Wow. Get busy for a few days and look what you miss!
Just to add my two cents, I don't think changing the design was a good
idea, nor do I like the design chosen. I don't think the grouping rule
is a good idea. And I certainly don't think the rumored changes to
various cards (traditions, majesty, etc.) are necessary or good for
the game, if they turn out to be true.
But let's look at this from a business standpoint, shall we?
White Wolf is a business. It wants one thing: to make money. More
specifically in regards to VTES, to make you give it money for more
cards.
White Wolf makes zero dollars from old cards bought off eBay. Each
dollar spent on an out-of-print card is one less dollar someone might
give to White Wolf for an in-print card. Every time you sell an old
card to another player, that is money the other player could be giving
to White Wolf.
Obviously, it is in White Wolf's best interest to make people stop
wanting to have old cards. How does it accomplish this?
It does it with the new Camarilla set. The design is different, making
it more of a hassle to mix old and new cards. Crypts cannot be mixed,
again devaluing old cards. And many old cards are reprinted in ways
that make it either a hassle to use the old card (because you have to
remember what the new text is without it in front of you), or make the
old card much less useful by changing its function.
As a player and a customer, I find this very irritating. As a
businessman, I may not think it's the best plan, but I understand why
they are doing it. White Wolf wants you to stop buying old cards, and
the Camarilla set is designed to do that.
JSpektr
PS: I suppose we might see the formation of "pre-Cam" leagues now.
There are certainly enough old cards in circulation to support such
leagues for many years into the future. I'm going to suggest exactly
that to the Prince of St. Louis (who's already operating on a pre-May
30 ruling basis), and to the rest of my group.
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> Wow. Get busy for a few days and look what you miss!
>
> Just to add my two cents, I don't think changing the design was a good
> idea, nor do I like the design chosen. I don't think the grouping rule
> is a good idea.
IMO, it is not only a good idea, it's nessecary to keep things
balanced. The 6 cammie clans all get 15 new vampires, giving them a
*huge* advantage over the rest.
>And I certainly don't think the rumored changes to
> various cards (traditions, majesty, etc.) are necessary or good for
> the game, if they turn out to be true.
Why not? All cards at the high end of the power spectrum have been
taken down a notch. Is it really that bad to stop weenie Presence
decks from playing majesty 20 times a game?
Most vamps have to pay a blood to untap with +1 intercept (Read the
Winds, requiring 2 disciplines at superior). At the moment a Prince/
Justicar titel enables you to untap and get +2 intercept without using
a discipline and without spending blood. Does this seem balanced to
you?
The only changes I don't get are those to Hostile Takeover and TOGP.
IMO, HT already was the better card (You only need a 2 cap Ventrue to
'bleed' your prey during your Master Phase) But it's TOGP (which needs
a lot more set-up) that has gotten the worst change. Maybe the
Justicars in this set are a bit smaller... If they use the clan novel
characters, the Tremere Justicar might be a 5 or 6 cap.
>
> But let's look at this from a business standpoint, shall we?
OK
>
> White Wolf is a business. It wants one thing: to make money. More
> specifically in regards to VTES, to make you give it money for more
> cards.
Firstly, the first target of a business is NOT 'to make money'. I know
this sound filosofical and the differences are largely semantics.
Anyway: The first target of a bussines is - and you can find this in
any Marketing/ PR textbook - to keep existing. This can be
accomplished by, for example, making enough money, but there are other
ways... Making money is a short term goal, the long term goal is to
keep on existing.
>
> White Wolf makes zero dollars from old cards bought off eBay. Each
> dollar spent on an out-of-print card is one less dollar someone might
> give to White Wolf for an in-print card. Every time you sell an old
> card to another player, that is money the other player could be giving
> to White Wolf.
Not true, every item sold on eBay is a form of free advertising.
>
> Obviously, it is in White Wolf's best interest to make people stop
> wanting to have old cards. How does it accomplish this?
No, it isn't. WW wants people to search for old cards. It's a way of
getting costummers more involved. Costumers who are more involved tend
to be more loyal costumers.
>
> It does it with the new Camarilla set. The design is different, making
> it more of a hassle to mix old and new cards. Crypts cannot be mixed,
> again devaluing old cards. And many old cards are reprinted in ways
> that make it either a hassle to use the old card (because you have to
> remember what the new text is without it in front of you), or make the
> old card much less useful by changing its function.
Bullshit. The new cards do the same as the 'changed old ones' so you
can still use the old ones. And there's a difference in lay-out
between the Jyhad and V:TES cards, nobody's bitching about that, are
they? Games change and evolve, get used to it.
>
> As a player and a customer, I find this very irritating. As a
> businessman, I may not think it's the best plan, but I understand why
> they are doing it. White Wolf wants you to stop buying old cards, and
> the Camarilla set is designed to do that.
>
This is short-term thinking. As a business, it's in WW's best
interest to keep the fanbase and not to stop them from playing/buying
cards. Most of the changes -IMO of course- seem to be aimed at making
the v:tes more playable IN THE LONG TERM. It's waaaay better to have
a loyal fanbase for a long period of time than having a big influx of
new players who leave the game a couple of months later.
I hope you don't work in Marketing :-)
Jeroen
> Why not? All cards at the high end of the power spectrum have been
> taken down a notch. Is it really that bad to stop weenie Presence
> decks from playing majesty 20 times a game?
One of the really good things about this game is that it has always
(until now) been unlimited. Why shouldn't those decks be allowed to
play Majesty 20 times in a game? If it is really a problem (which it
is not) then if you are going to start implementing limits, why not just
make it so that you can't have more than X in a deck. </sar>
> Most vamps have to pay a blood to untap with +1 intercept (Read the
> Winds, requiring 2 disciplines at superior). At the moment a Prince/
> Justicar titel enables you to untap and get +2 intercept without using
> a discipline and without spending blood. Does this seem balanced to
> you?
Yes. Because it requires a P/J.
Sorrow
---
"I am Jack's wasted life."
- Narrator
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iGiV8.454$FW5.3...@newshog.newsread.com...
> > Why not? All cards at the high end of the power spectrum have been
> > taken down a notch. Is it really that bad to stop weenie Presence
> > decks from playing majesty 20 times a game?
