Camarilla edition and Vampire Capacity

I remember a discussion a while back on what formula WW use to calculate a vampire's capacity. Something along the line of 1 CAP for every inf. discipline, 2 CAP for every SUP discipline, 1 CAP for every vote, and then a modifier based on special ability. This formula works pretty well when going thru the list of current vamps. But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when compared to their predecessors. There are no current vamps with 10 CAP that have 5 SUP disciplines (except Huitzichose). We've already seen 2 from the CE. Is this the inevitable "dial-a-vamp" happening? Might this be a "marketing strategy" to sell a set that has nothing to offer but 15 new minion cards and a bunch of re-writes that seem to piss off most players??? If what we've seen continues, although I don't want to acquire this set, I just might have to... Thoughts?

> But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I > tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when > compared to their predecessors. There are no current vamps with 10 CAP > that have 5 SUP disciplines (except Huitzichose). We've already seen 2 > from the CE. True, and actually Huitzilopochtli has 6 at superior. But there are Ambrosio Luis Moncada, Plenipotentiary with aus DOM for OBT POT PRE which is 10 points of disciplines Nehsi with aus for OBF PRE PRO SER which is 10 points of disciplines Spider-Killer with ANI aus cel CHI FOR OBF which is 10 points of disciplines Silvia Giovanni with ANI DOM for NEC POT vic which is 10 points of disciplines Kemintiri with aus dom OBF PRE SER THA which is 10 points of disciplines Nefertiti with cel DOM OBF pot PRE SER which is 10 points of disciplines > Is this the inevitable "dial-a-vamp" happening? Might this be a > "marketing strategy" to sell a set that has nothing to offer but 15 > new minion cards and a bunch of re-writes that seem to piss off most > players??? The Crypt segragation rule prevents dial-a-vamp. What would you prefer a reprinting of the original VTES or perhaps that the game never be printed again? > If what we've seen continues, although I don't want to acquire this > set, I just might have to... I don't think that anyone is holding a gun to your head. The original set is still quite competitive. > Thoughts? I think that this is a troll, but I have responded none-the-less. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

> >I remember a discussion a while back on what formula WW use to >calculate a vampire's capacity. Something along the line of 1 CAP for >every inf. discipline, 2 CAP for every SUP discipline, 1 CAP for every >vote, and then a modifier based on special ability. This formula works >pretty well when going thru the list of current vamps. From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) Subject: Re: Final Nights previews on the White Wolf site Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad View this article only Date: 2001-05-16 07:25:06 PST James Hamblin wrote: > I think the only ones that really come out looking too powerful are the > big guys. The 6's with all three superiors are really good, but in no > way overpowered. There are quite a few 8's which have more than 8 > points, but I'm (begrudgingly) OK with that. Like the Little Tailor has The current formula gives 8caps 9 points of stuff. 1-4 caps get cap-1 points, 5-6 caps get cap points, 7-8 caps get cap+1 points, 9-10 caps get cap+2 points. This is more 1 point more than the Jyhad system gave at the 7+ level. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ >But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I >tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when >compared to their predecessors. There are no current vamps with 10 CAP >that have 5 SUP disciplines (except Huitzichose). We've already seen 2 >from the CE. Sir Ralph Hamilton: 6 points of disciplines. Cornercase advantage and disadvantage either even each other out or each count as 0. 6 points is right on track. Esau: 10 points of disciplines. +1 bleed is worth a point and we'll let his toin coss bleed be worth another point. Note of course that his is worse than the IC member's permanent +2 bleed since Esau has to burn a blood and only has a 50-50 chance of getting that last +. Of course I still find yet another vampire that can naturally bleed for 3 to be a bit uncomfortable but I suppose it could be worse. 12 points is right for a 10-cap. Marcus Vitel: 10 points of disciplines 1 point for Princedom And then ick. You could argue that his retainer burn ability is a bit corner-case, but it really depends on how common you see retainers in your meta-game. I'd give it a full-point but I'll compromise and let it count as 0.5. The other special is insanely powerful IMO. Yes, Marcus needs to be ready and a Prince (remaining a Prince shouldn't be *that* hard for him). But since it can potentially give +1 bleed to every vampire you control, I think the special is more than a bit overpowered. I can imagine a Lasombra weenie deck (hi there Christian!). 6-7 Lasombra weenies and Embraces might not look too threatening until Vitel comes out and all the weenies now have +1 bleed... I still maintain his bleed special is potentially too powerful, but overall Vitel does seem to come out about right cost-wise. (Let's just hope that whoever posted the "spoiler" was wrong about the Tremere. We wouldn't want our precious 10-caps shorted by a point now would we?) Halcyan 2

