What's the big deal? (Sabbat)

I'm sure that a lot of people are going to jump down my throat for this, because I seem to be going against the overwhelming sentiment of the group, but I'm going to say it anyway. I've been lurking on this newsgroup for some time now, and from the posts I've seen re- garding the upcoming Sabbat expansion, I've just got to ask one question: What on *earth* is everybody so upset about? I've been a fan of V:TM and Jyhad for some time now, and I for one appreciate the assiduousness with which WotC has attempted to flesh out the WoD in the previous two expansions. Granted, some de- cisions were made that were probably ill-advised (do any of us *really* need boxes of Praxis Seizure: Londons?). On the whole, though, I feel that WotC has made the game interesting and fluid. Now, the Sabbat is upon us, and complaints about underpowered cards and vampires, es- calation, and such have become even more ubiquitous than they usually are. What do we make of all this? Personally, I feel that 90% of this discourse is overheated nonsense. Yes, Shotgun Ritual lets you play 2nd round thaumaturgy strikes first round, and yes, Eldritch Glimmer does a heckuva lot of damage, but at what cost? Gobs and gobs of blood. You can pump all the blood you want into that superpowered strike, but you better hope that your opponent doesn't slap down a Majesty, or worse, send you to torpor (let's not even consider what Protean, Quietus, or agg. damage in general can do). Yes, Thoughts Betrayed precludes this possibility, but *geez* do you realistically plan to spend that much blood? If you do, you can plan on changing your strategy very soon. All of this speculation assumes that you have a large cap. vampire that can pull all of this off-no Roreca Quaids need apply. What about Tzimice, you ask? What about them? Most of their strikes are quite impressive, granted, but they come at a hefty cost. The NL environment of Jyhad prevents the Tzimisce, Tremere, etc. from outright dominance. For every daunting strike you attempt to execute, you must contend with the possibility of a S:CE. Malkavians? Hope you can catch them with their stealth. Giovanni? You better be able to contend with the spirits, or prevent them from beating the crap out of you? Nosferatu? See Malks and Giovanni above. The list goes on and on. How about Walk through Arcadia? Keep in mind two things: 1. it's rare, and 2. It's Antitribu-specific (I think). Without Dominate, the Sabbat Malks need all the help they can get. And even if the card isn't antitribu-specific, how many people are seriously going to assem- ble a deck with 10 of these things? If someone tries, they seriously need to reexamine their life. As for the rest-+1 on tham. strikes, Ian Forestal, Gangrel with dom., whatever-the verdict will be the same. The fundamental balance of the game remains untouched. A well-constructed Ventrue vote deck will have a fair shot at beating a revved-up Tremere Sabbat deck with pretty new strike cards any day of the week. Frankly, I'm not too worried. So buy your new Sabbat decks and enjoy the game, for chrissakes. If this new expansion is too much for you, then pick up your cards and cry in the corner. The rest of us who take this game less seriously will get along just fine. -- Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu) http://www.amherst.edu/~esmanch "Come...dry your eyes, for you are life, rarer than a quark and unpredictable beyond the dreams of Heisenberg; the clay in which the forces that shape all things leave their fingerprints most clearly." -Alan Moore, "The Watchmen"

In article <558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>, ERIC SCOTT MANCH <esm...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote: > Personally, I feel that 90% of this discourse is overheated >nonsense. Yes, Shotgun Ritual lets you play 2nd round thaumaturgy >strikes first round, and yes, Eldritch Glimmer does a heckuva lot of >damage, but at what cost? Gobs and gobs of blood. You can pump >all the blood you want into that superpowered strike, but you better >hope that your opponent doesn't slap down a Majesty, or worse, send >you to torpor (let's not even consider what Protean, Quietus, or agg. >damage in general can do). Yes, Thoughts Betrayed precludes this >possibility, but *geez* do you realistically plan to spend that much >blood? If you do, you can plan on changing your strategy very soon. >All of this speculation assumes that you have a large cap. vampire >that can pull all of this off-no Roreca Quaids need apply. Well, it's not difficult to get large vampires out, and all you need is taste of vitae to make up the blood loss. Very difficult combo. > How about Walk through Arcadia? Keep in mind two things: 1. >it's rare, and 2. It's Antitribu-specific (I think). Without Dominate, Woa. You're using the rarity of the card as your primary justification for it's power? And according to WoTC's faq, it it's for all Malkavians. And even if it was, there are plenty of other ways to raise bleed (e.g. the card that destroys your vampire if succesufll, and adds his capacity to the bleed. fairly easy to get an unblockable bleed of more than 10 points). This card also totally eliminates one of the primary methods of dealing with a bleed deck, stealth card hand jam. All of a sudden whether or not you oust your prey comes down to a simple coin flip. Shit, even paper scissors rock is better than that! >the Sabbat Malks need all the help they can get. And even if the card >isn't antitribu-specific, how many people are seriously going to assem- >ble a deck with 10 of these things? If someone tries, they seriously >need to reexamine their life. As for the rest-+1 on tham. strikes, Ian Why? Why not play with cards that let you live? Why not have a set without broken cards so that you can play with anything? Do you like the idea of a restricted/banned list? Don't you think it's possible to do a good job? >Forestal, Gangrel with dom., whatever-the verdict will be the same. The >fundamental balance of the game remains untouched. A well-constructed >Ventrue vote deck will have a fair shot at beating a revved-up Tremere >Sabbat deck with pretty new strike cards any day of the week. Frankly, Really? You don't think rush/thoughts betrayed is a problem? >I'm not too worried. So buy your new Sabbat decks and enjoy the game, >for chrissakes. If this new expansion is too much for you, then pick >up your cards and cry in the corner. The rest of us who take this game >less seriously will get along just fine. Frankly, you don't need to be so offensive. People have right to complain about a sorry job, and not just to live with it. If you can't understand how broken these (and certain older) cards make the game, you don't need to be pissy about it. Regardless of whether you take your games seriously (I don't, there's nothing wrong if you do. Although most multiplayer games play better if everyone _tries_ to win), it is more fun to play a better game; some games get better with each expansion, apparently some get worse. >Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu) -Jasper -- /\ Jasper Phillips (Pit Fiend) ______,....----, /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|==================="""""""""""" ___,..-' `^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|======================----------"""""" \/ http://www.cs.orst.edu/~philljas/

In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, Jasper Phillips <phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU> wrote: >In article <558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>, [Sabbat -- Not to worry elided] >Well, it's not difficult to get large vampires out, and all you need >is taste of vitae to make up the blood loss. Very difficult combo. I hesitate to point out that with the plethora of Dodges, Combat Ends, and Damage Prevention in the cardset (even before Sabbat), there may not be, in fact, very much Vitae to Taste. >> How about Walk through Arcadia? Keep in mind two things: 1. >>it's rare, and 2. It's Antitribu-specific (I think). Without Dominate, > >Woa. You're using the rarity of the card as your primary justification >for it's power? And according to WoTC's faq, it it's for all Malkavians. >And even if it was, there are plenty of other ways to raise bleed (e.g. >the card that destroys your vampire if succesufll, and adds his capacity >to the bleed. fairly easy to get an unblockable bleed of more than 10 >points). This card also totally eliminates one of the primary methods >of dealing with a bleed deck, stealth card hand jam. All of a sudden >whether or not you oust your prey comes down to a simple coin flip. Shit, >even paper scissors rock is better than that! While I agree that rarity is not a valid argument to justify a card's power (the only major, to my mind, flaw with the Sabbat and, to a lesser extent, Ancient Hearts), Walk's not as gross a way to render things unblockable as some others in the cardset. Not that that justifies it either. Ever since the original set, Unblockable Bleed has been feasible (without leaving the Jyhad set, Tremere with Fortitude DayOp/Chantry or Ventrue DayOp/ FreakDrive/RapidHealing/FreakDrive/Restoration is quite bad already), and has been made easiear with each expansion -- Dark Sovs brought Horrific Countenance, Ancient Hearts brought Return to Innocence (which, by the way, I support the fix for: "This action may not be modified." Shuts down the Etrii deck right there. But I digress). By comparison, Walk through Arcadia seems downright mild. There's no 50% chance of failure with DayOp. Is a 50% failure rate an acceptable tradeoff for a 100% go to torpor rate? An open question. Note that AntiMalk don't shape up, with Dementation, as a bleed deck primarily, but more a resource ravage deck -- hose allies, hose vampires, without combat (or at least with nonstandard combat). Coma's gross on first view, but with a well-designed deck, you either hate combat and can usually avoid it, or you love combat and usually outfight it. And if you can't sometimes, then hey. That just means it's a viable card. >Why? Why not play with cards that let you live? Why not have a set without >broken cards so that you can play with anything? Do you like the idea >of a restricted/banned list? Don't you think it's possible to do a good >job? Tha Sabbat's far from perfect -- I'm going over the spoiler list and the 5 packs I've got today, and I'll make a longer post before Friday to detail my thoughts on the matter. My gut feeling is that it poses no greater threat to the game than Ancient Hearts, which is to say, it's nontrivially crocked, BUT: by fixing the 10 to 15 percent trouble cards, the set becomes a worthwhile addition. What was really, REALLY bad about AH? Return to Innocence. Modulo that and the piss-poor job done on Serpentis (Form of Corruption should have been an uncommon, and Tongue of the Serpent is just garbage), the set is quite nice. But I digress, again. It *IS* possible to do a good job, and the Sabbat's not quite there, agreed. But Gehenna it ain't. People are overreacting. Mind you, they're underreacting as well, albeit with less volume. >Really? You don't think rush/thoughts betrayed is a problem? I know *I* don't. I'm regarded, in my own group, as a premier deckbuilder. I can't make a combat deck that abuses Thoughts Betrayed. I've tried. I've made decks that have been regarded as borderline degenerate, currently the Golfball deck (so many Dimples!) that breeds 2point Obfuscating weenies in disgusting quantity. But I can't make the dreaded eeevil Thoughts Betrayed deck. And I haven't seen one posted. >Frankly, you don't need to be so offensive. People have right to complain >about a sorry job, and not just to live with it. If you can't understand >how broken these (and certain older) cards make the game, you don't >need to be pissy about it. Regardless of whether you take your games >seriously (I don't, there's nothing wrong if you do. Although most >multiplayer games play better if everyone _tries_ to win), it is more >fun to play a better game; some games get better with each expansion, >apparently some get worse. He wasn't being *that* offensive; c'mon. Sabbat's a substandard job (who did they let loose on the vampire background graphic design, what was he or she on, and where can I get some?), but some areas are just beautiful; if the whole job had been done as nicely as Fortitude was handled in Sabbat, it would have been perfect. gomi -- 'spend a day and a half dead and the lettuce runs amok.' -babs woods

