Sabbat: Spider can steal a weapon as a strike. If Spider is blocked and the
blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, Spider burns 1
blood.
Does this mean that is Spider plays SUP Form of Mist, he burns 1 blood at
the end of the action?
Second:
Advanced, Sabbat Archbishop of Washington, D.C.: If Sascha is ready, you may
draw a card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
card. [MERGE] Sabbat cardinal.
Since this card fails to have the discard text, does your hand size continue
to grow?
It appears it does since other vampires and cards from the same set have the
discard down text.
Raille
> Advanced, Sabbat Archbishop of Washington, D.C.: If Sascha is ready, you may
> draw a card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
> card. [MERGE] Sabbat cardinal.
>
> Since this card fails to have the discard text, does your hand size continue
> to grow?
>
He does not increase your hand size. Since you then have more cards in
hand then your hand size, you must discard.
Raille wrote:
> Sabbat: Spider can steal a weapon as a strike. If Spider is blocked and the
> blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, Spider burns 1
> blood.
>
> Does this mean that is Spider plays SUP Form of Mist, he burns 1 blood at
> the end of the action?
If the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, yes.
> Second:
>
> Advanced, Sabbat Archbishop of Washington, D.C.: If Sascha is ready, you may
> draw a card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
> card. [MERGE] Sabbat cardinal.
>
> Since this card fails to have the discard text, does your hand size continue
> to grow?
No. It says nothing about increasing hand size.
> It appears it does since other vampires and cards from the same set have the
> discard down text.
It is covered by the rules. Reminder text is not included when space
prohibits it.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:ftDAd.1186339$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Raille wrote:
> > Sabbat: Spider can steal a weapon as a strike. If Spider is blocked and
the
> > blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, Spider burns 1
> > blood.
> >
> > Does this mean that is Spider plays SUP Form of Mist, he burns 1 blood
at
> > the end of the action?
>
> If the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, yes.
>
So, what if he's blocked, plays FoM, is blocked again, plays shadow body,
blocked again, plays mirror image. Burns 3 blood?
/henrik isaksson
"henrik isaksson" <PLEASEDONTSP...@spray.se> wrote in message
news:33ggolF...@individual.net...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yes. Then call the Guiness Book of Records.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:33gl3nF...@individual.net...
> > > If the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, yes.
> > >
> > So, what if he's blocked, plays FoM, is blocked again, plays shadow
body,
> > blocked again, plays mirror image. Burns 3 blood?
>
>
> Yes. Then call the Guiness Book of Records.
sarcasm detected.
> > > > Sabbat: Spider can steal a weapon as a strike. If Spider is
> > > > blocked and the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the
> > > > action, Spider burns 1 blood.
> > > >
> > > > Does this mean that is Spider plays SUP Form of Mist, he burns 1
> > > > blood at the end of the action?
> > >
> > > If the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, yes.
> > >
> > So, what if he's blocked, plays FoM, is blocked again, plays shadow body,
> > blocked again, plays mirror image. Burns 3 blood?
>
> Yes. Then call the Guiness Book of Records.
>
Why does he burn 3?
"Was Spider blocked and the blocking minion still ready?"
Yes. Then he burns 1 Blood.
"If" sounds like an either/or question, not a how many question.
"Gregory Stuart Pettigrew" <ethe...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in
message news:2004122920...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net...
[ quoted text not captured ]
You're right. He burns one. Three times.
And if he's blocked again on his next action, it'll be another one.
It's an "each time he's blocked" thing, not a "once each game"
thing.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:17:26 -0500, "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com>
scrawled:
>"henrik isaksson" <PLEASEDONTSP...@spray.se> wrote in message
>news:33ggolF...@individual.net...>> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
>> news:ftDAd.1186339$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> > Raille wrote:
>> > > Sabbat: Spider can steal a weapon as a strike. If Spider is blocked>and>> the
>> > > blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, Spider burns>1>> > > blood.
>> > >
>> > > Does this mean that is Spider plays SUP Form of Mist, he burns 1>blood>> at
>> > > the end of the action?
>> >
>> > If the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, yes.