XZealot <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> escribió en el mensaje de noticias WRqX8.89229$wj4.7...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com... > > But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I > > tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when > > compared to their predecessors. There are no current vamps with 10 CAP > > that have 5 SUP disciplines (except Huitzichose). We've already seen 2 > > from the CE. No, that's not true. Look at Stanislava: DOM CEL PRO FOR ANI and a few cool specials Well, beyond this discussions about crypt there has been a few details that shocked me. On one hand, we have a bunch of highpowered ten caps. We've met two of them (Esau and Lucius, sorry, Marcus), Jaroslav Pascek, if it comes as some people has assured, is an almighty combatant. Also, we know of Menele and Helena from the RPG, and both are extremely powerful. If it goes like this, it's obvious that WW wants to encourage the metagame to one on one Titan struggle rather than a bunch of influenced minions. This vamps and some of the cards. The new derange only affects younger vampires. Baltimore's Purge text is so specific and new in concept to this game as to believe this is not a bluff. BP also benefits the use of high cap vamps, so you should remain safe from them. So, we have high cap vamps and an environment for them. Why am I worried, then? Well, maybe because I have always preferred two 6 caps than an Inner Circle. Maybe because putting of this monsters in play is one-third your starting pool. Having this in mind i agree with ww to depower fifth trad, as that will give cam decks the same possibilities of bringing 2 of these guys as sabbat decks, it's obvious. But it won't turn games to faster ones. Instead, most of the decks will be plenty of heavy pool gaining, ancient influence, honor the elders, political stranglehold, and so, along with better defense to avoid your pokemon being killed. Weenie decks wil remain as they are now. Sure, pre weenie and embrace weenie will disappear, but the main target of this new cards and rewordings are clan midcaps. Decks with a 4-7 cap crypt will loose more than they'll gain with all this, even though they are the most "fair" decks someone could play. They are not outstanding in disciplines spread other than their in-clan, they usually have lesser specials (except !toreador,perhaps). Most of them are lame on one(or more) of the aspects of game (brujah don't know what intercept/deflect is, ventrue lack of combat offense and intercept, and malks are really "soft" when you achieve to catch them) and the whole fail when facing politics. I won't say it saddens me. Well, my palla grande deck won't remain as mighty as it is right now. When I thought of a classical style brujah deck the one that comes to my mind it's the brujah debate deck, not the Allmighty Jaroslav one. Decks build around clans are for extend the standard way. But with all this 10-caps around and new/rewritten cards decks will be "a ventrue deck" no more, they will be a "Marcus-Arika-Leandro" deck or an "Esau deck" or whatever. This big ten-caps are similarly powerful to their sabbat/independent counterparts (Jaroslav/Lazverinus, Esau/Huiztilopochtli) , and I'm not sure being glad of having a titan able to play 5 disciplines wich I would usually play 3 in a given deck, or play with him alone with a 150 cards library. I don't think this is the way to speed up the game, either. Tom,Mad&Co !Toreador archbishop of Barcelona -Daddy? -Yes son? -Why do I have to regret? -Well, son. The funny thing about regret is, that is better to regret something that you have done, than regret something that you haven't. [ quoted text not captured ]

Halcyan wrote: (Let's just hope that whoever posted the "spoiler" was wrong about the Tremere. We wouldn't want our precious 10-caps shorted by a point now would we?) Halcyan 2 --- Lucas Halton Tremere 10 qui AUS CEL DOM THA Camarilla Prince of Houston: Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs). well, 9 points in disciplines + 2 votes + a nice special ability = 12.

In message <agm53j$40d$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>, "Tom, Mad & Co" <t...@almadrava.net> writes: >Weenie decks wil remain as they are now. Sure, pre weenie and embrace weenie >will disappear, but the main target of this new cards and rewordings are >clan midcaps. I'd be very surprised if they disappeared, even with the mooted changes. (Which may or may not turn out to be true.) A little more work, a few more skill cards, upping them to PRE, use of Staredown and more use of intricate blood management (superior PRE, gain a pool from Social Charm, put it back on with Blood Doll/Gird Minions as necessary). Disappearing completely doesn't strike me as likely. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

"Hawk the Demon" <de...@hell.is> wrote in message news:63352126.02071...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Camrilla Titles have generally only costed .5 points per vote not the 1 that Sabbat are costed. [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: > Camrilla Titles have generally only costed .5 points per vote not the 1 that > Sabbat are costed. Both Camarilla and Sabbat titles are .5 per vote. Priscus costs 1 -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Creature wrote: > But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I > tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when > compared to their predecessors. Part of the "problem" with the old Jyhad/V:tES sets is that a different point costing scheme was used in later sets. The new set attempts to use a similar costing scheme to what was used later. Additionally, it is at the big vampires where the original set began to break down. Appolonius? Lucretia? Roxanne, Rectrix of the 13th Floor? > Is this the inevitable "dial-a-vamp" happening? Might this be a > "marketing strategy" to sell a set that has nothing to offer but 15 > new minion cards and a bunch of re-writes that seem to piss off most > players??? I believe that you are overstating "most players". Definitely, a number of players are upset about it, but they appear to be a very vocal minority. A larger group appears to not be incredibly happy about it, but see it as a necessary evil. Surprisingly, my own playgroup (which I view as inherently very conservative), including the most "stuck in their ways" players appears to either approve of the new look/rules, or at least simply view them as a necessary evil as well. I was highly impressed, as this was not the reaction I was expecting. I had figured that I was going to have to do a lot of convincing. > If what we've seen continues, although I don't want to acquire this > set, I just might have to... I doubt that you will "have to"...I greatly suspect that a number of the old vampires will continue to remain competitve. I do not think I'll be retiring my Jyhad copies of Anneke, Anson, or Cardano anytime soon, unless they're reprinted or something. Xian

