Today I was helping a fairly new player to the WOD, and while I was
helping him with a new deck some questions arose.
What kind of deck is best for a newbie? Me myself was thinking about a
Lasombra bruise and bleed (toolbox)kind of deck since it has mostly
all of the basic principles of the game being.
- stealth intercept
- bleeding and agressive play
- combat
- and somewhat politics
We eventually decided on a Bruhjah Thrown Sewerlit rush deck (aaargh
newbies :P)
which seems efective enough to me but only adressed one aspect of the
game.
Here in Utrecht I've been having huge problems with finding a solid
meta game, since a lot of our old players have all but stopped playing
the game so I'm trying to get new players.
As I imagin I'm not the only player who've faced this problem I am
wondering how you solved it though because I wouldn't want the game to
die out over here.
I have thought of bribing people but it would get kinda expensive.
I play at a local gaming wtore so it shouldn't be to dificult but I'm
pretty much out of ideas at the moment so if any of you have good
ideas please let me know.
Emile
>What kind of deck is best for a newbie? Me myself was thinking about a
>Lasombra bruise and bleed (toolbox)kind of deck since it has mostly
>all of the basic principles of the game being.
While I've never had to apply this question to V:TES, as a general rule, I'm
against beginner decks that do lots of different things. Precons for a couple
of other CCGs ended up really bugging me because they only served to confuse
players with how diverse they were. They also sucked as decks because they
were trying to highlight too many aspects of the games at the cost of doing
anything reliably.
>- stealth intercept
>- bleeding and agressive play
>- combat
>- and somewhat politics
>
>We eventually decided on a Bruhjah Thrown Sewerlit rush deck (aaargh
>newbies :P)
>which seems efective enough to me but only adressed one aspect of the
>game.
This sounds way bad. Combat is tricky. Cards only useful at a certain range
should increase a player's frustration. Then, rush as a strategy gives more
experienced players problems which suggests it might not be a good strategy to
dump on a newbie.
>Here in Utrecht I've been having huge problems with finding a solid
>meta game, since a lot of our old players have all but stopped playing
>the game so I'm trying to get new players.
>
>As I imagin I'm not the only player who've faced this problem I am
>wondering how you solved it though because I wouldn't want the game to
>die out over here.
>I have thought of bribing people but it would get kinda expensive.
>
>I play at a local gaming wtore so it shouldn't be to dificult but I'm
>pretty much out of ideas at the moment so if any of you have good
>ideas please let me know.
A lot of people's first constructed deck is Malk stealth bleed. I don't see
any problem starting someone out with a straightforward bleed deck. More
complex decks should end up slowing down someone's grasp of the game. Don't
just have to worry about unfamiliar game rules playing a more complex deck but
what the strategy is, adapting to strategies, and likely more card texts.
Then, I'd consider moving on to bruise and bleed and intercept combat. In a
low intercept environment, politics could come in sooner rather than later as
well. I'm just concerned that a newbie with a vote deck is going to get
extremely frustrated if votes are consistently blocked - stealth vote being
something I'd want to bring in after a simpler vote deck.
ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.02092...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I'd say gangrel toolbox, you can build a gangrel deck on just
uncs/commons, which like everyone has to spare, with raven familiar,
earth meld, various fortitude, wolfs/claws of the dead, rats
awakening/guard dogs, cats guidance, dotb, etc.
It's easy to play, and it can usually stay on the table for quite some
time
(better then the shite-deck i played this saturday :P)
Bram
ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.02092...@posting.google.com>...
> What kind of deck is best for a newbie? Me myself was thinking about a> Lasombra bruise and bleed (toolbox)kind of deck since it has mostly
> all of the basic principles of the game being.
I build decks for new players (and let them keep the decks for free).
I almost always go with what I call a "shallow toolbox." The deck has
a lot of cards that can be played by themselves, without a combo or
with only one other card, for various effects. Almost any clan can do
this, though I find Gangrel, Nosferatu, and Brujah to be the best
candidates.
Good examples are equipment, simple stealth, reaction cards like
Surprise Influence, and simple strikes like Thrown Gate (the optional
maneuver can be confusing, but prevents frustration when their
opponent moves to long and you have to tell them they can't do
anything). Master cards with simple "tap for X" effects are also good.
As long as the toolboxy nature of the deck is fairly straightforward,
I don't think a variety of cards is neccessarily confusing. As long as
a particular effect can be acheived by only playing one card, the new
player should be fine, and won't get frustrated by not being able to
play cards because the situation isn't right or they don't have a
combo in their hand.
JSpektr
ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.02092...@posting.google.com>...
> What kind of deck is best for a newbie? Me myself was thinking about a
> Lasombra bruise and bleed (toolbox)kind of deck since it has mostly
> all of the basic principles of the game being.
I haven't tried this yet, but I've been meaning to put some sample
decks together, to demonstrate mechanics, etc. I'd like to use
multiple decks with complementary disciplines, which could be added
together to form a larger deck. Also, I think it's better to
introduce combat and voting in a second demo game. I'll take your
Lasombra deck as an example.