>
> One of the really good things about this game is that it has always
> (until now) been unlimited. Why shouldn't those decks be allowed to
> play Majesty 20 times in a game? If it is really a problem (which it
> is not) then if you are going to start implementing limits, why not just
> make it so that you can't have more than X in a deck. </sar>
That's got nothing to do with it. weenie presence decks still can play
majesty and can still pack 20 in a deck. Only problem is that they have to
pay for it now.
>
> > Most vamps have to pay a blood to untap with +1 intercept (Read the
> > Winds, requiring 2 disciplines at superior). At the moment a Prince/
> > Justicar titel enables you to untap and get +2 intercept without using
> > a discipline and without spending blood. Does this seem balanced to
> > you?
>
> Yes. Because it requires a P/J.
Just in numbers:
only 12 vamps have ANI and AUS
There are 30+ vamps that are Prince or Justicar, with probably another 20 in
CE
ANI + AUS is 4 points in vampire 'creation'
Prince or Justicar titles are mostly 1-2 points
Still sounds balanced? Even with the new cost the second tradition has
lower requirements AND a bigger pay-off.
Jeroen
joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote in message news:<5f0d2397.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...> >And I certainly don't think the rumored changes to> > various cards (traditions, majesty, etc.) are necessary or good for
> > the game, if they turn out to be true.
>
> Why not? All cards at the high end of the power spectrum have been
> taken down a notch. Is it really that bad to stop weenie Presence
> decks from playing majesty 20 times a game?
Do weenie Presence decks win all the time? No. Do they win most of the
time? No. Do they even win 30% of the time? No. There is no need to
fix them.
> Most vamps have to pay a blood to untap with +1 intercept (Read the
> Winds, requiring 2 disciplines at superior). At the moment a Prince/
> Justicar titel enables you to untap and get +2 intercept without using
> a discipline and without spending blood. Does this seem balanced to
> you?
See the questions above, but replace "weenie Presence" with "Prince
Intercept." Part of the cost of the Tradition cards are paid with the
cost of the Princes, who have a higher capacity cost than a non-Prince
with identical disciplines.
None of the rumored changes fix cards that caused a significant
problem. This indicates there is a different reason for the change. I
believe that reason is to devalue old cards to weaken the "grey
market" for old cards.
> The only changes I don't get are those to Hostile Takeover and TOGP.
> IMO, HT already was the better card (You only need a 2 cap Ventrue to
> 'bleed' your prey during your Master Phase) But it's TOGP (which needs
> a lot more set-up) that has gotten the worst change. Maybe the
> Justicars in this set are a bit smaller... If they use the clan novel
> characters, the Tremere Justicar might be a 5 or 6 cap.
Both these cards were powerful, but neither one consistantly won games
for anyone. That should be sufficient proof they weren't broken.
> >
> > But let's look at this from a business standpoint, shall we?
>
> OK
> >
> > White Wolf is a business. It wants one thing: to make money. More
> > specifically in regards to VTES, to make you give it money for more
> > cards.
>
> Firstly, the first target of a business is NOT 'to make money'. I know
> this sound filosofical and the differences are largely semantics.
> Anyway: The first target of a bussines is - and you can find this in
> any Marketing/ PR textbook - to keep existing. This can be
> accomplished by, for example, making enough money, but there are other
> ways... Making money is a short term goal, the long term goal is to
> keep on existing.
That's ridiculous. Businesses exist to make a profit for their owners.
You can read that in any business textbook. That's the cornerstone of
capitalism. If their purpose is just to exist, then they are a hobby.
> > White Wolf makes zero dollars from old cards bought off eBay. Each
> > dollar spent on an out-of-print card is one less dollar someone might
> > give to White Wolf for an in-print card. Every time you sell an old
> > card to another player, that is money the other player could be giving
> > to White Wolf.
>
> Not true, every item sold on eBay is a form of free advertising.
Yes, free advertising for old cards that don't provide any profit to
White Wolf. If you can get old cards that are either cheaper (Jyhad,
Dark Soveriegns) or better (Ancient Hearts, Sabbat) than the current
ones in print, why would you buy the new cards at all?
The players in my group, around 14 people, have probably spent more
money on out-of-print cards in the last 6 months than we have on new
cards. Do you really think White Wolf would prefer not to have that
money?
> > Obviously, it is in White Wolf's best interest to make people stop
> > wanting to have old cards. How does it accomplish this?
>
> No, it isn't. WW wants people to search for old cards. It's a way of
> getting costummers more involved. Costumers who are more involved tend
> to be more loyal costumers.
Yes it is. If a customer has $10, and can either buy a new starter, or
an old starter, which one does White Wolf want them to buy? The new
one. The old one has already been sold. If the customer buys the new
one, they give their money to White Wolf. If they buy the old one,
White Wolf gets no money. I don't know how to explain it more simply
than that.
>
> >
> > It does it with the new Camarilla set. The design is different, making
> > it more of a hassle to mix old and new cards. Crypts cannot be mixed,
> > again devaluing old cards. And many old cards are reprinted in ways
> > that make it either a hassle to use the old card (because you have to
> > remember what the new text is without it in front of you), or make the
> > old card much less useful by changing its function.
>
> Bullshit. The new cards do the same as the 'changed old ones' so you
> can still use the old ones. And there's a difference in lay-out
> between the Jyhad and V:TES cards, nobody's bitching about that, are
> they? Games change and evolve, get used to it.
Please re-read my statement. If you own few or no new cards, and many
of your old ones have changed, it will become very annoying to play
games without the new text in front of you. That's one way to pressure
players to buy new cards instead of old ones. Likewise, if old combos
no longer work, old cards lose their value. If 5th Tradition is
weakened, all those old 5th Tradition cards are less valuable, and
less likely to be sought out by players. Ditto for any other changed
card.
> >
> > As a player and a customer, I find this very irritating. As a
> > businessman, I may not think it's the best plan, but I understand why
> > they are doing it. White Wolf wants you to stop buying old cards, and
> > the Camarilla set is designed to do that.
> >
> This is short-term thinking. As a business, it's in WW's best
> interest to keep the fanbase and not to stop them from playing/buying
> cards. Most of the changes -IMO of course- seem to be aimed at making
> the v:tes more playable IN THE LONG TERM. It's waaaay better to have
> a loyal fanbase for a long period of time than having a big influx of
> new players who leave the game a couple of months later.
Are you suggesting that the current fanbase, that kept the game alive
even when no new cards were being printed at all, isn't loyal? The
current game worked to keep those players, please explain how these
changes will make them more loyal, instead of less.