>Lucas Halton >Tremere 10 qui AUS CEL DOM THA >Camarilla Prince of Houston: Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an >action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful >block (before combat occurs). > 9 points of disciplines + 1 point of title (Prince is only worth one) + 1 point of special = 11. 12 should be the target number for most 10-caps. (His special is good, but not *that* good). Halcyan 2

In message <20020712093945...@mb-fm.aol.com>, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] The above vampire's special is SUPERB, considering his clan and available discipline spread. Untap with 2nd Tradition. Block with +2 intercept. Burn an extra blood instead of tapping. Thoughts Betrayed (optional since you're blocking). Theft of Vitae. Blur. Theft twice more. Even a single Theft is huge here. I'm not sure where anyone ever got the idea that blood spent by a Tremere is a bad thing. =) -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

cprov...@hotmail.com (Creature) wrote in message news:<83343c7b.02071...@posting.google.com>... > But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I > tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when > compared to their predecessors. There are no current vamps with 10 CAP Remember: This is V:TES, not V:TM. A minion's "power" is limited by cards in hand. It doesn't matter what disciplines a vampire has, if there are no cards in hand which take advantage of those disciplines. Along the same lines, you're not going to use more than 7 or 8 cap worth of points (including titles/specials) for any given vampire. So any other disciplines a vampire has, above and beyond those, are usually superfluous for any one deck. Hence, 'points' are an invalid metric for measuring either ability or worth for any vamp 9 cap or higher. Also, I think newer large-cap vamps with more 'points' (even if points were a valid metric), reflect inadequacies with the earlier vamps, moreso than excess with the newer vamps. > Is this the inevitable "dial-a-vamp" happening? Might this be a > "marketing strategy" to sell a set that has nothing to offer but 15 > new minion cards and a bunch of re-writes that seem to piss off most > players??? Find out the answers to these questions and more, in next week's episode of "As the Sets Turn."

"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message news:<agmicp$n4b13$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>... > Creature wrote: > > But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I > > tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when > > compared to their predecessors. > > Part of the "problem" with the old Jyhad/V:tES sets is that a different point > costing scheme was used in later sets. The new set attempts to use a similar > costing scheme to what was used later. Additionally, it is at the big vampires > where the original set began to break down. Appolonius? Lucretia? Roxanne, > Rectrix of the 13th Floor? no messing with Roxanne, that 13th floor is full of hate. :-) > > If what we've seen continues, although I don't want to acquire this > > set, I just might have to... > > I doubt that you will "have to"...I greatly suspect that a number of the old > vampires will continue to remain competitve. I do not think I'll be retiring my > Jyhad copies of Anneke, Anson, or Cardano anytime soon, unless they're reprinted > or something. > > Xian Xian, even if they reprint Cardano are you giving up a single copy? Cameron PS do you think Arika will have new art? mmm... new looking queen of sleaze.

