New Camarilla Design

So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: -Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. That all the disciplines are on the left of the card is weird, but again, isn't going to kill anyone. I find the change in clan background a bit off--the Brujah background looks like a Nosferatu background at first glance. Odd. -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get to see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "I am the autumn in the scarlet I am the make-up on your eyes" -Kim Deal

Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote: : So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: : -Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly : jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. That all the : disciplines are on the left of the card is weird, but again, isn't going to : kill anyone. I find the change in clan background a bit off--the Brujah : background looks like a Nosferatu background at first glance. Odd. I found that the green left bar seems a bit awkward, especially when it's mostly empty as is the case in Concealed Weapon, which has no cost nor requirements. There is a certain scruffy look in the old layout which seems to be lost in the minion card layout. The layout in Concealed Weapon reminds me of layouts in other CCGs (like OtE) where too clear lines make the card look a bit 'cheap' in some peculiar way. If I knew anything about layouts at all, I might be able to express myself more clearly :) With old round shape for the character portraits in the new vampire cards they look quite nice. : -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get to : see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... ..or in Celerity decks which have so far been nicely contained because of their inherent lack of stealth (excluding Assamites with guns, of course)? With the change, I might even give the !Salubri melee deck a try though.. I don't think anything will fall apart any more than it has so far, though :) //T

> : -Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly > : jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. That all the > : disciplines are on the left of the card is weird, but again, isn't going to > : kill anyone. I find the change in clan background a bit off--the Brujah > : background looks like a Nosferatu background at first glance. Odd. Yeah, let's hope we don't see it well because of the net resolution, the new look is nice but I liked the backgrounds !!! > : -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get to > : see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... Why, they couldn't equip before ? With the change, I might even give the !Salubri melee deck a > try though.. Yes, and I think that's one of the things the card was conceived for.

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:B945CA6D.51C5%PD...@bigplanet.com... > So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: > > -Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly > jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. That all the > disciplines are on the left of the card is weird, but again, isn't going to > kill anyone. I find the change in clan background a bit off--the Brujah > background looks like a Nosferatu background at first glance. Odd. And another thing. What's with that '3' just above the word 'Camarilla' on the new vamp. Or is it just me that sees that? ;) John

> > : -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get > > : to see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... > Why, they couldn't equip before ? Yes, but it's much *easier* for them to equip. Before, the action could be blocked. Now, it can't be. Sorrow --- "Just once I'd like a childhood memory I don't have to repress." - Malcolm

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:B945CA6D.51C5%PD...@bigplanet.com... > So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: > > -Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly > jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. Initially, I had some real problems with the design. Namely, it was all the wasted space on the left hand boarder. Those symbols are taking up more room by covering up 1/8 of the card with that boarder. That means less room for the picture and less room for text at the bottom of the card. The disciplines may be easier to read but the specials, which are increasing in occurence, are much, much smaller. I think that is the trade off that they are making, big discipline for small specials. Also, even though the picture is the least important variable game-wise, it is the most important variable aesthetics-wise (and no I am not trolling for the art crowd to start another flame war), and it has been shrunk, if all proportions are to remain the same, by 1/8 as well. The picture helps identify the card. There is a ton of information jammed onto every card; this we all know. I guess this is an attempt to organise that information. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

> And another thing. What's with that '3' just above the word 'Camarilla' on > the new vamp. Or is it just me that sees that? ;) I saw it, too. You know, not that I'm a rumor monger or that I enjoy throwing out wild speculative theories :p but in the new Mt:G Online client, that's what it looks like when it shows how much damage has been applied to a creature. Not that I think that's what it is. Just saying.... hehehe Sorrow --- "Our fathers were our models for God. If they bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to be prepared for the possibility that God does not like you." - Tyler Durden

On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:55:49 +0200, Sorrow wrote: > I saw it, too. > You know, not that I'm a rumor monger or that I enjoy throwing out wild > speculative theories :p but in the new Mt:G Online client, that's what > it looks like when it shows how much damage has been applied to a > creature. Not that I think that's what it is. Just saying.... hehehe Now that's a *wild* guess. ;) My personal theory is that the vampires have numbers, just like pokemons, so the kids can actually say "I have Broojah number 3, will you trade your Ventroo number 9 ?", and also all kinds of "wee!" and "yeepee!". :) Francois

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news: rTZT8.1184$mp2.9...@newshog.newsread.com... > > > : -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get > > > : to see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... > > Why, they couldn't equip before ? > > Yes, but it's much *easier* for them to equip. Before, the action could be > blocked I wouldn't block them !!!! :-) But then, I've even seen (often) BBs and Brujahs blocked, even if more often than not the guy who did it regretted it, except when his name was... Lazvérinus !!

> I wouldn't block them !!!! :-) I would > But then, I've even seen (often) BBs and Brujahs blocked, even if more often > than not the guy who did it regretted it, except when his name was... > Lazvérinus !! Sure. But would you rather get beat down with hand strikes (which, depending on your own combat hand, you can avoid) or with augmented hand strikes? I'd rather have the Garou wailing on me for 4 instead of 6, thank you... :p Sorrow --- "I'll be watching the news. If anything is vandalized or explodes or catches on fire, 'X' is going to equal me kicking your ass!" - Red Forman

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:B945CA6D.51C5%PD...@bigplanet.com... > So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: > -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get to > see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... A Garou with a gun only gains "harder to get killed by close- range combat decks", though. I think the thing to worry about with Garou is probably going to be Pokers or Bang Nakhs: more damage for no cost or lots more damage for 2 more pool. And War Ghouls that don't have to equip to get Meat Hooks. I am afraid... (they're bad enough when they *do* have to equip to get the Meat Hooks!) Josh wee cowrin' tim'rous beastie (or something like that)