None of this seems intended to make the game more playable in the long
term to me. The game has worked fine for almost a decade as-is. That
seems like pretty strong proof it wasn't broken.
Personally, I think these changes are intended to force players to
abandon old cards and buy new ones. It's a tactic similar to that used
by computer and software companies that need customers to buy new
products when old ones work just fine. Come out with new products
(software, operating systems, etc.) that are hard to use with old
ones, to force customers to upgrade.
> I hope you don't work in Marketing :-)
Why? Because I actually understand how it works?
Look at the reaction so far. The best responses have been "maybe this
won't be so bad." It doesn't take a genius to see that's not good
marketing.
JSpektr
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<iGiV8.454$FW5.3...@newshog.newsread.com>...
> > Why not? All cards at the high end of the power spectrum have been
> > taken down a notch. Is it really that bad to stop weenie Presence
> > decks from playing majesty 20 times a game?
>
> One of the really good things about this game is that it has always
> (until now) been unlimited. Why shouldn't those decks be allowed to
> play Majesty 20 times in a game? If it is really a problem (which it
> is not) then if you are going to start implementing limits, why not just
> make it so that you can't have more than X in a deck. </sar>
There is nothing stopping weenie pres from packing 20+ majasties with
the new (rumored ) text. I stongly prefer the proposed method over the
thought of card limits.
>
> > Most vamps have to pay a blood to untap with +1 intercept (Read the
> > Winds, requiring 2 disciplines at superior). At the moment a Prince/
> > Justicar titel enables you to untap and get +2 intercept without using
> > a discipline and without spending blood. Does this seem balanced to
> > you?
>
> Yes. Because it requires a P/J.
>
While this is a requirement, it is not a balanced requirement.
Anything other than a p/j needs to pay at least a blood to untad with
only 1 intercept. Balanced would be if any and every clan had the same
ability. Balanced would be every vampire having the abillity to do
exactly the same thing. This would be boring.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> >
> > > Most vamps have to pay a blood to untap with +1 intercept (Read the
> > > Winds, requiring 2 disciplines at superior). At the moment a Prince/
> > > Justicar titel enables you to untap and get +2 intercept without using
> > > a discipline and without spending blood. Does this seem balanced to
> > > you?
> >
> > Yes. Because it requires a P/J.
>
> Just in numbers:
> only 12 vamps have ANI and AUS
> There are 30+ vamps that are Prince or Justicar, with probably another 20 in
> CE
>
> ANI + AUS is 4 points in vampire 'creation'
> Prince or Justicar titles are mostly 1-2 points
>
> Still sounds balanced? Even with the new cost the second tradition has
> lower requirements AND a bigger pay-off.
>
> Jeroen
As a positive note, the "3" issue (which is a hudge disapointment and
really not a big deal at all, more so a really intellegent fix for a
quickly mounting problem) this also reduces the number of princes
available to exploit a highly unbalanced card. Thank you White-wolf.
On 4 Jul 2002 22:13:46 -0700, jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote:
>
>White Wolf is a business. It wants one thing: to make money. More
>specifically in regards to VTES, to make you give it money for more
>cards.
>
Making money requires a good product and a customer base. Screw with
either and that will threaten the bottomline.
>
>Obviously, it is in White Wolf's best interest to make people stop
>wanting to have old cards. How does it accomplish this?
>
Reprint the majority of the Jyhad/Vtes set with a few new cards and
vamps as well as updating and erratting a few more cards,and thats
about it.
Not put the whole game into a blender and press Frappe.
T
On 5 Jul 2002 05:29:06 -0700, joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote:
>jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...>> Wow. Get busy for a few days and look what you miss!
>>
>> Just to add my two cents, I don't think changing the design was a good
>> idea, nor do I like the design chosen. I don't think the grouping rule
>> is a good idea.>
>IMO, it is not only a good idea, it's nessecary to keep things
>balanced. The 6 cammie clans all get 15 new vampires, giving them a
>*huge* advantage over the rest.
>
You know there was absolutely no good reason to add so many new
vampires. A few per clan would've been sufficient in addition to
reprints of the primary vampires. WW decided to flood us with cam
vamps, and the '3' is their bandaid solution to the problem they
created by doing so.
>
>The only changes I don't get are those to Hostile Takeover and TOGP.
>IMO, HT already was the better card (You only need a 2 cap Ventrue to
>'bleed' your prey during your Master Phase) But it's TOGP (which needs
>a lot more set-up) that has gotten the worst change. Maybe the
>Justicars in this set are a bit smaller... If they use the clan novel
>characters, the Tremere Justicar might be a 5 or 6 cap.
>
Those 2 changes made the most sense to me actually.
Very annoying cards.
T
<Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2787fc.12558496@news...
> On 5 Jul 2002 05:29:06 -0700, joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote:
>
> >jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message
news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> >> Wow. Get busy for a few days and look what you miss!
> >>
> >> Just to add my two cents, I don't think changing the design was a good
> >> idea, nor do I like the design chosen. I don't think the grouping rule
> >> is a good idea.
> >
> >IMO, it is not only a good idea, it's nessecary to keep things
> >balanced. The 6 cammie clans all get 15 new vampires, giving them a
> >*huge* advantage over the rest.
> >
>
> You know there was absolutely no good reason to add so many new
> vampires. A few per clan would've been sufficient in addition to
> reprints of the primary vampires. WW decided to flood us with cam
> vamps, and the '3' is their bandaid solution to the problem they
> created by doing so.
Wait a minute. Rewind. You are saying that White Wolf went about their
business and made vampires, and as they went about this, they reached a
certain number, and then they realized that they fucked up, made too many
vampires and then had to cover their tracks? This is why you think the 3
rule was instituted? And you've arrived at this conclusion how exactly?
Nevermind that Steve Wieck has stated that the origin of the 3 rule came
from concerns raised on the Prince Mailing List when certain Princes came to
realize the potential harm of duplicated discipline spreads.
I'm surprised that you have that little faith in the common sense of the
people at White Wolf.
Peteo
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote in message news:<5f0d2397.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> > jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > >And I certainly don't think the rumored changes to
> > > various cards (traditions, majesty, etc.) are necessary or good for
> > > the game, if they turn out to be true.
I think most of the rumored text changes will be good for game
balance.
I think most of the rumored text changes will be bad for the game.
I think the rumors are untrue.