Consider a 40-library/8-crypt obt/dom sneak'n'bleed deck and a 40/8
obt/pot/dom rush deck. You would have a similarly constructed deck of
another type(aus/dom intercept/bleed, for example). Have the newbie
play the sneak'n'bleed deck first, until they get the mechanics, or
sweep. :P All combat in the first game resolves as punching for base
strength, to make things simple. Use this game to demonstrate the
turns and phases, disciplines, actions, blocking, reactions, bleeding,
stealth/intercept.
Then, let them play the rush deck, and demonstrate combat, torpor,
diablerie, burning, etc. Game flow, blood management, Predator/Prey
relationship, etc. would be demonstrated in both games.
When we are recruiting new players we play starters (FN&SW) for the first
few games. The first game is usually with everybody playing with an open
hand to show basics.
After the players have learned the basic aspects of the game (bleeding,
voting, combat ...) we give them decks from our collection (we have 30+
decks lying around).
From there on they play with every strategy that is available and often they
score VPs because they play differently from what you excpect as a veteran.
But the most important thing is :
NEVER LET THEM TAKE BACK THINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE WRONG OR STUPID.
People only learn through pain ;-)
We never had problems with frustrated players. Every lost game created even
more motivation to get their revenge ;-)
Johannes
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02092...@posting.google.com>...
> ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.02092...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > What kind of deck is best for a newbie? Me myself was thinking about a
> > Lasombra bruise and bleed (toolbox)kind of deck since it has mostly
> > all of the basic principles of the game being.
>
> I build decks for new players (and let them keep the decks for free).
> I almost always go with what I call a "shallow toolbox." The deck has
> a lot of cards that can be played by themselves, without a combo or
> with only one other card, for various effects. Almost any clan can do
> this, though I find Gangrel, Nosferatu, and Brujah to be the best
> candidates.
I will second this type of introductory advice.
My first few decks made for my girlfriend, who alas, is still confused
about complicated aspects of the game (of course, she forgets how to
play Munchkin every time we break it out, which is once a week).
I created Nosferatu deck for her with a little bit of stealth, some
equipment (close ranged stuff, laptops, and some flak jackets), army
of rats, undead strength and computer hacks. She fought a toreador
deck with just a teenie bit of intercept, very little ending combat, a
few votes, 1 .44 magnum, a little bit of bleeding, a few mind numbs
and a fast hands or two.
After this game (and letting them win. This is important, as it ropes
them into wanting to play a second game) I phased in WWEF and Blood
Dolls, which all newbies seem to use to put blood ON to their
minions...
Then I let her complain about her deck. She said she wanted .44
magnums, and she wanted to be able to stop me getting my stuff. So I
phased out the close ranged combat & stealth and added the guns and
cat's guidance and carrion crows.
Then she complained about not being able to get the guns because I
would block her, and so I added both stealth and intercept, and then
she complained about not having what she needed when she needed it.
Then I explained to her the complicated nature of tool boxing
problems, and she started to understand a few ways of how this game
can be so godamned frustrating sometimes.
I'd recommend this type of deck creation over any other. Make the
decks while their sitting there, but make them with really simple
cards and stick to simple concepts.
~SV
ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.02092...@posting.google.com>...
> Today I was helping a fairly new player to the WOD, and while I was
> helping him with a new deck some questions arose.
>
> What kind of deck is best for a newbie? Me myself was thinking about a
> Lasombra bruise and bleed (toolbox)kind of deck since it has mostly
> all of the basic principles of the game being.
>
> - stealth intercept
> - bleeding and agressive play
> - combat
> - and somewhat politics
A beginners deck should be easy to handle and have a high probability
to get at least one vp. If a beginner wins, he/she will get more
interested. Everybody likes to win. It will be hard to maintain their
initial interest if they are crushed the first games.
So I would recommend a basic Malk S&B-deck. Spice it up with a few fun
cards like Muddled, Flame Thrower, Derange, Lunatic Eruption, ...
> We eventually decided on a Bruhjah Thrown Sewerlit rush deck (aaargh
> newbies :P)
> which seems efective enough to me but only adressed one aspect of the
> game.
>
> Here in Utrecht I've been having huge problems with finding a solid
> meta game, since a lot of our old players have all but stopped playing
> the game so I'm trying to get new players.
>
> As I imagin I'm not the only player who've faced this problem I am
> wondering how you solved it though because I wouldn't want the game to
> die out over here.
> I have thought of bribing people but it would get kinda expensive.
>
> I play at a local gaming wtore so it shouldn't be to dificult but I'm
> pretty much out of ideas at the moment so if any of you have good
> ideas please let me know.
>
> Emile
Robert
> > As I imagin I'm not the only player who've faced this problem I am
> > wondering how you solved it though because I wouldn't want the game to
> > die out over here.
> > I have thought of bribing people but it would get kinda expensive.
> >
> > I play at a local gaming wtore so it shouldn't be to dificult but I'm
> > pretty much out of ideas at the moment so if any of you have good
> > ideas please let me know.