> Initially, I had some real problems with the design. Namely, it was all the > wasted space on the left hand boarder. Those symbols are taking up more > room by covering up 1/8 of the card with that boarder. That means less room > for the picture and less room for text at the bottom of the card. The > disciplines may be easier to read but the specials, which are increasing in > occurence, are much, much smaller. I think that is the trade off that they > are making, big discipline for small specials. Indeed. And at least in the current cards, the discipline symbols were using space that was going otherwise unused. However, the new attribute bar is encroaching on space that was actually being put to good use. *sigh* Sorrow -still not quite growing on me... [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija wrote: > -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get to > see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... Guns? Naah...Wooden Stakes will be much more nasty since they don't inflict agg damage, but they do send the victim to torpor. Same goes for War Ghouls... I do like that non-unique and non-aggro has been specified. Muddles won't be pulling an Ivory Bow out of nowhere any time soon. Regards, Noal

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:zU0U8.1203$mp2.9...@newshog.newsread.com... > > Initially, I had some real problems with the design. Namely, it was all the > > wasted space on the left hand boarder. Those symbols are taking up more > > room by covering up 1/8 of the card with that boarder. That means less room > > for the picture and less room for text at the bottom of the card. The > > disciplines may be easier to read but the specials, which are increasing in > > occurence, are much, much smaller. I think that is the trade off that they > > are making, big discipline for small specials. > > Indeed. And at least in the current cards, the discipline symbols were using > space that was going otherwise unused. However, the new attribute bar is > encroaching on space that was actually being put to good use. > *sigh* Exactly, and as has been said prior in this thread, that attribute bar makes it go from appearing gothic to techno. Is goth dead? Why did the disciplines need to be so big? I actually liked the sliding scale on discipline size. It made sense. Now your specials are going to small and cramped. The whole 4 point print on the specials is going to make me go blind. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 1 Jul 2002 11:11:18 -0700, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Ya know, Allies just keep getting better and better with each expansion. We've been seeing more played at Tournament level, where they are actually usefull (rather than just "tricks"). Aside from people wondering if they didn't pitch out all their old Concealed Weapon cards, there could be a serious rush on Melee Weapons turning up in serious play. My old Ravnos Meat Cleaver deck might be viable again :-) I'm waiting to see if Allies are going to have discipline symbols (and possibly more) in the attribute bar. Looking good WW.. Bernie BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

> I'm waiting to see if Allies are going to have discipline symbols (and > possibly more) in the attribute bar. Now that would be an interesting possibility. XZ

> Now your specials are going to small and cramped. The whole 4 point print on > the specials is going to make me go blind. They are all going to start looking like the text on Fata Amria. *shudder* [ quoted text not captured ]

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5I1U8.1213$mp2.9...@newshog.newsread.com... > > Now your specials are going to small and cramped. The whole 4 point print on > > the specials is going to make me go blind. > > They are all going to start looking like the text on Fata Amria. > *shudder* Yep. Just wondering : Do the card layout designers actually play the f*｣$#&* game ?? @*ｵ$ !!

"XZealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:w51U8.23420$N8.24...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com... [ quoted text not captured ] maybe the only one... for the sake of clarity ?

In message <afq1k9$ge8it$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about: >A Garou with a gun only gains "harder to get killed by close- >range combat decks", though. I think the thing to worry about >with Garou is probably going to be Pokers or Bang Nakhs: more >damage for no cost or lots more damage for 2 more pool. > >And War Ghouls that don't have to equip to get Meat Hooks. I >am afraid... (they're bad enough when they *do* have to equip >to get the Meat Hooks!) Garou can't get a Bang Nakh, nor can a War Ghoul get a Meat Hook -- it inherently violates card text (Garou + BN = 4, WG + MH = 5). Note that Black Cat is now one of the bigger combat monsters in the game... 44s for 1 pool, Psyche! as necessary to catch people, and Celerity maneuvers and additional strikes en masse from Pursuit/Blur. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

> Garou can't get a Bang Nakh, nor can a War Ghoul get a Meat Hook -- it > inherently violates card text (Garou + BN = 4, WG + MH = 5). Au Contrair, my fine pool shooting friend. You need to look at the below post under Camrilla Edition Preview where LSJ has already created a ruling to help ease your understanding before the set even hits the streets. LSJ said: .> i already have a q? about Concelaed Weapons: .> Can lazverinus equip with bastard sword? .> (as a regular blow will do 4 damages) . .(Note: new card texts don't go into effect until the set .is legal for play.) . .Yes. . .A regular strike with a bastard sword inflicts 2 damage. .(default strength is 1; BS inflicts str+1 damage; the .current minion's current strength is not an issue) Hope this helps, [ quoted text not captured ]

> There is a certain scruffy look in the old layout which seems to be lost > in the minion card layout. The layout in Concealed Weapon reminds me of > layouts in other CCGs (like OtE) where too clear lines make the card > look a bit 'cheap' in some peculiar way. If I knew anything about > layouts at all, I might be able to express myself more clearly :) Yes ,the new layout looks very cheap and lame. New brujah background even worse :( > : -Disciplineless Concealed Weapon: Well, it is now disciplineless. We get to > : see if the game falls apart now at the hands of gun weilding Garou... War Ghouls, Garous and Zombies equipping Meat Hooks and bashing vampires who remember their mortal days. Nice... - Guzmo

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5I1U8.1213$mp2.9...@newshog.newsread.com... > > Now your specials are going to small and cramped. The whole 4 point print on > > the specials is going to make me go blind. > > They are all going to start looking like the text on Fata Amria. > *shudder* Althought now that I look at the difference between the two types of cards, It appears that instead of giving the card that 3 mm border on both sides they have hard adjusted (I think that is the term) the whole card to the right side of the card. This thereby eliminates the right 3mm margin and creates a 6mm left margin which they have turned into the attribute bar. If this is true. Then I think this is quite clever. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:PW0U8.23387$N8.24...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com... > Exactly, and as has been said prior in this thread, that attribute bar makes > it go from appearing gothic to techno. I'm not really sure there was anything "gothic" about the original game, Norm. Except that it said "gothic" in the description. :) And maybe some of the Toreador. But even Anneke was more techno than goth. > Is goth dead? Yes. When wasn't it? :P > Why did the disciplines need to be so big? I actually liked the sliding > scale on discipline size. It made sense. You might be the only person, then. Heh. > Now your specials are going to small and cramped. The whole 4 point print on > the specials is going to make me go blind. Ah, we're all going blind anyway. Let's not just blame it on the cards. Xian aka "Talbot's Chainsaw" and proud owner of a "goth bag"