<snip> > I doubt that you will "have to"...I greatly suspect that a number of the old > vampires will continue to remain competitve. I do not think I'll be retiring my Jyhad copies of Anneke, Anson, or Cardano anytime soon, unless they're reprinted or something. > > Xian Old number of vampires remaining competive? Compared to what? Certainly not to the new vampires in the Camarilla "set." The sects were balanced previously due to the Sabbat having better crypt cards and the Camarilla having better library cards (parity shifts, traditions, etc.) It seems that the new set is making the new Camarilla vampires more powerful at the expense of decreasing the power of the Camarilla cards (if the paying for 2nd and the limitations of 5th are true.) Is that White-Wolf trying to 'tweak' the game to make it more balanced or are these marketing decisions? The jaded and disenchanted of us see it as entirely marketing. Why would a player who played Jyhad buy this set at all? There are only FIFTEEN new library cards and fourteen of these don't require a clan or discipline to even play (according to the list in Game Trader.) Equally, the new cards look entirely different and for those of use that were hesitant to mix Jyhad and V:tes versions of the same card, we're certainly not destroying our decks with these new versions of old substitutes. There will be four versions of some cards when this set comes out (ex: Cloak the Gathering: Jyhad/V:tes/new art reprint in set/Camarilla.) I most definitely do not a card that does the exact same thing to look four different ways when in my hand. Thus, players of Jyhad are less likely to buy Camarilla for the library cards. Turning to the crypt cards: White Wolf clearly realized this inadequacy and (again for the disenchanted) decided that they would compensate this by making the new vampires vastly superior to the original - thus attempting to entice the old market to purchase Camarilla packs for the more efficient vampire. Supporters of White Wolf will offer the excuse of the "revised point system" as the reason that the original princes and justicars are vastly inferior to their new counterparts? But why did the system get revised? Exactly - marketability. More powerful vamps = more profits from the older player demographic. As for the original crypt being competive: examine the old crypt selection verses the very limited one that we have seen from spoilers and previews looking at 8+ capacity vamps: Dr. Jest (6 disc. points, a vote, and discard) 8 capacity = 7.5 points with little compatability as he only has one in-clan superior. Sylvester Simms (7 disc, a vote, torpor loss) 8 cap = 8 points being generous Roxanne, Rectrix (9 disc, vote, rush) 9 cap = 10.5 with four superiors, good weenie rush potential - thus far, the only one I'd call competitive. Lucian (8 disc, 3 vote, equip steal) 10 cap = 10 points Now Esau -the-Baali-in-Training: Esau (10 disc, +1 bleed, chance for +1 bleed) = 10 cap for 12 points, being 4 superior stealth bleed disciplines with bleed bonus specials. The capacity to point ratio is clearly unbalanced when compared to Lucian and if you factor in that tradition cards are less potent now, then Lucian is of even less value! Now the Ventrue compared to Vitel: Emerson Bridges (7 disc, 2 votes) 8=8 Natasha Volfchek (7 disc, vote, +1 bleed, +vote stealth) 9=9.5 though she doesn't have superior dominate. Helena Casimer (8 disc, vote, +1 bleed) 9=9.5 though again not all 3 in clans at superior. Democritus (7 disc, 3 votes, +1 bleed, contest cost) 10=10 without all 3 in-clan superiors. Compared to Vitel: Marcus Vitel (10 disc, 2 votes, retainer burn, +1 bleed Sabbats) Sabbat 10=13 *with* all 3 clan superiors and second ability which I will save my ranting energy for another time, though likely to raise more diatribe from me than Esau to my poor Jyhad list-serve. Now we all know the Prince of D.C. is getting stronger (winning qualifiers here and there and a regular bane to be at the mercy of his infernal table negotiations ;-) but Emerson compared to Vitel seems to take the Duffin success a bit far! (albeit Kudos on the accomplishments Josh, the few evil bones I have in my body for Jyhad, I attribute in part to you and Colin Riggs. =) ) But back to the ranting... Justification for the disparities in vampires? "New point system," which now must be code for White Wolf's marketing department. What will they do when they want to release more Camarilla vampires - 10 capacity vamps with 15 points? My long-awaited point is that the original vampires are simply not competive at all compared to the very few that have been publicly circulated from the Camarilla 'set' and balance of game play is not the reason for this lacking - profits are. It seems to me (again in the growing disenchanted group of former loyal players) that CCG companies that make their decisions concentraing on profits over playability, that the new players have little incentive to buy the product. Why not simply buy the new Uber vamps from individual card distributors or e-bay; old players who have played and supported this game a long time voicing their complaints with their pocket books? Again, I truly don't need a *forth* version of Cloak the Gathering. Brad finding it vastly appropriate that a Malkavian has replaced Cardano in Boston and an evil, machiavellian type has replaced Emerson Bridges in D.C. The irony.

>The jaded and disenchanted of us see it as entirely marketing. Why >would a player who played Jyhad buy this set at all? There are only >FIFTEEN new library cards and fourteen of these don't require a clan >or discipline to even play (according to the list in Game Trader.) >Equally, the new cards look entirely different and for those of use >that were hesitant to mix Jyhad and V:tes versions of the same card, >we're certainly not destroying our decks with these new versions of >old substitutes. There will be four versions of some cards when this >set comes out (ex: Cloak the Gathering: Jyhad/V:tes/new art reprint >in set/Camarilla.) I most definitely do not a card that does the >exact same thing to look four different ways when in my hand. Thus, >players of Jyhad are less likely to buy Camarilla for the library >cards. Unless they simply want more copies of cards they have, not out of question with NCL. >Turning to the crypt cards: White Wolf clearly realized this >inadequacy and (again for the disenchanted) decided that they would >compensate this by making the new vampires vastly superior to the >original - thus attempting to entice the old market to purchase >Camarilla packs for the more efficient vampire. Supporters of White >Wolf will offer the excuse of the "revised point system" as the reason >that the original princes and justicars are vastly inferior to their >new counterparts? But why did the system get revised? Exactly - >marketability. More powerful vamps = more profits from the older >player demographic. The two you are suggesting that are superior are both 10 caps. I'm not hugely worried about new 10 caps being better than Jyhad 10 caps. >My long-awaited point is that the original vampires are simply not >competive at all compared to the very few that have been publicly >circulated from the Camarilla 'set' and balance of game play is not >the reason for this lacking - profits are. It seems to me (again in >the growing disenchanted group of former loyal players) that CCG >companies that make their decisions concentraing on profits over >playability, that the new players have little incentive to buy the >product. Why not simply buy the new Uber vamps from individual card >distributors or e-bay; old players who have played and supported this >game a long time voicing their complaints with their pocket books? Uh, yeah. I have no idea why anyone feels the need to buy this set for the new vampires. Sets will be available on eBay for $5 or something since none are rare. They will have no meaningful value. Sounds like some of the people complaining should be happy about this. Bunch of the new library cards won't have any monetary value either, not being rare. Should be able to trade for the rares, assuming trading is a possibility at all. Hmm, I seem to be making the argument that WW would have been better off making all of the new cards rare to maximize profits. Interesting. >Again, I truly don't need a *fourth* version of Cloak the Gathering. Having another 10-20 Cloaks doesn't bother me, either. I've run out of ones I've already had sleeved when building decks. I've opened a lot of cards for a variety of CCGs since I started playing them. I may be unhappy (besides the usual pain that occurs when opening large amounts of boosters due to being only concerned with distributions and not the cards themselves), but I don't think I'll know with this set until it happens.