I think the changes will be bad for the game because people like to
have things to compare. It's something I've witnessed before in card
games. Legend of the Burning Sands (at least the first sets) was a
balanced game. It played like Legend of the Five Rings, only with no
overly powerful cards. That is, no cards that catch your attention.
Utterly bland. I found no motivation to make a deck because no card
called out to me, "I am cool! You may have discovered my power!"
Whereas L5R cards did (until they fixed them, too.)
Whether the changes are good for game balance is not up to me, and
discussed by others in other posts. I believe the rumors are untrue,
but that will also be discussed in another post.
> > > White Wolf makes zero dollars from old cards bought off eBay. Each
> > > dollar spent on an out-of-print card is one less dollar someone might
> > > give to White Wolf for an in-print card.
Not true. Many gamers have "disposable income". If they want Ancient
Hearts, they buy Ancient Hearts. If they want Camarilla Edition, they
buy Camarilla Edition. If they want a four hundred dollar
cheeseburger, they buy that, too. None of these precludes the other
for them; if they want it, they will eventually buy it.
> The players in my group, around 14 people, have probably spent more
> money on out-of-print cards in the last 6 months than we have on new
> cards. Do you really think White Wolf would prefer not to have that
> money?
If you can't afford new cards, you're probably not in the demographic
White Wolf is marketing towards.
> If a customer has $10, and can either buy a new starter, or
> an old starter, which one does White Wolf want them to buy? The new
> one. The old one has already been sold. If the customer buys the new
> one, they give their money to White Wolf. If they buy the old one,
> White Wolf gets no money. I don't know how to explain it more simply
> than that.
If the new starter is already in the store, it has been sold to the
store, just as the old one has.
> > > As a player and a customer, I find this very irritating. As a
> > > businessman, I may not think it's the best plan, but I understand why
> > > they are doing it. White Wolf wants you to stop buying old cards, and
> > > the Camarilla set is designed to do that.
I don't see why White Wolf would want you to stop buying old cards.
It's the players with old cards who have supported the game all this
time, I don't think WW wants them to leave. Rather, Camarilla Edition
is as they said: A set to attract new players. Remember how WW said
the Bloodlines were to be played with other clans, not as their own
clans, and after months of asking "how do I build a mono-clan (insert
bloodline) deck that works?", we eventually realized one by one that
they were right? Their statements of intention deserve some credit.
> > This is short-term thinking. As a business, it's in WW's best
> > interest to keep the fanbase and not to stop them from playing/buying
> > cards. Most of the changes -IMO of course- seem to be aimed at making
> > the v:tes more playable IN THE LONG TERM. It's waaaay better to have
> > a loyal fanbase for a long period of time than having a big influx of
> > new players who leave the game a couple of months later.
>
> Are you suggesting that the current fanbase, that kept the game alive
> even when no new cards were being printed at all, isn't loyal? The
> current game worked to keep those players, please explain how these
> changes will make them more loyal, instead of less.
He's not saying this will make current players more loyal. He's
suggesting that a _hypothetical new player_ will be more loyal with
the new changes than without.
> None of this seems intended to make the game more playable in the long
> term to me. The game has worked fine for almost a decade as-is. That
> seems like pretty strong proof it wasn't broken.
And how many new players did it attract and keep during that time? I,
like (I gather) most of the people on this group, have played since
before the card backs changed.
> Personally, I think these changes are intended to force players to
> abandon old cards and buy new ones. It's a tactic similar to that used
> by computer and software companies that need customers to buy new
> products when old ones work just fine. Come out with new products
> (software, operating systems, etc.) that are hard to use with old
> ones, to force customers to upgrade.
What I heard about computer and software companies is, they come out
with new products (software, operating systems, etc.) that are
compatible with old ones, because customers refuse to upgrade.
Version 2.1 of a given program, for example, will often port text
directly from v. 1.0's code to avoid unseen compatibility issues. By
v. 5.1, it has so many near-useless strings of code, it must downsize
(losing compatibility) or become bloatware.
I do not know this, this is what I heard. But I do not want V:TES to
leave overpowered cards alone, or poorly-written or ill-conceived
rules unsimplified, just to keep the old players over the new. I do
not want V:TES to become "bloatware". Think where the game would be
today had the infamous 7/7 rulings not come to pass. LSJ and the
Rules Team pissed off enough people to literally start a revolution
(albeit a small one), and the result? Many are back and the game is
more balanced than ever.
> Look at the reaction so far. The best responses have been "maybe this
> won't be so bad." It doesn't take a genius to see that's not good
> marketing.
People don't embrace change. Perhaps "Maybe this won't be so bad" is
where we are after "I hate change of any kind" and just before "You
know what? This was for the better".
--Brian
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
note the difference between "fixing something that's broken" and "balancing
what is unbalanced"
>
> > The only changes I don't get are those to Hostile Takeover and TOGP.
> > IMO, HT already was the better card (You only need a 2 cap Ventrue to
> > 'bleed' your prey during your Master Phase) But it's TOGP (which needs
> > a lot more set-up) that has gotten the worst change. Maybe the
> > Justicars in this set are a bit smaller... If they use the clan novel
> > characters, the Tremere Justicar might be a 5 or 6 cap.
>
> Both these cards were powerful, but neither one consistantly won games
> for anyone. That should be sufficient proof they weren't broken.
see above.
>
>
> > >
> > > But let's look at this from a business standpoint, shall we?
> >
> > OK
> > >
> > > White Wolf is a business. It wants one thing: to make money. More
> > > specifically in regards to VTES, to make you give it money for more
> > > cards.
> >
> > Firstly, the first target of a business is NOT 'to make money'. I know
> > this sound filosofical and the differences are largely semantics.
> > Anyway: The first target of a bussines is - and you can find this in
> > any Marketing/ PR textbook - to keep existing. This can be
> > accomplished by, for example, making enough money, but there are other
> > ways... Making money is a short term goal, the long term goal is to
> > keep on existing.
>
> That's ridiculous. Businesses exist to make a profit for their owners.
> You can read that in any business textbook. That's the cornerstone of
> capitalism. If their purpose is just to exist, then they are a hobby.
In your world businesses are out to make a quick buck and then dissapear
into thin air? If 'profit' is the only goal, why bother with things as
Brand Loyalty, PR, Customer Services.... (This is gettins waaaaay OT)
>
>
> > > White Wolf makes zero dollars from old cards bought off eBay. Each
> > > dollar spent on an out-of-print card is one less dollar someone might
> > > give to White Wolf for an in-print card. Every time you sell an old
> > > card to another player, that is money the other player could be giving
> > > to White Wolf.