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:B945CA6D.51C5%PD...@bigplanet.com... > So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: > > -Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly > jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. I kind of like the new layout, especially for the vampires. I don't know what the hell that "other issue" that Kevin Scribner is talking about is, but so far, I'm not too worried. Though I know there are plenty of people that will complain. Heck, it's not like they're changing the name, or the card back or anything...I mean, that'd kill a game, right? :) > kill anyone. I find the change in clan background a bit off--the Brujah > background looks like a Nosferatu background at first glance. Odd. Yeah, strange, but oh well. Xian

> >And War Ghouls that don't have to equip to get Meat Hooks. I > >am afraid... (they're bad enough when they *do* have to equip > >to get the Meat Hooks!) Isn't there a weapon that also prevents 1 damage (I mean, apart from the Talbot) ? In which case, I know my Shambling Hordes would conceal some... > Note that Black Cat is now one of the bigger combat monsters in the > game... 44s for 1 pool, Psyche! as necessary to catch people, and > Celerity maneuvers and additional strikes en masse from Pursuit/Blur. Yes, as far as she uses lots of Psyches she could be really big (but Brujah equip are often less succesful than plain old Brujah IG decks !!).

In message <afqptu$7g5$1...@wanadoo.fr>, "Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> mumbled something about: >> Note that Black Cat is now one of the bigger combat monsters in the >> game... 44s for 1 pool, Psyche! as necessary to catch people, and >> Celerity maneuvers and additional strikes en masse from Pursuit/Blur. > >Yes, as far as she uses lots of Psyches she could be really big (but Brujah >equip are often less succesful than plain old Brujah IG decks !!). That's because in the past, they've had to take the action to equip. When Black Cat bleeds for 3 every turn with Legal Manipulations, pulls a .44 out of her pants for 1 pool when you block her, and shoots you for 6, it starts to get very, very ugly. Toreador doing the same thing are even more annoying, as they can reserve their blood for Aire of Elation. Celerity cards are stackable and mixable in unbelievable ways. Flash, Psyche!, and Pursuit can all be cycled easily as necessary and are all free; if you don't use Psyche! to stop S:CE, then you can always restart combat to get your gun's maneuver back and get another cheap 2 points (at minimum). Or more specifically, maneuver with gun, maneuver with Flash, Pursuit for 4 damage, Psyche! to restart combat instead of pressing... Your opponents underestimating superior Celerity usually results in a lot of dead vampires near you. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:B945CA6D.51C5%PD...@bigplanet.com... > So the new previews are up for the Camarilla set, and what we get first are: > A whole lot of ugliness. Oy, that's a fat load of ugly. What drunken monkey thought that *this* was a good idea? ;)

On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:02:08 +0200, "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I'd sent in a suggestion awhile back that Allies could be "cleaned-up" if there were symbols on Ally cards representing Life, Strength, and Bleed. By doing so would remove a ton of text, leaving more room to print thier "special" abilities. Think about how much less text there would be on HighTop for instance. I'm geeked to see if they took that idea to heart or not.. BernieTIme BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> ha scritto nel messaggio news:%O6U8.211939$R61....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... [ quoted text not captured ] And, above all, who deeemed that ugly new card layout was necessary? *looks astonished* Emiliano, v:ekn prince of Rome

On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:15:56 GMT, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >Note that Black Cat is now one of the bigger combat monsters in the >game... 44s for 1 pool, Psyche! as necessary to catch people, and >Celerity maneuvers and additional strikes en masse from Pursuit/Blur. She could always do that...Pier 13. =] T

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<%O6U8.211939$R61....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yap! The whole cam edittion look like a Kids game design! Well, really the "task bar" for the disciplines is more clear that the old design but.... I still preffer the old & GOTHIC design ( yes, the old desing was gothic) About the number in the right corner, i think .... 100 vamps... Maybe our "f(r)iend" the number 3 of a large list??? ( over 100??) Until the moment , i will buy a box of BL!! Cam can wait!. That愀 all! Yours: Ulugh Beg ( plz I don愒 wanna be in this Edittion!!)

I have had another look at these cards today, and I must come out and say that I think the new design is actually quite good. I have three reasons for this: 1) White Wolf want to increase the number of players. 1 strategy in marketing is to re-develop the product to hit a larger number of potential players. The new design is similar to the LotR game, which has sold like nothing I have seen before, so it could be in order to "hit this market", whilst remaining the same game to existing players, and I assume (as nothing else had been said) that the game will be fully interchangeable with the old cards. 2) It will aid newer players. I have a mix of new and old players in my City, and the newer ones do still have problems identifying things about the cards in play and in their hand. This should help stop this with the sidebar. 3) I do like the design, and I don't think it will detract from the playability. At the moment, I don't have much cash (I have just moved in with my fiancee and we are saving to get married next year), so I shan't by a huge amount of this set, but as long as the cards I currently have remain playable (unlike the other game), then I can't see a problem. I may be in a minority here (most people seem quick to slag off the game after two cards) but I applaud White Wolf for making the changes. I, as many of you long playing people, might have liked a bit of consultation, but ultimately I think the game should benefit. Besides, if you don't want to buy any new cards, then I'm sure most of you, as I do, have large enough collections that it won't be essential (assuming we don't start getting type 1, 1.5, 2, extended, and block and if we do, then we won't be holding sanctioned tourneys in Cambridge anymore) as the ability to play the game shouldn't be reduced. I am also pleased that some new vamps will have Serpentis. Of course, if you find the new cards so offensive that you couldn't stand someone in the same pod as you playing with them, then I would treat is as a reason to try to oust them from the game quicker (within the rules of trying to win, not blatant out of game consideration). Just my little thoughts. Many of you will disagree, and I think already have, but that is your own choice, I won't attempt to make your own decisions for you. May the night be yours Andy "Slytherin" Brown VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge SET awakens, watch out all non-believers

