and I just notice that, in the case of the Tyler loop (far
more evil that the only archon loop (allthough there is still a way to make
Lithrac archon and freak drive and....)), as well as for the Tariq eats
world show, a single common card ruins all the wishes of the dirty Meth who
plays these decks : canine horde. C'mon, there are far others...
I mean, what is delightful in Vtes is the balance in the game between all
the strategies. No metagame is better than another one. There is ALWAYS a
way to defeat a "broken combo". Why does metagame evolve ? Just because at a
time, players have found how to defeat the combo that rules before. And
then, they have to find a new way to take benefit of the newly installed
metagame, and so long.
I think nothing is broken in this game. If you lose in front of a deck, try
a new one that has defence against it. That is, to my opinion, that simple.
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E1AE4B0...@white-wolf.com>...
> >
> > > The Archon loophole, not Tyler, is on the list for RT review.
> >
> > For consistency, should Templar be on the list too?
>
> It is.
That is good news!
>
> > While the RT is at it, I wouldn't mind seeing title-granting
> > votes added to the list too.
>> Title-granters could conceivably be left "in play", but the change
> is not as interesting as with action-granters. I doubt if the
> benefit for such a change can even see the errata threshold, much
> less cross it. :-)
Perhaps, but sometimes the 'law of the land' needs to change to match
actual practice as well. In general, the vast majority of all players
I've met leave the title/archon cards on the vampire. Not just for
'remembering' but also because these titles can later be removed by
votes, and it is much easier to remove the card when this is done than
any other system of marking.
T
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sounds fine.
That's a perfectly acceptable system, so long as everyone agrees and
understands that the PS cards are actually in the ash heap.
Of course, the need for non-card-based designations would not be eliminated
by errata'ing the PS cards to remain in play - you'd still have the problem
of a vampire with a prince title printed on his card yielding the title.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
> Mike Nudd wrote:
>>>I have to say that although I understand and agree with the rules
>>clarification as stated above, this does lead to Tyler's own ability
>>becoming very broken when used in combination with Archon. I've seen this in
>>action a couple of times now, and quite frankly it's horrible. I don't
>>suppose the Rules Team are prepared to reign her in at all in the forseeable
>>future? Just restricting her ability to 'usable once per turn only' would be
>>helpful.>
>
> The Archon loophole, not Tyler, is on the list for RT review.
>
Is it an Archon loophole or an NRA loophole?
If "allowed by a card in play" was changed to "allowed by a card played"
is there anything else that would break? If not, most 'problems' should
be covered.
Sten During
Jozxyqk wrote:
::: Yeah, for title votes there's no rules benefit, just an ease-of-::: remembering one. Clearly that's so far under the errata threshold
::: that the light from the errata threshold would take a million
::: years to reach it. :-) Just would be nice to have in updated
::: card text, if it'd been done early enough...::
:: Well, there are some corner-cases where title votes being in the
:: ash heap is significant.
:: For example, you could Echo of Harmonies your Praxis Seizure over
:: to Angela Preston, so your current Prince can do something wacky
:: and die. Or Carlotta Giovanni could dig up an Investiture for you.
:: Or someone could use Jara Drory's ability to stuff your hand with a
:: used Crusade.
I imagine a scenario where every Harbinger you control becomes a Sabbat
Cardinal using the vote card + whisper from the dead =)
that would be great !! =)
"Arpeges" <ego...@club-internet.frNOSPAM> wrote:
> Other idea : Vtes Live Action (forget it)
I _have_ run VTES live-action, at two different conventions...
The girl who played Sascha Vykos was scary.
james o'rance
http://www.geocities.com/dragon-dreamer
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E1B38CB...@white-wolf.com>...
> >
> > Perhaps, but sometimes the 'law of the land' needs to change to match
> > actual practice as well. In general, the vast majority of all players
> > I've met leave the title/archon cards on the vampire. Not just for
> > 'remembering' but also because these titles can later be removed by
> > votes, and it is much easier to remove the card when this is done than
> > any other system of marking.
>
> Sounds fine.
> That's a perfectly acceptable system, so long as everyone agrees and
> understands that the PS cards are actually in the ash heap.
>
> Of course, the need for non-card-based designations would not be eliminated
> by errata'ing the PS cards to remain in play - you'd still have the problem
> of a vampire with a prince title printed on his card yielding the title.
Of course, unless you use the 'harpies/retribution/etc.' card itself
to mark the removal of a title. Which runs into problems with a deck
that uses ash heap recycling, but there you are.
T