ERIC SCOTT MANCH <esm...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote in article <558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>... (snip) > Personally, I feel that 90% of this discourse is overheated > nonsense. Yes, Shotgun Ritual lets you play 2nd round thaumaturgy > strikes first round, and yes, Eldritch Glimmer does a heckuva lot of > damage, but at what cost? Gobs and gobs of blood. You can pump > all the blood you want into that superpowered strike, but you better > hope that your opponent doesn't slap down a Majesty, or worse, send > you to torpor (let's not even consider what Protean, Quietus, or agg. > damage in general can do). Yes, Thoughts Betrayed precludes this > possibility, but *geez* do you realistically plan to spend that much > blood? If you do, you can plan on changing your strategy very soon. > All of this speculation assumes that you have a large cap. vampire > that can pull all of this off-no Roreca Quaids need apply. The reason you don't see cards like this as a problem is your not seeing how they will work in conjuction with other cards. The TB, SR, EG combo seems prohibitively expensive until the Tremere plops down a Taste of Vitae after it and refills himself. 5th tradition and Giants Blood can also help with the high cost. In a well designed deck the high cost won't be a factor much of the time. > What about Tzimice, you ask? What about them? Most of their > strikes are quite impressive, granted, but they come at a hefty cost. > The NL environment of Jyhad prevents the Tzimisce, Tremere, etc. from > outright dominance. For every daunting strike you attempt to execute, > you must contend with the possibility of a S:CE. Malkavians? Hope > you can catch them with their stealth. Giovanni? You better be able > to contend with the spirits, or prevent them from beating the crap out > of you? Nosferatu? See Malks and Giovanni above. The list goes on > and on. Again you haven't looked carefully enough at all the cards. There is a Tzimice vamp that pays 1 less blood to play any vicissitude card. Another (a 7 cap for petes sake) doesn't have to pay anything to play combat cards. So much for high cost. The Malks? HA! Rush them straight to hell. The Giovanni? Blood of Acid will fix them. Same goes for the Nosferatu. > How about Walk through Arcadia? Keep in mind two things: 1. > it's rare, and 2. It's Antitribu-specific (I think). Without Dominate, > the Sabbat Malks need all the help they can get. And even if the card > isn't antitribu-specific, how many people are seriously going to assem- > ble a deck with 10 of these things? If someone tries, they seriously > need to reexamine their life. The rarity of a card is a non point. Somebody depraved enough will still get 10 if they want. Who cares if it is Antitribu-specific or not. As for the Antitribu not haveing Dom: Have you ever heard of Return to Innocence. WtA + RTI = BROKEN. There are a lot of people with no life that make degenerate decks. A lot of them. > As for the rest-+1 on tham. strikes, Ian > Forestal, Gangrel with dom., whatever-the verdict will be the same. The > fundamental balance of the game remains untouched. A well-constructed > Ventrue vote deck will have a fair shot at beating a revved-up Tremere > Sabbat deck with pretty new strike cards any day of the week. Frankly, > I'm not too worried. So buy your new Sabbat decks and enjoy the game, > for chrissakes. If this new expansion is too much for you, then pick > up your cards and cry in the corner. The rest of us who take this game > less seriously will get along just fine. The balance has been broken with Sabbat. Maybe you aren't worried know, but you will be when you see what can be done when you exploit some of these cards to the fullest extent. As for a well constructed Ventrue vote deck taking on the Tremere: There was a time when it was possible, but that time is long passed. Steve Bucy

Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote in article <559245$j...@shellx.best.com>... > In article <01bbc6a4$65bad5a0$aa166bc7@tom>, > Steven Bucy <tb...@lainet.com> wrote: > >ERIC SCOTT MANCH <esm...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote in article > ><558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>... > > [Sabbat -- No big Deal elided] > > >The reason you don't see cards like this as a problem is your not seeing > >how they will work in conjuction with other cards. The TB, SR, EG combo > >seems prohibitively expensive until the Tremere plops down a Taste of Vitae > >after it and refills himself. 5th tradition and Giants Blood can also help > >with the high cost. In a well designed deck the high cost won't be a factor > >much of the time. > > Let's see. Bum's Rush/Thoughts Betrayed/Shotgun Ritual/Eldritch Glimmer. > That's 5 blood right out the gate. This means Etrius himself can do > 10R damage by emptying himself out and using a 4card combo; smaller > vamps go down to 5R damage from a 6pointer. This is versus, what? > Bum's Rush/Thrown Sewer Lid/Blur/TSL/TSL. 9R damage for 1 blood, > a 5 card combo requiring 1 regular and 1 superior discipline (the thaum > stuff really wants superior Dom and Thaum). > > Seems to me that the problem isn't Shotgun Ritual and Eldritch Glimmer, > but Thoughts Betrayed -- and that's more of an elegance than a power > issue, since I've made many failed attempts at abusing Thoughts Betrayed > in a Tremere deck. Tremere combat is card intensive, not in the sense > of Celerity/Potence, where 12 Flashes, 12 Blurs, and 12 Undead Strengths > will serve you quite nicely, but in the sense that you need so many > different cards that you can't put in enough of each to reliably get them. > The ugly, evil Thaum combos all are 4, 5, 6, and more cards in length, and > notoriously fragile if one of them misses their appointment. There is truth in this argument. The problem with Sabbat may not be in Sabbat itself but in the combination of Sabbat with previous broken cards. Without TB Shotgun Ritual just makes the Tremere another nasty (but more risky) first round combat clan. Without TB you could S:CE, dodge or play damage prevention. Without TB things would not be broken. As for card intensive combos: You just need to find the right balance and you will be able to pull off 4 card combos very frequently. > >Again you haven't looked carefully enough at all the cards. There is a > >Tzimice vamp that pays 1 less blood to play any vicissitude card. Another > >(a 7 cap for petes sake) doesn't have to pay anything to play combat cards. > >So much for high cost. The Malks? HA! Rush them straight to hell. The > >Giovanni? Blood of Acid will fix them. Same goes for the Nosferatu. > > The Giovanni have SCE/dodge, and will be wise to make good use of it. > The 7cap Tzimisce has no justification; he's wretched through and through. > Malks of either tribe are quite combat-resilient, with Obedience and Obfuscate > dodges. The example given talked about the Giovanni beating the Tzimisce in combat, not avoiding it with S:CE (a better idea). Dragos needs to be banned... > >The rarity of a card is a non point. Somebody depraved enough will still > >get 10 if they want. Who cares if it is Antitribu-specific or not. As for > >the Antitribu not haveing Dom: Have you ever heard of Return to Innocence. > >WtA + RTI = BROKEN. There are a lot of people with no life that make > >degenerate decks. A lot of them. > > There's lots of ways to make actions unblockable. The problem's with RtI, > not WtA. WtA's a little bit lamer than DawnOp, from the much- (and rightly-) > lauded original set. The problem with WtA is that it cheap with no major drawbacks. DayOp would make you unblockable, but has the little side effect of leaving you in torpor. This was a big risk much of the time. It is very inconvienent to use DayOp and have your rescue blocked... WtA doesn't have any risky penalty and has a 50% shot of being as devastating. If it fails you can just try again next turn... > >The balance has been broken with Sabbat. Maybe you aren't worried know, but > >you will be when you see what can be done when you exploit some of these > >cards to the fullest extent. > > I disagree. Feel free to... > >As for a well constructed Ventrue vote deck taking on the Tremere: There > >was a time when it was possible, but that time is long passed. > > As above. We shall see... Steve Bucy