"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<I8bU8.94849$Kt3.2...@twister2.libero.it>... > And, above all, who deeemed that ugly new card layout was necessary? > *looks astonished* This is something I was intending to ask about. Although I am happy to admit that the game could benefit from a visual redesign, what has been presented is IMHO aesthetically a step backwards from what we already have. Although I am polling my players at the moment, I do anticipate a negative reaction from many of them in regards to this surprise 'facelift' the cards seem to be getting. I am curious to know what design and consultation processes were implemented in regards to these changes. Were several design options explored originally before the final design was chosen? Were any Princes of players approached for their thoughts and opinions on the choice that was made? I'm sure there are many enquiring minds that would love to know... Regards, Mike Nudd VEKN Prince of London

[ quoted text not captured ] hum i can't think it's that as his name is Sir Ralph Hamilton, that can't put it 3rd of an alpahbetic vampire List. He is 6 Cap so he can't be #3 of a cap ordred list. He is Brujah, may be he is brujah #3 but i can't really trust this. the "3" mistery is still not uncovered > > That愀 all! > Yours: Ulugh Beg ( plz I don愒 wanna be in this Edittion!!) -- TzimisceLord http://myvtes.free.fr http://sabbatinfrance.free.fr

Andy Brown <a...@sanger.ac.uk> escribió en el mensaje de noticias 3D2172BC...@sanger.ac.uk... > I have had another look at these cards today, and I > must come out and say that I think the new design is > actually quite good. > > I have three reasons for this: > > 1) White Wolf want to increase the number of > players. 1 strategy in marketing is to re-develop > the product to hit a larger number of potential players. > The new design is similar to the LotR game, which has > sold like nothing I have seen before, so it could > be in order to "hit this market", whilst remaining > the same game to existing players, and I assume > (as nothing else had been said) that the game will > be fully interchangeable with the old cards. I have recently read 99 francs, by Frédéric Beigbeder, about the world of advertising, I haven't found it as great as press has said, but there's a dot that will aid in this point: In a given passage, the protagonist specifies that, when a brand has no good new things to apply to their product, in order to enhance its sellability, they simply change the product's box, or look. So, maybe in this set there's really absolutely nothing new, but a few old cards reprinted, so they have decided to modify the lay-out to make us believe its a brand new product. > > 2) It will aid newer players. I have a mix of > new and old players in my City, and the newer ones > do still have problems identifying things about the > cards in play and in their hand. This should help > stop this with the sidebar. > > 3) I do like the design, and I don't think it > will detract from the playability. At the moment, I > don't have much cash (I have just moved in with my > fiancee and we are saving to get married next year), > so I shan't by a huge amount of this set, but as long > as the cards I currently have remain playable (unlike > the other game), then I can't see a problem. The problem is that it breaks with the old design. It will look like I influence a pokemon and a vampire. Decks won't go mono-cam, so you will mix old vamps/cards with new ones. That will improve confusion among neew players far beyond the old lay-out. > > I may be in a minority here (most people seem quick > to slag off the game after two cards) but I applaud > White Wolf for making the changes. I, as many of you > long playing people, might have liked a bit of consultation, > but ultimately I think the game should benefit. > > Besides, if you don't want to buy any new cards, then > I'm sure most of you, as I do, have large enough collections > that it won't be essential (assuming we don't start > getting type 1, 1.5, 2, extended, and block and if > we do, then we won't be holding sanctioned tourneys > in Cambridge anymore) as the ability to play the game > shouldn't be reduced. Agreed at this point. > > May the night be yours > > Andy "Slytherin" Brown > VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge > SET awakens, watch out all non-believers Tom,Mad&Co Your attention, please Now turn off the light Your infection, please I haven't got all night

In article <%O6U8.211939$R61....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] They could have at least put the new bar in the same side as the old disciplines. Ugly ugly ugly. And offcentering (yeah I know its not a word). You want bigger symbols? The problem was adding n disciplines and then not being able to make them unique enough so they can be easily distinguished (mel and obf really spring to mind). Vtes has had symbols change before (jyhad/vtes+later animalism is an example) if mel is so confusing with obf change mel slightly. I also liked the background color, it was one way of identifying the vamps clan (and thus what you were likley to expect). Brujuh without black! said it before Ugly ugly ugly. I really hate the sidebar, one of the excuses/sales pitch was so the was larger discipline icons, with the vamps we have lets see what we have to fit in that corner Smudge 48 vamps with 1 discipline 68 with 2 108 with 3 142 with 4 93 with 5 22 with 6 482 vamps (sound right? grep pattern may have missed some) at double size# you have 257 encroaching on the oval, a lot of these have the disciplines in question at SUP and thus don't cross the oval. You wanted them bigger you can make them twice as easy to read and they will still fit. The would all miss if the oval was slightly smaller and off centre but that would look ugly ugly ugly. So don't do that just overlay/float the dicsipline icons above the edge of the artwork. #visual, to make somthing twice as easy to read, multiply it linearly by 2^1/2. You also move the placement down and to the right so the discipline icons take the full corner. Once again I hate the sidebar and the new background color. If they bring in somthing like MtG type 2, I'm outa here. (one of the theories on the 3) -- "The computer is never wrong Michael F. Tomkins The computer is your friend m.tom...@student.canberra.edu.au The computer is insane" University of Canberra, Australia. Paranoia http://student.canberra.edu.au/~u964617/