Supporters of White > Wolf will offer the excuse of the "revised point system" as the reason > that the original princes and justicars are vastly inferior to their > new counterparts? But why did the system get revised? Exactly - > marketability. More powerful vamps = more profits from the older > player demographic. Here is where you are wrong. The point system has been revised several times. The below is reprinted from http://groups.google.com/groups?q=point+system+group:rec.games.trading-cards .jyhad&start=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8rje8v%249vn%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rn um=21 The System (Peter Bajika) I don't think anyone is completely sure that there ever was an actual formula used to make the Jyhad set vampires, but as all of them were pretty balanced in terms of abilities vs. capacity, we all came up with one to use as a judge for the cost effectiveness of vampires. The original vampires tended to fit in the following system: Vampires of size 2-4: They got one less point in disciplines/abilities than their age--i.e. a 2 point vampire got one point of skills, a 3 point vampire got 2 points of skills, a 4 point vampire got 3 points of skills. Vampires of size 5-8: They got points disciplines/abilities equal to their age--i.e. a 6 point vampire got 6 points worth of disciplines and special abilities. Vampires of size 9-10: They got one or two points of extra abilities over and above the amount equal to their age--i.e. a 10 point vampire usuaully had 11 or 12 points of skills and special abilities. Caitiff tended to have one discipline and a disadvantage, 2 disciplines and a severe disadvantage, or no disciplines and an advantage (Smudge will be ignored no longer!). Costs: A basic discipline cost 1 point. A superior discipline cost 2 points. +1 bleed or +1 hand damage cost 2 points. A title costs 1 point (many folks adhere to the cost scheme of Primogen=.5 points, Prince=1 point, Justicar=1.5 points, with rounding, but the end result is the same). Most other special abilites cost 1 point. Some special abilities end up costing 2 points to make the formula work. Most clan specific special abilities (like Rake's) are free. For example: Emerson Bridges (8): He has 3 superior disciplines (6 points), one inferior discipline (1 point), and is a Prince (1 point). 6+1+1=8...Emerson's capacity. Agrippina (4): She has one superior discipline (2 points) and one inferior (1 point). 2+1=3...one less than Agrippina's capacity (because she is 4 or younger). Badger (6): 2 superiors (4 points) and 2 inferiors (2 points). 4+2=6. Sebastian Marley (7): 1 superior (2 points), 3 inferiors (3 points), +1 hand damage (2 points). 2+3+2=7. Don Cruez (10): 3 superiors (6 points), 3 inferiors (3 points), Justicar (1 point), special ability (1 point). 6+3+1+1=11...one more than Don's capacity. Anvil (6): 2 superiors (4 points), 3 inferiors (3 points), Primogen (1 point). 4+3+1=8 points! Anvil is the original "broken" vampire--far more effective for his cost than he should to be. Now, this formula was well adhered to in the original set--most vampires fit very well, assuming you are willing to accept that some of the weird special abilities of the huge vampires are worth 2 points to make everything fit well. The expansion vampires (DS and AH) tended to follow this formula as well, but the designers seemed more willing to ignore the formula when they felt like it. For instance, Judah (6) only has 4 points of skills and is a Primogen, making him a point overcosted--he should be a 5 or have one more point of abilities (like inferior obf). With the Sabbat, the designers decided that most special skills were only worth 1 point (even +1 hand damage and +1 bleed, which were worth 2 points in Jyhad, resulting in fairly weak vampires like Zack North, Sebastian Marley, and Adrianne), and out of clan disciplines only cost half. This design decision resulted in the Sabbat vampires being wildly overpowered when compared to their Jyhad counterparts. Compare Sheila Mezarin (6) to Adrianne (6). Sheila has 2 in clan superiors, one in clan inferior, one out of clan inferior, and +1 bleed. Adrianne (6) has 3 in clan inferiors, one out of clan inferior, and +1 bleed. According to the original design system, Sheila has 2 points more in abilities than she should--the result being that Adrianne is completely eclipsed by Sheila. The System for the Sabbat Expansion (Carl Pilhatsch) Ok, in Sabbat it was like follows: 1 point for being a non-Pander 1 point for each normal in-clan discipline 0.5 point for each normal out-of-clan discipline add. 1 point for each superior in-clan discipline, but every 2nd is free! add 0.5 point for each superior out-of-clan discipline 1 point for each vote (bishop 1, archbishop 2, cardinal+priscus 3) 1 point for +1 bleed, +1 intercept, +1 hand damage, +1 stealth, each appropriate cost for each special ability, mostly 1 point In Sabbat, all vamps applied strictly to this formula. For VTES, DS and AH, I don't know for sure, but you can apply the formula and it works well (I don't know if there are any exceptions). Agrippina is ok: 1 for being a non-caitiff, 2 for sup OBF, 1 for inf pot (1+2+1=4). Anvil: 1 non-caitiff, 3 for standard disciplines norm, 2 in-clan sup (1 point, every second free!), 2 out-of-clan normal (1 point) and 1 vote (1 point). (1+3+1+1+1=7) Still overpowered a bit. The new system seems to be a hybrid of the two old systems. Disciplines and Titles are costed like Jyhad but specials are costed like Sabbat. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp "Then again Christoph was never upbeat. What was it Lydia had said about him once? Moody as a damn girl." -Theo Bell, Brujah Archon P. 201 Brujah Clan Novel

