V:TES game transcription

I have been thinking about the necessity of developing a method to translate V:TES games into some kind of written text code (much like the one used in chess, but with a higher complexity, obviously). This way, important games (such as final rounds) could be transcripted and posted on the newsgroup so that everybody could have access to an accurate report on them. I am starting this thread to know your opinion on this issue. On a possitive response, I would like people to post their ideas on this newsgroup so that an agreed code system is developed. I have tried it myself, but the task has proven quite complex, and this is exactly why I request your help. My code system was based on several ideas: 1. The code system should be as simple as possible. 2. The code should be able to transcript game play as accuratedly as possible. 3. The code should reflect the different phases of the game (e.g., untap, master, etc.) 4. The code should reflect the current pool, hand, and any other important general factors at the beginning of each player's turn. 5. Turning both library and crypt card names into acronyms (e.g., Govern the Unaligned = GtU). This an easy task, of course. 6. Making a difference between library and crypt cards, so that they cannot be mistaken for one another. 7. Translating terms regarding the game into ASCII symbols. For example: Sir Walter Nash (SWN) -having 6 blood(6)- plays (:) a superior Govern the Unaligned (>GtU) and replaces that card with a Daring the Dawn ([DtD]). SWN(6) : >GtU [DtD] What do you think about it? Greetings, Damnans

[ quoted text not captured ] Sounds like a great idea. I would recommend using more obvious names (rather than SWN). Since most games will not see anywhere near all the crypt cards nor all the library cards, perhaps a better idea would be to use the full name with a meaningful shorter name when a vampire is played (i.e: "Sir Walter Nash (Nash)"). Similarly for the library cards. The library cards could be done with a deck list at the start of the report which gives the "short name" that will be used for each card. I suppose the crypt could be done that way as well. You might take a look at the JOL game reports to see how this sort of thing has been done already - those reports tend to be more verbose than you're looking for, but may provide some insight. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:29 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: >This way, important games (such as final rounds) could be transcripted >and posted on the newsgroup so that everybody could have access to an >accurate report on them. I like this idea, but feel compelled to point out that finding someone to actually DO the transcription is going to be a real bitch. =) Tedium extremis. >I am starting this thread to know your opinion on this issue. sold! What can it hurt? Not to mention that with all the V:TES online client stuff floating around, this sort of thing would translate well into a log format. >On a possitive response, I would like people to post their ideas on this >newsgroup so that an agreed code system is developed. I have tried it >myself, but the task has proven quite complex, and this is exactly why I >request your help. Excruciatingly complex, of course. Largely because of the card names, but also because the attempt to transcribe combat is going to REALLY hurt. >My code system was based on several ideas: > >1. The code system should be as simple as possible. >2. The code should be able to transcript game play as accuratedly as >possible. >3. The code should reflect the different phases of the game (e.g., >untap, master, etc.) This should be #1, probably. Separate the stuff out, it'll make it a lot easier. >4. The code should reflect the current pool, hand, and any other >important general factors at the beginning of each player's turn. This I don't think is quite as important. I like the idea of Nash(6) taking actions, just as a quick reference on each vampire's blood, but trying to get TOO extensively detailed might prove difficult. Perhaps only a brief report at the start of each turn? >5. Turning both library and crypt card names into acronyms (e.g., Govern >the Unaligned = GtU). This an easy task, of course. Actually, the acronyms bother me a bit as not easy to read. After enough acronyms, you end up needing a parser to translate the logs that come out... not so good. >6. Making a difference between library and crypt cards, so that they >cannot be mistaken for one another. with LSJ's action, single-word names for vampires are probably best. "Nash." =) >7. Translating terms regarding the game into ASCII symbols. Extremely painful for any non-automated system. If someone's going to be manually transcribing this, it HAS to be a lot simpler than that. And the worries about ASCII symbols make it less than legible, as well. Are you looking for a format that is newsgroup-readable, or a format that can be fed into a parser and input with a parser (difficult)? > For example: > Sir Walter Nash (SWN) -having 6 blood(6)- plays (:) a superior >Govern the Unaligned (>GtU) and replaces that card with a Daring the >Dawn ([DtD]). > SWN(6) : >GtU [DtD] > >What do you think about it? hypothetical example of how it could look: MethA: Nash(6) Govern-S; MethB: Zoe(3) STouch-S; block announce MethA: Nash(6) DawnOp-I; block successful * combat MethA: Nash(6) no prerange; MethB: Zoe(3) DWeapon-I; 44Magnum; MethA: Nash(6) no maneuvers; MethB: Zoe(3) long, 44Magnum; MethA: Nash(6) strike, Majesty-S; MethB: Zoe(3) strike, 44Magnum; * end combat MethA: Nash(5) KRC; ... and so on. The above is much more readable, and also distinguishable; going by only acronyms would leave Spirit's Touch and Shadow Twin difficult to determine, where STouch and STwin are both equally easy to type, and immediately obvious to the reader. Perhaps go by a "no more than 8 characters in any abbreviation" rule? It occurs to me that there is NO way to accurately transcribe what someone has drawn up to replace any given card, so that part could (must) be left out. This has a nice side benefit of making the transcriber's job a bit easier. Obviously, a certain amount of familiarity with the game is necessary to read a log like this. So, plugging the above action into a turn format... == Turn 3: MethA, 23 pool, 0VP == == Govern, DawnOp, KRC, Majesty, VentrueHQ, BO, VoterCap == [UNTAP] MethA: none; [MASTER] MethA: VentrueHQ; [MINION] *** MethA: Nash(7) Govern-S; MethB: Zoe(3) STouch-S; block announce MethA: Nash(7) DawnOp-I; block successful MethA: Nash(7) no prerange; MethB: Zoe(3) DWeapon-I; 44Magnum; MethA: Nash(7) no maneuvers; MethB: Zoe(3) long, 44Magnum; MethA: Nash(7) strike, Majesty-S; MethB: Zoe(3) strike, 44Magnum; *** MethA: Nash(6) KRC; no block MethA: terms MethB 3, MethC 1; MethA: Nash(6) BO-S; 7 in favor, 0 against MethC: MGilbert(4) DGaze-S; 7 in favor, 4 against MethD: Burn Edge; 7 in favor, 5 against STATE: vote passes 7-5 MethA: Nash(6) VoterCap-S (+2P); [INFLUENCE] MethA: transfer 4 -> Bridges(4); [DISCARD] MethA: none; == End Turn == It clearly separates the five individual phases of the game, and the turns. Each action is set off by the ***. The STATE: notation serves for bits where non-player-specific information needs to happen. The -I and -S are an intuitive notation for "Govern at inferior", etc. The blood counts for each vampire are workable; they can be listed at the start of the action if necessary, and only be updated as blood changes off the vampires, since they do look a bit repetitive. The "semicolon at end of card played", totally stolen of course, is habitual and familiar for many people to look at. It's a bit more typing for whatever poor bastard is stuck transcribing, but really, there isn't any good solution for this. Acronyms are more difficult to type than words, and the "odd" symbols such as > and [] are more difficult to type than simple parentheses, semicolons, etc. well, there's a start. -- Derek

Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:<3B37504A...@ono.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Great idea! I agree it will be a complex system though. Combat would be the worst to transcribe. For example... Example: PAR = Parnassus ST = Spirit's Touch % = combat begins Thin = Thin Blood ScT = Scorpion's Touch Maj = Majesty SWN(6):>GtU PAR(7):<ST % PAR(6)>Thin PAR(5)>ScT SWN(4)>Maj (untaps) And that's just one round without extensive pre-range and manuver battles! I think with some effort we could design a fairly quick transcription code for games, but the list of symbols would be very extensive. Some of my concerns: Should their be an identifier for which Meth is acting? Perhaps number them at the start of the record? Also, would you record table-deals? Is listing what a Meth replaces really necessary? Just some thoughts. Please everyone continue with this idea, it has great potential! Aramis *would love to see more game reports*

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > Sounds like a great idea. I agree. As an avid chess fan, I recognize the utility of this, though it will be much harder with so many variables. Chess games can be re-enacted by simply setting up a chess board and playing along with the notations. Jyhad would not be so easy... First off, let's take some of the already established chess conventions: --------------------------------------- ?? == What the f**k is this player doing? Example: Sir Walter Nash bleeds. Ingrid deflects to prey. Sir Walter adds Daring the Dawn (??) --------------------------------------- ?! == We wondered what the f**k that player was doing too, but it seems to have worked. Example: Sir Walter Nash applies KRC damage; 3 to self, 1 to predator. Emerson calls Parity Shift; applies damage -5 to prey, +5 to self (?!) --------------------------------------- !! == Wow! This guy plays like Wes. Example: Khalil reduces prey's bleed with Ignis Fatuss, causing grand-prey to remain in game. Both prey and grand-prey ousted on next turn. (!!) --------------------------------------- > I would recommend using more obvious names (rather than SWN). > Since most games will not see anywhere near all the crypt cards nor > all the library cards, perhaps a better idea would be to use the full > name with a meaningful shorter name when a vampire is played (i.e: > "Sir Walter Nash (Nash)"). Similarly for the library cards. The > library cards could be done with a deck list at the start of the > report which gives the "short name" that will be used for each card. I > suppose the crypt could be done that way as well. If we're talking about conventions, some are already well-established enough to be obvious. KRC is obviously Kine Resources Contested. I'd keep the full names for the vampires, in fact, I'd recommend boldfacing any cards with their full name or established convention. I guess this is more difficult on the newsgroup, but it does make it appear much more readable... > You might take a look at the JOL game reports to see how this sort of > thing has been done already - those reports tend to be more verbose > than you're looking for, but may provide some insight. Yeah... I think there are only a few moderators still keeping track of Game History right now. Most of them have given up as it is rather time-consuming and annoying, not to mention you can't change it once it's in the system (it just appends to a text file). . The game I am moderating is JOL156 and it is still in progress. I've chosen to be as explicit and verbose as possible rather than using too many abbreviations. This is important because I often neeed to go back and figure out how much blood should be on one vamp etc. It makes things easier for moderating, though for your purposes a different format could be used. Here's the link to the game... go to Game History to see what I am referring to. http://www.deckserver.net/cgi-bin/jolgame.cgi?jol156 Oh, and please ignore my crappy deck. It's an experimental PRO/SER which should have waited for cards from Final Nights :( Cheers, WES

