Pettit, Mark K, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, wrote:
> Section 17.1, Voting, states:> "A policital card always provides one vote for the Methuselah playing it.
> This card is immediately replaced after being played. Additional
> political cards can also be used by any of the other Methuselahs for
> votes. The actual effects of these cards are ignored. Cards used in this
> way are discarded to the ash heap and not replaced until the voting is
> finished."
Actually, in my rules, section 17.1 says:
"When a political card is played as an action or a call made for a
bloodhunt against a vampire committing diablerie, a vote is called. A
vote is always yes or no. A political card always provides one vote for
the Methuselah playing it. Note that no cards played during a vote are
replaced until after the vote."
These are from the revised rules (distributed with The Duellist, and
available for download from the marvin site), and I don't have one of the
little rule books to double-check the listing you posted.
There are a couple of cards that can cause a political action to be
cancelled and taken back into the player's hand (Delaying Tactics, for
instance), so you need to have room for that card to come back if
necessary. The main thing, though, is that it keeps you from restocking
with vote cards all the way through the election. Note that modifiers
like stealth and Presence cards that buy you votes are not replaced either.
Your hand is your hand until the vote is blocked or completed.
--
Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a | a-Henh!
fully charged icing annointment utensil, he poots forth |
a tiny green rosette near the summit of a dense but | Brian
radiant muffin of his own design. | Wilson
|
We miss you, Frank! |
On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Jack Vinson wrote:
> The ACTION of taking a vote begins the minute I tap my vampire and declare
> that I am voting, either with a vote card or with a card on the table that
> automatically allows a vampire to call a vote. If I'm playing a vote card
> as my ACTION, I replace it as I would any other action card. Some people
> may wait to see what others do before they redraw, but you needn't do so.
> My predator and prey can attempt to block and I can react to those blocks
> by playing action modifiers. These cards also get replaced as normal. If
> the action is unblocked, THEN voting begins and all cards now played are
> not replaced until voting is complete.
I disagree.
> Delaying Tactics is a Ventrue reaction card which stops the political
> action before voting starts, forcing the Meth to put the card back into his
> hand and untapping the acting vampire. The Meth cannot attempt to call the
> same vote again that turn. If the M had already drawn a card, he then has
> an extra and must burn a card to get back down to the hand-size limit.
> I doubt they have to burn the card just drawn.
Delaying Tactics is a reaction card useable by any minion, which you may
be confusing with the Ventrue card, Elder Kindred Network.
> This, of course, is my "official" opinion. Not anyone else's.
And mine is my own. So we disagree. So what?
In article <Pine.A32.3.90.950119...@hopi.gate.net>,
Brian Wilson <bwi...@gate.net> wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Jack Vinson wrote:
>>> The ACTION of taking a vote begins the minute I tap my vampire and declare
>> that I am voting, either with a vote card or with a card on the table that
>> automatically allows a vampire to call a vote. If I'm playing a vote card
>> as my ACTION, I replace it as I would any other action card. Some people
>> may wait to see what others do before they redraw, but you needn't do so.
>> My predator and prey can attempt to block and I can react to those blocks
>> by playing action modifiers. These cards also get replaced as normal. If
>> the action is unblocked, THEN voting begins and all cards now played are
>> not replaced until voting is complete.>
>I disagree.
You disagree.
Any reason?
What do you disagree with?
Please post something a little more substantial then "I disagree."
[ quoted text not captured ]
>>>>> "JH" == Josh Hsu <jo...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> writes:
JH> Reaction cards and action modifiers are played before the vote starts,
JH> so yes, of course they are replaced... Just for all of you who may
JH> have been playing them wrong the order of events is
JH> 1)declare vote
JH> 2)action taker may play action modifiers(b. oration etc.)
JH> 3)other vampires may play reaction cards(dread gaze, sudden influence etC)
JH> 4)original action taker may play action modifiers
JH> 5)vote starts.
JH> you _cannot_ play dread gaze or b. oration after a vote has started.
JH> If I'm wrong, prove it, don't just say it.
JH> thanks
This is an interesting interpretation of the rules for the cards and I
don't think it is the correct one, although I can't give you a RULE as to
why not.
1) Declare the action to vote (throw down the card and tap the acting
vampire) which is at +1 stealth. This card is replaced.
2) Your prey then predator can decide whether they want to increase
intercept and block the action
- If block is attempted, acting Meth can attempt to increase stealth or
otherwise make the vote harder to block (make it a Dawn Operation :-)
- All cards played to modify/block the action are replaced unless they
indicate otherwise (Wake With Evening's Freshness is not, for example)
There is no reason during this stage of the action to play cards that will
give you votes. A general rule in the game is that you cannot use cards
that do not directly affect whatever is happening. Thus, although a
Methuselah across the table has Dread Gaze, she can't use it until there is
something being voted on. And there is nothing being voted on until the
action remains unblocked.