ERIC SCOTT MANCH wrote: > I'm sure that a lot of people are going to jump down my throat for > this, because I seem to be going against the overwhelming sentiment > of the group, but I'm going to say it anyway. I've been lurking on > this newsgroup for some time now, and from the posts I've seen re- > garding the upcoming Sabbat expansion, I've just got to ask one > question: What on *earth* is everybody so upset about? Thanks, Eric ... allow another lurker to be someone who DOESN'T try to bleed you through your tonsils! In fact, I'll probably do a major venom deflection in my own direction. In my short time playing V:tES (and very long time as a gamer), it seems to me that there are three kinds of players, and this actually applies to pretty much all the CCG's, although the arguments tend to get bloodier here than elsewhere. First, there are the TOURNAMENT PLAYERS and WANNABEES. They tend to own boxes and boxes of cards, and spend a great deal of money buying individual power cards and many duplicates, so they see little fun in any card limit games. They delight in disputing the rules, tend to be very conservative about changes in the game, and tend to play for blood (uhhh, bad choice of words!). They are also probably the best players, have the most serious attitude toward gaming, and do a great deal to keep the game companies on the "straight and narrow". These folks join a long tradition of serious chess, bridge, and wargame players. Secondly, there are the FUN or PARTY PLAYERS. They tend to own far fewer cards, and probably play many different games, both CCG and others. As a result, they see CL games as a protection against the "big guys", but the issue isn't a big one with them. Most of their sessions include at least a neonate or two, so they often tend to interpret rules simply and liberally, with lots of informal agreements, which makes the rule lawyers crazy! They like it when the game companies make changes and add concepts, and are anxious to try new things. These folks tend to come out of the non-CCG card and board games world, tend to be a bit older, and may have even gotten turned on to games by playing with their kids. Thirdly, there are the STORYTELLER or AESTHETIC PLAYERS and COLLECTORS. They tend to have lots of cards, read many articles on the background of the game, are fans of the artwork, and tend to play a small group of games, usually theme-based like Sci-Fi, Horror, Anime, etc. They also tend to like games with card limits, and in fact some even like to play closed deck or modified closed deck games. They tend to play with others of their kind, their constructed decks are virtually always theme decks, and they are known to omit certain powerful cards from their decks because "a Toreador wouldn't do anything that plebean, and besides the picture on the card doesn't fit my theme". This drives the serious players absolutely malky! They also tend to like to continue a running commentary on what "actually has happened in the story" when they play a card. These folks usually have a background in D&D or other RPG's, and also tend to write lots of articles, stories, and are frequently Internet afficianados. The problem is that while these 3 kinds of folks seldom encounter each other playing the game, they run into each other (violently!) in the newsgroup, and don't realize they are playing three different games. Perhaps WoTC should publish more sets of alternate rules to appeal to these different types of players. Individual players do indeed rewrite the rules and come up with some great games. -- Paul J. Lareau - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [POST] 135 E. Viking Dr. #301, Little Canada MN 55117 USA [HOME PAGE] http://www.wavefront.com/~pjlareau/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Yet another lurker joining in, perhaps this should be the lurker string? :-) I think Paul hit upon an excellent observation with his three types of players... > First, there are the TOURNAMENT PLAYERS and WANNABEES. They tend to [snip] > Secondly, there are the FUN or PARTY PLAYERS. They tend to own far [snip] > Thirdly, there are the STORYTELLER or AESTHETIC PLAYERS and COLLECTORS. They tend to It seems the most energetic discussion items often have an element of: "This won't work in a tournament" vs. "It works in our play group" which is type 1 vs. type 2. (no reference to the M:tG concepts of the same name intended!!!) or "This makes sense in the WoD" vs. "It doesn't work in the card game" or vice versa which is type 3 vs. type 1/2. I think most of the discussions about 'broken' cards and CL tend to be of great importance to those who want equitable tournament footing, but are of much less importance to the other types of players. The weekly group in Worcester, MA in which I play tends to be a type 2 group. I don't think I've seen TB played once, and I'm the only player who ever plays with AI or ToR, and then with only one copy. We have a lot of fun, and I don't have any reason to believe that Sabbat will ruin our fun, and it may enhance it. Cheers, George

Paul J. Lareau (pjla...@mmm.com) wrote: : In my short time playing V:tES (and very long time as a gamer), it seems to me that : there are three kinds of players, and this actually applies to pretty much all the : CCG's, although the arguments tend to get bloodier here than elsewhere. : First, there are the TOURNAMENT PLAYERS and WANNABEES. They tend to own boxes and [snip] : Secondly, there are the FUN or PARTY PLAYERS. They tend to own far fewer cards, and [snip] : Thirdly, there are the STORYTELLER or AESTHETIC PLAYERS and COLLECTORS. They tend to [snip] I think this is an interesting point, though I would draw the lines somewhat differently (or I think I would--much of your post was hard to read because it runs off the side--a friendly suggestion: hit return every 70 characters or so :-). With Jyhad/V:tES, there seems to be the Tourney players (who doubtless love Sabbat), the Purists (the majority of the heavy posters on this newsgroup), who were drawn to the original Jyhad by the incredibly elegant design. These folks, obviously, hate the new expansions, especially Sabbat. The Storytellers (like myself) are probably split--I happen to like Sabbat, mainly because I could never imagine constructing a deck to abuse the spirit of the game--it's not worth it to me, and I won't play with people who do. A game of jyhad is a story to me, having gotten into Jyhad through Vampire: the Masquerade. (this is the big reason I hate Malk S&B decks--it strikes me as totally antithetical to the notion of what the Malkavians are.) Thus, I'm not offended by some change in the balance of vampires-- I will still use many of the obsolete vamps. I'm not going to replace all my Cam. clans with Sabbat clans just because of an extra discipline or two--I don't see the two as interchangeable. Sometimes I want to play a Camarilla deck, sometimes I don't. I also don't like the idea of packing my crypt with 6 copies of one vampire and six copies of another--I like to be surprised (maybe this is why I don't win very often, right Juan? Eric?) Frankly, I look forward to playing a Sabbat deck (especially my favorite clan from the RPG--the Tzimisce), and not because of escalation, but because I think the Sabbat are an incredibly cool sect. That said, I think your point was right on. -c -- Colin Bunnell "If I were a good man, cbun...@lynx.neu.edu I'd understand the spaces cbun...@slaw.neu.edu between friends." -PF

Colin J Bunnell (cbun...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote: : Sometimes I want to play a Camarilla deck, sometimes I don't. : I also don't like the idea of packing my crypt with 6 copies of : one vampire and six copies of another--I like to be surprised : (maybe this is why I don't win very often, right Juan? Eric?) Well, it certainly makes you more fun to play against, Colin. Art

In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) writes: > Well, it's not difficult to get large vampires out, and all you need > is taste of vitae to make up the blood loss. Very difficult combo. Make the deck. Prove it. > fairly easy to get an unblockable bleed of more than 10 > points). This card also totally eliminates one of the primary methods > of dealing with a bleed deck, stealth card hand jam. All of a sudden > whether or not you oust your prey comes down to a simple coin flip. Shit, > even paper scissors rock is better than that! Why not just use DayOp? It leaves you in Torpor, but if you are planning on being BURNED anyway, who cares? It's a Basic set card. Play it on a Ventrue, with Sup. Dominate, and go to town. That's basic set stuff. In short, all this `Broken' stuff is just stuff you could do anyway, it just used the same cards over and over instead of using new and better looking cards. In answer to the upcoming question: Why didn't people make these decks back then? The answer is simple: They did. They also didn't win all the time. Deflections/Rushes/Telepathic Misdirections/Major Boons were found to be an adequate counter to heavy unblockable bleeds of any sort. New cards that make unblockable bleeding *less* reliable (coin flip instead of flat out success) aren't going to change anything. I hope that you will notice that many decks find themselves incapable of achieving Intercepts higher than... say... +1. +2 Stealth can be easily achieved, thus making the action `unblockable'. Once again, these decks don't always win in a NL enviroment. > Why? Why not play with cards that let you live? Why not have a set without > broken cards so that you can play with anything? Do you like the idea > of a restricted/banned list? Don't you think it's possible to do a good > job? There has been a R/B list since time immemorial. Remember using the Succubus Club to transfer full Powerbase: Washingtons to a crosstable ally then stealing the blood off (and doing it again)? Remember Form of Mist, Freak Drive, and the Monocle of Clarity? The job on Jyhad *has* been good. The job on Sabbat is just as good. Prove to me that a card is broken, and I will accept it. You haven't done a good job so far. > Really? You don't think rush/thoughts betrayed is a problem? Nope. It's been... oh... how many months since DS? And has anyone actually made the all-mighty TB deck? I haven't seen one. I have heard many people blathering about obscure long combos, but I have never seen the so-called `well-constructed-deck' with which these combos are supposed to be so easy. And if I ever do see them, then I will suggest the most minimal of fixes... to TB. Without TB, these combos would be a joke, frankly, with them, I'm not sure that they aren't. > >I'm not too worried. So buy your new Sabbat decks and enjoy the game, > >for chrissakes. If this new expansion is too much for you, then pick > >up your cards and cry in the corner. The rest of us who take this game > >less seriously will get along just fine. > > Frankly, you don't need to be so offensive. People have right to complain > about a sorry job, and not just to live with it. If you can't understand > how broken these (and certain older) cards make the game, you don't > need to be pissy about it. Regardless of whether you take your games > seriously (I don't, there's nothing wrong if you do. Although most > multiplayer games play better if everyone _tries_ to win), it is more > fun to play a better game; some games get better with each expansion, > apparently some get worse. Jasper. Please. You whine, prattle, and accuse the creators of one the best games in the world (jyahd) of all kinds of crimes, and then accuse cooler heads of being... rude? You haven't come up with any evidence, so please don't act like your case has been proven. > > >Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu) > > -Jasper Ritaxis