This sounds very similar to how people play the Start Wars CCG over IRC. I think it would be a great idea to be able to get a play-by-play for games. I'd be very willing to help with this project if it does take off. My suggestions: - Don't use abbreviations for cards, it would be too much work creating the table and then more work for the reader to figure it out. - Precede every action with the phase it's associated with so that the reader doesn't lose track of what's going on. I could go on and on in great detail how I would do it (phase abbreviations, action abbreviations, etc.), but I won't unless asked to do so. Hope this helps, Todd Dunn V:EKN prince of Noblesville, IN Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:<3B37504A...@ono.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:29 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: >On a possitive response, I would like people to post their ideas on this >newsgroup so that an agreed code system is developed. I have tried it >myself, but the task has proven quite complex, and this is exactly why I >request your help. >5. Turning both library and crypt card names into acronyms (e.g., Govern >the Unaligned = GtU). This an easy task, of course. This sounds like a great idea! If we do create a standard, I'd be happy to incorporate the acronyms into Monger. ------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin saa...@yahoo.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/

While I like what you are doing. But perhaps the abbrevialtions could use some work ST could equal Spirits Touch or Shock Troops as well as the Scorpion's Touch which you have listed below. Almost any combonation of less than 4 or 5 letters could be misconstrued as something else. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > It's a bit more typing for whatever poor bastard is stuck > transcribing, but really, there isn't any good solution for this. > Acronyms are more difficult to type than words, and the "odd" symbols > such as > and [] are more difficult to type than simple parentheses, > semicolons, etc. Macros are the key to doing anything as massive as recording an entire final round onto a PC. The process would have to be customized, per the individual. But I can see that the entire process could be set up to a very intricate set of macros. Of course you'd either need a training course in using them, specific to this project or to make them yourself. But they could be queued to set up entire actions or sequences with few keystrokes. This means that the person typing will be alot worse for the ware, but also that you don't have to use a billion acronyms for everything. TYPE: "GtU" GET: "Govern the Unaligned" but save a ton of typing. Aaron

In article <82c154eb.01062...@posting.google.com>, XZealot <X_Ze...@email.msn.com> wrote: >While I like what you are doing. But perhaps the abbrevialtions could >use some work ST could equal Spirits Touch or Shock Troops as well as >the Scorpion's Touch which you have listed below. Almost any >combonation of less than 4 or 5 letters could be misconstrued as >something else. Yep, but I do like the idea of metacharacters identifying the type. This helps separate possible overlaps. For instance, using a lowercase m for master helps separate Shock Troops (mST) from Spirit's Touch (<ST). I like the idea of designating all actions with > and all reactions with < (so >GtU, >SoC, and <D, <O for Govern the Unaligned, Seeds of Corruption, Deflection, and Obedience respectively). A partial catalog of symbols: : Target of an effect. Goes between effect's source and target. m Master Card (mSTI, -1P) [Short Term Investment] m- Master Phase Action (Cardless) (m-STI, +1P) [Draws 1 pool off Short Term Investment] O Out of Turn Master. OSR, ODI, and ORot are all likely to be popular codes. P Pool shift, preceded with a positive or negative integer B Blood on vampire shift, preceded with a postive or negative integer. Also used for allies. u Untap phase event (uZHG:Rav+1B) [Raven gains 1 blood from Zoo Hunting Ground] m; Master phase event (m;BD, CDv-1B, +1P) [Move 1 blood from Camille Deveraux to pool via Blood Doll] E Minion phase event (non-action) (ET:Wyn) [Activate Temptation to take control of Wynn] b Burn a card in play (RvD:bGD) [Ricki van Demsi burns Guard Duty to untap and attempt to 'bock'] d Discard phase event (could be a discard or something you do during your discard phase) (dbSOv) [During the discard phase, burn Sensory Overload on a minion] Compare to dSOv, which would be discarding Sensory Overload in your discard phase. ~ Tap a card for some effect. Specify target, if any, after a colon. (~LES:GiV) [Tapping London Evening Star to give Giuliano Vincenzi +1 intercept] Vn Vampire in the uncontrolled area. n can be any alphanumeric character. i Influence phase event. (i~ArL:Va) [Tap Arcane Library to add 1 blood from the blood bank to Vampire a in the uncontrolled region] >> Action modifier played (Bas>>URg, Bas-2) [Basilia plays Uncontrollable Rage, Basilia burns 2 blood] v[f,a] votes (favor, against). Preceded by a number. (AtU:3va) [Angus the Unruled casts 3 votes against (some referendum)] E~VHQ:3vf would be the code for the Ventrue player tapping the Ventrue Headquarters for 3 votes in favor, since it's a minion phase Event involving tapping (~) the VHQ. RoL>>BOr:2vf is Roland Loussarian playing Bewitching Oration for 2 further votes in favor. Not good for the Gangrel player :(. pv[f,a] Priscus sub-referendum votes. Once this block is determined, it's coded as PRS:3v[f,a] # bleed amount shift. (Ozm>>Con, #+2, Ozm-1B) [Ozmo plays Conditioning for +2 bleed and burn 1 blood]. This could be followed by (Zoe<TCo, #-2), which is Zoe playing Telepathic Counter to reduce the bleed by 2. > Action taken. Typically followed by a card code, or: >h Hunt. ># Cardless bleed. >t Leave torpor. >r Rescue from torpor. Fully defined by a colon and the target's code, as in VlA>r:GBL (Vliam Andor rescues Gunther, Beast Lord from torpor). < Alone, a block attempt with no cards played. With a code, reacting with the appropriate reaction card. I'd expect to see a lot of <WEF<D in a tournament report (Wake with Evening's Freshness, Deflection) <grin>. ic Intercept. +n is gained, -n is reduced. st Stealth. As with intercept, +n/-n are gains and losses. Vote: Vote code followed by a colon precedes the terms of the vote. No real way to codify this given the variety of vote effects. I'm open to suggestions on this one. t Vampire is in torpor. BPwt>Rgn is Bear Paw, in torpor, attempting Regeneration. ! Untaps via some non-normal effect (not the standard untap-phase untap). BPwt>t, BPw-2B, >>FD!, BPw-1B is Bear Paw taking an action to leave torpor, burning 2 blood, playing Freak Drive to untap, and burning 1 blood to pay for Freak Drive. Masika untaps 'between turns,' so I'd chuck him at the very end of someone's turn as a discard-phase event for simplicity of notation. It would code as dMsk!. ++ Using a card at the superior Discipline level. Big difference between Ozm>PoC and Ozm>PoC++ (Ozmo using Pulse of the Canaille at inferior and superior, respectively), for instance. Combat Codes: S Strength. Integer is base number, + or - with integer is modifier. HSo TS S3 (Hector Sosa plays Torn Signpost, Strength is 3) HSo FoD S+2 (Fists of Death, +2 Strength) HGu Dis HSo:S-2 (Harika Guljan plays Disease, -2 Strength for Hector) => Strike. =>h is a hand strike. =>Ent is Entombment. Classes of strikes would have their own codes, such as =>SCE:Maj for striking to end combat via Majesty, or =>Dod:VSp for Dodging with Vampiric Speed. Striking to end combat and untap would look like CHu=>SCE:EMl++, CHu! (Chandler Hungerford ends combat with Earth Meld (superior) and untaps). +n Additional strikes gained. The value of n is the number of additional strikes. Jck=>h (Jacko strikes hands) Jck+1 (Jacko uses his special ability) Jck=>h Jck+2:Blr, Jck-1B (Jacko uses Blur) Jck=>h Jck=>BWr++, Jck-3B (ow, superior Burning Wrath) w Vampire is wounded, through aggravated damage or excess normal damage (or Entombment/Entombment-like effect). nd Damage taken. da is aggravated. This is broken down by strike resolution, so for Jacko's opponent in the example above: ALM1d, ALMw-1B (Ambrosio Luis Moncada takes 1 damage from Jacko's hand strike and burns 1 blood to heal it) ALM3da, ALMw-2B (Moncada takes 3 agg from Jacko's Burning Wrath, is wounded, burns 2 blood to prevent destruction) p Damage prevented. ALM3dap:bLJ is Moncada preventing 3 aggravated damage by burning Leather Jacket. Lct2dap:SoR++ is Lucita preventing 2 aggravated damage with Skin of Rock superior. +mv Maneuver to increase range (to go long) -mv Maneuver to decrease range (to cancel a maneuver) +pr Press to continue -pr Press to end RS[l,s] Rangeset [long, short]. CaiRSl is Cailean setting range to long. TtH-SSt++:RSs is Talley the Hound using Shadow Step superior to set range to short. I think that's all I can think of at the moment. Feel free to complain bitterly about my (doubtless) many mistakes and omissions. Sample turn, with annotations: MethA (Xian): 8 pool MethB (legbiter): 11 pool uAHG:Car+1B, Car8B uAoR:MethB-1P, MethB10P (Cardano gains 1 blood through Academic Hunting Ground, Cardano at 8 blood) (Xian's Army of Rats burns 1 pool from legbiter) mUnD:HMA, -2P, MethA6P, MethB-4P, MethB6P m;BD:Car-1B, MethA+1P, Car7B, MethA7P (Xian plays Unnatural Disaster on legbiter's High Museum of Art. Xian loses 2 pool. legbiter loses 4 pool. Both are now at 6 pool.) (Xian moves 1 blood from Cardano to his pool via Blood Doll. Cardano is at 7 blood, Xian is at 7 pool.) Car>KRC>>Sed:Svk, +1st (Cardano calls Kine Resources Contested, Seducing Stravinsky as the action is announced. The action is at +1 stealth.) CrM<SpT++, +1ic (Corinne Marcon plays superior Spirit's Touch for +1 intercept) Car>>Ala, +1st, Car-2B, Car5B (Cardano plays Alacrity at inferior for +1 stealth and burns 2 blood. Cardano is at 5 blood.) KRC:3MethA, 1MethB (terms of the vote are announced. What does Xian have up his sleeve, hitting himself for 3 with a KRC? It smells like a Parity Shift!) Car2vf, KRC:3-0 Msh1pva, PRS:1-0 PRS3va, KRC:3-3 MethA1vf:bEdg, KRC:4-3 MethA-3P, MethB-1P, MethA4P, MethB5P (A spirited exchange of opinions between Cardano and the Prisci, as represented by Meshenka, follows. Xian burns the Edge for a vote. The KRC passes.) Car>>FD, Car-1B, Car4B (Cardano plays Freak Drive to untap, is now at 4 blood) Car>PSh>>Sed:Svk, +1st (That Xian! In contravention of all sane tournament rules, he's repeating an action! And where did that steel chair he's holding come from? The referee does nothing! This is a travesty for organized pro wrestling, um, I mean tourney play. This is clearly a home game played with repeat actions allowed. Possibly because Xian wanted to play his 30-Freak Drive deck.) (Cardano calls Parity Shift, Seducing Stravinsky. Stravinsky liiikes Cardano. Flowers and chocolates to follow.) Msh<EaS, +1in (Meshenka uses Eagle's Sight inferior) % MSh CCr MSh +mv:AfB Car -mv:UfP++ MSh +mv:Fak Car=>Thf++ MSh=>AfB MSh-2B, MSh6B Car+2B, Car7B Car3d (1AfB, 2CCr) Car1dp:UfP++ Car1dp:Ind++, -1B, Car6B MSh +pr:AfB Car -pr:Ind++ % (Meshenka blocks Cardano, plays Carrion Crows, goes long with Aid from Bats. Cardano closes with superior Unflinching Persistence. Meshenka goes long with Fake Out. Cardano strikes Theft of Vitae. Meshenka strikes Aid from Bats. Meshenka loses 2 blood to Theft, Cardano gains 2, going to 7 blood. Cardano takes 3 damage, 1 from Bats and 2 from Crows. Cardano prevents 1 with the Unflinching he played earlier, then plays a superior Indomitability. Cardano burns 1 blood to heal the other point of damage, going to 6 blood. Meshenka presses with Aid from Bats. Cardano cancels the press with the press from superior Indomitability.) And so forth. The biggest part of the job is coming up with pithy codes for all the cards. That's a big frigging job. Well, what do you guys think? gomi [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <82c154eb.01062...@posting.google.com>, XZealot <X_Ze...@email.msn.com> wrote: >While I like what you are doing. But perhaps the abbrevialtions could >use some work ST could equal Spirits Touch or Shock Troops as well as >the Scorpion's Touch which you have listed below. Almost any >combonation of less than 4 or 5 letters could be misconstrued as >something else. Yep, but I do like the idea of metacharacters identifying the type. [ quoted text not captured ] >h Hunt. ># Cardless bleed. >t Leave torpor. [ quoted text not captured ] Combat Codes: [ quoted text not captured ] +pr Press to continue -pr Press to end [ quoted text not captured ] Sample turn, with annotations: [ quoted text not captured ] CrM<SpT++, +1ic [ quoted text not captured ] KRC:3MethA, 1MethB [ quoted text not captured ] MethA-3P, MethB-1P, MethA4P, MethB5P [ quoted text not captured ] Car>>FD, Car-1B, Car4B [ quoted text not captured ] Msh<EaS, +1in [ quoted text not captured ] And so forth. [ quoted text not captured ] gomi >> Example: [ quoted text not captured ]