"Brad Kellogg" <odd...@gwu.edu> wrote > > Now Esau -the-Baali-in-Training: > Esau (10 disc, +1 bleed, chance for +1 bleed) = 10 cap for 12 points, > being 4 superior stealth bleed disciplines with bleed bonus specials. > The capacity to point ratio is clearly unbalanced when compared to > Lucian and if you factor in that tradition cards are less potent now, > then Lucian is of even less value! Lucian was never of much value anyway though. Esau is what Lucian *should* have looked like 7 years ago. I disagree with your point count... 1 point for +1 bleed is right on target but paying 1 blood for the *chance* to get another +1 bleed doesn't sound that great to me. Blood is a scarce commodity these days and I think most of the time I'd rather keep my vampires with some blood on them. I suspect we'll see the 'anemia'-factor become a major problem (or strategy) in the near future. With cards like Free States Rant and The Final Nights, as well as the [rumoured] changes to cards like Majesty and 2nd Tradition, I think we'll be seeing more Hunting Grounds, Jake Washington, etc hit the table. Without fuel, what will make our vampires go? :) Additonally, while I like Esau's disciplines, they're not all that compatible when combined. Presence, Dementation and Dominate are all fairly similar for bleeding purposes. Sure he can Social Charm + Seduction + Eyes of Chaos but is he that much further ahead than he'd be by playing Govern the Unaligned + Seduction + Threats? The combo of Presence and Dementation has potential with three other vampires (so far) having this combination. Not sure what to do with it yet but I like having the option available. Cheers, WES

"Cameron" <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a1e26d99.02071...@posting.google.com... > "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message news:<agmicp$n4b13$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>... > > I doubt that you will "have to"...I greatly suspect that a number of the old > > vampires will continue to remain competitve. I do not think I'll be retiring my > > Jyhad copies of Anneke, Anson, or Cardano anytime soon, unless they're reprinted > > or something. > > Xian, even if they reprint Cardano are you giving up a single copy? Hah! What do you think? :) > PS do you think Arika will have new art? mmm... new looking queen of sleaze. I don't know about that. I suspect she will have the exact same art, because surely WW will want all players to know which vampire to target their hate at, without question. :P Xian

In message <c25aa70a.02071...@posting.google.com>, odd...@gwu.edu (Brad Kellogg) mumbled something about: >Camarilla packs for the more efficient vampire. Supporters of White >Wolf will offer the excuse of the "revised point system" as the reason >that the original princes and justicars are vastly inferior to their >new counterparts? But why did the system get revised? Exactly - >marketability. More powerful vamps = more profits from the older >player demographic. No. Supporters of White Wolf will point out that the old high-cap vampires just plain sucked, to the point where if you weren't using their EXACT discipline combination, it just wasn't worth ever putting them in your deck. This is because of the "weenie problem", something that has been stated here several times. 9-caps or above take three turns to influence out. In that time, you can get slaughtered by weenies, so the vampire who hits the table on turn 4 had damn well better be able to take EXCELLENT actions. Most of the original Jyhad high-caps weren't designed with this in mind; they just didn't realize that two 4-caps are worth more than one 8-cap, because of the action advantage. There's also the eggs-in-one-basket disadvantage; if I Pentex your big guy, you're fucked until someone decides to help you... It's a lot easier to put one vampire in torpor than 4... And any of a number of other reason why big vamps are very risky to play with. To offset that risk, big vamps HAVE to kick ass. This is something the original designers simply didn't realize. >As for the original crypt being competive: examine the old crypt >selection verses the very limited one that we have seen from spoilers >and previews looking at 8+ capacity vamps: > >Dr. Jest (6 disc. points, a vote, and discard) 8 capacity = 7.5 points >with little compatability as he only has one in-clan superior. Worthless vamp except in extreme corner-case. >Sylvester Simms (7 disc, a vote, torpor loss) 8 cap = 8 points being >generous Worthless vamp except in extreme corner-case. >Roxanne, Rectrix (9 disc, vote, rush) 9 cap = 10.5 with four >superiors, good weenie rush potential - thus far, the only one I'd >call competitive. Disciplines that aren't worthless, but they can all be found on cheaper vamps except for OBF/FOR... not a particularly winning discipline combo (witness the Samedi). >Lucian (8 disc, 3 vote, equip steal) 10 cap = 10 points Comes with three in-clan superiors, a functional special, and is STILL a Justicar, something which cannot ever be discounted. It's not just the Traditions... it's cards like Parity Shift and the like as well. And you can't imagine how useful 3 votes at a table can be, even if you're not actively using them yourself. >Now Esau -the-Baali-in-Training: >Esau (10 disc, +1 bleed, chance for +1 bleed) = 10 cap for 12 points, >being 4 superior stealth bleed disciplines with bleed bonus specials. >The capacity to point ratio is clearly unbalanced when compared to >Lucian and if you factor in that tradition cards are less potent now, >then Lucian is of even less value! No. Esau is plain and simply a stealth-bleeder, and that's all. He's one hell of a bleeder, but I can get a bleeder who's almost as good for half the cost. Going down his disciplines: OBF/DOM/DEM/AUS -- Standard Malk/!Malk disciplines. Can be found anywhere else. Dementation doesn't really add much to a stock Malkavian, and Dominate only adds Deflection and Obedience to !Malkavians. Sure, that's nice, but they already had Telepathic Misdirection. PRE -- Varies a bit, but OBF/PRE is easy to find, DOM/PRE is easy to find, and AUS/PRE is easy to find. DEM/PRE is neat, so he almost fits in a !Malk vote deck... except that he has no title, and can't be a Cardinal, so why would you ever stick him in? He looks awful good at first, but he's still a 10-cap, with all the disadvantages listed above... not the least of which being that pesky card Deflection. I'll pick plenty of other vamps to bleed with before I go with Esau. And frankly, even though the Traditions may be less potent, Esau still can't play ANY of them. >But back to the ranting... Justification for the disparities in >vampires? "New point system," which now must be code for White Wolf's >marketing department. What will they do when they want to release >more Camarilla vampires - 10 capacity vamps with 15 points? Blithering and foolish paranoia. >My long-awaited point is that the original vampires are simply not >competive at all compared to the very few that have been publicly >circulated from the Camarilla 'set' and balance of game play is not Plenty of original vampires are MORE than competitive compared to these two. Lucian and Esau are virtually equivalent; the Justicar title easily makes up for the discipline shortage. Vitel is noticeably better. Vitel is a promo card, and a 10-cap himself. He still shares all the difficulties of other 10-caps, not to mention a highly conditional special. Is he good? Yes. Is he out-of-hand good? No. [ quoted text not captured ]