At some point I know that WW was providing demo kits to Princes...
anyone know if this is still the case? It sounds like a good way to
get some cards to demonstrate play and to give to the new players
without breaking your own collection/pocket.
I know that a while back WW posted some basic deck ideas for each clan
on their web site. Now, coming from a roleplay background I know that
a lot of the new players we get here think in "roleplay" terms and
thus want to "play a Gangrel deck" or "play a Cam deck". The idea of
mixing and matching Sabbat and Cam vamps doesn't occur to them.
Therefore, would these decks (I can't remember what they were like) be
any good? As far as I remember they're made up of commons and
whatnot; I know that most groups have a "commons box" or something
such like kicking around. It may be worthwhile to put a few of these
together and have them hanging around for the newbies to play with.
Iain - Prince of Milton Keynes
[ quoted text not captured ]
The other problem with coming from a roleplay background is that
sometimes you get those players who play "Craaaaaaazy Malkavians" (taking
random actions just because their vampires are "insane"), for example.
You have to watch out for that. Make sure that they understand
that the strategy behind the game transcends roleplaying, while the
spirit of the story can still be preserved.
[ quoted text not captured ]
You can also use the explanation that, even in the RPG, the Malkavians
are seldom if ever truly random - there's (almost) always a method to
their madness, even if that isn't apparent to those around then (or,
sometimes, even to themselves).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> Here in Utrecht I've been having huge problems with finding a solid
> meta game, since a lot of our old players have all but stopped playing
> the game so I'm trying to get new players.
>
> As I imagin I'm not the only player who've faced this problem I am
> wondering how you solved it though because I wouldn't want the game to
> die out over here.
> I have thought of bribing people but it would get kinda expensive.
>
> I play at a local gaming wtore so it shouldn't be to dificult but I'm
> pretty much out of ideas at the moment so if any of you have good
> ideas please let me know.
>
> Emile
Well, i am still playing, but never present....try another day instead
of saturday....maybe thursdays?
W
WW is still providing Demo kits to princes.
My experience with Carl and Lisa was exceptional last month in
obtaining a kit on rather short notice. I have only praise for the
way it was handled...hard to beleive Carl is "worlds away from
Atlanta." Both really helped me out.
My kit contained ten CE starter decks and they were perfect for my new
audience.
The decks are quite servicable for demo and game play. I also got
play mats/posters, VtM basic books, membership cards, and several of
the various promo cards, including the CE Prince of DC.
If someone stayed on and played a game, I gave them the deck they
used. Everyone got promo cards too, even if they just stopped by and
listened to me blather.
dan in baltimore
ped_...@hotmail.com (Ped Xing) wrote in message news:<51ecf271.02100...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
do3...@yahoo.com (do30red) wrote in message news:<bdd636bc.0210...@posting.google.com>...
> WW is still providing Demo kits to princes.
>
> My experience with Carl and Lisa was exceptional last month in
> obtaining a kit on rather short notice. I have only praise for the
> way it was handled...hard to beleive Carl is "worlds away from
> Atlanta." Both really helped me out.
>
> My kit contained ten CE starter decks and they were perfect for my new
> audience.
> The decks are quite servicable for demo and game play. I also got
> play mats/posters, VtM basic books, membership cards, and several of
> the various promo cards, including the CE Prince of DC.
>
> If someone stayed on and played a game, I gave them the deck they
> used. Everyone got promo cards too, even if they just stopped by and
> listened to me blather.
>
> dan in baltimore
>
Thanx all for you're reply's i have one question for you Dan, how did
you get those starters and who did you have to contact for them.
I am not an official prince so I don't have that much influense with
WW and since I don't suspect WW will give 10 starters for free to
everyone who emails them.
It would help me a lot if I had backup decks I always take several
decks with me but they're often too complicated to be played by a new
player.
So could you let me know how you got the starters it would be a great
help.
Hi Wouter
Sorry but Saturday is the set day (although I'm at the Joker from
thursday untill saturday) I am thinking about organising a new
tournament soon still have to work it out with a location and Tim I'll
let you know.
Emile
"We are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom"
Emile:
Go here: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/veknPrizeSupport.html and
click on the "request form" link and fill out the form.
dan in baltimore
ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.0210...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Oops...read your email too quickly the first time. Become a
Prince...then you can request a Demo Box at the WW link.
my bad in baltimore
ebo...@hotmail.com (Emile Bosman) wrote in message news:<cbf416fb.0210...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I managed to get a couple of new players interested in the game by
giving them a basic and simple weenie presence bleed deck. I have
always foudn it simple to play and very effective. It also allopwed me
to qualifiy for the European Championships. It's been a bit scuppered
by the new Majesty rules, but you could use a lot of staredown instead.
The point is, apart from having to explain voting and vote pushing to
him, he got an effective and powerful deck that he did quite well with
on his first game. Without buying any cards (he just steals/borrows
random
decks I have around) he can play with a reasonable amount of success any
style of deck he picks out
--
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