Hold It!

so...from the WoD, what are the Holds from anarchs supposed to represent? Places? Powers? Kung-Fu moves? also....what do people think of them, vtes wise? which are the 'best', what kind of deck would you put each one in? I have chiram's hold in a gangrel/ravnos combat deck, due to my lack of ability to deal with 'combat ends' through other means (only own one dog pack). do people think chiram's is best offensively or defensively? or is it's flexibility what's best about it? what about the other Holds? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > so...from the WoD, what are the Holds from anarchs supposed to > represent? Places? Powers? Kung-Fu moves? Michaelis was the Ventrue Justicar that Kemintiri killed and then impersonated for a while. You can see how popular that made her by reading Kemintiri's card text :) Not sure who Cold Amber, Chiram or Regarhagan are. I'm assuming they are also meant to represent the influences of very old vampires ie "Methuselahs" Maybe whoever designed them can speak out? (Doubt it) > also....what do people think of them, vtes wise? which are the 'best', > what kind of deck would you put each one in? I haven't used any yet. They don't seem that great to me. I like the idea of hosing someone else's most commonly used cards, but it doesn't cost them much to get around the bad effects. Look at Chiram's Hold. First you need to wait for them to discard a Majesty. Then you need to block one of the Majesty-cheese-users vampires. Even then all it does is make them pay an extra blood... woohoo. And to add insult to your own injuries, all they need do is discard *one Majesty* and the card is gone. I imagine *you* will probably spend more precious resources on this card than they will. They also seem to have higher opportunity costs than most cards... and you *know* that you will draw it at exactly the wrong time. Oh well, the idea certainly has potential. > I have chiram's hold in a gangrel/ravnos combat deck, due to my lack > of ability to deal with 'combat ends' through other means (only own > one dog pack). do people think chiram's is best offensively or > defensively? or is it's flexibility what's best about it? You have to block them to use it so I would imagine it is better as defensive. You're better off not worrying about combat ends and just focus on being persistent. Eventually they will run out. We hope. Cheers, WES