>finding it vastly appropriate that a Malkavian has replaced Cardano in >Boston and an evil, machiavellian type has replaced Emerson Bridges in >D.C. The irony. No irony there. That's what happens when you blindly (or not-so-blindly) follow canon. Damn. Some canon book we published 5 years ago mentioned in an obscure sentence a Nosferatu as the Prince of Seattle. Guess we gotta stay consistent. Uh-oh. Because some rogue writer just felt like making it so, the Princes of Cleveland, Dallas, and Atlanta are all Gangrel. That seems to be problematic. ... Halcyan 2 believes in a firm line of Separation between RPG and CCG. that was *clearly* the intent of our founders

evilp...@yahoo.com (evil_poot_cat) wrote in message news:<cf597231.02071...@posting.google.com>... > cprov...@hotmail.com (Creature) wrote in message news:<83343c7b.02071...@posting.google.com>... > > > But when compared to what we've seen of the CE (Esau, Vitel), well, I > > tend to see that CE vamps might be a bit on the powerful side when > > compared to their predecessors. There are no current vamps with 10 CAP > > Remember: This is V:TES, not V:TM. A minion's "power" is limited by > cards in hand. It doesn't matter what disciplines a vampire has, if > there are no cards in hand which take advantage of those disciplines. > Along the same lines, you're not going to use more than 7 or 8 cap > worth of points (including titles/specials) for any given vampire. So > any other disciplines a vampire has, above and beyond those, are > usually superfluous for any one deck. Hence, 'points' are an invalid > metric for measuring either ability or worth for any vamp 9 cap or > higher. > > Also, I think newer large-cap vamps with more 'points' (even if > points were a valid metric), reflect inadequacies with the earlier > vamps, moreso than excess with the newer vamps. I disagree. Although it is true you will rarely use more than 7-8 pts worth in a specific deck, the flexibility that those disciplines bring mean you can use this vamp in many different concepts and combine the "special" with a number of different combos. That to me is what i consider powerful. 'start slapping another couple of discipline points at Arika, and then she starts fitting into setite and ahrimanes decks!