"Gomi no Sensei" <go...@grace.speakeasy.net> wrote in message news:9h8lci$1fn$1...@grace.speakeasy.net... > Sample turn, with annotations: > > MethA (Xian): 8 pool > MethB (legbiter): 11 pool Sounds like fun already! :) > uAHG:Car+1B, Car8B > uAoR:MethB-1P, MethB10P > > (Cardano gains 1 blood through Academic Hunting Ground, Cardano at > 8 blood) And I prove once again, that I am Cardano's Bitch, no? > (That Xian! In contravention of all sane tournament rules, he's > repeating an action! And where did that steel chair he's holding > come from? The referee does nothing! This is a travesty for > organized pro wrestling, um, I mean tourney play. This is clearly > a home game played with repeat actions allowed. Possibly because > Xian wanted to play his 30-Freak Drive deck.) Ah, if only...mmmmm...Freaky goodness. > The biggest part of the job is coming up with pithy codes for all > the cards. That's a big frigging job. > > Well, what do you guys think? You've been thinking about this *waaaaaaaaay* too much. Put the crack pipe down. Now. Xian

As LSJ reports, Jyhad Online (aka JOL: http://www.deckserver.net/jol) uses transcripts of all games. While they don't use abbreviations or notations, they are complete. Below, as an example, is a partial transcript of the middle turns of a recent game. It would not be terribly difficult to similarly track a live game, although I would much prefer to watch than transcribe. ;) Madman ------ Transcript: ------ **Tat's Turn 3.1 Starting Pool: 21 Untap: Burn my Information Highway Master: Dreams of the Sphinx, Push one to Cameron Minion: Mustafa wants a Laptop (Pool: 18) Influence: put 2 on #6 and 2 on #5 Ending Pool: 15 **Grey Seer's Turn 3.2 Starting Pool: 22 Minion: 1. March Computer Hacks for 2 Rich pool: 21 2. Antoinette employs a retainer: Mr Winthorp Influence: pay 1 to see 1, #1 1 on #1, introducing Basil 1, obf, Pander 1 on #8, introducing Nik 1, cel, Catiff Ending Pool: 19 **Rich's Turn 3.3 Starting Pool: 21 Minion: Ricki Van Demsi will bleed Sugar Sleepy Juan forces himself awake Ricki plays Dawn Operation Juan goes back to sleep Juan 2/3; Sugar pool: 18 Transfer: 1 to #5, introducing Camille Devereux 3 to #2 Ending Pool: 17 **Sugar's Turn 3.4 Start Pool: 18 (-1 by Rich) Master: pull two blood from Short Term (pool: 20) Minion: Juan Cali equips Vial of Garou Blood (pool: 19) Transfer: 4 to #7, introducing Emerson Bridges, Ventrue,8,DOM FOR pot PRE,Prince of Washington, D.C. Discard: Pack Tactics End Pool: 15 **Madman's Turn 3.5 Starting Pool: 21 Minion: Sir Walter equips with an Ivory Bow Influence: 4 to #6, introducing Brachach, Brujah,5,PRE,CEL,for Ending Pool: 16 **Tat's Turn 4.1 Starting Pool: 15 Master: Play Elysian Fields (pool: 13) tap Dreams of the Sphinx to draw two cards Minion: Cameron bleeds with Kine Dominance and Bonding for 4 (Grey Pool: 15) Influence: 4 to #6, introducing Gratiano 8 DOM OBT obf pot Priscus +1 bleed Discard: Bonding, Shadow Play Ending Pool: 9 **Grey Seer's Turn 4.2 Starting Pool: 15 Master: Effective Management drawing #5 Minion: 1. March, Computer Hacking, tries to bleed for 2 Camille Blocks Round 1 Camille: plays Carrion Crows March: Strike Hands Camille: Strike Hands, plays Wolf Claws March: plays Undead Persistence Camille: plays Skin of Rock March: Presses Round 2 March: Strike Hands Camille: Strike Hands Camille: plays Bone Spur Camille: plays Rolling with the Punches March is burned Combat ends March is burned Camille 3/5 2. Basil bleeds for 1 3. Nik using Computer Hacking bleeds for 2 Influence: pay 1 to see 1, #4 Put 1 on #5, intro Smudge the Ignored Put 1 on #4, intro March Halcyon - again! :) Discard: Information Highway Ending Pool: 12 -- End of Partial Transcript --