> >
> > Not true, every item sold on eBay is a form of free advertising.
>
> Yes, free advertising for old cards that don't provide any profit to
> White Wolf. If you can get old cards that are either cheaper (Jyhad,
> Dark Soveriegns) or better (Ancient Hearts, Sabbat) than the current
> ones in print, why would you buy the new cards at all?
*boggle* But those cards were already sold to distributor and local stores.
Wotc or WW already sold those cards years ago.
>
> The players in my group, around 14 people, have probably spent more
> money on out-of-print cards in the last 6 months than we have on new
> cards. Do you really think White Wolf would prefer not to have that
> money?
They already got it when the original buyer bought their stuff.
>
>
> > > Obviously, it is in White Wolf's best interest to make people stop
> > > wanting to have old cards. How does it accomplish this?
> >
> > No, it isn't. WW wants people to search for old cards. It's a way of
> > getting costummers more involved. Costumers who are more involved tend
> > to be more loyal costumers.
>
> Yes it is. If a customer has $10, and can either buy a new starter, or
> an old starter, which one does White Wolf want them to buy? The new
> one. The old one has already been sold. If the customer buys the new
> one, they give their money to White Wolf. If they buy the old one,
> White Wolf gets no money. I don't know how to explain it more simply
> than that.
Look, it's a TRADING card game. Do you think WW cares (financially) wether
you trade your cards, buy them from Errol, or from eBay? NO, because those
cards are already sold.
Granted, WW does give an incentive to all players to buy new cards (New base
set for newer players and 100 new vamps+15 new cards for veterans), and who
can blame them for that? But giving incentive to buy new cards is not the
same as "wanting people to stop looking for old cards"
>
> > > It does it with the new Camarilla set. The design is different, making
> > > it more of a hassle to mix old and new cards. Crypts cannot be mixed,
> > > again devaluing old cards.
You mean: "not improving the already strong and tried deck archtypes".
Nothing is being devaluated.
> > >And many old cards are reprinted in ways
> > > that make it either a hassle to use the old card (because you have to
> > > remember what the new text is without it in front of you), or make the
> > > old card much less useful by changing its function.
> >
> > Bullshit. The new cards do the same as the 'changed old ones' so you
> > can still use the old ones. And there's a difference in lay-out
> > between the Jyhad and V:TES cards, nobody's bitching about that, are
> > they? Games change and evolve, get used to it.
>
> Please re-read my statement. If you own few or no new cards, and many
> of your old ones have changed, it will become very annoying to play
> games without the new text in front of you. That's one way to pressure
> players to buy new cards instead of old ones. Likewise, if old combos
> no longer work, old cards lose their value. If 5th Tradition is
> weakened, all those old 5th Tradition cards are less valuable, and
> less likely to be sought out by players. Ditto for any other changed
> card.
If that's true, why would they search for or buy the new ones?
>
>
> > >
> > > As a player and a customer, I find this very irritating. As a
> > > businessman, I may not think it's the best plan, but I understand why
> > > they are doing it. White Wolf wants you to stop buying old cards, and
> > > the Camarilla set is designed to do that.
> > >
> > This is short-term thinking. As a business, it's in WW's best
> > interest to keep the fanbase and not to stop them from playing/buying
> > cards. Most of the changes -IMO of course- seem to be aimed at making
> > the v:tes more playable IN THE LONG TERM. It's waaaay better to have
> > a loyal fanbase for a long period of time than having a big influx of
> > new players who leave the game a couple of months later.
>
>
> Are you suggesting that the current fanbase, that kept the game alive
> even when no new cards were being printed at all, isn't loyal? The
> current game worked to keep those players, please explain how these
> changes will make them more loyal, instead of less.
I'm talking about new(er) players, of course.
>
> None of this seems intended to make the game more playable in the long
> term to me. The game has worked fine for almost a decade as-is. That
> seems like pretty strong proof it wasn't broken.
reread the statement: broken < > unbalanced
>
> Personally, I think these changes are intended to force players to
> abandon old cards and buy new ones. It's a tactic similar to that used
> by computer and software companies that need customers to buy new
> products when old ones work just fine. Come out with new products
> (software, operating systems, etc.) that are hard to use with old
> ones, to force customers to upgrade.
Totally different. Not enough suppliers => no real choice or a very limited
choice for the consumer. And, of course, cross-selling (a new PC with an OS
already installed)
> > I hope you don't work in Marketing :-)
>
> Why? Because I actually understand how it works?
Everyone think they know how marketing works. But it's a proven fact that
NOBODY does.
>
> Look at the reaction so far. The best responses have been "maybe this
> won't be so bad." It doesn't take a genius to see that's not good
> marketing.
Old Players have an aversion to change. But there has to be change,
otherwise our game would end up in stasis. Do you prefer that?
Jeroen
<Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2787fc.12558496@news...
> On 5 Jul 2002 05:29:06 -0700, joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote:
>
> >jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message
news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
> >
> >The only changes I don't get are those to Hostile Takeover and TOGP.
> >IMO, HT already was the better card (You only need a 2 cap Ventrue to
> >'bleed' your prey during your Master Phase) But it's TOGP (which needs
> >a lot more set-up) that has gotten the worst change. Maybe the
> >Justicars in this set are a bit smaller... If they use the clan novel
> >characters, the Tremere Justicar might be a 5 or 6 cap.
> >
>
> Those 2 changes made the most sense to me actually.
> Very annoying cards.
>
OK, let met re-state what I said.
Changes to HT and TOGP had to be made. The part that I don't get is why
TOGP (the most difficult one to play) is hamstrung more that HT. If it was
up to me, I would have changed them just the other way around. Making TOGP
only target 7caps and lower en making HT only playable once per game.
Jeroen
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote in message news:<3d268732.12357030@news>...
> On 4 Jul 2002 22:13:46 -0700, jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote:
>
>
> >
> >White Wolf is a business. It wants one thing: to make money. More
> >specifically in regards to VTES, to make you give it money for more
> >cards.
> >
>
> Making money requires a good product and a customer base. Screw with
> either and that will threaten the bottomline.
We'll have to see what the new set is really like, but so far what
I've seen indicates they are threatening the bottom line quite
effectively.