"Brad Kellogg" <odd...@gwu.edu> wrote in message news:c25aa70a.02071...@posting.google.com... Hi Brad! :-) > Old number of vampires remaining competive? Compared to what? > Certainly not to the new vampires in the Camarilla "set." Mmm, I'm not so sure. From the top down, vampires from Jyhad/ VTES that are still probably going to be played: Wynn (rare ability) Lucian (OBF DOM Justicar) Masika (unique ability) Anneke (unique ability) Sheldon (he is and will always be The Man) Cardano Natasha Volfchek (+1 stealth on PAs isn't widely available) Anson (unique ability) Emerson Bridges (the old Ventrue Princes are IMO liable to remain benchmarks) Selma (for OBF prince = good) Justine (unique ability) Astrid Thomas (DOM THA 7 = good) Mariel (unique ability) Timothy Crowley Gilbert Duane (AUS DOM OBF 7-cap prince?!) Sir Walter Nash Rake (6-cap PRE prince) Anvil (the original broken vamp) Merrill Molitor (unique ability) Camille Devereux Raven (will there be a new pair of FOR PRO ani 5-caps? doubt it!) Zebulon (OBF dom pro 5 = not bad) Bear Paw (still smallest ANI vamp) Didi Meyers (obf DOM 5 = not bad) Felicia Mostrom (AUS CEL 5 will be interesting with new Concealed) Black Cat (unique ability) Hector Sosa (POT pre 4) Sarah Cobbler (THA dom 4) Agrippina (OBF pot 4) Roland Bishop (obf dom 4) Dorian Strack (AUS cel 4) Violete Prentiss (PRE dom 4) Aleph (AUS dom 4) Anastasia Grey (ani pro 3) Dollface (aus obf 3) Gideon Fontaine (PRE 3) Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn (pot cel 3) Duck (pot obf 3) Jing Wei (tha dom 3) Ricki Van Demsi (pro for 3) Dr. John Casey (aus tha 3) Dimple (obf 2) Roreca Quaid (tha 2) Vliam Andor (ani 2) Normal (obf 2) Dieter Keist (aus 2) Giuliano Vincenzi (for 2) Brazil (aus 2) Delilah Easton (pre 2) Rufina Soledad (for 2) Lupo (pot 2) Koko (pot 2) Angel (cel 2) Nik (cel 1) Navar McClaren (ani 1) Igo the Hungry (pre pro 1) Uriah Winter (unique ability, pot for 1) Hasina Kesi (pot 1) Smudge (1) That's 59 vampires from the original set that I expect people will still want to use. Obsolescence is not, I think, a real danger. The ones that the new vampires are going to "outdate" are the ones that no one plays with *already* because they're not worth the pool they cost. Appolonius, Lucretia, Crusher, Lazarus, Roxanne, Andreas - they're just too expensive for what you get! There's no reason to make the new vamps suck just because the old ones did. > The sects were balanced previously due to the Sabbat having better > crypt cards and the Camarilla having better library cards (parity > shifts, traditions, etc.) It seems that the new set is making the new > Camarilla vampires more powerful at the expense of decreasing the > power of the Camarilla cards (if the paying for 2nd and the > limitations of 5th are true.) Is that White-Wolf trying to 'tweak' > the game to make it more balanced or are these marketing decisions? Some of both, of course. I'd think the reason there are new vamps at all is largely for marketing: they want to make new cards because CCGs live through printing new cards, and they don't want to make lots of new library cards because this is a base set and the cards that should go in it already exist. So, a bunch of new vampires. And if they really are doing the "tweaking high-power cards" thing, obviously that's for balance reasons. I'd think it would be easier to "balance sects" using the same approach rather than different approaches. Probably more "fair" too. > The jaded and disenchanted of us see it as entirely marketing. Why > would a player who played Jyhad buy this set at all? Because new vampires are cool. Duh. ;-) And cause we want uncommon Freak drives. And some Deranges. And Apportations. And more Minion Taps. You can never have enough Minion Taps. Or Govern the Unaligned. Especially if they all get new art. New art is cool too. (At least, I like it.) > I most definitely do not a card that does the > exact same thing to look four different ways when in my hand. Thus, > players of Jyhad are less likely to buy Camarilla for the library > cards. I've always liked "alternate art". I like the Sabbat Lost in Crowds picture a lot. I liked the Jyhad picture too, but I like having both of them. Maybe I'm in the minority on that, but legions of Magic players seem to suggest otherwise. :-) > Turning to the crypt cards: White Wolf clearly realized this > inadequacy and (again for the disenchanted) decided that they would > compensate this by making the new vampires vastly superior to the > original - thus attempting to entice the old market to purchase > Camarilla packs for the more efficient vampire. Supporters of White > Wolf will offer the excuse of the "revised point system" as the reason > that the original princes and justicars are vastly inferior to their > new counterparts? But why did the system get revised? Exactly - > marketability. More powerful vamps = more profits from the older > player demographic. We've only seen one new Prince or Justicar so far, you know. Kind of leaping to conclusions here, don't you think? The one we've seen isn't even necessarily better than his predecessor, just different. Paying 8 for a PRE DOM FOR pot Prince is often a useful 2 pool and 1 turn of influence cheaper than paying 10 for a PRE DOM FOR OBF OBT Prince. Especially if you're not planning to use all 5 skills. > As for the original crypt being competive: examine the old crypt > selection verses the very limited one that we have seen from spoilers > and previews looking at 8+ capacity vamps: But you're looking mostly at the ones that already kinda suck and don't get played much. The new goal is presumably to *not make* vampires that suck, at least as much as possible. And I don't think Lucian *is* worse than Esau; being a Justicar is great, and even if 2nd and 5th both change it'll still be great. > Now we all know the Prince of D.C. is getting stronger (winning > qualifiers here and there and a regular bane to be at the mercy of his > infernal table negotiations ;-) but Emerson compared to Vitel seems to > take the Duffin success a bit far! (albeit Kudos on the > accomplishments Josh, the few evil bones I have in my body for Jyhad, > I attribute in part to you and Colin Riggs. =) ) Heh, heh, heh. Glad we could help. ;-) Josh the vitel one