I like Derek's format the best of those suggested. With ~1387 seperate cards, my guess is that too much abbreviation forcing lookup will get stale very, very quickly. Quick, what is SotC? How about PI? Hurry, tell me what GA is! Ok, I will give a character, how about mGA? Faster! Nope, not Gangrel Atavism, try Guardian Angel. Now, wouldn't GangAtav or GuarAnge be easier to read? (Sins of the Cauchemar, Primal Instincts - SinsCauc, PrimInst) Derek Ray wrote: > > >finding someone > to actually DO the transcription is going to be a real bitch. =) > Tedium extremis. > Very true. If we could get some sort of script that could work on a Palm or something, might be easier. You just type in the first letters of each word in the title of the card, and zing, it finds the card, or a choice of a few, and then pick the one. > > Excruciatingly complex, of course. Largely because of the card names, > but also because the attempt to transcribe combat is going to REALLY > hurt. No doubt. The transcription should be backed up with a video of the game to double check for accuracy. I am serious for "big" games, like regional chamionships. > > with LSJ's action, single-word names for vampires are probably best. > > "Nash." =) I discuss crypt below, although single words seem good (however, Lolita, or Houston? No doubt Lolita Houston will often be confused for Lolita, if only momentarily). > > >7. Translating terms regarding the game into ASCII symbols. > > Extremely painful for any non-automated system. If someone's going to > be manually transcribing this, it HAS to be a lot simpler than that. > And the worries about ASCII symbols make it less than legible, as > well. Are you looking for a format that is newsgroup-readable, or a > format that can be fed into a parser and input with a parser > (difficult)? > I think he means ASCII so that it can translate across a lot of platforms easily - someone suggested using bold text, which makes things *much* tougher. [snip Damnan and Derek's examples] > > The above is much more readable, and also distinguishable; going by > only acronyms would leave Spirit's Touch and Shadow Twin difficult to > determine, where STouch and STwin are both equally easy to type, and > immediately obvious to the reader. Perhaps go by a "no more than 8 > characters in any abbreviation" rule? I say exactly 8, but maybe that is too strict? My first impulse is to take the first 4 characters of each of the first two words of the name of the card, ignoring "of", "the", and "from". Are there library cards that turn out too weird, strange, or not clear? MyEnemEn. BodyArse (perhaps humourous to our UK brethren). All the cards that start with "Blood" become "Bloo", BlooDoll, etc. If there is only one word (i.e. no spaces), then the first 8 letters of the word are used, dropping punctuation. I got up to CardSinI and CardSinF. That might be too close to call. Anyways, seems like creating the abbreviations using this algorithm would be very easy to do with a text manipulator (Perl?, I don't know). I am using ELDB, don't know if this algorithm breaks down with Final Nights. Vamps would be much tougher than library I think, although I guess the same algorithm could be used there to? So Nash becomes SirWaltN, Ingrid Russo = IngrRuss, Ingrid Rossler = IngrRoss, another close one. Most of the rest seem like they would work. But is it as elegant as one word? Russo, Rossler - you know who they are. The Lolis may be the most tricky. > > It occurs to me that there is NO way to accurately transcribe what > someone has drawn up to replace any given card, so that part could > (must) be left out. This has a nice side benefit of making the > transcriber's job a bit easier. I agree. I also think we should leave out what is in player's hand - too disruptive to the game for transcriber to peer over shoulder and inspect cards, and since we are thinking about doing this for important tournament games, etc., that should be a concern. Instead, any transcription of the game should have all player's deck lists at the beginning, probably in ELDB format... > > Obviously, a certain amount of familiarity with the game is necessary > to read a log like this. > > So, plugging the above action into a turn format... > > == Turn 3: MethA, 23 pool, 0VP == I like this. Although we could just start every line with 3A, the 3 indicating turn, the A indicating which meth is playing which card. And the A would have to be consistent throughout, regardless of seating position (in re DramUphe or KindRest). > == Govern, DawnOp, KRC, Majesty, VentrueHQ, BO, VoterCap == Drop this part (hand). [ quoted text not captured ] Otherwise very nice, and easy to read. > > It's a bit more typing for whatever poor bastard is stuck > transcribing, but really, there isn't any good solution for this. > Acronyms are more difficult to type than words, and the "odd" symbols > such as > and [] are more difficult to type than simple parentheses, > semicolons, etc. Agreed. I think we really need to examine this interface for the transcriber. In the heat of battle, if even *one* card gets missed, the whole pooch can be screwed. And if people start "taking back", like taking the edge later in the turn, it get's really hard to keep up too. > > well, there's a start. > > -- Derek I think a good one. Still concerned about the RL interface however. Chris -- chris shorb <www.vtesinla.org> (A V:TES site in development) prince of torrance, california Ultimate Disc - Hockey - Vampire the Eternal Struggle Ebay page <http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/vtessingles/>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:29 GMT, Damnans wrote: >I have been thinking about the necessity of developing a method to >translate V:TES games into some kind of written text code (much like the >one used in chess, but with a higher complexity, obviously). I've transcribed games for other CCGs and didn't find it hard. Turning the transcripts into a readable account of the game is more challenging - you need regular recaps to make the state of the game clear. One special consideration with VTES is the table talk. The deals which players make are usually quite formal and, given the current state of the tournament rules, should be recorded verbatim. I'd also like to read a transcript of the arguments that follow though I suppose 1 hour's worth of back and forth might make tedious reading. And, of course, if Madness of the Bard is in play, it'd be good to have a record of _everything_ that players say. That ought to be especially entertaining <grin> Andrew

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > One special consideration with VTES is the table talk. The deals > which players make are usually quite formal and, given the current > state of the tournament rules, should be recorded verbatim. I'd also > like to read a transcript of the arguments that follow though I > suppose 1 hour's worth of back and forth might make tedious reading. Of course. A game transcription not only could but also should include player's thoughts and conversations (at least in sumary). What I usually do when I make a report on a game is having each player write a report from their point of view. Then I put each player's reports together. This task should be complementary to a game transcription (which should only include "mechanical" information.) Greetings, Damnans

> It's a bit more typing for whatever poor bastard is stuck > transcribing, but really, there isn't any good solution for this. > Acronyms are more difficult to type than words, and the "odd" symbols > such as > and [] are more difficult to type than simple parentheses, > semicolons, etc. I like the notation system you are proposing. It much more comprehensible than the use of acronyms. And compehensibility should be one of the main traits of the V:TES game transcription system in project. Greetings, Damnans

Derek Ray wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:29 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: > > >This way, important games (such as final rounds) could be transcripted > >and posted on the newsgroup so that everybody could have access to an > >accurate report on them. > > I like this idea, but feel compelled to point out that finding someone > to actually DO the transcription is going to be a real bitch. =) > Tedium extremis. Yeah... But we must make the transcriptor's task as easy as possible. :)) > >4. The code should reflect the current pool, hand, and any other > >important general factors at the beginning of each player's turn. > > This I don't think is quite as important. I like the idea of Nash(6) > taking actions, just as a quick reference on each vampire's blood, but > trying to get TOO extensively detailed might prove difficult. > > Perhaps only a brief report at the start of each turn? Yes. I think that would be enough, as you exemplify below. > >6. Making a difference between library and crypt cards, so that they > >cannot be mistaken for one another. > > with LSJ's action, single-word names for vampires are probably best. > > "Nash." =) Yes. This afternoon I will try to make a "dictionary" containing each card full names and their short versions (for notation purposes). [ quoted text not captured ] I like your transcription system, but I think it could be more simple. For instance, it should not be necessary to write down "MethX" before an acting vampire's name if it is his or her controller's turn. I would even use different terms for the Methuselahs in the game. Instead of "MethX", we could use "Prey", "Pred" = predator, "Gprey" = grandprey, "Gpred" = grandpredator. I think this subjective point of view is much more comprehensible. > It occurs to me that there is NO way to accurately transcribe what > someone has drawn up to replace any given card, so that part could > (must) be left out. This has a nice side benefit of making the > transcriber's job a bit easier. Yes, maybe. [ quoted text not captured ]