George Herman <sgam...@gis.net> wrote: >I think most of the discussions about 'broken' cards and CL tend to be >of great importance to those who want equitable tournament footing, but >are of much less importance to the other types of players. > >The weekly group in Worcester, MA in which I play tends to be a type 2 >group. I don't think I've seen TB played once, and I'm the only player >who ever plays with AI or ToR, and then with only one copy. We have a >lot of fun, and I don't have any reason to believe that Sabbat will ruin >our fun, and it may enhance it. Your group appears to be like the Mishra's Game factory players. We have a lot of fun with our games and constantly try "experimental" concepts in decks. Yesterday we were having a blast trying out Sabbat decks, and they appeared to be on equal footing with the other decks. Sabbat is a good set and players here have had few complaints. -- Glen McKay (mishra worker)

DOUGDWISE (doug...@aol.com) wrote: : Actually, Colin, his post was displayed normally on my newsreader (yes, I : am on AOL for the newsgroups) and was easy to read. Perhaps different : newsreaders have different quirks, though, so we may all benefit from : using the returns at the ends of our lines. I haven't used a return at : all while composing this article. How does it look on your newsreader? Looks fine. AOL has a newsreader/editor which takes account of that sort of thing, I guess, and inserts returns. Hmm. Still probably a good idea nonetheless--many newsreaders have problems dealing with this sort of situation, and it's generally a good idea to hit return every so often. : Guess as long as I'm on here I should respond to the thread. I haven't : seen any Sabbat cards yet but I ordered two boxes. I must be a : "Tournament Player" or a "Wannabe." ;-)= Not at all...I'm a definite "Storyteller"-type, and I've bought 1.5 boxes. It's how you view the game, not how many cards you buy. I just like to collect them, and I like to have the potential versatility that having a lot of cards provides. : I'll reserve judgement on this : set until I see it but I think I will have to determine both how it plays : as a _Stand Alone_ game and how it works as an expansion for V:tES. Maybe : it is OK on it's own where the vampires' costs are only measured relative : to other Sabbat vamps and the combos only come from the Sabbat cards. Good point. I've intermingled my Sabbat cards (1.5 boxes later, I *still* don't have all the vampires, and I'm missing a fair number of other cards...) with the rest of mine in my folders, but it would be easy enough to pull them out to play a stand-alone game. However, for that, I need a group of people with Sabbat cards in Boston, and I have yet to find a group.) : I am a little disappointed to hear that my main interest in the Sabbat, : the Lasombra, are apparently this sets Sets. I will be trying to make a : deck with them anyway but hope they end up more useful than those : snake-charmers. Oh, I dunno. I think there's definite potential in the Lasombra. Obtenebration is a very versatile discipline--it has some stealth, it has some intercept, some combat ability. I have yet to play it, though, so it's hard to say. The only disappointment I have with the Sabbat in the immediate sense is the absolute stupidity of repacking all those old cards I *really* don't need--I'm about at a point where I could wallpaper my apartment in Blood Dolls. They should have abandoned that stupid "stand-alone" notion--it's not like the supplement is truly stand-alone anyway, since it doesn't even come with a rulebook. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <5590sb$2...@shellx.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) writes: > >In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, >Jasper Phillips <phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU> wrote: >>In article <558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>, Greetings, > >[Sabbat -- Not to worry elided] > >>Well, it's not difficult to get large vampires out, and all you need >>is taste of vitae to make up the blood loss. Very difficult combo. > >I hesitate to point out that with the plethora of Dodges, Combat Ends, and >Damage Prevention in the cardset (even before Sabbat), there may not be, >in fact, very much Vitae to Taste. > Well I think you should look at the rest of the post you're quoting from. Jasper is responding to the original post which posits a situation with Thoughts Betrayed used along with Shotgun Ritual. Regardless of how many Dodges, Combat Ends, and Damage Prevention is in the cardset ,_or_ even in the opponent's hand, there will certainly be much Vitae to Taste if the Thaumaturgist cares to use a big enough strike, which is kind of the idea. Some bad cards seem to be meant for each other, don't they? Doug Dunaway

Greetings to all, In article <559245$j...@shellx.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) writes: > >In article <01bbc6a4$65bad5a0$aa166bc7@tom>, >Steven Bucy <tb...@lainet.com> wrote: >>ERIC SCOTT MANCH <esm...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote in article >><558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>... > >[Sabbat -- No big Deal elided] > >>The reason you don't see cards like this as a problem is your not seeing >>how they will work in conjuction with other cards. The TB, SR, EG combo >>seems prohibitively expensive until the Tremere plops down a Taste of Vitae >>after it and refills himself. 5th tradition and Giants Blood can also help >>with the high cost. In a well designed deck the high cost won't be a factor >>much of the time. > >Let's see. Bum's Rush/Thoughts Betrayed/Shotgun Ritual/Eldritch Glimmer. >That's 5 blood right out the gate. This means Etrius himself can do >10R damage by emptying himself out and using a 4card combo; smaller >vamps go down to 5R damage from a 6pointer. This is versus, what? >Bum's Rush/Thrown Sewer Lid/Blur/TSL/TSL. 9R damage for 1 blood, >a 5 card combo requiring 1 regular and 1 superior discipline (the thaum >stuff really wants superior Dom and Thaum). Actually, I think I'd just use a Cauldron of Blood for 5 damage and then refill with Taste to get back all 5 of the blood I spent. If I have a press I can continue to wipe up the floor with the unfortunate leech in the second round. Or I can just pull its fangs and send it away. Without either I just let it limp home, and my vampire is in the same condition as he was before he started the combat. But I assume that if I am Rushing a vampire I must have a hand capable of taking him to torpor. >gomi > Doug Dunaway