> >
> >Obviously, it is in White Wolf's best interest to make people stop
> >wanting to have old cards. How does it accomplish this?
> >
> Reprint the majority of the Jyhad/Vtes set with a few new cards and
> vamps as well as updating and erratting a few more cards,and thats
> about it.
That's just it. Merely reprinting a bunch of old cards wouldn't make
people buy the new cards. But breaking a significant percentage of
deck archetypes (most Prince decks, Presence with Majesty, etc.) by
changing the text of commonly used and non-imbalanced cards will,
especially if the only way to rebuild them is with the new 15 cards,
some of which may fill similar roles to the old versions of the
changed cards.
I'm speculating here. The rumors of text changes might be just rumors,
and nothing significant has changed. But no one at White Wolf has
denied that those cards are changing, and I don't see why they
wouldn't do so unless there is some truth to it. Maybe they have their
reasons, but if people are getting upset about rumors, it seems to me
that it'd be good PR to quell the rumors. Failing to do so just lends
them credibility.
Also, the Game Trade article mentioned that many cards have extensive
text changes. Unless the article is wrong, that proves that at least
some old cards are going to be significantly different.
> Not put the whole game into a blender and press Frappe.
We'll know soon enough.
JSpektr
jspektr wrote:
> I'm speculating here. The rumors of text changes might be just rumors,
> and nothing significant has changed. But no one at White Wolf has
> denied that those cards are changing, and I don't see why they
> wouldn't do so unless there is some truth to it. Maybe they have their
> reasons, but if people are getting upset about rumors, it seems to me
> that it'd be good PR to quell the rumors. Failing to do so just lends
> them credibility.
Clue: denying rumors that aren't true and not denying rumors that are
true allows anyone with an IQ above that of reheated swamp water to
"scrye" the truth.
Also, answering speculation before the scheduled release of information in
a way that attempts to preserve that release schedule as much as possible is
activity that some players out there call lying (at least on some web forums,
if not here).
So, since (at least some) players feel sleighted when we answer what we
can and remain silent about the rest, and since answering some and not
answering others can lead to premature divulging of information, it is
avoided.
Sensible players should always check there sources, anyhow.
A list reported to have been conveyed verbally from an unnamed source to a user
posting under a hotmail account holder doesn't inspire confidence. Possible
explanations: the poster knew/suspected that the information was priviledged and
should not be posted on a public forum, or the poster knew/suspected that the
information was not reliable. Possibly others. Decide for yourself how much
weight to give it. Or ask the poster to cite his sources, if you need
additional assurances.
WW will post the official list of reprint updates when it is scheduled to be
posted.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D275019...@white-wolf.com>...
> jspektr wrote:
> > I'm speculating here. The rumors of text changes might be just rumors,
> > and nothing significant has changed. But no one at White Wolf has
> > denied that those cards are changing, and I don't see why they
> > wouldn't do so unless there is some truth to it. Maybe they have their
> > reasons, but if people are getting upset about rumors, it seems to me
> > that it'd be good PR to quell the rumors. Failing to do so just lends
> > them credibility.
>
> Clue: denying rumors that aren't true and not denying rumors that are
> true allows anyone with an IQ above that of reheated swamp water to
> "scrye" the truth.
Clue: any official rep with an IQ above that of reheated swamp water
can couch their answers in such a was this is not the case.
Personally, I think you are in fact capable of doing so, and are using
the answer above to deflect from your real reasons for not releasing a
bit of truth to calm people down. I don't know what those reasons
might be, they could just be pure stubborness or some clever marketing
strategy. Either way, I don't think you're being completely honest.
You could make a post explaining that while some card texts will
change, you do not think it will change the fundamental nature of the
game (unless that isn't true). I think that is one of the main
concerns people have, that the game will no longer play the same
because staple cards have been altered. That would not reveal anything
significant about what the new text will actually be.
You could make a post saying that the cards listed will not have the
changes listed (unless that isn't true). That still reveals nothing
about what is actually changing. You could even say *some* of them
aren't changing, or aren't changing as rumored, and it would still
help.
Or, and really this is a last, desperate resort, White Wolf could move
into the new millenium and accept that the internet exists, and news
moves a bit faster these days. Once the rumors start flying, refusing
to release information you plan to release anyway doesn't benefit
White Wolf in any way. Oh no, we'll find out Majesty has been changed
(or not) a week ahead of time! Mercy, the entire marketing plan will
be in shambles! That seems a bit silly, don't you think?
JSpektr
> Or, and really this is a last, desperate resort, White Wolf could move
> into the new millenium and accept that the internet exists, and news
> moves a bit faster these days. Once the rumors start flying, refusing
> to release information you plan to release anyway doesn't benefit
> White Wolf in any way. Oh no, we'll find out Majesty has been changed
> (or not) a week ahead of time! Mercy, the entire marketing plan will
> be in shambles! That seems a bit silly, don't you think?
>
> JSpektr
Want to know what I thinks a bit silly?
Ya, it's you.
Why is it that this news group is errupting into chaos over the
release schedule White-wolf has adopted?
The information is going to be released when they feel it is
appropriate, not before. It's not a conspiricy, it's their buisness.
If you don't like it, find a hobby that doesn't pend on release
dates. Think frisby, no high tension release dates there.
The positive thing about this is that you as the consumer can choose
to suport or not support the company that creates this "game" as you
chose. If you feel that they have made a bad buisness decision, don't
buy their product.
I understand that you have pumped thousands of dollars and hours into
this "hobby" but this does not give you a say in how they run their
buisness. Perhaps if you had pumped that money and time into stock,
but that isn't at issue.
Be patient, all will be released with time. Then you can bitch.
In message <196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D275019...@white-wolf.com>...>> jspektr wrote:
>> > I'm speculating here. The rumors of text changes might be just rumors,
>> > and nothing significant has changed. But no one at White Wolf has
>> > denied that those cards are changing, and I don't see why they
>> > wouldn't do so unless there is some truth to it. Maybe they have their
>> > reasons, but if people are getting upset about rumors, it seems to me
>> > that it'd be good PR to quell the rumors. Failing to do so just lends
>> > them credibility.
>>
>> Clue: denying rumors that aren't true and not denying rumors that are
>> true allows anyone with an IQ above that of reheated swamp water to
>> "scrye" the truth.>
>Clue: any official rep with an IQ above that of reheated swamp water
>can couch their answers in such a was this is not the case.