Hi, Aramis: Gomi no Sensei wrote: > In article <82c154eb.01062...@posting.google.com>, > XZealot <X_Ze...@email.msn.com> wrote: > >While I like what you are doing. But perhaps the abbrevialtions could > >use some work ST could equal Spirits Touch or Shock Troops as well as > >the Scorpion's Touch which you have listed below. Almost any > >combonation of less than 4 or 5 letters could be misconstrued as > >something else. > > Yep, but I do like the idea of metacharacters identifying the type. > > This helps separate possible overlaps. For instance, using a lowercase > m for master helps separate Shock Troops (mST) from Spirit's Touch > (<ST). I like the idea of designating all actions with > and all > reactions with < (so >GtU, >SoC, and <D, <O for Govern the Unaligned, > Seeds of Corruption, Deflection, and Obedience respectively). Although I like your code system due to its brevity, I think that it would be necessary to make it more comprehensible to V:TES players (my transcription system was a bit longer, but it was still cryptic). I am for the use of "STroops" instead of "mST", for instance. In addition, I consider that your code system could be still simplified (e.g., instead of indicating the type of card being used during a master phase: m=master card; m- = master phase action; etc., you could establish a section dedicated to the master phase, and there write down what during this phase happens) [MASTER] ArtMus (-2P) Acting Methuselah plays an Art Museum, which costs 2 pool. > Sample turn, with annotations: > > MethA (Xian): 8 pool > MethB (legbiter): 11 pool > > uAHG:Car+1B, Car8B > uAoR:MethB-1P, MethB10P > > (Cardano gains 1 blood through Academic Hunting Ground, Cardano at > 8 blood) > (Xian's Army of Rats burns 1 pool from legbiter) This turn fragment could be also written: [untap] Cardano(7+1) AcadHG Pred: ARats (-1P) Pred=Predator. > mUnD:HMA, -2P, MethA6P, MethB-4P, MethB6P > m;BD:Car-1B, MethA+1P, Car7B, MethA7P > > (Xian plays Unnatural Disaster on legbiter's High Museum of Art. Xian > loses 2 pool. legbiter loses 4 pool. Both are now at 6 pool.) > > (Xian moves 1 blood from Cardano to his pool via Blood Doll. Cardano > is at 7 blood, Xian is at 7 pool.) [master] UnDisast (-2P) Pred: HMusArt; Pred(-4P) Cardano(8-1) BDoll; (+1P) and so on... I know this method is still to be improved for claritiy's sake. Any suggestions? Greetings, Damnans

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<3AD54971DFA922B9.441AEC8E...@lp.airnews.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] People that want all this kind of detailed information should have to record it themselves. Who is actually going to be able to record, "verbatim" the table talk that goes on? And all the other game information, following format, and still somehow manage to not disrupt the entire game: "Umm Andrew, what was that about the Parity Shift Deal?" Be realistic. Aaron

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:29:15 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: >Derek Ray wrote: > >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:50:29 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: >> >> >This way, important games (such as final rounds) could be transcripted >> >and posted on the newsgroup so that everybody could have access to an >> >accurate report on them. >> >> I like this idea, but feel compelled to point out that finding someone >> to actually DO the transcription is going to be a real bitch. =) >> Tedium extremis. > >Yeah... But we must make the transcriptor's task as easy as possible. :)) Well, the game doesn't fall at a breakneck pace, so while a transcriptor would have to write quickly, he wouldn't have trouble keeping up while players sat and thought. Actually, it would be most difficult at the start of the game when players are VERY fast; "master, powerbase montreal, no minion, 1 from powerbase, transfer 2, bring out ricki van demsy, discard undead persistence, done." Basically, as far as the transcriptor is concerned, however they can get it on paper and convert it to notation later is fine. (Interestingly, I know that I personally type fast enough to transcribe directly to a laptop in my own notation -- but this doesn't mean I'm volunteering to do transcriptions OR that I think it's reasonable for others. But having someone sit at the table with a laptop might go quicker than handwriting.) >Yes. > >This afternoon I will try to make a "dictionary" containing each card full >names and their short versions (for notation purposes). My abbreviations tend to lean towards the defining word of the card, and where preferable match the "first initial, last name" convention used for people's names occasionally. For example: Lolita LHouston or STroops, STwin, STouch. This falls down a little bit since with two STouches, you need to use ScorpTch, but any system is going to have exceptions. >> MethA: Nash(6) no prerange; >> MethB: Zoe(3) DWeapon-I; 44Magnum; >> MethA: Nash(6) no maneuvers; >> MethB: Zoe(3) long, 44Magnum; >> MethA: Nash(6) strike, Majesty-S; >> MethB: Zoe(3) strike, 44Magnum; >> * end combat >> MethA: Nash(5) KRC; >> >> ... and so on. > >I like your transcription system, but I think it could be more simple. For >instance, it should not be necessary to write down "MethX" before an acting >vampire's name if it is his or her controller's turn. I'd be worried that if vampire control changed (Hostile Takeover, ToGP), that it might be difficult to follow who was whose. As someone else mentioned, creating these logs is going to require macros; I know that personally the first thing I'd do is map CTRL-A through CTRL-E to output a Methuselah's name, colon, and space, so I never had to worry about typing that again. Also, it might look a little odd to have (as in the example below) one line out-of-sync; it's probably a hair easier to follow if it's ALWAYS clear which methuselah played which card. >I would even use different terms for the Methuselahs in the game. Instead of >"MethX", we could use "Prey", "Pred" = predator, "Gprey" = grandprey, "Gpred" >= grandpredator. I think this subjective point of view is much more >comprehensible. Well, "MethA" is only in there because we have no names for these Methuselahs. I would prefer to use the first/chosen name of each player, so you get: Derek: Damnans: etc. Then it becomes even easier to read (and also breaks up the even-spacedness a bit). >> It occurs to me that there is NO way to accurately transcribe what >> someone has drawn up to replace any given card, so that part could >> (must) be left out. This has a nice side benefit of making the >> transcriber's job a bit easier. > >Yes, maybe. If you're the transcriber, where do you sit so that you can see all five players' hands to KNOW what they drew up, without having to run around the table constantly? =) -- Derek

On 26 Jun 2001 08:41:21 -0700, Aaron wrote: >People that want all this kind of detailed information should have to >record it themselves. Who is actually going to be able to record, >"verbatim" the table talk that goes on? And all the other game >information, following format, and still somehow manage to not disrupt >the entire game: "Umm Andrew, what was that about the Parity Shift >Deal?" Be realistic. Deals are expected to be a matter of public record. They may be cited as evidence when players start doing bizarre things like rolling over and letting their buddies oust them. From a practical POV there's something to be said for taping each game. This might cut down on 1 hour arguments about who said what when. Andrew

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:06:22 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: >> This helps separate possible overlaps. For instance, using a lowercase >> m for master helps separate Shock Troops (mST) from Spirit's Touch >> (<ST). I like the idea of designating all actions with > and all >> reactions with < (so >GtU, >SoC, and <D, <O for Govern the Unaligned, >> Seeds of Corruption, Deflection, and Obedience respectively). > >Although I like your code system due to its brevity, I think that it would be >necessary to make it more comprehensible to V:TES players (my transcription >system was a bit longer, but it was still cryptic). Well, we have to identify the concept first. Brevity is great for any kind of automated log, where a COMPUTER will be analyzing and producing output. But it's no good for something that people will be reading OR creating, because it's actually harder for people to create. If any V:TES online client ever shows up, it could use a reduced-log format similar to the ones Aramis and Gomi posted; it's much more appropriate there, where a computer handles all the grunt-work. But for something to be posted to the NG, it needs to be human-readable... which a cryptic format isn't. >[MASTER] >ArtMus (-2P) > >Acting Methuselah plays an Art Museum, which costs 2 pool. This is probably a good idea to note unusual card costs next to the card itself with either a 1B or 1P, whichever appropriate. I suggest that since hte majority of actions incur negative costs, we drop the "-" from the notation in favor of only "+1P" for things like a Blood Doll. This gives us: Derek: Nash(7) Govern-S/1B; no block GAME: bank -> Jazz; +3B Hm. Which is still a nuisance, but it DOES provide a means of annotating cards such as Seeds of Corruption, without extra work. In the above case, a Seeded Nash's Govern would cost 3 and could be simply Govern-S/3B. >This turn fragment could be also written: > >[untap] >Cardano(7+1) AcadHG >Pred: ARats (-1P) > >Pred=Predator. I think always using proper names is clearer; otherwise Dramatic Upheaval confuses the reader. Also, the "7+1" notation bothers me; that's an elaborate "8" to me, and if they were curious how much Cardano had before, well... umm.. [UNTAP] Xian: AcadHG -> Cardano(7); +1B GAME: ARats (Leggy 1P); >> (Xian plays Unnatural Disaster on legbiter's High Museum of Art. Xian >> loses 2 pool. legbiter loses 4 pool. Both are now at 6 pool.) >> >> (Xian moves 1 blood from Cardano to his pool via Blood Doll. Cardano >> is at 7 blood, Xian is at 7 pool.) > >[master] >UnDisast (-2P) Pred: HMusArt; Pred(-4P) >Cardano(8-1) BDoll; (+1P) [MASTER] Xian: UnDisast (2P) -> Leggy: HMuseum; Leggy 4P Xian: Cardano(8) BDoll; (1B,+1P) It's going to be hell for the transcriptor to handle blood counts with stuff like this, too, especially with the blood management tricks that Blood Doll provides. -- Derek