Colin J Bunnell wrote: > > Good point. I've intermingled my Sabbat cards (1.5 boxes later, > I *still* don't have all the vampires, and I'm missing a fair number > of other cards...) My box is missing 35 of the vampires (109 total?). It sounds like we're going to have to do some extensive trading. I was a bit surprised at only 5 vamps per pack. Rares seem to be 2 per pack, and I was somewhat ticked that so many rare duplicates were in the box, while so many others were not...probably just the luck of the draw. But 2 per pack seems a bit low too, given that some other games have 2 per pack with 12-18 card packs, and given that they chose to make 1/3 of the SABBAT pack reprints. There're going to be some REALLY rare things out there. > The only disappointment I have with the Sabbat in the immediate > sense is the absolute stupidity of repacking all those old cards > I *really* don't need--I'm about at a point where I could wallpaper > my apartment in Blood Dolls. They should have abandoned that stupid > "stand-alone" notion--it's not like the supplement is truly stand-alone > anyway, since it doesn't even come with a rulebook. After having pretty much dissected my box, including looking at all reprints, the cards they chose to reprint tend to be the better commons from the previous sets that I have tended to use a lot, and have amassed several copies of. It would be interesting to hear from people who are playing standalone SABBAT (I'm not) if WOTC chose the "right" previous cards to complement the slightly more powerful SABBAT vampires. It would also be interesting to hear from people who have a limited number of previous cards who are integrating their SABBAT and previous decks. I suspect they will be pleased at the cards they got. The people who will be most displeased will be those who have LOTS of earlier commons, especially if they selectively traded. The rule sheet is totally inadequate. The rule lawyers are going to have a field day ... and they need to! IMHO, this new packaging scheme is NOT a keeper, and it gives the impression that this is NOT a standalone, but a big booster. -- Paul J. Lareau pjla...@wavefront.com <----use this address [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <E08E4...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@bbs.cruzio.com> wrote: >In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) writes: > I snipped some stuff I replied to be accident here... my reply to Walk through Arcadia is 7 paragraphs down. > Prove to me that a card is broken, and I will accept it. You haven't >done a good job so far. Prove to me? If there was someway to really do this, I'd try. It's no easier than asking you to prove that the card is balanced. Hardly a fair requirement IMHO. Something has to be absolutely broken (e.g. the old Gangrel untap/repeat bleed) for this to be really done, and even then there are quite a few people who _still_ don't believe it. I'll take one of the easier topics to argue concretely about. The vampires. You don't think the new vampires are better than the old ones? >> Really? You don't think rush/thoughts betrayed is a problem? > > Nope. It's been... oh... how many months since DS? And has anyone >actually made the all-mighty TB deck? I haven't seen one. I have heard many >people blathering about obscure long combos, but I have never seen the >so-called `well-constructed-deck' with which these combos are supposed to be >so easy. Fair enough, I'll try to dig mine up. You don't really need the full combo to be nasty (TB, permanent press, 2nd round strike), but when you do have the extra cards, you burn. no question about it. Unlike other decks, there is absolutely nothing you can do about this Your only hope is to bleed me out of existance (Which is certainly possible). Also, in response to your saying that Walk through Arcadia is no big deal, and is something that's always been possible (I accidently delete it, sorry about that), I disagree as well. I think that Day Op is an effective, fair card. I think Walk in Arcadia does basicly the same thing, but at _far_ less cost (especially considering the Ventrue have a reasonably difficult time getting pepole out of torpor w/o stealth). Also, in the original set, you didn't have the card that added your capacity to your bleed (albiet burning your vampire), another card I think is a little overdone. There are two defenses against this, bleed bounce, and combat rush. You shouldn't have to include bleed bounce in every deck, that's silly. And combat rush isn't effective enough to stop people from pulling this off all, or even most of the time (A deck like this is bound to have ways to try to stay alive) -- and if it did, then combat rush would be too powerfull. In the end, the only defense I see against large suicide bleeds (A bleed for more than half your starting pool that can't be stopped!?) is bleed bounce. That to me is broken (And I don't even play in 4CL). > And if I ever do see them, then I will suggest the most minimal of >fixes... to TB. Without TB, these combos would be a joke, frankly, with them, >I'm not sure that they aren't. Yes. That's been suggested quite a bit. > Jasper. Please. You whine, prattle, and accuse the creators of one the >best games in the world (jyahd) of all kinds of crimes, and then accuse cooler >heads of being... rude? You haven't come up with any evidence, so please don't >act like your case has been proven. Hey, I think the concerns are legitimate, and that the game is escalating. So do a lot of other people. If a "cooler head", which seems to be some one who thinks there is no problem, disagrees, hey, that's fine. If he's rude, he's rude, and I don't see how his opinion, or mine, enter into it. And I don't think my case has been "proven". I've tried to make the points I believe in. Card games are fairly subjective, with randomness and player decision playing large parts -- it's difficult to "prove" anything. I also don't think that saying certain cards are broken, the trend is getting worse, and I prefer to play other games now is whining and prattling. I'm dissatisfied with Jyhad, since I don't think play test was terribly effective. If I don't think the play test was effective, should I be happy? Should I just agree with your POV? Come on. I equate rudeness with a personal attack (prattle, whine), something I don't think I started out with. >> >Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu) >> >> -Jasper > >Ritaxis -Jasper [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <559245$j...@shellx.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) writes: > >In article <01bbc6a4$65bad5a0$aa166bc7@tom>, >Steven Bucy <tb...@lainet.com> wrote: >>ERIC SCOTT MANCH <esm...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote in article >><558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>... > >[Sabbat -- No big Deal elided] > >>The reason you don't see cards like this as a problem is your not seeing >>how they will work in conjuction with other cards. The TB, SR, EG combo >>seems prohibitively expensive until the Tremere plops down a Taste of Vitae >>after it and refills himself. 5th tradition and Giants Blood can also help >>with the high cost. In a well designed deck the high cost won't be a factor >>much of the time. > >Let's see. Bum's Rush/Thoughts Betrayed/Shotgun Ritual/Eldritch Glimmer. >That's 5 blood right out the gate. This means Etrius himself can do >10R damage by emptying himself out and using a 4card combo; smaller >vamps go down to 5R damage from a 6pointer. This is versus, what? >Bum's Rush/Thrown Sewer Lid/Blur/TSL/TSL. 9R damage for 1 blood, >a 5 card combo requiring 1 regular and 1 superior discipline (the thaum >stuff really wants superior Dom and Thaum). Um. The difference is that there is nothing you can do about the first combo. Nothing. Where something as standard as a single Skin of Steel stops the second combo cold. Personally I don't think shotgun ritual is really an important part of the first combo anyway, once you've played thoughts betrayed (This is why I think shotgun ritual's power ends up being moot, because you could just thoughts betray instead, with some sort of press). You second combo is stopped by all maner of common things really: Skin of Steel, maneuver and aggravated damage, S:CE, Immortal Grapple. All of which you can _expect_ to see. Thoughts Betrayed is stopped by _nothing_, and pretty much garuntees your vampire getting burned. True, it's a large combo that it can be difficult to pull of twice immediatly in a row. Still it's over powerfull. Thought's Betrayed, some sort of permanent press, and second round strikes is not really a big combo. and the blood loss is irrelavent, since you can either use stealing strikes, or taste of vitae to get it back. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <55ll4t$e...@engr.orst.edu>, phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) writes: > >In article <E08E4...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@bbs.cruzio.com> wrote: >>In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper >Phillips) writes: >> >> Jasper. Please. You whine, prattle, and accuse the creators of one >the >>best games in the world (jyahd) of all kinds of crimes, and then accuse >cooler >>heads of being... rude? You haven't come up with any evidence, so please >don't >>act like your case has been proven. > >Hey, I think the concerns are legitimate, and that the game is escalating. >So do a lot of other people. If a "cooler head", which seems to be some >one who thinks there is no problem, disagrees, hey, that's fine. If he's >rude, he's rude, and I don't see how his opinion, or mine, enter into it. So let me get this straight: the guy who suggested that people who disagree with his point of view should go and "cry in the corner" is a "cooler head?" One of us needs to take a step back and look at things again. And please don't resort to to that old chestnut about "whining" because someone points out things as flaws that you do not consider to be so. People have different standards and different opinions. I try to respect other points of view because they may turn out to be right and I may be wrong. > >And I don't think my case has been "proven". I've tried to make the points >I believe in. Card games are fairly subjective, with randomness and >player decision playing large parts -- it's difficult to "prove" anything. > >I also don't think that saying certain cards are broken, the trend is >getting worse, and I prefer to play other games now is whining and >prattling. I'm dissatisfied with Jyhad, since I don't think play I have to agree with Jasper here. I may not agree with all his points but I won't say he's whining just because I don't share his concerns. >test was terribly effective. If I don't think the play test was effective, >should I be happy? Should I just agree with your POV? Come on. >I equate rudeness with a personal attack (prattle, whine), something >I don't think I started out with. > >>> >Eric Manch (esm...@unix.amherst.edu) >>> >>> -Jasper >> >>Ritaxis > >-Jasper > Doug Dunaway