Really? I can assure you that the only way to maintain actual secrecy
in cases like this is either to remain completely silent, or to directly
lie by denying everything. Those of us who are capable of putting two
and two together and who have more than a passing familiarity with
semantics are MORE than able to assemble the truth from a barrage of
half-truths and half-denials.
If nothing else, I could post 3-4 different rumors from seemingly "real"
accounts via Google, and the form in which someone denied them all would
tell me rapidly what I could expect to see. At a bare minimum, posting
the denial tells me what ISN'T going to happen. Posting nothing is the
ONLY correct response.
>You could make a post saying that the cards listed will not have the
>changes listed (unless that isn't true). That still reveals nothing
>about what is actually changing. You could even say *some* of them
>aren't changing, or aren't changing as rumored, and it would still
>help.
And it would still tell someone plenty. Especially after I grab onto
the fact that you're actually responding to rumors, and use that
information to post other, different rumors under the names of two
different people "arguing" with each other.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 06:15:19 GMT, "Peter Oh" <ohb...@wam.umd.edu>
wrote:
>> You know there was absolutely no good reason to add so many new
>> vampires. A few per clan would've been sufficient in addition to
>> reprints of the primary vampires. WW decided to flood us with cam
>> vamps, and the '3' is their bandaid solution to the problem they
>> created by doing so.>
>Wait a minute. Rewind. You are saying that White Wolf went about their
>business and made vampires, and as they went about this, they reached a
>certain number, and then they realized that they fucked up, made too many
>vampires and then had to cover their tracks? This is why you think the 3
>rule was instituted? And you've arrived at this conclusion how exactly?
>
No I think they did this intentionally, so that CE would stand on its
own as a game. And that clearly was their intention as they have
stated as such.
Best way to do this? Put 100 new vamps in it and require you to play
them over the old cam vamps.
In short, the grouping problem is one created by them. Nobody wanted
all these vampires, they wanted reprints of vtes/jyhad with a few new
cards and vamps added to the mix, much like Sabaat War was to Sabaat.
T
[ quoted text not captured ]
I think the majority of players, here at least, view TOGP as the more
powerful card. The losing controller gets nothing. And you can have
2cap justicars as well.
T
PAUL...@HOTMAIL.COM (Sacha) wrote in message news:<d072c0.020706...@posting.google.com>...
> Want to know what I thinks a bit silly?
>
> Ya, it's you.
Or maybe it's silly to forget to actually read the post you're
replying to?
> The information is going to be released when they feel it is
> appropriate, not before. It's not a conspiricy, it's their buisness.
> If you don't like it, find a hobby that doesn't pend on release
> dates. Think frisby, no high tension release dates there.
No mention of conspiracy in my post. I did mention how stubbornly
sticking to a release schedule when the information has already been
leaked seems pointless and counter productive.
I didn't say anywhere that the release schedule makes me upset or
makes me not like the game. Those are complete fabrications on your
part. I did say I questioned the wisdom of their not releasing
information for damage control. I'm not sure how you twisted that into
needing to play frisbee.
> I understand that you have pumped thousands of dollars and hours into
> this "hobby" but this does not give you a say in how they run their
> buisness. Perhaps if you had pumped that money and time into stock,
> but that isn't at issue.
I certainly haven't pumped thousands of dollars into it, but you've
already invented all kinds of stuff I didn't do or say, so why stop
now?
I'm a customer. No company has to listen to their customers. The ones
that survive, however, do.
(It's funny how people on this newsgroup get upset when you criticise
the game or White Wolf, then claim *you* are the one getting upset.
Pointing out that something doesn't seem right or done in the best way
does not equal being angry or unhappy)
JSpektr
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<udmfiu0btm0n59ss9...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:> >You could make a post saying that the cards listed will not have the
> >changes listed (unless that isn't true). That still reveals nothing
> >about what is actually changing. You could even say *some* of them
> >aren't changing, or aren't changing as rumored, and it would still
> >help.
>
> And it would still tell someone plenty. Especially after I grab onto
> the fact that you're actually responding to rumors, and use that
> information to post other, different rumors under the names of two
> different people "arguing" with each other.
Let's look at the facts:
1. The cards are done, the changes exist
2. White Wolf is planning on releasing the information
3. Some potential buyers have decided not to preorder due to
uncertainty over the changes
What possible benefit does it serve, then, to not move up the release
of the information? If the pre-order deadlines at some distributors
are coming up, waiting as planned will not get those pre-orders back.
Waiting will not calm potential buyers, and it will certainly not
increase chances of selling lots of product.
The only reasons I can see for waiting are:
1. Stubborness.
2. The information release has been timed to coincide with other
marketing events, such as magazine articles, advertisements or
personal appearances.
I could totally understand it if #2 was the case. Then the surprise of
the official information coming out serves to back up the excitement
of some other event. I'm not aware of White Wolf releasing information
in coordination with marketing campaign events in the past, however,
so I suspect it's really #1.
If someone can think of other reasons for waiting, great. I'd like to
hear them, maybe it will make sense of all this.
JSpektr
<Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d2da123.5080969@news...
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 06:15:19 GMT, "Peter Oh" <ohb...@wam.umd.edu>
> wrote:
>
>
> >> You know there was absolutely no good reason to add so many new
> >> vampires. A few per clan would've been sufficient in addition to
> >> reprints of the primary vampires. WW decided to flood us with cam
> >> vamps, and the '3' is their bandaid solution to the problem they
> >> created by doing so.
> >
> >Wait a minute. Rewind. You are saying that White Wolf went about their
> >business and made vampires, and as they went about this, they reached a
> >certain number, and then they realized that they fucked up, made too many
> >vampires and then had to cover their tracks? This is why you think the 3
> >rule was instituted? And you've arrived at this conclusion how exactly?
> >
>
> No I think they did this intentionally, so that CE would stand on its
> own as a game. And that clearly was their intention as they have
> stated as such.
>
Fine fair enough. Confusion from your use of the phrase "bandaid solution"
as I took it to mean something else.
> Best way to do this? Put 100 new vamps in it and require you to play
> them over the old cam vamps.