>> >
>> So, what if he's blocked, plays FoM, is blocked again, plays shadow body,
>> blocked again, plays mirror image. Burns 3 blood?>
>
>Yes. Then call the Guiness Book of Records.
also, if he's got OBT, you may as well just play 3 Shadow Bodies.
otherwise your deck will be too diluted to do that winning thing
you're doing with a !gangrel with OBT, that's not a bleed, reliably.
;)
hmmm...
I assume if it's the same minion blocking each time with a WwEF or
something, Spider will only be burning 1 blood at the end of the
action, as the 'special ability' is counting the blocking minions, not
the number of blocks, corrrect?
Also, if Spider-Killer blocks Spider, and Spider burns, do you get to
yell "HA, told you so!"?
and if Spider, with his OBT, is taking a Descent into Darkness action,
but is blocked, and plays Form of Mist, and then the action is
successful, does he get to avoid the burning 1 blood because he's now
out of play?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:utm6t0li57uod0d85...@4ax.com...
> I assume if it's the same minion blocking each time with a WwEF or
> something, Spider will only be burning 1 blood at the end of the
> action, as the 'special ability' is counting the blocking minions, not
> the number of blocks, corrrect?
And if that minion blocks him again next action (or next turn or
whatever), it wouldn't count?
No. Each block counts.
> and if Spider, with his OBT, is taking a Descent into Darkness action,
> but is blocked, and plays Form of Mist, and then the action is
> successful, does he get to avoid the burning 1 blood because he's now
> out of play?
Yes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:50:43 -0500, "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com>
scrawled:
>"salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:utm6t0li57uod0d85...@4ax.com...>> I assume if it's the same minion blocking each time with a WwEF or
>> something, Spider will only be burning 1 blood at the end of the
>> action, as the 'special ability' is counting the blocking minions, not
>> the number of blocks, corrrect?>
>And if that minion blocks him again next action (or next turn or
>whatever), it wouldn't count?
>
>No. Each block counts.
hmmm. i guess i sort of see it unravelling backwards.
at the end of the action, you check to see if he was blocked.
if he was, you check to see if blocker was ready at the end of the
action.
for each pair of 'yes' responses, burn 1 blood.
hmm. i guess that results in 1 blood per block too, as you get to
'resuse' the 'ready at end of action' for each block. hmm...
right then, more coffee.
less hmms.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:ftDAd.1186339$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Raille wrote:>> Sabbat: Spider can steal a weapon as a strike. If Spider is blocked and
>> the
>> blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, Spider burns 1
>> blood.
>>
>> Does this mean that is Spider plays SUP Form of Mist, he burns 1 blood at
>> the end of the action?>
> If the blocking minion is still ready at the end of the action, yes.
>>> Second:
>>
>> Advanced, Sabbat Archbishop of Washington, D.C.: If Sascha is ready, you
>> may
>> draw a card from your library whenever another Methuselah plays a master
>> card. [MERGE] Sabbat cardinal.
>>
>> Since this card fails to have the discard text, does your hand size
>> continue
>> to grow?>
> No. It says nothing about increasing hand size.
Really. so I draw a card and look at it, but since nothing allows me to
place it into my hand the card is discarded.
Correct?
Or, I get to add it to my hand temporarily increasing my hand size, then
selectively discarded a card?
>> It appears it does since other vampires and cards from the same set have
>> the
>> discard down text.>
> It is covered by the rules. Reminder text is not included when space
> prohibits it.
What we need is a RT icon or abbreviation for long winded cards. :)
Raille
Raille wrote:
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message>>Raille wrote:>>>Since this card fails to have the discard text, does your hand size
>>>continue
>>>to grow?>>
>>No. It says nothing about increasing hand size.>
> Really. so I draw a card and look at it, but since nothing allows me to
> place it into my hand the card is discarded.
> Correct?
No. You "Draw" the card.
> Or, I get to add it to my hand temporarily increasing my hand size, then
> selectively discarded a card?
Your hand size is not increased, even temporarily.
The number of cards in your hand exceeds your hand size.
That fact is what causes you to discard.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Raille wrote:
> >> Since this card fails to have the discard text, does your hand
size
> >> continue
> >> to grow?
> >
> > No. It says nothing about increasing hand size.
>
> Really. so I draw a card and look at it, but since nothing allows me
to
> place it into my hand the card is discarded.
> Correct?