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 03:51:38 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> scrawled: >They don't seem that great to me. I like the idea of hosing someone else's >most commonly used cards, but it doesn't cost them much to get around the >bad effects. Look at Chiram's Hold. First you need to wait for them to >discard a Majesty. Then you need to block one of the Majesty-cheese-users >vampires. Even then all it does is make them pay an extra blood... woohoo. holy crap. i didn't even notice the bit where you need to be in combat with an acting minion. that sucks. the extra blood can really make a difference, though....especially over several majesties. >And to add insult to your own injuries, all they need do is discard *one >Majesty* and the card is gone. I imagine *you* will probably spend more >precious resources on this card than they will. then that's one less majesty they have to play against you, which is good. i'm hoping the chiramly held methuselah might not want to 'waste' their combat cards to get rid of the chiram's....and then the cost will bite them in the arse. a quick qn though: i assume the 'discard the card to get rid of the hold' thing is an extra discard you're allowed to take, and you still get your regular discard? or is it if you discard a copy of the chosen combat card as your normal discard, chiram's is burned? >They also seem to have higher opportunity costs than most cards... and you >*know* that you will draw it at exactly the wrong time. but it is very flexible, and in a deck that tends to block anyway and has plenty of blood to spare it might be worth 1 or 2 slots....if just for amusement value... >Oh well, the idea certainly has potential. agreed. >> I have chiram's hold in a gangrel/ravnos combat deck, due to my lack >> of ability to deal with 'combat ends' through other means (only own >> one dog pack). do people think chiram's is best offensively or >> defensively? or is it's flexibility what's best about it? > >You have to block them to use it so I would imagine it is better as >defensive. > >You're better off not worrying about combat ends and just focus on being >persistent. Eventually they will run out. We hope. hmmm....i just re-read the text...again. another qn: do allies playing cards as vampires also pay an additional with chiram's hold? (assuming the card placed on chiram's was a discipline based combat card that the ally can play 'as a vampire') >Cheers, >WES ta for responding. some good food for thought. at the very least, if the holds do start seeing a lot of play, they will encourage diversification of cards. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > a quick qn though: i assume the 'discard the card to get rid of the > hold' thing is an extra discard you're allowed to take, and you still > get your regular discard? > or is it if you discard a copy of the chosen combat card as your > normal discard, chiram's is burned? The former. > another qn: > do allies playing cards as vampires also pay an additional with > chiram's hold? (assuming the card placed on chiram's was a discipline > based combat card that the ally can play 'as a vampire') No. Similarly, an ally wouldn't benefit from having Ankara Citadel for the same reason. [LSJ 02-MAY-2002] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:49:32 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: [snip] >> another qn: >> do allies playing cards as vampires also pay an additional with >> chiram's hold? (assuming the card placed on chiram's was a discipline >> based combat card that the ally can play 'as a vampire') > >No. Similarly, an ally wouldn't benefit from having Ankara Citadel for >the same reason. [LSJ 02-MAY-2002] ah. ahah. because the discipline card the ally plays counts the ally as a vampire (from the ally's text), but the chiram's hold doesn't count the ally as a vampire because there is no text to tell it to, right? (head seems to be finally wrapping around these things) [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > They don't seem that great to me. I like the idea of hosing someone else's > most commonly used cards, but it doesn't cost them much to get around the > bad effects. Look at Chiram's Hold. First you need to wait for them to > discard a Majesty. Then you need to block one of the Majesty-cheese-users > vampires. Even then all it does is make them pay an extra blood... woohoo. > And to add insult to your own injuries, all they need do is discard *one > Majesty* and the card is gone. I imagine *you* will probably spend more > precious resources on this card than they will. > > They also seem to have higher opportunity costs than most cards... and you > *know* that you will draw it at exactly the wrong time. > > Oh well, the idea certainly has potential. Hmmm... Chiram's hold actually looks the best of the bunch, since there is little oppertunity cost wasted in getting it into play... if you use the right sort of deck. Since you can get it into play before range in any combat and it only costs a blood (not pool like some of them!) you can use it pretty easily in a combat deck. I instantly thought of two clans that could benefit from it: 1) Assamites. Combine with Thin Blood and Wave of Lethargy to nuke 2 - 5 blood off a vampire by the time strikes are sorted. That pretty much empties, or at least deflates, most vampires. If they can't pay, you can hit them hard. If they can pay, Psyche (3 cards to torporise most vampires). Trick is blocking a vampire with Assamites... not so easy. 2) Tzimisce. Actually, all Animalism combat, but mostly the Tzimisce. Once again, the Tzimisce score a critical hit with this card in combination with Terror Frenzy. Terror Frenzy means all combat cards cost more, Chirams Hold means their key combat card costs even more. You hit back for agg and watch them burn. No trouble blocking either! It should also work with the likes of Skin Trap and Carrion Crows for +1 pain. Chiram's Hold could also be useful working back against other combat decks (e.g. Potence / Celerity, Animalism, Cel Guns, etc) who are likely to go down with a struggle - hit their key card (Blue, Immortal Grapple, etc) and watch them sweat for the rest of the turn. <snip> DH

On 26 Jun 2003 08:41:38 -0700, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) scrawled: [snip] >Chiram's Hold could also be useful working back against other combat >decks (e.g. Potence / Celerity, Animalism, Cel Guns, etc) who are >likely to go down with a struggle - hit their key card (Blue, Immortal >Grapple, etc) and watch them sweat for the rest of the turn. heh. a card called Blue. :) (then your opponents can say "that blue!") sorry. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: > Look at Chiram's Hold. First you need to wait for them to > discard a Majesty. Then you need to block one of the Majesty-cheese-users > vampires. Even then all it does is make them pay an extra blood... woohoo. > And to add insult to your own injuries, all they need do is discard *one > Majesty* and the card is gone. Gotta disagree here. Chirams Hold is fabulous. It does not require, as you note, that you block, only that you are in combat, thus in any deck with CEL it can be played after a Psyche. Also, yes they can remove it by discarding another copy of the card, but this cannot be done until their own discard phase, which could very easily be a turn around the table. Furthermore, in a deck where s:ce or skin of steel is the primary combat defense, you can't really aford to be discarding them without playing them in combat, especially against an opponent that's playing dedicated combat. Think of the effect that it has on a card like Coma? Also, in a close-range Assamite combat deck this is an amazing card, especially when paired with Thin Blood. -Matt

> Gotta disagree here. Chirams Hold is fabulous. It does not require, as > you note, that you block, only that you are in combat, thus in any > deck with CEL it can be played after a Psyche. Also, yes they can "Requires a vampire in combat with an *acting minion*" Granted this doesn't quite mean you have to have blocked but it comes pretty close.