In article <3B38A583...@ono.com>, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: >Although I like your code system due to its brevity, I think that it would be >necessary to make it more comprehensible to V:TES players (my transcription >system was a bit longer, but it was still cryptic). > >I am for the use of "STroops" instead of "mST", for instance. > >In addition, I consider that your code system could be still simplified (e.g., >instead of indicating the type of card being used during a master phase: >m=master card; m- = master phase action; etc., you could establish a section >dedicated to the master phase, and there write down what during this phase >happens) I agree with both of those changes. Truly it is said that elegance is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. The acronyms are cryptic compared to the shortnames suggested by you and Derek. And separating a turn into phases, and further subdividing the minion phase into actions, neatly reduces the number of different symbols that have to be used, which helps both the transcriber and the reader. >[MASTER] >ArtMus (-2P) > >Acting Methuselah plays an Art Museum, which costs 2 pool. > > >> Sample turn, with annotations: >> >> MethA (Xian): 8 pool >> MethB (legbiter): 11 pool >> >> uAHG:Car+1B, Car8B >> uAoR:MethB-1P, MethB10P >> >> (Cardano gains 1 blood through Academic Hunting Ground, Cardano at >> 8 blood) > >> (Xian's Army of Rats burns 1 pool from legbiter) > >This turn fragment could be also written: > >[untap] >Cardano(7+1) AcadHG >Pred: ARats (-1P) > >Pred=Predator. This would of course be 'prey', and I think (as Derek suggests) that proper names would be better. >Any suggestions? I like the idea of keeping some of my originally proposed symbology, like > and >> for actions and action modifiers, which might help provide context for what a shortname is. A bunch of the other stuff can go, though. The trick seems to be exploring the space between an alphabet soup that looks like raw UUENCODE text and something so verbose it's not worth bothering with an encoding system at all. I suggest following MadMan's lead and testing various proposed transcription systems on old JOL logs to see how applicable/easy/ readable they are. gomi

On 26 Jun 2001 08:41:21 -0700, roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote: >People that want all this kind of detailed information should have to >record it themselves. Who is actually going to be able to record, >"verbatim" the table talk that goes on? And all the other game >information, following format, and still somehow manage to not disrupt >the entire game: "Umm Andrew, what was that about the Parity Shift >Deal?" Be realistic. Andrew is NEVER realistic. He doesn't play the game enough. He is also not here to BE realistic. He is here to disrupt things as much as possible. He accidentally contributed positively in his last attempt to disrupt, so I notice he's gone back to his original trolling ways in his last few posts... probably so he doesn't produce any more accidents. -- Derek

On 26 Jun 2001 09:28:26 -0700, go...@grace.speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: >In article <3B38A583...@ono.com>, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: > >I agree with both of those changes. Truly it is said that elegance is >achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to >take away. The acronyms are cryptic compared to the shortnames suggested I think we'd better keep this in mind while we do this. It's going to turn into a real mess eventually, I'm sure, and as long as we have something like this hanging out in front, it'll help us not trash things. >by you and Derek. And separating a turn into phases, and further >subdividing the minion phase into actions, neatly reduces the number >of different symbols that have to be used, which helps both the >transcriber and the reader. big on "reader". =) >The trick seems to be exploring the space between an alphabet >soup that looks like raw UUENCODE text and something so verbose >it's not worth bothering with an encoding system at all. > >I suggest following MadMan's lead and testing various proposed >transcription systems on old JOL logs to see how applicable/easy/ >readable they are. Erf. We have an excellent example of what NOT to do; the JOL logs aren't especially coherent. I picked three at random and they don't actually seem to list ACTIONS taken, just cards played. If I can find a log that lists actions, I'll have a go, but I'm not very confident at the moment. There's a lot of "___ takes back into hand" entries in the log, and I don't understand that at ALL. Ah, wait, nevermind. I needed to look at the "history", not the "log". Much more informational. I'll transcribe the first four/five turns of some random game, then, and we'll see how they end up looking. -- Derek

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:16:37 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >Ah, wait, nevermind. I needed to look at the "history", not the >"log". Much more informational. I'll transcribe the first four/five >turns of some random game, then, and we'll see how they end up >looking. I lied. I'll transcribe the first TWO turns, and we already get a lot of info from this. First, even using a macro to splat out the == [UNTAP] stuff, it's a pain. Overall, even this "readable" format is tedious to type, and it's worse when working from something else. Symbolising it isn't going to help, of course, because that reduces characters typed but increases slowness and error-probability It's entirely possible that any transcription is going to need to be with some sort of automated program, OR just totally in the transcriber's own words. The game doesn't lend itself well to shorthand of any kind -- certainly nowhere NEAR as elegant as chess match shorthand, which can be done in 5 seconds immediately following each move. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Five Methuselahs, taken from jol140. Chris, Marcus, Frede, Xavier, Talonz. == Chris, turn 1, 30 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] Chris: InfoHwy; [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Chris: (vampire A) +1B; Chris: (vampire B) +2B; [DISCARD] == end, 27 pool == Marcus, turn 1, 30 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Marcus: (vampire) +2B; [DISCARD] Marcus: Amaranth; == end, 28 pool == Frede, turn 1, 30 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Frede: (vampire) +3B; [DISCARD] == end, 27 pool == Xavier, turn 1, 30 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] Xavier: Dreams/1P; [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Xavier: Nigel(0) +4B; Xavier: Dreams(0) -> Nigel(4)/+1B; GAME: Nigel(5) activated; [DISCARD] Xavier: HConrad; == end, 26 pool == Talonz, turn 1, 30 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Talonz: (vampire) +4B; [DISCARD] == end, 26 pool == Chris, turn 2, 27 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Chris: Justine(2) +6B; GAME: Justine(8) activated; [DISCARD] == end, 21 pool == Marcus, turn 2, 28 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] Marcus: Golconda -> Justine (Chris 2P); [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Marcus: Rake(2) +4B; GAME: Rake(6) activated; [DISCARD] == == Frede, turn 2, 27 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Frede: Parnassus(3) +4B; GAME: Parnassus(7) activated; [DISCARD] == == Xavier, turn 2, 25 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] Xavier: GAngel/2P -> Nigel; [MINION] Xavier: Nigel(5) LJacket; Frede: Parnassus(7) TeleMis-I/1B; block successsful GAME: no prerange GAME: no maneuvers Nigel(5) IG-S; Nigel(5) strike, hands; Parnassus(6) strike, hands; Parnassus(5) Pursuit-S; Parnassus(5) strike, hands; Nigel(3) prevents 1 (GAngel); Nigel(2) TVitae/+1B; Parnassus(5) TVitae/+2B; GAME: no press [INFLUENCE] Xavier: Olivia(0) +4B; Xavier: Dreams(1) -> Olivia(4)/+1B; GAME: Olivia(5) activated; [DISCARD] Xavier: HConrad; == end, 19 pool == Talonz, turn 2, 26 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] [MINION] [INFLUENCE] Talonz: Vanessa(2) +2B; Talonz: (vampire) +2B; GAME: Vanessa(6) activated; [DISCARD] == end, 22 pool -- Derek

> On 26 Jun 2001 08:41:21 -0700, Aaron wrote: > >> People that want all this kind of detailed information should have to >> record it themselves. Who is actually going to be able to record, >> "verbatim" the table talk that goes on? And all the other game >> information, following format, and still somehow manage to not disrupt >> the entire game: "Umm Andrew, what was that about the Parity Shift >> Deal?" Be realistic. > > Deals are expected to be a matter of public record. They may be cited > as evidence when players start doing bizarre things like rolling over > and letting their buddies oust them. Useful for explanation, but hardly "expected." People reply to tournament reports with "I wonder why he did THAT," not with "What?! Didn't the judge and tournament reporter have notarized statements of the deal?!" What might be more useful for this is a fresh mind, where at the end of every round, the table can put together a quick paragraph of "what happened at our table," so they can pick out all the important actions AND deals, and how the VPs fell. However, anyone who's done "group writing" of any kind can see the obvious pitfalls associated with this kind of work. It's far easier with the current method of history being written by the winners. > From a practical POV there's something to be said for taping each > game. This might cut down on 1 hour arguments about who said what > when. From a *practical* POV, few judges are going to have a tape recorder of sufficient quality to somehow get recordings of all the conversation at the table without being a roar of a room of talking gamers, much less one for EACH table. Nor is anyone going to care so much as to put forth the effort, much less the money. I know you love these points of academic interest, Andrew, and the more data that you can selectively filter, the more you can produce so-called evidence to support your agitations. And, at times, I'm vaguely curious about what was said at this or that tournament, but I don't expect ANY judge to go through the pain of all this. And really, as this thread has shown, it's a lot of work to transcribe all this. In fact, it's WAY too MUCH work for any non-paid individual to do. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:30:12 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: >Andrew is NEVER realistic. I've transcribed several CCG finals and the reports are available for inspection on the web. It can be tricky to keep up sometimes and so I've thought of using a dictaphone to help fill in the gaps. If I were transcribing a VTES game, I would certainly make a point of recording any formal deal and that's why I mentioned it. Andrew