3) If the action is unblocked, voting begins and no cards played from here
until the vote passes/fails may be replaced. This is where vampires vote
with their titles and with Dread Gaze, Bewitching Oration and vampires may
hose the vote with a variety of other reaction cards. Methuselah's vote
with political action cards and the edge for one vote each. (Don't forget
the action modifier that let's any Methuselah trade pool for 2 (or 3)
votes!)
[This is where I am unsure]
4) Vote passes or fails. Cards are replaced, and end-of-vote cards like
Cryptic Rider, Political Backlash and several others may be played. My
confusion lies in whether you are allowed to fill back to the hand-size
limit before playing these cards (in hopes that they show up in your
redraw).
There, a reasoned explanation of my thoughts. Now, where did I leave my
Assault Rifle?
--
Jack Vinson - Philadelphia, PA
Bart Simpson at the Chalkboard: vin...@unagi.cis.upenn.edu
In article <3fgohi$1...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>,
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>
>>>Any card played to start the political action, and any action modifiers
>>or reactions played prior to the start of the vote (such as stealth and
>>intercept cards) are replaced normally. Only when the voting actually
>>begins do players stop replacing cards immediately.>
>But you still replace any further action modifiers/ reaction cards
>normally right (e.g. B.Oration and Dread Gaze) ?
>Only political action cards used for votes are not replaced until after
>the voting has ended, right?
>If not, please cite the rule reference (or wave you hands and say "errata"
Reaction cards and action modifiers are played before the vote starts, so yes,
of course they are replaced...
Just for all of you who may have been playing them wrong the order of events
is
1)declare vote
2)action taker may play action modifiers(b. oration etc.)
3)other vampires may play reaction cards(dread gaze, sudden influence etC)
4)original action taker may play action modifiers
5)vote starts.
you _cannot_ play dread gaze or b. oration after a vote has started.
If I'm wrong, prove it, don't just say it.
thanks
>:-)
>
>Thanks.
>L. Scott Johnson
In article <3fb5p2$b...@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, l...@cs.tu-berlin.de (Lutz Hofmann) writes:
>Hello,
>
>now for some Voting questions:
>
>1st A Vote for a Justiciar allows +1 extra vote for voting vampires of
> that clan. Do all vampires get this bonus or only those who are Primogen,
> Princes or the Justiciar? In short is this bonus for the non-titled, too?
+1 vote would mean one extra vote, or at least that is how it has been
played by my group. this means nontitled have one vote, primogen two, etc.
>
>2nd Cryptic Rider: Is it of no interest whether the modified political
> action fails or succeed? The condition is that the political action is
> not blocked, is it not?
I believe this was listed in the errata section of an earlier post. The
vote the cryptic rider modifies must pass. However, it isn't particular about
how it passed. For instance, call a vote through Charming Lobby, and have it
pass. On the second vote, WHICH PASSES AUTOMATICALLY, play a cryptic rider,
and get a third vote through. This has actually occurred in my hand, and it
was ugly...
>
>3rd Political Backlash is in contrast only usable after voting, is it not?
> Must I play it before refilling my hand?
Political Backlash does occur after voting, and only when the vote is
completed can you refil your hand. So, yes, you would get to refil your hand
before playing the card.
>
>4th Voter Captivation: same as 3rd question>
>5th Disarming Presence says: 'All vampires that cast votes are tapped.'
> Do these Vampires need to be untapped in order to cast votes or
> may they be already tapped. Does surprise Influence count as casting
> votes for Disarming Presence?
This is a nasty effect to make a vote costly. Normally vampires that
vote do not tap nor do they have to be untapped in order to vote. Simply they
must be in the ready region. Surprise influence is a reaction card, so no.
An Autarkaris (sp?) Persecution for a vote would tap.
>
>6th May the Methuselah use Surprise Influence himself, say when all Kindred
> are tapped and cannot play reaction cards? (see 7.2.2 Reaction cards)
Unless otherwise stated on the card, vampires must be untapped to play
a reaction card, but they do not tap as a result of playing a reaction card.
Thus my answer to the 5th.
>
>7th The action card, which states the action being taken, is
> immediatly being replaced before the prey or the player suffering
> the directed action attempts to block, is it not?
>
> Is this the same for political actions and action modifiers?
> When does 'do not replace during a vote' kick in?