Hi Jasper, On 4 Nov 1996, Jasper Phillips wrote: > In article <E08E4...@cruzio.com>, <rit...@bbs.cruzio.com> wrote: > >In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) writes: > > > > Prove to me that a card is broken, and I will accept it. You haven't > >done a good job so far. > > Prove to me? If there was someway to really do this, I'd try. It's no > easier than asking you to prove that the card is balanced. Hardly > a fair requirement IMHO. Something has to be absolutely broken (e.g. > the old Gangrel untap/repeat bleed) for this to be really done, and > even then there are quite a few people who _still_ don't believe it. > Actually, if a card is broken, it's easy to prove. You simply post a deck that shows how it is broken. If people playtest your deck, and their groups slaughter it, then the card probably isn't very broken... > I'll take one of the easier topics to argue concretely about. The vampires. > You don't think the new vampires are better than the old ones? > > >> Really? You don't think rush/thoughts betrayed is a problem? > > > > Nope. It's been... oh... how many months since DS? And has anyone > >actually made the all-mighty TB deck? I haven't seen one. I have heard many > >people blathering about obscure long combos, but I have never seen the > >so-called `well-constructed-deck' with which these combos are supposed to be > >so easy. > > Fair enough, I'll try to dig mine up. You don't really need the full combo > to be nasty (TB, permanent press, 2nd round strike), but when you do have > the extra cards, you burn. no question about it. > > Unlike other decks, there is absolutely nothing you can do about this > Your only hope is to bleed me out of existance (Which is certainly > possible). > So, then, your argument is that the card is broken, even though you routinely loose with a deck designed to make maximum use of the broken card? Please define "broken".... > > And if I ever do see them, then I will suggest the most minimal of > >fixes... to TB. Without TB, these combos would be a joke, frankly, with them, > >I'm not sure that they aren't. > > Yes. That's been suggested quite a bit. > For something like two months now, I have had an open invitation to post a broken Tremere or Thoughts Betrayed deck, or even one that was remotely competitive :) To date, only Nathan has had the strength of conviction to try out his thoery in the crucible of blood that is my game group, and while his deck didn't fair to well, at least he showed some open-mindedness. The offer still stands for TB (anything remotely competitive), however, I can now (courtesy of Sabbat) make a competitive Tremere deck. I still don't see how a broken one can be made though, so if you post a broken Tremere deck, I will try it. Just so you know, the average lifespan of a Methuselah in my group is about six turns, the first ones often drop on turn four... > And I don't think my case has been "proven". I've tried to make the points > I believe in. Card games are fairly subjective, with randomness and > player decision playing large parts -- it's difficult to "prove" anything. > Not so! There have been many instances on this group where cases were proven. Take the Gangrel-Infinate-Loop deck. People simply posted it. You didn't have to take anyones word for anything, all you had to do was build the deck and try it. Instant proof. Algustas *****There are as many opinions as there are experts***** Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Algustas wrote: > On 4 Nov 1996, Jasper Phillips wrote: [re: Proving a card's brokennesss. A Challenge by Design Team to Playtesters] > > Prove to me? If there was someway to really do this, I'd try. It's no > > easier than asking you to prove that the card is balanced. Hardly > > a fair requirement IMHO. Something has to be absolutely broken (e.g. > > the old Gangrel untap/repeat bleed) for this to be really done, and > > even then there are quite a few people who _still_ don't believe it. > Actually, if a card is broken, it's easy to prove. You simply > post a deck that shows how it is broken. If people playtest your deck, > and their groups slaughter it, then the card probably isn't very broken... Not true. A broken card does not necessarily equate to a broken deck and vice-versa. Take Weenie Vote Push. This is a great example of a broken deck without a single broken card. Now take an un-erratad Blythe Candelaria. A broken card, but not really material for a broken deck. Jyhad is not like Magic in that singular cards can be evaluated as broken and have a huge effect on the game world. Jyhad is a game of combos. There is no card like Balance in Jyhad (yet). [snip...] > > And I don't think my case has been "proven". I've tried to make the points > > I believe in. Card games are fairly subjective, with randomness and > > player decision playing large parts -- it's difficult to "prove" anything. > Not so! There have been many instances on this group where cases > were proven. Take the Gangrel-Infinate-Loop deck. People simply posted > it. You didn't have to take anyones word for anything, all you had to do > was build the deck and try it. Instant proof. And where is the broken card in the Infinite Loop? Freak Drive? Force of Will? Or was it the repeated action that made the deck broken? Hard to say, but it remains that broken cards are not necessarily components to broken decks and vice-versa, in Jyhad. As an aside, I _do_ think that Thoughts Betrayed is a broken card, and not because of the power of its effect, but simply because of its effect. Any card that eliminates all the resources at ones disposal (in Jyhad, one's hand), yet allows you to keep your own does not fit the Jyhad paradigm. Thoughts Betrayed is a Magic Card, plain and simple, even though it does have a Jyhad back on it. (For more, see Judith and Mark's Jyhad Page, link available from my page, URL in .sig) [Reply-to:sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu] @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++ # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # P++ C(+++) USX+ N++ !w @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ X++ b++(+++) tv(+)> @#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ e+* PS++@ PE@ z*++?

Algustas <arob...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote in article <Pine.SOL.3.91.961106090538.151C-100000-100000-100000-100000-100000@gladston e.uoregon.edu>... > (Mass snippage) > For something like two months now, I have had an open invitation > to post a broken Tremere or Thoughts Betrayed deck, or even one that was > remotely competitive :) To date, only Nathan has had the strength of > conviction to try out his thoery in the crucible of blood that is my game > group, and while his deck didn't fair to well, at least he showed some > open-mindedness. > The offer still stands for TB (anything remotely competitive), > however, I can now (courtesy of Sabbat) make a competitive Tremere deck. > I still don't see how a broken one can be made though, so if you post a > broken Tremere deck, I will try it. Just so you know, the average > lifespan of a Methuselah in my group is about six turns, the first ones > often drop on turn four... > Again I wonder what you guys are playing that ousts people frequently in four turns.... Anyway as for a winning Thoughts Betrayed deck: Crypt: 3 Mauziz 3 Illiana 2 Elisabetta 2 Etrius 2 Stanislava Library: 4 info highway 4 tomb of ramses III 4 minion tap 6 blood doll 1 eco terrorist 1 arcane library 4 haven uncovered 1 giants blood 1 zoo hunt ground 1 academic hunt ground 14 bums rush 16 claws of the dead 12 thoughts betrayed 6 wake 8 deflection 4 freak drive 4 restoration I don't have the deck with me so I am not sure about the exact numbers of each card in the deck, but you get the idea. I have played this deck 9 times and I believe I have won 5 of the games. The games lost where due to master hand jam... The idea is to get out illiana or Stanislava and Mauziz. If you get Info Highway or ToR go for Stanislava (or Etrius). Put blood dolls on both or Minion tap Mauziz down to 2. Rush your prey with Illiana and play thoughts betrayed and claws. Once you have someone in torpor diablerize with Mauziz. Yank most of the blood Mauziz gains from the diablerie off her. Repeat. If things go well you can get Stanislava (or Etrius), Illiana, Mauziz, and Elisbetta out, and things get really ugly. The wakes and deflections are there is defend against S/B preditor so you don't have to waste time rushing them. This deck is quite effective especially when you get a slow predator. -- Steve Bucy I'd be better off undead... "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar

Hi Steven, Thank you. If I could survive for four turns without a lot of pool loss (only possible in my group if I have a combat predator), then this deck would work. I would still say it's pretty week, and I doubt it would win a game, but at least it wouldn't be a dead dog. I assume you don't mind if I throw some of the master cards out before I try it? One of the things that speeds up our games is the size, there are often seven players, and occasionally eight. So, in a seven player game, if you pass four political actions, which usually happens by turn four, you have hit your prey for 24 pool loss, usually enough to oust him unless he has a blood gain deck, in which case you'll get him on turn five. Malkavians typically bleed for five or six every action, Settites only bleed for three to five. Bloood dolls are often used in our groups to put precious pool on your minions so they can keep going (always a big risk...) Deflection decks can be a game winner, unless your predator is a vote deck... Anyway, the bane of most combat decks have been combat ends cards, with a huge influx in Immortal Grapples provided by the Sabbat, I expect to see more combat decks that can compete, and that will certainly slow down the games. Unfortunately, I had to cut the deck in order to fit in my response.

[ quoted text not captured ] Please post the political deck that ousts a prey in 4 turns in a seven-player DCI/GT game, especially when (as you suggest) the majority of the decks are massive bleeders or other political decks. If it has a chance to win the game as well, that would be miraculous. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Only XT users know that http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Jan 1, 1980 was a Tuesday. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Hi Scott, On 7 Nov 1996, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > Please post the political deck that ousts a prey in 4 turns in a > seven-player DCI/GT game, especially when (as you suggest) the majority > of the decks are massive bleeders or other political decks. If it has > a chance to win the game as well, that would be miraculous. > My pleasure. Here goes: VAMPIRES: Brujah: Vasillis, Rake Toreador: Delilah Easton, Mariana Gilbert, Ramiel Dupre Ventrue: Itzahk Levine, Roland Loussarian, Gideon Fontaine, Violette Prentiss, Courtland Leighton, Melissa Barton, Jazz Wentworth, Ranjan Rishi MASTERS: 1 x Ventrue Headquarters POLITICAL ACTIONS: 15 x Conservative Aggitation, 15 x Kine Resources Contested, 9 x Praxis Siezure (Frankfurt, Dublin, Amsterdam, Rome, Paris, Monaco, Geneva, Cairo, Berlin) PRESENCE CARDS: 10 x Majesty, 10 x Legal Manipulation, 9 x Bewitching Oration, 9 x Voter Captivation DOMINATE CARDS: 6 x Deflection OTHER CARDS: 6 x Wake with Evenings Freshness Enjoy. This deck doesn't exactly dominate my group or anything, but it definately wins it's share of games. Algustas *****Zunga Zunga! Take 'em down, Comrades*****Casey Jones, Teenage Mutant Ninga Turtles, Eastman & Laird

Algustas <arob...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote: >Hi Steven, > Thank you. If I could survive for four turns without a lot of >pool loss (only possible in my group if I have a combat predator), then >this deck would work. I would still say it's pretty week, and I doubt it >would win a game, but at least it wouldn't be a dead dog. I assume you >don't mind if I throw some of the master cards out before I try it? Hi Algustus, if you want good TB combat deck try it with Euro Brujah Princes TB,Immortal Grapple,Torn Sign Post,Burning Wrath or better yet now Decapitate, with a taste of Vitae.Elder intervention and 2nd tarditons hel[p this also. Errol T

Hi Errol, On 9 Nov 1996, Errol T wrote: > Hi Algustus, if you want good TB combat deck try it with Euro Brujah > Princes TB,Immortal Grapple,Torn Sign Post,Burning Wrath or better yet > now Decapitate, with a taste of Vitae.Elder intervention and 2nd > tarditons hel[p this also. > > Errol T > I have, several times. The Euro Brujah are just way to slow bringing out. I couldn't even attack my first minion until turn 3 or 4. Now when I put smaller Brujah in the deck with it, I can bring them out sooner, and they can do my important early game combats for me, especially using Immortal Grapple and Taste of Vitae. However, my hand is cluttered up with cards I can't use (TB) which could keep me from getting that critical flash card, or blur, etc. So, basically, that deck works better, at least in my group, if I throw out all of the TB and Euro Brujah. Algustas *****A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.***** Max Planck

> My pleasure. Here goes: > > VAMPIRES: Brujah: Vasillis, Rake > Toreador: Delilah Easton, Mariana Gilbert, Ramiel Dupre > Ventrue: Itzahk Levine, Roland Loussarian, Gideon Fontaine, > Violette Prentiss, Courtland Leighton, Melissa Barton, Jazz Wentworth, > Ranjan Rishi > > MASTERS: 1 x Ventrue Headquarters > > POLITICAL ACTIONS: 15 x Conservative Aggitation, 15 x Kine Resources > Contested, 9 x Praxis Siezure (Frankfurt, Dublin, Amsterdam, Rome, Paris, > Monaco, Geneva, Cairo, Berlin) > > PRESENCE CARDS: 10 x Majesty, 10 x Legal Manipulation, 9 x Bewitching > Oration, 9 x Voter Captivation > > DOMINATE CARDS: 6 x Deflection > > OTHER CARDS: 6 x Wake with Evenings Freshness > > Enjoy. This deck doesn't exactly dominate my group or anything, > but it definately wins it's share of games. > Algustas > > wow, and you have fun playing this deck!?!?