In message <3d234938.108484939@news>, Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] An action that gets blocked every time. I guess you've never heard of this "intercept" thing. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message news:36e685b2.0207...@posting.google.com... > I am curious to know what design and consultation processes were > implemented in regards to these changes. Were several design options > explored originally before the final design was chosen? Were any > Princes of players approached for their thoughts and opinions on the > choice that was made? I'm sure there are many enquiring minds that > would love to know... While I agree that "public opinion polls" or "focus group analysis" might have been a good idea for the layout change, I'd say that Princes are by no means the natural choice for "who should be asked". Being a Prince has nothing to do with your aesthetic judgment or even much to do with how representative you are of the general (or general VTES-playing) populace. It's just a coordinating-and- organizing job and I really don't think it should (or generally does ;-) entitle you/us to "privileged information". Josh (vekn prince of washington dc)

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:afsfqq$goeka$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... > > "Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message > news:36e685b2.0207...@posting.google.com... > <snip> > > While I agree that "public opinion polls" or "focus group analysis" > might have been a good idea for the layout change, I'd say that > Princes are by no means the natural choice for "who should be asked". > Being a Prince has nothing to do with your aesthetic judgment or > even much to do with how representative you are of the general (or > general VTES-playing) populace. It's just a coordinating-and- > organizing job and I really don't think it should (or generally > does ;-) entitle you/us to "privileged information". However, you see, being a Prince means that, more or less, you are very in touch with the game, with the local players enviroment, with the rules enviroment..etcetera, in one word, with the game in itself. I heard already some feedback from some of my players about this new crappy look-layout, the comment is just one: WHY ? was this deemed absolutely necessary ? shit, the Brujah backgorund now resembles the "old" cam nosferatu back...... and so on...... Necessity is the keyword: why this was deemed necessary ? I think that i'll hear (and repeat, therefore) this answer *ad nausea*...... ciao Emiliano [ quoted text not captured ]

"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:RGkU8.97200$Kt3.2...@twister2.libero.it... > > However, you see, being a Prince means that, more or less, you > are very in touch with the game, with the local players enviroment, > with the rules enviroment..etcetera, in one word, with the game in itself. Sure. But I can easily understand if White Wolf decides to not put any greater weight on the opinions of self-appointed spokespeople than on the opinions of, say, the "silent majority". :-) White Wolf knows, for example, if there are vastly more people buying VTES cards than the ones who post on this newsgroup, or even than the ones who are registered to the VEKN database. Nor is it likely, most of the time, to serve the "VTES community" well to "empower" them by discussing things with a "special list" that even most internet VTESers aren't on. Josh not putting on airs

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:afst3a$h0fbo$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... [ quoted text not captured ] Mostly, i don't agree. V.tes, as a game, must tribute his former survival *mainly* to the (internet) game's community as a whole. Even the vtes re-introduction (and success) with SW was possible (almost) just with the entusiasm and good feedbacks of the "old guard" players. Without the v.ekn, v:tes in itself would have pretty died long ago. I'm not saying that for that reason the actual company (WW) should make some special effort to appease or involve utterly the "active" (on internet) v:ekn/princedoms player's community, But, at least, i think that WW *should* make some effort to not *discomfort* that player base that is, the basement of the game success. Introducing changes that are actual improvement of the current game elements would be welcome. On the actual new look, we can just consider a thing, apart aestetical and personal taste consideration (and on that, as an unofficial card maker, my opinion is that the new look isn't good at all): this dramatic-change-layout will make pretty difficult to recognize cards on the table, whereas we will get "pre-new set" cards and "new-new-set-cards". So, how do you think how will be "easier" to explain/introduce the game to newbies with *completely* different cards' appearence? We know that the v:tes' table, after the three/four rounds, gets so many permanents cards in play. Starting form 19 aug, we'll get (many of) the same permanent cards looking *completely* different, making even harder to recognize properly the whole card stuff on the table. Do you really think that that will "enlarge" the player base, beyond the limit of this v:ekn/internet community ? I do not, nor i still see the reason to indroduce such drastical looking/layout change. CIao Emiliano [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:30:36 +0100, Andy Brown <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote: > >1) White Wolf want to increase the number of >players. 1 strategy in marketing is to re-develop >the product to hit a larger number of potential players. >The new design is similar to the LotR game, which has >sold like nothing I have seen before, so it could >be in order to "hit this market", whilst remaining >the same game to existing players, and I assume >(as nothing else had been said) that the game will >be fully interchangeable with the old cards. > Pre-constructed starters, keeping expansions in print, and popular events like the storyline tourney will go much farther in that respect then any card design will. In fact I would bet the clash of designs now will chase away old and new alike. And comparing VTES to LOTR will get you nowhere, a game must stand and deliver on its own merits, and frankly there was NOTHING wrong with the current cardface design, it happened to work for the past dozen+ years. >2) It will aid newer players. I have a mix of >new and old players in my City, and the newer ones >do still have problems identifying things about the >cards in play and in their hand. This should help >stop this with the sidebar. > BS. Its the same symbols still. No matter where they are or what background/bar they are on, they still have to learn the same symbology that we all have. >3) I do like the design, and I don't think it >will detract from the playability. To each their own here. I think it looks like shit, and I don't want to mix these new cards with my existing cards because of that. If I do, you can bet it will bother me as the atmosphere and look of the game are very important. T

On 2 Jul 2002 03:44:52 -0700, mi...@vekn.org.uk (Mike Nudd) wrote: >This is something I was intending to ask about. Although I am happy to >admit that the game could benefit from a visual redesign, Why? What exactly was so bad about the established card design that it had to be so drastically altered? > what has >been presented is IMHO aesthetically a step backwards from what we >already have. Agreed there. T

[ quoted text not captured ] It would however be a natural conduit to gauge player preference, as the middleman who talks to nearly every local player in his/her princedom. T

On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:27:19 GMT, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >In message <3d234938.108484939@news>, >Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com mumbled something about: > >>On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:15:56 GMT, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>Note that Black Cat is now one of the bigger combat monsters in the >>>game... 44s for 1 pool, Psyche! as necessary to catch people, and >>>Celerity maneuvers and additional strikes en masse from Pursuit/Blur. >> >>She could always do that...Pier 13. > >An action that gets blocked every time. > >I guess you've never heard of this "intercept" thing. > I didn't say it was perfect....just that she could do it. T

In message <3d257f00.2158220@news>, Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] Judging from the content of the Prince list, however, I would trust anyone BUT the Princes to accurately gauge their local players' information. Bunch of yo-yos. [ quoted text not captured ]

Dudes you frightened the webmaster and WW so much they haven't updated the previews in 2 days LOL PEACE!!!