>
> Or, I get to add it to my hand temporarily increasing my hand size,
then
> selectively discarded a card?
You're being deliberately thick-headed here, right?
There's nothing that _prevents_ you from putting it in your hand. Plus,
the commonly-accepted concept 'drawing a card' is 'taking the top card
from the deck and putting it in your hand' - most people don't need to
have things like that specifically defined for them.
You get to add it to your hand, which does NOT temporarily increase
your hand size, so you must then discard a card.
There actually IS something that allows you to place it into your hand.
The rule on 'hand size' is not 'you cannot add cards to your hand if
you already have the right number' but (quoting the rulebook:) "The
number of cards in your hand should always match your hand size (less
any cards you are not replacing until later). Whenever they don't match
(when an effect changes your hand size or adds or removes cards from
your hand, for example), immediately discard down to or draw up to your
hand size."
Drawing a card for Sascha's special is an 'effect that adds a card to
your hand' without changing your hand size, so per the rule you must
immediately discard back down to your hand size.
And until that card is placed in your hand, your hand and hand-size
match; you are not forced to discard until the card enters your hand.
Once it has entered your hand, there's no card-memory effect dictating
which card must be discarded, so you pick one (even if you didn't just
draw it) to discard per the rule.
> Raille
-John Flournoy
John Flournoy wrote:
> You're being deliberately thick-headed here, right?
No, I think he is diliberately making a point about contradictory wordings
in cards.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
> > You're being deliberately thick-headed here, right?
>
> No, I think he is diliberately making a point about contradictory wordings
> in cards.
>
In this case, at least, the wordings aren't contradictory. It's just that
some of them are verbose, and make the terse ones seem contradictory.
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> John Flournoy wrote:
>
>>>You're being deliberately thick-headed here, right?>
>
> No, I think he is diliberately making a point about contradictory wordings
> in cards.
They aren't contradictory.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
> They aren't contradictory.
I'm not saying they are (I'm actually mostly unclear on what is being argued
about here). I was just clarifying that Dave wasn't being thick-headed.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"John Flournoy" <carn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104421753.2...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
> You're being deliberately thick-headed here, right?
>
Of course.
But occasionally being thick headed allows the thought process to address
new venues.
If none question, then the the game would still be perfect with the Jyhad
rules.
Raille
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:BDF99B96.1C097%pd...@lightlink.com...
> John Flournoy wrote:
>>> You're being deliberately thick-headed here, right?>
> No, I think he is diliberately making a point about contradictory wordings
> in cards.
>
Well that also, But LSJ's reply seems a bit open to interpetation, so I
just Dove in.
Raille
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:BDFA2D3C.1C0B5%pd...@lightlink.com...
> LSJ wrote:
>>> They aren't contradictory.>
> I'm not saying they are (I'm actually mostly unclear on what is being
> argued
> about here). I was just clarifying that Dave wasn't being thick-headed.
>
Sorry Peter, But I was. ;)
Some time its a good thing. See previous post.
Raille
Raille wrote:
> Sorry Peter, But I was. ;)
>
> Some time its a good thing. See previous post.
Well. I meant "thick headed" in the sense of "not knowing what he is talking
about" as opposed to "being obtuse to make a point", which I suppose is
being deliberately thick headed, when you think about it really.
Never mind.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:BDFAE55A.1C0C8%pd...@lightlink.com...
> Raille wrote:
>>> Sorry Peter, But I was. ;)
>>
>> Some time its a good thing. See previous post.>
> Well. I meant "thick headed" in the sense of "not knowing what he is
> talking
> about" as opposed to "being obtuse to make a point", which I suppose is
> being deliberately thick headed, when you think about it really.
>
> Never mind.
Sorry can't do that. :)
However I see your point. And your are correct. I was obtuse, but thick
headed is easier to understand.
and I don't have limitations on the amount of text that gets placed on me.
;)
Raille
[ quoted text not captured ]
Which is an unfortunate lack of clarity. I see absolutely no point in
expanding the text on some cards and keeping it brief on others - the best
way to go with a CCG is to keep a defined terminology and try to stick to
that. Like, highlighting in the rulebook that "whenever you draw a card,
you should check whether your current hand size has been exceeded, and if
it has, discard to your hand size." Then there is no need to include any
"remminder text" on cards.