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<okpkfvcavhfc049kt...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] best hold is the reaction hold. Think 'bout deflection/telepatic misdirections, wakes and forceds. Almost everyone plays 'em and paying 2 for a deflect... or one to stand up is so hard. Every deck plays reacts, but not all decks play actions/combat cards so other holds IMHO are less useful, but not significantly. Iñaki, Prince of Barcelona.-

I'm trying the various "hold" cards out at the moment, and I'm not that impressed by them to be honest. The only one that has shown itself to be useful is the combat one, and then I wouldn't include more 2 or 3 in a deck anyway. ------------------------- Cambridge by Night. http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

>but this cannot be done until their own discard phase, which could very >easily be a turn around the table. Furthermore, in a deck where s:ce or skin >of steel is the primary combat defense, you can't really aford to be >discarding them without playing them in combat, especially against an opponent >that's playing dedicated combat. Think of the effect that it has on a >card like Coma? In addition, they're ditchinig combat cards that WILL be useful, and probably necessary, for them to play, instead of anything that's clearing up their hand jam. THat's a huge opportunity cost. You've got two masters, both of which cost pook you can't afford, and a Majesty. Do you ditch one of the masters that you'll never play, upping your effective hand size by one, or do you ditch the Majesty to get rid of the hold? That's a touch call. The hold adds up over a few combats, especially with Majesty and most of the other S:CE cards costing blood now to begin with. But watching your hand size shrink as cards you'll never play creep into your hand while at the same time getting rid of a hold that could well be put back out by your predator or prey before your next turn... Fanboy

> In addition, they're ditchinig combat cards that WILL be useful, and > probably necessary, for them to play, instead of anything that's > clearing up their hand jam. THat's a huge opportunity cost. You've > got two masters, both of which cost pook you can't afford, and a > Majesty. Do you ditch one of the masters that you'll never play, > upping your effective hand size by one, or do you ditch the Majesty to > get rid of the hold? See LSJ's post above. You get to dispose of the hold as an *extra discard*

In message <gcplfvca48udk5mto...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes: >ah. ahah. because the discipline card the ally plays counts the ally >as a vampire (from the ally's text), but the chiram's hold doesn't >count the ally as a vampire because there is no text to tell it to, >right? Only cards an ally plays ever treat the ally as a vampire, in certain limited circumstances. Everything else treats the ally as an ally. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

In message <hwr5gz21bo4b$.ftwz8k7ux6la$.d...@40tude.net>, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes: >"Requires a vampire in combat with an *acting minion*" Granted this doesn't >quite mean you have to have blocked but it comes pretty close. Or have been rushed. Then you are in combat with an acting minion. And rush isn't altogether unpopular. Being able to put an Immortal Grapple on the hold may mean that, for one blood and a card, you get to survive the combat. An interesting combination with Majesty (or similar) ensues. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <MlBKa.24845$3d.14394@sccrnsc02>, Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes: >Regarhagen's Hold can make deflections, or intercept cards, cost an >additional blood, which is really helpful. It depends on the intercept cards. Quite a few of the Animalism decks will have some permanents, and most of the Auspex decks tend to have a variety of intercept cards - flowing from the one named intercept card per action per minion restriction. > Cost to get rid of this >one is two master phases actions >and two pool. That's huge. It's not bad at all. The other obvious option and perhaps more powerful one, to my mind, is Wake with Evening's Freshness or similar. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Regarhagen's Hold can make deflections, <sniped> > > It's not bad at all. > > > The other obvious option and perhaps more powerful one, to my mind, is > Wake with Evening's Freshness or similar. > Have used it in a palla grande deck and its effects are awesome. Guess that in setite decks will also become great, with a form of corruption in play. [ quoted text not captured ]