Algustas <arob...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote in article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96110...@gladstone.uoregon.edu>... > Hi Scott, > > On 7 Nov 1996, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > > Please post the political deck that ousts a prey in 4 turns in a > > seven-player DCI/GT game, especially when (as you suggest) the majority > > of the decks are massive bleeders or other political decks. If it has > > a chance to win the game as well, that would be miraculous. > > [ quoted text not captured ] Weenie presence vote! I guess that it actually works somewhere... [ quoted text not captured ]

>> My pleasure. Here goes: >> >> VAMPIRES: Brujah: Vasillis, Rake >> Toreador: Delilah Easton, Mariana Gilbert, Ramiel Dupre >> Ventrue: Itzahk Levine, Roland Loussarian, Gideon Fontaine, >> Violette Prentiss, Courtland Leighton, Melissa Barton, Jazz Wentworth, >> Ranjan Rishi >> >> MASTERS: 1 x Ventrue Headquarters >> >> POLITICAL ACTIONS: 15 x Conservative Aggitation, 15 x Kine Resources >> Contested, 9 x Praxis Siezure (Frankfurt, Dublin, Amsterdam, Rome, Paris, > >> Monaco, Geneva, Cairo, Berlin) >> >> PRESENCE CARDS: 10 x Majesty, 10 x Legal Manipulation, 9 x Bewitching >> Oration, 9 x Voter Captivation >> >> DOMINATE CARDS: 6 x Deflection >> >> OTHER CARDS: 6 x Wake with Evenings Freshness >> >> Enjoy. This deck doesn't exactly dominate my group or anything, >> but it definately wins it's share of games. Well, I can see how it'd work but surely everyone you play with will have a counter for it - won't they? You say that you play in an environment where there are other vote decks active: assuming that you don't get an ideal seating position doesn't it have problems: a. getting votes into play (we usually find this the hardest thing for any vote deck to do) b. passing votes when there are others out there who can throw down political cards of their own - not to mention dread gazes, kindred coercion and the rest, and of course if others have titles - which most of yours lack. c. this might be irrelevent if there are no rush decks, but if there are then your 10 majesties would have to be split between attack and defence, weakening the offence. Peter

Hi Karl, On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Karl Innes wrote: [Presence Vote / Majesty / Bleed deck deleted] > > > > wow, and you have fun playing this deck!?!? Yes, why wouldn't I? I assume that your implying it would be no challenge to play, but that isn't the case in my group. This deck does not dominate games, as everyone either has a fast deck, or can deal with a fast deck somehow, either efficient combat (IG instead of TB, as an example) or intercept / deflections. Algustas *****There is no credit to being a comedian, when you have the whole Government working for you. All you have to do is report the facts. I don't even have to exaggerate.***** Will Rogers

Okay why not Malk Dementia Day operation that malk and bleed the owner. Enjoy Bill Gomi no Sensei (go...@best.com) wrote: : In article <558hb8$g...@engr.orst.edu>, : Jasper Phillips <phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU> wrote: : >In article <558avi$e...@tom.amherst.edu>, : [Sabbat -- Not to worry elided] : >Well, it's not difficult to get large vampires out, and all you need : >is taste of vitae to make up the blood loss. Very difficult combo. : I hesitate to point out that with the plethora of Dodges, Combat Ends, and : Damage Prevention in the cardset (even before Sabbat), there may not be, : in fact, very much Vitae to Taste. : >> How about Walk through Arcadia? Keep in mind two things: 1. : >>it's rare, and 2. It's Antitribu-specific (I think). Without Dominate, : > : >Woa. You're using the rarity of the card as your primary justification : >for it's power? And according to WoTC's faq, it it's for all Malkavians. : >And even if it was, there are plenty of other ways to raise bleed (e.g. : >the card that destroys your vampire if succesufll, and adds his capacity : >to the bleed. fairly easy to get an unblockable bleed of more than 10 : >points). This card also totally eliminates one of the primary methods : >of dealing with a bleed deck, stealth card hand jam. All of a sudden : >whether or not you oust your prey comes down to a simple coin flip. Shit, : >even paper scissors rock is better than that! : While I agree that rarity is not a valid argument to justify a card's power : (the only major, to my mind, flaw with the Sabbat and, to a lesser extent, : Ancient Hearts), Walk's not as gross a way to render things unblockable : as some others in the cardset. Not that that justifies it either. Ever : since the original set, Unblockable Bleed has been feasible (without leaving : the Jyhad set, Tremere with Fortitude DayOp/Chantry or Ventrue DayOp/ : FreakDrive/RapidHealing/FreakDrive/Restoration is quite bad already), and : has been made easiear with each expansion -- Dark Sovs brought Horrific : Countenance, Ancient Hearts brought Return to Innocence (which, by the way, : I support the fix for: "This action may not be modified." Shuts down the : Etrii deck right there. But I digress). By comparison, Walk through Arcadia : seems downright mild. : There's no 50% chance of failure with DayOp. Is a 50% failure rate an : acceptable tradeoff for a 100% go to torpor rate? An open question. : Note that AntiMalk don't shape up, with Dementation, as a bleed deck : primarily, but more a resource ravage deck -- hose allies, hose vampires, : without combat (or at least with nonstandard combat). Coma's gross on : first view, but with a well-designed deck, you either hate combat and can : usually avoid it, or you love combat and usually outfight it. And if you : can't sometimes, then hey. That just means it's a viable card. : >Why? Why not play with cards that let you live? Why not have a set without : >broken cards so that you can play with anything? Do you like the idea : >of a restricted/banned list? Don't you think it's possible to do a good : >job? : Tha Sabbat's far from perfect -- I'm going over the spoiler list and the : 5 packs I've got today, and I'll make a longer post before Friday to detail : my thoughts on the matter. My gut feeling is that it poses no greater threat : to the game than Ancient Hearts, which is to say, it's nontrivially crocked, : BUT: by fixing the 10 to 15 percent trouble cards, the set becomes a worthwhile : addition. : What was really, REALLY bad about AH? Return to Innocence. Modulo that : and the piss-poor job done on Serpentis (Form of Corruption should have : been an uncommon, and Tongue of the Serpent is just garbage), the set is : quite nice. But I digress, again. : It *IS* possible to do a good job, and the Sabbat's not quite there, agreed. : But Gehenna it ain't. People are overreacting. Mind you, they're underreacting : as well, albeit with less volume. : >Really? You don't think rush/thoughts betrayed is a problem? : I know *I* don't. I'm regarded, in my own group, as a premier deckbuilder. : I can't make a combat deck that abuses Thoughts Betrayed. I've tried. : I've made decks that have been regarded as borderline degenerate, currently : the Golfball deck (so many Dimples!) that breeds 2point Obfuscating weenies : in disgusting quantity. But I can't make the dreaded eeevil Thoughts Betrayed : deck. And I haven't seen one posted. : >Frankly, you don't need to be so offensive. People have right to complain : >about a sorry job, and not just to live with it. If you can't understand : >how broken these (and certain older) cards make the game, you don't : >need to be pissy about it. Regardless of whether you take your games : >seriously (I don't, there's nothing wrong if you do. Although most : >multiplayer games play better if everyone _tries_ to win), it is more : >fun to play a better game; some games get better with each expansion, : >apparently some get worse. : He wasn't being *that* offensive; c'mon. Sabbat's a substandard : job (who did they let loose on the vampire background graphic design, : what was he or she on, and where can I get some?), but some areas are just : beautiful; if the whole job had been done as nicely as Fortitude was handled : in Sabbat, it would have been perfect. : gomi : -- : 'spend a day and a half dead and the lettuce runs amok.' : -babs woods