On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 08:59:25 -0400, Peter D Bakija wrote: >-Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly >jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. That all the >disciplines are on the left of the card is weird The idea of the symbol bar is presumably that it's visible when you fan the cards. I'm not sure what people mean by "specials" when discussing the effect of this. If they are talking about the text box, then I agree that the text should not be too small. On Concealed Weapon, the space is not being used efficiently. The text should be in a larger point size so that it uses most of the box, not half of it. Andrew

<Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d237c74.1506445@news... > Pre-constructed starters, keeping expansions in print, and popular > events like the storyline tourney will go much farther in that respect > then any card design will. True. And by the same token, it shouldn't chase away very many players, if it's such a small matter. > In fact I would bet the clash of designs now will chase away old and new alike. It will probably chase away some old players, sure, but is it really that big a deal? No. > And comparing VTES to LOTR will get you nowhere, a game must stand and > deliver on its own merits, and frankly there was NOTHING wrong with > the current cardface design, it happened to work for the past dozen+ > years. By "dozen+", I assume you mean "eight", right? I agree, there was nothing wrong with the old design, but the new design isn't going to keep me from playing. It's just an aesthetic change, and I kind of happen to like it. > I think it looks like shit, and I don't want to mix these new cards > with my existing cards because of that. Fine. Go right ahead and do that. > If I do, you can bet it will bother me as the atmosphere and look of the game are > very important. Hmm. Even though I'm spookier than most of the people I play with, the atmosphere and look of the game has *nothing* to do with my interest in the game itself. For me, it's pretty much all about the mechanics. Oh, and beating other people's minions up. :) Xian

"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<KRpU8.99892$j65.2...@twister1.libero.it>... > Mostly, i don't agree. > V.tes, as a game, must tribute his former survival > *mainly* to the (internet) game's community as a whole. > Even the vtes re-introduction (and success) with SW > was possible (almost) just with the entusiasm and good feedbacks of the "old > guard" players. I don't think anyone is intending to challenge this point. WW themselves early on did plenty to credit the right people with the game's survival. > But, at least, i think that WW *should* make some effort to not *discomfort* > that player base that is, the basement of the game success. Well this is something I don't understand. As a volunteer Prince, I've put in a lot of time and effort on the game, not all of which has been fun, and a lot of which has gone uncommented on by The Powers That Be. I am now faced with a situation where the contacts I have built up and the friends I have made are going to revolt on me en masse, and all my hard work is probably going to fall by the wayside. People are asking me questions about WW's decision-making process that I can't answer. People are now talking about selling their cards, or moving to an entirely independant, 'Classic VtES' play environment. So what am I supposed to do about this, and how am I supposed to feel? We all know for a fact that White Wolf keep a close eye on both this newsgroup and on the Prince's mailing list. There was plenty of time to give us some warning, and plenty of time to offer some explanation as to what decisions were made and why. This hasn't happened. And I'm still prepared to take WW's side on many of these issues, but they're sure as hell not making easy for me, or any of my fellow Princes. The complete silence is not very reassuring, and if it isn't broken soon, then myself (and I'm sure many others) are going to lose faith. And then WW will be on their own, with a product they're unlikely to sell much of without considerable player support. Plus I'm not saying that I feel I should have been party to any decision/design processes personally, but I do feel that we of the VEKN have a right to find out who was involved, and whether the right judgement calls were made. And our constructive criticism should be noted. If there's no accountability, and no information flowing (in *both* directions) then what is the point? [ quoted text not captured ]

> Dudes you frightened the webmaster and WW so much they haven't updated > the previews in 2 days LOL PEACE!!! If history is a guide, they'll only update every week. Expect something new on Monday. Sorrow --- "...but you know, evil is an exact science..."

> > In fact I would bet the clash of designs now will chase away old and new > > alike. > It will probably chase away some old players, sure, but is it really that big a > deal? No. It is if those players were instrumental in promoting the game in their respective areas. Face it, new players aren't really picking up this game because "it looks cool". That will probably be the case even after the face lift. It is a very complicated game and it's that which will turn off the people who are casually interested. If there isn't anyone in their area who plays or promotes the game, the product will go unsold. The game peters off and everyone loses. Sorrow --- I told the priest - don't count on any second coming. God got his ass kicked the first time he came down here slumming. He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us. No, I don't wonder why, I wonder what he thought it would get us