Also, use uniform (and preferable predefined) phrases for common
occurances.
Like, "five" meaning "five", "five or more" meaning "five or more", etc.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Bingo. Thats what I'm saying. keep it simple. When on one hand you
have a dozens of cards that say, Draw up to X, discard down to your
hand size.
Then all of a sudden you have draw 1 card. I've looked at the card.
The additional text would have fit is thet abrev. washington as Wash.
And since there has been no official clarification for Sacha, its easy
to
figure she's a crazy hand increasing machine.
People do use the offical errata from the site, so a quick fix or
clarification for the card should be placed there.
Its the first placed I looked.
Raille
rai...@yahoo.com wrote:
> People do use the offical errata from the site, so a quick fix or
> clarification for the card should be placed there.
> Its the first placed I looked.
The rulebook should be the first place to look for rules on
things like hand size issues.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Very true, however I hate telling the guru of rules the single fact
that
card text trumps rules.
In this case card text gives a false lead.
Please make a listing on the clarifications page. Its the only way I
(and
others) have to deal with ornery new players.
or in some cases, ornery old players.
I hate to be telling you your job, but, its not like I'm pushing for
some earth shaking rules correction, or card text change. Please just
fix the clarifications page and let people play. You've already wasted
more time ignoring the question/concern that it would have to update
the clarifications.
Raille
rai...@yahoo.com wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
You need to provide context for "this case", or the statement
is meaningless.
It is not the only way, BTW.
The rulebook can be assumed to be correct regarding the rules, since
it is correct by definition.
Duplicating the entire rulebook in the clarifications document is
not a productive line.
[ quoted text not captured ]
rai...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Very true, however I hate telling the guru of rules the single fact
> that
> card text trumps rules.
>
> In this case card text gives a false lead.
That's a very silly statement. I can't find anything on Sascha that
gives it a false lead about card text trumping rules. Her card text is
very clear and unambiguous.
The 'false lead' you seem to believe is present does not exist in card
text but in comparing different card texts, none of which individually
trump the rules.
None of the cards involved say '...and ignore the hand size rule' or
anything like it. One of them (Sascha) says 'do X' and the rest say 'do
X and then follow the rulebook as usual'.
The _absence_ of text cannot be stated as 'card text trumps rules' - if
there is no card text, how can it trump anything?
> Please make a listing on the clarifications page. Its the only way I
> (and
> others) have to deal with ornery new players.
> or in some cases, ornery old players.
But yeah, ornery new players suck. :P
> Raille
-John Flournoy
"John Flournoy" <carn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104853381....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> rai...@yahoo.com wrote:>> Very true, however I hate telling the guru of rules the single fact
>> that
>> card text trumps rules.
>>
>> In this case card text gives a false lead.>
> That's a very silly statement. I can't find anything on Sascha that
> gives it a false lead about card text trumping rules. Her card text is
> very clear and unambiguous.
>
Aye. In order invoke "the cards to circumvent the rules", the card text
must do so _explicitly_. Your 'false lead' is arrived at by implicit
comaprison with other card's text. That is not the correct method to
apply.
Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
So card text that tells me to draw, but not discard is not clear
enough????
I don't have to check against other cards, I just did for reference.
As printed you draw, period, nothing else is dictated by card text.
isn't that clear enough?
"Raille" <rai...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1104857911....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> So card text that tells me to draw, but not discard is not clear
> enough????
>
It doesn't explicitly say 'don't discard down to your hand size', so you
discard down to your hand size, per the Rules. That is what is meant by
'explicit card text' being what overrides the rules. You don't check for
card text overriding rules by looking at what isn't printed on a card, you
check by reading only exactly what is on the card, and no more.
> I don't have to check against other cards, I just did for reference.
>
Thats fine, but it is apparently what tripped you up in mis-interpreting the
card. I only suggest a method of thinking which is less prone to errors of
interpretation...
> As printed you draw, period, nothing else is dictated by card text.
> isn't that clear enough?
>
Yep, it is clear enough. What to do after you draw above your hand size is
dealt with per the Rules, because there is no text on the card telling you
to _specifically_ do otherwise.
Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
news:opsjzlno...@news.chello.hu...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Bingo. Thats what I'm saying. keep it simple. When on one hand you have a
dozens of cards that say,
Draw up to X, discard down to your hand size.
Then all of a sudden you have draw 1 card. I've looked at the card.
The additional text would have fit is thet abrev. washington as Wash.
And since there has been no official clarification for Sacha, its easy to
figure she's a crazy hand increasing machine.
People do use the offical errata from the site, so a quick fix or
clarification for the card should be placed there.
Its the first placed I looked.
Raille
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Raille wrote:
> And since there has been no official clarification for Sacha, its easy to
> figure she's a crazy hand increasing machine.
Wouldn't that be insanely broken? Are you just trying to make some obtuse
point about card text or do you really think it would be balanced for any
vampire to increase your hand size permanently by at least 2-3 cards
(probably more) every time around the table?
It's okay to apply a little common sense once in a while.
And for the record, Washington should most certainly not be abreviated as
Wash. For one thing, it just shouldn't. For another thing, if it were,
some nimrod would be posting on here about how Sascha shouldn't contest
titles with Marcus Vitel because Marcus is prince of Washington, D.C. and
Sascha is archbishop of Wash.
Matt Morgan
resident of wshngtndc
In message <1104857911....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Raille <rai...@yahoo.com> writes:
>So card text that tells me to draw, but not discard is not clear
>enough????
Theft of Vitae tells you to steal blood, but doesn't tell you to remove
the excess. That's handled by the standard rules on blood, capacity and
stealing blood.
Ditto hand size.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:fwJZqOHz...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <1104857911....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Raille <rai...@yahoo.com> writes:>>So card text that tells me to draw, but not discard is not clear
>>enough????>
> Theft of Vitae tells you to steal blood, but doesn't tell you to remove
> the excess. That's handled by the standard rules on blood, capacity and
> stealing blood.
>
For more examples of an abscence of reminder text that blood in excess of
capacity drains off, see every Master: archetype card. These cards don't
allow a vampire to hold blood in excess of capacity... the corrolary would
be that Sascha doesn't allow its controller to hold cards in excess of hand
size.
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:46:15 GMT, "David Zopf" <david...@snet.net>
scrawled:
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Barrens [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, Sabbat:C, SW:PB/PL, CE:PV]
Cardtype: Master
*Master: unique location.*
You may tap this card to discard a card from your hand.
Oh no! -1 hand size forever!!11 if only it had errata on the ERC page
to make it better....
(sorry, i'm being a bit of a git now..)
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message
news:2005010416...@eris.io.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sorry, I was unclear. Meant, Wash. D.C. for the full abrev. I managed to
shorten it further.
Common sence is good, but printed text is better. Since some people don't
seem to have any.
And like you say it could be broken, although after a few turns and a hand
size of 25, most people would be so frustrated
By the unmanagable size of their hand they wouldn't play Sacha again. :)
And the Point is adding a clarification to the clarifications on the web
page is something I can easily manage to load on my
laptop and take with me gaming, which I do alot. When some one argues about
some card or rule, I have the anwers readily available.
This limits are arguements about a card, rule or erata to a minute or so,
and its normally resolved and we move on.
Raille
"Raille" <rai...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105008881.8f548cb2e6a6896c6f53609e5f86f5fa@teranews...
> And the Point is adding a clarification to the clarifications on the web
> page is something I can easily manage to load on my
> laptop and take with me gaming, which I do alot. When some one argues
about
> some card or rule, I have the anwers readily available.
Feel free to take one of those paper rulebooks too. So that when
someone argues about a rule, you can have answers readily available.
Or download a copy to your laptop along with the e/r/c.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:344rtiF...@individual.net...
> "Raille" <rai...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1105008881.8f548cb2e6a6896c6f53609e5f86f5fa@teranews...>> And the Point is adding a clarification to the clarifications on the web
>> page is something I can easily manage to load on my
>> laptop and take with me gaming, which I do alot. When some one argues> about>> some card or rule, I have the anwers readily available.>
> Feel free to take one of those paper rulebooks too. So that when
> someone argues about a rule, you can have answers readily available.
>
> Or download a copy to your laptop along with the e/r/c.
>
I'll get this completed soon. Its about the only item I have not downloaded
to the laptop.
Raille