In message <13FADFB5BEAF16B7.05CC3CF3...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >If I >were transcribing a VTES game, I would certainly make a point of >recording any formal deal and that's why I mentioned it. There is no such thing as a "formal deal" in V:TES. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6 Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > First, even using a macro to splat out the == [UNTAP] stuff, it's a > pain. Overall, even this "readable" format is tedious to type, and > it's worse when working from something else. Symbolising it isn't > going to help, of course, because that reduces characters typed but > increases slowness and error-probability From a format, much like you are suggesting, a macro could be created to create a frame for a turn. It would be fairly easy to actually automate the entire process. Just fill in as you go: <short key> gives you: >== Derek, # turn, % pool >[UNTAP] > >[MASTER] > >[MINION] > >[INFLUENCE] > >[DISCARD] > >== end, X pool (# Turn) can be created to be relative to each other, (% pool) can be created to automatically update. The only time it becomes a problem, seems to be comabt? The way you did combat seems fairly easy to follow, but not to create. Maybe combat should follow a similar thread to your turns? == Xavier, turn 2, 25 pool [UNTAP] [MASTER] Xavier: GAngel/2P -> Nigel; [MINION] Xavier: Nigel(5) LJacket; Frede: Parnassus(7) TeleMis-I/1B; block successsful {prerange} {maneuver} Nigel(5) IG-S; {strike} Nigel(5) hands; Parnassus(6) hands; {additional} Parnassus(5) Pursuit-S >>hands; {resolve} Nigel(3) prevents 1 (GAngel); Nigel(2) TVitae/+1B; Parnassus(5) TVitae/+2B; {press} [INFLUENCE] Xavier: Olivia(0) +4B; Xavier: Dreams(1) -> Olivia(4)/+1B; GAME: Olivia(5) activated; [DISCARD] Xavier: HConrad; == end, 19 pool > It's entirely possible that any transcription is going to need to be > with some sort of automated program, OR just totally in the > transcriber's own words. The game doesn't lend itself well to > shorthand of any kind -- certainly nowhere NEAR as elegant as chess > match shorthand, which can be done in 5 seconds immediately following > each move. I believe that word could be used to create a simple to use program that will make creating turns easy(using tabs, forms, macros, and possibly a master document format) But I doubt if anyone would be able to use it but me? Colors/fonts would make it very easy to read, but not to distribute over the news groups. Definatly not as simple as chess! Aaron