"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:KRpU8.99892$j65.2...@twister1.libero.it... > > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio > news:afst3a$h0fbo$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... > > Nor is it likely, most of the time, to serve the "VTES > > community" well to "empower" them by discussing things with a > > "special list" that even most internet VTESers aren't on. > > > > Mostly, i don't agree. > V.tes, as a game, must tribute his former survival > *mainly* to the (internet) game's community as a whole. > Even the vtes re-introduction (and success) with SW > was possible (almost) just with the entusiasm and good feedbacks of the "old > guard" players. How do we know that, though? We have no idea what sales figures are. We do know that there are probably only a couple hundred people, tops, posting to the newsgroup (112 in the past 10 days). I'm pretty sure those people didn't buy 25 boxes each of Sabbat War. (I know I didn't.) > Without the v.ekn, v:tes in itself would have pretty died long ago. > I'm not saying that for that reason the actual company (WW) should > make some special effort to appease or involve utterly the > "active" (on internet) v:ekn/princedoms player's community, > But, at least, i think that WW *should* make some effort to not *discomfort* > that player base that is, the basement of the game success. I agree to some extent - I do think WW should be more willing to talk about their thought process and philosophy. It would be nice if they were. Of course, if they talked about it on the newsgroup, they'd either get embroiled in endless second-guessing arguments or just be laying it out and not discussing it. > Introducing changes that are actual improvement > of the current game elements would be welcome. Sure, but can any five people agree on what changes would be improvements and which ones wouldn't? > this dramatic-change-layout will make pretty difficult to > recognize cards on the table, whereas we will get "pre-new set" cards > and "new-new-set-cards". I don't think it'll be nearly that hard. Certainly no harder than a "normal new set" with new art for reprints and new cards you have to learn. > So, how do you think how will be "easier" to explain/introduce > the game to newbies with *completely* different cards' appearence? > We know that the v:tes' table, after the three/four rounds, gets so many > permanents cards in play. Starting form 19 aug, we'll get > (many of) the same permanent cards looking *completely* different, > making even harder to recognize properly the whole card stuff on the table. The new players may only have the new cards. And I doubt that they won't be smart enough to understand the difference between an old layout and a new one once it's explained to them. > Do you really think that that will "enlarge" the player base, beyond > the limit of this v:ekn/internet community ? It might. How would I know? I have no market research, no sales data, nothing. > I do not, nor i still see the reason to indroduce such drastical > looking/layout change. I don't really see the reason either, but apparently the designers think it's a good idea. I guess we'll see if they're right. It's really no different from the past; we've always been at the mercy of the card designers to give us things that don't suck and not break the game. Anyway, my main point originally was just that the Prince list would not, in my opinion, have been an especially appropriate venue for any such discussion/request for comments/whatever. If WW wanted player input, I think an open forum (the newsgroup, the WW boards, the Yahoo email lists, the VTES-L list, whatever) would be the way to go. Josh a message in every inbox

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:mBEU8.69$FW5....@newshog.newsread.com... [chasing away old players] > It is if those players were instrumental in promoting the game in their respective > areas. That is definitely true. > Face it, new players aren't really picking up this game because "it looks > cool". That will probably be the case even after the face lift. It is a very Yes, this is my point. People are either going to pick up the game for the mechanics or the tie-in with the RPG, not because of how it looks. Really, most people aren't going to know what the cards look like before they open up a pack (unless they have a friend introducing them to the game). Even then, they probably won't care one way or the other what the cards look like. Or at minimum, it won't necessarily turn them off to buying the cards (it's much more likely to be rules complexity, or lack of money, or whatever). > complicated game and it's that which will turn off the people who are casually > interested. If there isn't anyone in their area who plays or promotes the game, > the product will go unsold. The game peters off and everyone loses. Yes, admittedly, if *lots* of old players ditch the game, then WW is going to lose out. Myself, I don't think the change(s) is/are that big a deal. Xian out the door...almost...

Sorrow wrote: > > > Dudes you frightened the webmaster and WW so much they haven't updated > > the previews in 2 days LOL PEACE!!! > > If history is a guide, they'll only update every week. Expect something new on > Monday. Nice guess. But BL updates came, IIRC, "every four days or so", BTW. At any rate, the New Rule regarding the #3 is now up, a bit earlier than planned, both in response to the revelation that some distributors have a pre-release ordering deadline coming up (and some players may have qualms about pre-ordering before finding out what the big fuss is) and to help stem some of the wild speculation going on in the wake of the "I know something you don't know" thread. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

[ quoted text not captured ] Wow Derek I think we actually agree there. However I think that list remains largely dormant because it is unused for the most part, when it could've been a good testing board for player opinions. T

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:16:36 -0500, "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote: >> In fact I would bet the clash of designs now will chase away old and new >alike. > >It will probably chase away some old players, sure, but is it really that big a >deal? No. > Sure it is. The old players are what kep this game going in the dark years. New players if they play with just the CE will be confused by all these 'old' cards, and if you give them both to play with will be confused even farther. Its just not good way to present the game. I know that would turn me off as a new player, let alone an old one. This game is confusing enough without changing the cardface design midstream. > >By "dozen+", I assume you mean "eight", right? > Something like that. =] >I agree, there was nothing wrong with the old design, but the new design isn't >going to keep me from playing. It's just an aesthetic change, and I kind of >happen to like it. > Ah, but if its just an aesthetic change why is it being done? And aesthetics are important to many players, myself included. I think VTES was one of the best looking card games out there. Until now. T

> > If history is a guide, they'll only update every week. Expect something new on > > Monday. > Nice guess. hehehe. > But BL updates came, IIRC, "every four days or so", BTW. *shrug* I only checked once a week. Guess that's why I thought it was like that. Since SW and FN were updated only once a week, I figured... > At any rate, the New Rule regarding the #3 is now up, As people said, no big deal. I don't particularly like it but it makes alot of sense. > planned, both in response to the revelation that some distributors have > a pre-release ordering deadline coming up (and some players may have > qualms about pre-ordering before finding out what the big fuss is) and > to help stem some of the wild speculation going on in the wake of the > "I know something you don't know" thread. I'm more curious about the rumored reprints. That, more than anything, will determine if I buy any at all. I could deal with the new look, deal with the possible (now confirmed) rule but these other changes.... I guess I'm going to have to wait until the set is released before I can decide whether or not I'll be picking any of the new cards up. That sucks even more especially in light of the pre-order deadline. Sorrow --- My dreams erupt while in my bed Innocence is innocence is innocence is dripping red In dreams I'll walk with you In dreams I'll talk with you In dreams you're mine All of the time

Andy Brown <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<3D2172BC...@sanger.ac.uk>... > I have had another look at these cards today, and I > must come out and say that I think the new design is > actually quite good. > > May the night be yours > > Andy "Slytherin" Brown > VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge > SET awakens, watch out all non-believers Well, i like that the new vamps had serpentis!! and of course , the disvantage that has Sir Hammilton :-) SET RULEZ!! And yes , he´s awake in with our. Only watch out as the corrupted the world is...