>
Can you point me to the source that says that? Where does it say anywhere
that you are required to play with the new vamps over the old base set
vamps? It does not say that anywhere that I can find, nor is the
implication made anywhere. Lets say that I want to make a new deck with
Baltimore Purge, Weighted Walking Stick, Will of the Council, the Zoning
Board and Tension in the Ranks. Guess what? I still can use Emerson
Bridges, Sir Walter Nash, and Timothy Crowley to do that. It doesn't say
anywhere that in order to use Baltimore Purge, I have to use Marcus Vitel
(or any other Group 3 vampire) in my crypt.
> In short, the grouping problem is one created by them. Nobody wanted
> all these vampires, they wanted reprints of vtes/jyhad with a few new
> cards and vamps added to the mix, much like Sabaat War was to Sabaat.
Nobody wanted all these vampires? Sure no one was screaming on the news
group or Prince List "We need more vampires!" But under your proposed plan
of sticking in a few library cards and only a few vamps here and there, how
do you propose that this New Base Set sell to veteran players? If WW were
to only add 30 new vampires, do you think any of the veterans out there
would throw a couple hundred bucks for the sake of 15 new library cards and
30 new vampires? No, I would venture not.
There had to be a high number of new vampires in this set or it wouldn't
have been feasible to go to print. White Wolf isn't going to spend
thousands of dollars on a new set that has minimal appeal to veteran players
even if their primary goal is to attract new ones.
Futhermore, the grouping rule is not a problem created by White Wolf. It is
a problem created by the very nature of the game. White Wolf is being
proactive in trying to deal with the problem now as opposed to later on down
the road. The only feasible ways to avoid the problem of custom crypting
entirely is to either a) never ever print another new vampire again or b)
print vampires with uncommon or crappy discipline spreads which would never
see use anyway, so what's the point?
If they put more new library cards in, that would detract from the number of
valuable reprints they could put in the set. Then it would cease to be a
Base Set and it would not serve its primary purpose of attracting new
players.
Peteo
jsp...@sprynet.com writes:
>That's just it. Merely reprinting a bunch of old cards wouldn't make
>people buy the new cards. But breaking a significant percentage of
>deck archetypes (most Prince decks, Presence with Majesty, etc.) by
>changing the text of commonly used and non-imbalanced cards will,
>especially if the only way to rebuild them is with the new 15 cards,
>some of which may fill similar roles to the old versions of the
>changed cards.
Majesty and 5th tradition have needed fixing from the get-go. How to
fix them (and some other overpowered cards) has been under discussion
since 1995. Check the archives. If they did get fixed, I'll get LSJ a bottle
of good champagne. You'll still have weenie presence; it just won't win
half the tourneys in LA. You'll still have prince decks; you'll just see
some other kinds of Camarilla decks as well.
The crypt incompatibility by set is an essential change to avert escalation
and to keep a larger set of vampires in circulation. There will be problems
when future expansions get printed (e.g. future Camarilla expansions must
either favor base set 3 with a 4 grouping or escalate with a 2). However,
I don't see a better way. It's a great way to give new players a fairer shot,
since there's one out-of-print set they don't need for a top flight
deck. Pity it's the one easiest to get, but that's the way the cookie
crumbles, due to WotC's print runs.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
"Peter Oh" <ohb...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in message news:<r17W8.85149$UT.57...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> White Wolf isn't going to spend
> thousands of dollars on a new set that has minimal appeal to veteran players
> even if their primary goal is to attract new ones.
Really? You could have fooled me.
JSpektr
On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 02:45:43 GMT, "Peter Oh" <ohb...@wam.umd.edu>
wrote:
>>> Best way to do this? Put 100 new vamps in it and require you to play
>> them over the old cam vamps.
>>>
>Can you point me to the source that says that?
Let me clarify...if you buy any cards from CE and mix them in with old
decks, you have a lot of useless CE vampires you cant use. If you do
wish to use them, you can use only them vs the jyhad/vtes cam vamps.
This is a simple way to force people to adapt to this 'new' edition.
>>> In short, the grouping problem is one created by them. Nobody wanted
>> all these vampires, they wanted reprints of vtes/jyhad with a few new
>> cards and vamps added to the mix, much like Sabaat War was to Sabaat.>
>Nobody wanted all these vampires? Sure no one was screaming on the news
>group or Prince List "We need more vampires!" But under your proposed plan
>of sticking in a few library cards and only a few vamps here and there, how
>do you propose that this New Base Set sell to veteran players? If WW were
>to only add 30 new vampires, do you think any of the veterans out there
>would throw a couple hundred bucks for the sake of 15 new library cards and
>30 new vampires? No, I would venture not.
>
I'm actually surprised that there were so few new library cards.
Someting like 30 vamps and 30 library cards would be a good start.
Look at Sabaat War as an example, it had plenty of reprints both
minion and vampire, and it sold just fine.
I thought they would do the same with CE but apparently not, to my
disapointment.
T
<Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d2da123.5080969@news...
> In short, the grouping problem is one created by them. Nobody wanted
> all these vampires, they wanted reprints of vtes/jyhad with a few new
> cards and vamps added to the mix, much like Sabaat War was to Sabaat.
I did! Me! (raises hand, waves)
I like new cards. I like new vampires. I like new sets. I
don't mind if they can't be mixed with the original-Jyhad-set
vampires. New stuff is cool.
The only thing I would've really liked in a "Sabbat War style"
Camarilla set would be the uncommon Freak Drives. Other than
that, I've got plenty of "old" cards already. *Especially*
vampires.
Josh
easily pleased
In message <196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>, jspektr
<jsp...@sprynet.com> writes:
>No mention of conspiracy in my post. I did mention how stubbornly
>sticking to a release schedule when the information has already been
>leaked seems pointless and counter productive.
Bear in mind that a company placing things into the public domain can
often have effects upon Non Disclosure Agreements.
--
James Coupe
PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
13D7E668C3695D623D5D
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
> I could totally understand it if #2 was the case. Then the surprise of> the official information coming out serves to back up the excitement
> of some other event. I'm not aware of White Wolf releasing information
> in coordination with marketing campaign events in the past, however,
> so I suspect it's really #1.
>
> If someone can think of other reasons for waiting, great. I'd like to
> hear them, maybe it will make sense of all this.
Well, I ain't no CCG marketing exec, but I have been told that too
much availability of information about a new set before release
tends to depress sales. That is, people are more interested/
excited about the new stuff when they don't know exactly what
they're going to be getting.
This is why, as I understand it, WW didn't release spoiler lists
for previous sets before they came out (or even when they came
out, if I remember right - more like a month later).
Josh
best before 7/10/2002