>Algustas wrote: (Karl Innes comments on deck snipped) > Yes, why wouldn't I? I assume that your implying it would be no > challenge to play, but that isn't the case in my group. This deck does > not dominate games, as everyone either has a fast deck, or can deal with > a fast deck somehow, either efficient combat (IG instead of TB, as an > example) or intercept / deflections. Well, my reaction (and Alec's) to your deck was that a great majority of the people in our group would be absolutely miserable if anything like that showed up at a table. A lot of the people in our old playgroup dropped out of playing Jyhad before AH. (They started playing Rage. Ick.) Some others who still want to play haven't had the time recently. What happened was that we switched to NL, and picked up a bunch of newbies to go with some experienced players. These are the people we play most. They don't have the knowledge of the game that would be necessary to defeat a similar deck to yours, nor do they have the cards. (We helped with the cards and the deck construction...but to have them use their cards effectively is another matter.) Weenie presence vote would slaughter all but 3-4 people currently playing Jyhad, out of 11. 30% isn't wonderful, and Alec and I play combat decks to give our friends more of an even chance at winning. Between us, games last 3-5 minutes, minus shuffling...we like our quick bleed and/or vote decks, but that's not fun for anyone when we play the new guys. If everyone was able to play at the same level, then the games could be more competitive and more fun. Unfortunately, that might take a while. My question is: How does your playgroup deal with newbies? Do you get very many? How do you get them to a level where they can compete with the others in the group? To Everybody: How do you teach Jyhad strategy to newbies? -Nathan Harada

> My question is: How does your playgroup deal with newbies? Do >you get very many? How do you get them to a level where they can >compete with the others in the group? > To Everybody: How do you teach Jyhad strategy to newbies? Being relatively new to the game myself, I'd really like to hear the answers to these questions. The group that I am in is kinda brutal, but not really unfair in their style of play. They are not abusive players. The only way that I've learned the game is to watch general strategies on the board. To date, I've only won one game in this group. Sorrow -- I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am anymore |-------------------------------- I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...? anymore | you never seen anyone try to I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon ------------------------------------------------------------------------

:1.961107074449.20044A-100000-10...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> <55t376$c...@redwood.cs.sc.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.91.96110...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> <328657...@infomatch.com> <Pine.SOL.3.91.961113191418.3941C-100000-10 :00...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> <328C16...@hula.net> <56ie1b$a...@news.cais.com> Distribution: Sorrow (cbo...@apdi.net) wrote: : > My question is: How does your playgroup deal with newbies? Do : >you get very many? How do you get them to a level where they can : >compete with the others in the group? : > To Everybody: How do you teach Jyhad strategy to newbies? : Being relatively new to the game myself, I'd really like to hear the answers to : these questions. The group that I am in is kinda brutal, but not really unfair : in their style of play. They are not abusive players. The only way that I've : learned the game is to watch general strategies on the board. To date, I've : only won one game in this group. The best way I've found to teach people how to play is by having them watch a game or two before giving them a deck of their own to play. I've tried watching over a newbie's shoulder & tell him what cards he can &/or should play, the basic actions, etc., but ended up playing the deck for him, which is no fun for the newbie. I think it's better to watch first. That way, the experienced players can explain what they're doing as it happens, and newbies can hopefully get some feeling of how the game is played. Therefore, when they get down to playing at last, they should feel comfortable w/ the basics of the game, and proceed from there. : Sorrow : -- : I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am : anymore |-------------------------------- : I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...? : anymore | you never seen anyone try to : I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Keller -- "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them. So now, I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."-Marcus Cole,Babylon 5

Hi Peter, On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, DPH wrote: [Presence vote / bleed deck deleted] > > Well, I can see how it'd work but surely everyone you play > with will have a counter for it - won't they? Well, some people build decks specifically to counter one type of deck, but what if I play a sneak & Bleed, or combat deck? I ususally make three or four decks before we play, so do most other players. Almost all decks have some defence against all of the major strategies, which was my initial point when I started in on this thread, that decks relying on large vampires needed a way to deal with fast decks. > You say that > you play in an environment where there are other vote decks > active: assuming that you don't get an ideal seating position > doesn't it have problems: Absolutely. I never claimed this was an unbeatable deck. Only that it could oust a slow deck in 4 to 5 turns. I maybe win one game in five with a deck like this, which isn't bad, considering we usually have six or seven players. > a. getting votes into play (we usually find this the hardest > thing for any vote deck to do) That's why the majesties are there. If the vampire has superior presence, then untap and try a Legal Manipulation. Vampires are going to get blocked, sometimes they will even get burned. It happens all the time. The point is, your prey can't block without vampires out. And we use a house rule on wakeys that says you must actually try to block or play another reaction card to use a wakey, so people don't have unlimited numbers in their decks. > b. passing votes when there are others out there who can > throw down political cards of their own - not to mention > dread gazes, kindred coercion and the rest, and of course if > others have titles - which most of yours lack. Yep. It's hard. depends on where poeple end up sitting, and what deck they are playing. Since it is a fast environment, vote decks will generally not interfere in votes that happen across the table unless it is a Praxis siezure (they are always opposed), sometimes they will buy off another vote deck by splitting the damage between their prey, and the prey of another vote deck. Sometimes they won't. Just depends on who you are up against. > c. this might be irrelevent if there are no rush decks, but > if there are then your 10 majesties would have to be split > between attack and defence, weakening the offence. > Correct again. A real combat deck will quickly deplete the majesties, or worse, Immortally Grapple me and jam my hand with them. A risk that must be taken, as the deck has to be fast to survive, and it must muscle through it's votes somehow, so more majesties just risk a hand jam if there isn't a combat deck lurking nearby. Algustas *****If brute force doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough***** Cool quote on a battletech card

Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> wrote in article <328C16...@hula.net>... > (snip) > My question is: How does your playgroup deal with newbies? Do > you get very many? How do you get them to a level where they can > compete with the others in the group? > To Everybody: How do you teach Jyhad strategy to newbies? In our group we tend to focus on helping them make a decent, basic deck. I have made decks, given them cards, and preached entire sermons on deck building. Once they have a decent deck we toss them to the wolves. We have a brutal evironment, so they tend to learn strategy and tactics quickly. I made a Ventrue bleed deck for one newbie. He was a very quick at picking up the game. After a couple of losses he started to beat the crap out of us. Eventually he got bored with the deck and made his own. This method seems work for our group. [ quoted text not captured ]

Hi Nathan, On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Nathan Harada wrote: [Presence vote deck and game environment comments cut] > Weenie presence vote would slaughter all but 3-4 people > currently playing Jyhad, out of 11. 30% isn't wonderful, and Alec and > I play combat decks to give our friends more of an even chance at > winning. Between us, games last 3-5 minutes, minus shuffling...we > like our quick bleed and/or vote decks, but that's not fun for anyone > when we play the new guys. > If everyone was able to play at the same level, then the games > could be more competitive and more fun. Unfortunately, that might take > a while. > > My question is: How does your playgroup deal with newbies? Do > you get very many? How do you get them to a level where they can > compete with the others in the group? > To Everybody: How do you teach Jyhad strategy to newbies? > Good question Nathan. When most of our newbies showed up, Jyhad didn't even have an expansion yet, and cards were cheap, but not 20 dollars a box, so we placed group orders with Ed Baine and bought thousands of common cards for just a few bucks, (shipping was more than the cost), and we sold them to newbies for cost. If you are serious about improving the game (at least the card selection) of some of you players, them I suggest ordering a box or two of Jyhad cards, and offering to sell them for cost after they arrive. Algustas *****What would you have me do? Search out some powerful patronage, and be like crawling ivy clinging to a tree? No thank you.***** Cyrano de Bergerac, act II

Nathan Harada writes: > My question is: How does your playgroup deal with newbies? Do >you get very many? How do you get them to a level where they can >compete with the others in the group? We used to get newbies, but not many anymore. We get them to a "competitive level" by plying with them and expalining how decks work. > To Everybody: How do you teach Jyhad strategy to newbies? Normally, we loan them effective but simple decks (S&B, rush combat, intercept combat, heavy vote decks, etc.). I prefer to loan aggressive and transient-oriented decks. Far and away the most common error when people are learning Jyhad is that they overemphasize permanents and defense and underestimate the importance of speed and timing; it helps for them to see the other ways to handle things in Jyhad. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

In article <19961116194...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] This is definately true, but what I find frustrating as an 'old' player of Jyhad, is that; while the newbies pick up the rules of the game quite quickly, it takes them a lot longer to figure out the tactics needed to build decks and play with the decks effectively. This leads to games involving newbies to be onesided if one of us more experianced player is there predator or prey, due to the fact that there decks tend to get crushed quite quickly. This is also frustrating for the newbie as he gets fed up of being crushed time and time again and a lot of encouragement is needed to keep them playing. I always give help when needed and find the best way to decrease this early trauma is to create a deck with the newbie, using his desired clans, and talk him through the design stages of the deck. This normally guarantees a semi-competative deck from the start. Once the newbie has picked up hints and tactics through playing then he can modify or make his own deck as required, hell he may even win a few.... LOS