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D232BFF...@white-wolf.com... > Sorrow wrote: > > > > If history is a guide, they'll only update every week. Expect something new on > > Monday. > > Nice guess. > But BL updates came, IIRC, "every four days or so", BTW. > Lord of the Rings updated every day for the RotEL expansion. Does that make them better than you? Can I have an official response on that, please? ;)

[ quoted text not captured ] They may be better than I, sure. :-) That would depend on the frequency and quality and duration of the updates. (Six Cam clans to preview -> six preview "dates" - I suppose I could've done them daily, but that would've involved waiting until Aug 13 - and probably driving the conspiracy theorists over the deep end :-). [ quoted text not captured ]

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<9607F0BAC4777B58.EE82CF34...@lp.airnews.net>... > On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 08:59:25 -0400, Peter D Bakija wrote: > > >-Brujah Vampire: Picture is very nice. The new card layout is slightly > >jarring at first, but certainly not difficult to get used to. That all the > >disciplines are on the left of the card is weird > > The idea of the symbol bar is presumably that it's visible when you > fan the cards. This part I like, as it is currently difficult to fan through cards right to left (at least for me) in order to see the disciplines as you go. But the green bar makes no sense at all. When you fan the Cam cards, you won't be able to identify the clan by color, because you'll just see green. Yes, you can look at the symbol, but looking at the color is faster. What purpose does the green serve? None that I can think of. It doesn't make the symbols easier to see, it doesn't make the card more balanced or better looking, and it wastes a lot of space on vampires with few disciplines. They could have easily stuck with the old background colors and just moved the symbols to the left side if their intent was to ONLY improve the useability of the cards. I have to think they have additional motives. JSpektr

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D24C899...@white-wolf.com... > Chris Berger wrote: > > > > > > > Lord of the Rings updated every day for the RotEL expansion. Does that make > > them better than you? Can I have an official response on that, please? ;) > > They may be better than I, sure. :-) > > That would depend on the frequency and quality and duration of the updates. > (Six Cam clans to preview -> six preview "dates" - I suppose I could've done > them daily, but that would've involved waiting until Aug 13 - and probably > driving the conspiracy theorists over the deep end :-). > Actually, their updates were pretty good. I assume you know that I was just joking above, but if you're interested in Decipher's pre-release updates... Every weekday, they released a picture of (and text of) at least one new card. More often, it was approximately 3 cards. In addition, there were often short strategy articles that talked about 3-6 cards taken as a group, most of them having been previewed that day. These strategy articles probably occurred for approximately half of the revealed cards. In addition, about once a week, one card released that day had an in-depth "Second Look" along with it. Also approximately once a week was a design article that talked about rejected card ideas, grand overviews of a culture, ideas for metastrategies introduced, or something similar. In all, I think about 1/3rd of the set was released in this way, at which point a full spoiler was made available on the webpage, about a week or two before the booster release. Not saying that I'm upset about the way spoilers are being released for V:TES. Decipher seems to have more sales with which to generate revenue to pay the number of people who would be necessary for this kind of web support, and WW seems, in general, to be more reticent about upcoming releases, but anyway... that's what they did, and I for one loved it. Of course, it caused me to realize that the set was utter shite and I should avoid buying it at all costs... But I really liked their pre-release info... ;)

On 5 Jul 2002 21:19:43 -0700, jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote: >> The idea of the symbol bar is presumably that it's visible when you >> fan the cards. You don't fan crypt cards. Library cards already have the symbols on the left. T

Chris Berger wrote: > Actually, their updates were pretty good. I assume you know that I was just > joking above, but if you're interested in Decipher's pre-release updates... Yeah, I got that. I'm not completely out of touch. :-) > Not saying that I'm upset about the way spoilers are being released for V:TES. > Decipher seems to have more sales with which to generate revenue to pay the > number of people who would be necessary for this kind of web support, and WW > seems, in general, to be more reticent about upcoming releases, but anyway... Well, the WW server being down for days would also put a cramp on such a schedule. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote in message news:<3d2c9f91.4678973@news>... [ quoted text not captured ] You do when you're going through your collection, trying to build a deck. JSpektr

[ quoted text not captured ] You must have amazingly huge hands then. =] T

"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com... > Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote in message news:<3d2c9f91.4678973@news>... > > > > You don't fan crypt cards. Library cards already have the symbols on > > the left. > > You do when you're going through your collection, trying to build a deck. > Maybe *you* do.

Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote in message news:<3d39e5fe.88256487@news>... [ quoted text not captured ] I am 6'4", a non-flabby 255 lbs., and yes, my hands are very large (XXL glove). I fan through a 4-5" stack of crypt cards at a time. Maybe fan isn't the right word, I have a stack in each hand and fan them from the top of the left stack to the bottom of the right stack while looking at the first few letters of the name and the background color. What would you call that? Mind you, I've never stopped to wonder if other people do it differently. It just seemed the easiest way to go through the cards, at least for me. JSpektr

"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com... > Mind you, I've never stopped to wonder if other people do it > differently. It just seemed the easiest way to go through the cards, > at least for me. ELDB. Xian

On 8 Jul 2002 19:55:12 -0700, jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote: > I have a stack in each hand and fan >them from the top of the left stack to the bottom of the right stack >while looking at the first few letters of the name and the background >color. What would you call that? > Bizarre? =] I have all my cards in boxes for the most part so picking up stacks and 'fanning' them would be a disaster. I personally flip through the cards looking at the cardnames only, as I usually know exactly what I am looking for. I also would find ELDB a much better means of finding certain discipline spread than fanning crypt cards. T