Derek Ray wrote: > >This afternoon I will try to make a "dictionary" containing each card full > >names and their short versions (for notation purposes). > > My abbreviations tend to lean towards the defining word of the card, > and where preferable match the "first initial, last name" convention > used for people's names occasionally. For example: > > Lolita > LHouston > > or STroops, STwin, STouch. This falls down a little bit since with > two STouches, you need to use ScorpTch, but any system is going to > have exceptions. Well, I have finished a dictionary of abbreviated card names (only from the Jyhad and V:TES sets). Criteria followed to create this dictionary: CRYPT A vampire's abbreviated name is determined just by his or her SURNAME, unless his or her name is much shorter. LIBRARY 1. Abbreviations must be 8 characters long. 2. If a term exceeds such a length, it will be abbreviated according to this criteria: -Starting articles will be removed (e.g., The Rack = Rack.) -Words before a card's name last word will be turned into acronyms (capital letters), and its last word will be kept untouched (i.e., Sengir Dagger = SDagger.) -If a term still exceeds the 8 char. length, its last word will be abbreviated by removing either ending vowels or consonants, or both (e.g., Protected Resources = PResourc.) -Cities' names will contain just 3 letters (e.g., Chicago = Chi, so Praxis Seizure: Chicago = PS:Chi.) -Clan names will contain just 2 letters (e.g., Toreador = To, so Toreador Juasticar = ToJustic.) Brujah: Br Caitiff: Cf Gangrel: Gn Malkavian: Mk Nosferatu: Nf Toreador: To Tremere: Tr Ventrue: Vn -Hunting Ground = HG after an 2 or 3 letters abbreviation of its name (e.g., Uptown Hunting Ground = UpHG.) -Articles and prepositions within a card's name will be in lower case (e.g., Temptation of the Greater Power = TotGPower.) It is just a beginning, so what do you think about it?. Jyhad/V:TES Adrianne: Adrianne Agrippina: Agripp Aleph: Aleph Anastasia Grey: Grey Andreas - Bard of Crete: Andreas Angel: Angel Angus the Unruled: Angus Anneke: Anneke Anson: Anson Anvil: Anvil Appolonius: Appolon Astrid Thomas: Thomas Badger: Badger Basilia: Basilia Bear Paw: BearPaw Bianca: Bianca Black Cat: BlackCat Brazil: Brazil Camille Devereux: Devereux Cardano: Cardano Cassandra, Magus Prime: Cassandr Chester DuBois: DuBois Colin Flynn: Flynn Courtland Leighton: Leighton Crusher: Crusher Dancin' Dana: Dana Delilah Easton: Easton Demetrius Slater: Slater Democritus: Demo Didi Meyers: Didi Dieter Kleist: Kleist Dimple: Dimple Dollface: Dollface Don Cruez, The Idealist: Cruez Dorian Strack: Strack Dr. Jest: Jest Dr. John Casey: Casey Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn: Dre Duck: Duck Ebanezer Roush: Roush Eliott Sinclair, Virtuoso Thespian: Sinclair Emerson Bridges: Bridges Felicia Mostrom: Monstrom Gideon Fontaine: Fontaine Gilbert Duane: Duane Gitane St. Claire: Gitane Giuliano Vincenzi: Vincenzi Grendel - the Worm Eaten: Grendel Gunther, Beast Lord: Gunther Hasina Kesi: Kesi Heather Florent, The Opportunist: Florent Hector Sosa: Sosa Helena Casimir: Casimir Ignatius: Ignatius Igo the Hungry: Igo Jazz Wentworth: Jazz Jing Wei: Wei Justine, Elder of Dallas: Justine Kallista, Master Sculptor: Kallista KoKo: KoKo Lazarus: Lazarus Lucia Pacciola (Luccia Paciola): Pacciola Lucian: Lucian Lucretia, Cess Queen: Lucretia Lupo: Lupo Lydia Van Cuelen: vCuelen Mariel, Lady Thunder: Mariel Marty Lechtansi: Lechtans Masika: Masika Melissa Barton: Barton Merrill Molitor: Molitor Miranda Sanova: Sanova Natasha Volfchek: Volfchek Navar McClaren: McClaren Nik: Nik Normal: Normal Ozmo: Ozmo Quinton McDonnell: McDonnel Rake: Rake Ramiel DuPre: DuPre Raven: Raven Ricki Van Demsy (Demsi): vDemsy Roland Bishop: Bishop Roland Loussarian: Loussarian Roman Alexander: Alexander Roreca Quaid: Quaid Roxanne, Rectrix of the 13th Floor: Roxanne Rufina Soledad: Soledad Sabine Lafitte: Lafitte Sammy: Sammy Sarah Cobbler: Cobbler Sebastian Marley: Marley Selma the Repugnant: Selma Sheldon, Lord of the Clog: Sheldon Sir Walter Nash: Nash Smudge the Ignored: Smudge Sylvester Simms: Simms Tatiana Romanov: Romanov Thomas Thorne: Thorne Tiberius - Scandalmonger: Tiberius Timothy Crowley: Crowley Tura Vaughn: Vaughn Tusk - Talebearer: Tusk Ulugh Beg, The Watcher: Beg Uma Hatch: Hatch Uriah Winter: Winter Violette Prentiss: Prentiss Vliam Andor: Andor Wynn: Wynn Yuri, The Talon: Yuri Zack North: North Zebulon: Zebulon Library .44 Magnum: Magnum Aaron's Feeding Razor: AFRazor Academic Hunting Ground: AcadHG Aching Beauty: ABeauty Acrobatics: Acrobat Aid from Bats: AfBats Al's Army Apparatus: AApparat Amaranth: Amaranth Anarch Revolt: ARevolt Anarch Troublemaker: ATMaker Ancient Influence: AInfluen Ancilla Empowerment: AEmpower Animalism: Ani Arcane Library: ALibrary Archon: Archon Archon Investigation: AInvest Arms Dealer: ADealer Army of Rats: AoRats Arson: Arson Art Museum: AMuseum Ascendance: Ascend Assault Rifle: ARifle Asylum Hunting Ground: AsylHG Aura Reading: AReading Auspex: Aus Autarkis Persecution: APersec Backways: Backways The Barrens: Barrens Bastard Sword: BSword Behind You!: BYou Betrayer: Betrayer Bewitching Oration: BOration Blood Bond: BBond Blood Doll: BDoll Blood Fury: BFury Bloodhunt: BHunt Blood Puppy: BPuppy Blood Rage: BRage Blur: Blur Body of Sun: BoSun Bomb: Bomb Bonding: Bonding Boxed In: BoxedIn Brainwash: BWash Bribes: Bribes Brujah Frenzy: BrFrenzy Brujah Justicar: BrJustic Bum's Rush: BRush Burst of Sunlight: BoSunlit Business Pressure: BPressur Camarilla Exemplary: CExempl Canine Horde: CHorde Cat Burglary: CBurglar Cat's Guidance: CGuidanc Cauldron of Blood: CoBlood Celerity: Cel Chainsaw: Chainsaw Change of Target: CoTarget Chantry: Chantry Charming Lobby: CLobby Charnas the Imp: CtImp Claws of the Dead: CotDead Cloak the Gathering: CtGather Computer Hacking: CHacking Concealed Weapon: CWeapon Conditioning: Condit Conquer the Beast: CtBeast Consanguineous Boon: CBoon Consanguineous Condemnation: CCondemn Conservative Agitation: CAgitat Cryptic Mission: CMission Cryptic Rider: CRider Cultivated Blood Shortage: CBShortg Cunctator Motion: CMotion Curse of Nitocris: CoNitocr Dawn Operation: DawnOp Day Operation: DayOp Dead-End Alley: DEAlley Deal with the Devil: DwtDevil Deer Rifle: DRifle Deflection: Deflec Delaying Tactics: DTactics Disarming Presence: DPresenc Disguised Weapon: DWeapon Disputed Territory: DTerrit Distraction: Distrac Dodge: Dodge Domain Challenge: DChallng Dominate: Dom Dragon's Breath Rounds: DBRounds Drain Essence: DEssence Dramatic Upheaval: DUpheavl Drawing Out the Beast: DotBeast Dread Gaze: DGaze Eagle's Sight: ESight Earth Control: EControl Earth Meld: EMeld Eco Terrorists: ETerrors Effective Management: EManagm Elder Kindred Network: EKN Elder Library: ELibrary Elysium: The Arboretum: E:tArbor The Embrace: Embrace Enchant Kindred: EKindred Enhanced Senses: ESenses Entrancement: Entrance Faceless Night: FNight Fake Out: Fakeout Fame: Fame Far Mastery: FMastery Fast Hands: Fhands Fast Reaction: FReactn The Fifth Tradition:Hospitality: 5th The First Tradition:The Masquerade: 1st Fists of Death: FoDeath Flak Jacket: FJacket Flamethrower: FThrower Flash: Flash Flesh of Marble: FoMarble Form of Mist: FoMist Form of the Ghost: FotGhost Fortitude: For The Fourth Tradition:The Accounting:4th Fragment of the Book of Nod: FotBoNod Freak Drive: FDrive Frenzy: Frenzy Game of Malkav: GoMalkav Gangrel Atavism: GnAtavsm Gangrel De-evolution: GnAtavsm Gangrel Justicar: GnJustic Ghoul Escort: GEscort Ghoul Retainer: GRetainr Giant's Blood: GBlood Gird Minions: GMinions Glaser Rounds: GRounds Gleam of Red Eyes: GoREyes Golconda: Inner Peace: G:IPeace Govern the Unaligned: GtU Grave Robbing: GRobbing Grenade: Grenade Growing Fury: GFury Gypsies: Gypsies Haven Uncovered: HUncovrd Hawg: Hawg Hell Hound: HHound Hidden Lurker: HLurker High Stakes: HStakes Homunculus: Homuncls Hostile Takeover: HTakeovr Illegal Search and Seizure: IS&Seizr Immortal Grapple: IGrapple Indomitability: Indomit Infernal Pursuit: IPursuit Information Highway: IHighway IR Goggles: IRGoggls Ivory Bow: IBow J. S. Simmons, Esq.: JSSimmon Jackie Therman: JTherman Justicar Retribution: JRetrib Kindred Intelligence: KIntell Kindred Restructure: KRestruc Kindred Segregation: KSegreg Kindred Society Games: KSGames Kine Dominance (Dominate Kine): DKine Kine Resources Contested: KRC The Knights: Knigths KRCG News Radio: KNRadio The Labyrinth: Labyrnth Laptop Computer: LComputr Legal Manipulations: LManipul Letter from Vienna: LfVienna Lextalionis: LTalions Life Boon: LBoon Lost in Crowds: LiCrowds Loyal Street Gang: LSGang Lucky Blow: LBlow Madness Network: MNetwork Magic of the Smith: MotSmith Majesty: Majesty Major Boon: MajBoon Malkavian Dementia: MkDement Malkavian Justicar: MkJustic Malkavian Prank: MkPrank Malkavian Time Auction: MkTAuctn Manstopper Rounds: MRounds Mask of a Thousand Faces: MoTFaces Masquerade Endangered: MEndangr Masquerade Enforcement: MEnforce Metro Underground: MUndergr Mighty Grapple: MGrapple Millicent Smith, Purit.Vamp.Hunter: MSmith Minion Tap: MTap Minor Boon: MinBoon Misdirection: Misdirec Mob Connections: MConnect Monocle of Clarity: MoClarit Movement of the Mind: MotMind Movement of the Slow Body: MotSBody Mr. Winthrop: Winthrop Muddled Vampire Hunter: MVHunter Murder of Crows: MoCrows Night Moves: NMoves Nimble Feet: NFeet Nosferatu Justicar: NfJustic Nosferatu Putrescence: NfPutres Obedience: Obedienc Obfuscate: Obf Open Grate: OGrate Outcast Mage: OMage Owl Companion: OCompan Parity Shift: PShift Patagia: Flaps Allowing Lim.Flight Patagia Peace Treaty: PTreaty Police Department: PDepartm Political Ally: PAlly Political Backlash: PBacklsh Political Flux: PFlux Potence: Pot Powerbase: Chicago: PB:Chi Powerbase: Washington, D.C.: PB:Was Praxis Seizure: Atlanta: PS:Atl Praxis Seizure: Boston PS:Bos Praxis Seizure: Chicago: PS:Chi Praxis Seizure: Cleveland PS:Cle Praxis Seizure: Dallas: PS:Dal Praxis Seizure: Houston: PS:Hou Praxis Seizure: Miami: PS:Mia Praxis Seizure: Seattle: PS:Sea Praxis Seizure: Washington, D.C.: PS:Was Praxis Solomon: PSolomon Presence: Pre Protean: Pro Protected Resources: PResourc Protracted Investment: PInvest Psyche: Psyche Psychic Projection: PProject Psychic Veil: PVeil Pulled Fangs: PFangs Pulling Strings: PStrings Pulse of the Canaille: PotCanai The Rack: Rack Rampage: Rampage Rapid Healing: RHealing Rats' Warning: RWarning Raven Spy: RSpy Read Intentions: RIntent Regaining the Upper Hand: RtUHand Renegade Garou: RGarou Resplendent Protector: RProtect Restoration: Restorat Reversal of Fortunes: RoFortun Ritual Challenge: RChallng Ritual of the Bitter Rose: RotBRose Rotschreck: Rotschrk Rowan Ring: RRing RPG Launcher: RPGLaunc Rumors of Gehenna: RoGehenn Sabbat Threat: SThreat Saturday-Night Special: SNSpcial Sawed-Off Shotgun: SOShotgn Scorn of Adonis: SoAdonis The Second Tradition: Domain: 2nd Seduction: Seduct Sengir Dagger: SDagger Shadow of the Beast: SotBeast Shattering Blow: SBlow Short-Term Investment: STInvest Sideslip: Sideslip The Sixth Tradition: Destruction: 6th Skin of Night: SoNight Skin of Rock: SoRock Skin of Steel: SoSteel The Slashers: Slashers Slum Hunting Ground: SlumHG Smiling Jack, The Anarch: SJack Social Charm: SCharm Society Hunting Ground: SocHG Society of Leopold: SoLeopol Soul Gem of Etrius: SGem The Spawning Pool: SPool The Spirit's Touch: STouch Sport Bike: SBike Spying Mission: SMission Stake (Wooden Stake): WStake Storm Sewers: SSewers Submachine Gun: SGun Succubus Club: SClub Sudden Reversal: SRevers Surprise Influence: SInfluen Talbot's Chainsaw: TChainsw Tasha Morgan: TMorgan Taste of Vitae: ToVitae Telepathic Counter: TCounter Telepathic Misdirection: TMisdir Telepathic Vote Counting: TVCount Temptation of Greater Power: ToGPower Thadius Zho, Mage: TZho Thaumaturgy: Tha Theft of Vitae: ToVitae The Third Tradition: Progeny: 3rd Threats: Threats Thrown Gate: TGate Thrown Sewer Lid: TSLid Toreador Justicar: ToJustic Torn Signpost: TSignpos Tragic Love Affair: TLAffair Trap: Trap Tremere Justicar: TrJustic Undead Persistence: UPersist Undead Strength: UStrngth Unflinching Persistence: UPersist Unnatural Disaster: UDisastr Uptown Hunting Ground: UptHG Vampiric Disease: VDisease Vampiric Speed: VSpeed Vanish from the Mind's Eye: VftMEye Vast Wealth: VWealth Ventrue Headquarters: VnHQ Ventrue Justicar: VnJustic Voter Captivation: VCaptiv Vulnerability: Vulnerab Wake with Evening's Freshness: WwEF Walk of Flame: WoFlame Warzone Hunting Ground: WarHG Weather Control: WControl Well-Aimed Car: WACar Wolf Claws: WClaws Wolf Companion: WCompan XTC-Laced blood: XTC Zip Gun: ZGun Zoo Hunting Ground: ZooHG

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:50:07 GMT, Damnans wrote: >It is just a beginning, so what do you think about it?. Not much. The clans should be three letters not two - much more natural, e.g. Nos rather than Nf for Nosferatu. The use of family names rather than given names doesn't seem right. If you were reporting an episode of Buffy, you'd be talking of Sommers, Harris, Rosenberg and Chase rather than Buffy, Xander, Willow and Cordelia. Thanks but no thanks. Andrew