In the first part, yes. But votes are handled differently. Because the
political action calling the vote also gives you one vote for, it must not
be replaced. The voting has begun.
>
>8th Which minions may steal blood from a Powerbase, steal The Rack or
> burn Cultivated Blood Shortage?
I have never seen the Rack card, but the others allow for the directed action
in the text of the card. Worried about Cultivated Blood Shortages? Me too.
I play a strictly Ventrue deck, and when people realize that, the first thing
they do is go for a copy or two of those cards. Well, I have some interesting
things that you can do in response. First, keep a bunch of Bondings around. If
you have a vampire with superior dominate around, the card can be used for +1
stealth. It does not say anywhere on the card that you must be bleeding
somebody. (An effect you can also use to cycle through your deck faster.) If
they can't block you, it's no big deal, just a waste of an action. If they
happen to have a lot of auspex and are just waiting to kick your vampires butts
, then keep some majesties handy with vamps that have superior presence. That
way you can have the same vampire soak two or more blockers, allowing somebody
through. There are also the Consanguinous cards, Boons for yourself and
Condemnation for whoever is annoying you currently. As a voting powerhouse,
you may even get the thing removed by another player hoping to get a favor
in return. This currying of your favor is one of the most useful aspects of
a Ventrue deck. Oh, if you are playing strictly ventrue, invest in some Sport
Bikes and a radio station at some point in time.
Good luck in your game,
Clifford Murphy
CB_Murphy @ smcvax.smcvt.edu
>
> Do these minions require cards with a circeled D (e.g. Bum's Rush, Computer
> Hacking) to take this action?
>
>Yours Sincerely Lutz Hofmann
> l...@cs.tu-berlin.de
>--
>Happiness? - - - Roger Taylor
>A general rule in the game is that you cannot use cards
>that do not directly affect whatever is happening.
This is _not_ a general rule in Jyhad. There nothing in the rules to
stop you from playing a +votes modifier on a non-political action. Or
a +bleed modifer on a hunting action, or...
Some cards specify something like 'only usable during a political
action'. Those cards are limited, the rest are not.
Stig Hemmer aka st...@pvv.unit.no
pvv means ProgramVareVerkstedet ("Software Workshop", a student society)
.unit means UNiversitetet I Trondheim GNUS don't kill people.
.no means NOrway, a minor kingdom in northern Europe. Guns do.
Josh Hsu, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, wrote:
> >> The ACTION of taking a vote begins the minute I tap my vampire and declare
> >> that I am voting, either with a vote card or with a card on the table that
> >> automatically allows a vampire to call a vote. If I'm playing a vote card
> >> as my ACTION, I replace it as I would any other action card. Some people
> >> may wait to see what others do before they redraw, but you needn't do so.
> >> My predator and prey can attempt to block and I can react to those blocks
> >> by playing action modifiers. These cards also get replaced as normal. If
> >> the action is unblocked, THEN voting begins and all cards now played are
> >> not replaced until voting is complete.
> >
> >I disagree.> You disagree.
> Any reason?
> What do you disagree with?
> Please post something a little more substantial then "I disagree."
Please follow the thread if you need more detail. I'm sorry that you came
in in the middle of this, but it should be clear that I disagree with
Jack's lengthy statement posted above.
I shouldn't have to repeat the *entire* message I'm replying to (I find
it irritating to have to wade through screen after screen of replay to
get to a reply). You will find this thread is quite "substantial" if you
take the time to read the whole thing.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Jack Vinson, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, wrote:
> [This is where I am unsure]
> 4) Vote passes or fails. Cards are replaced, and end-of-vote cards like
> Cryptic Rider, Political Backlash and several others may be played. My
> confusion lies in whether you are allowed to fill back to the hand-size
> limit before playing these cards (in hopes that they show up in your
> redraw).
This is the source of my interpretation of the rules, that from the
moment the Political Action card hits the table until the moment that the
action is successfully blocked, or the vote is completed or cancelled, no
replacements occur. It's pretty cut and dried like that, and no one need
be unsure. The idea behind not replacing any cards is to keep you from
refreshing your hand with more votes, so it makes sense not to replace
anything at all until the thing is over and done with.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Cards which provide votes are assumed to be used while a vote is going on,
and may only be used while a vote is going on, except during a bloodhunt
vote. Specific cards may indicate otherwise, of course.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Stig Hemmer <st...@pvv.unit.no> wrote:
>This is _not_ a general rule in Jyhad. There nothing in the rules to
>stop you from playing a +votes modifier on a non-political action. Or
>a +bleed modifer on a hunting action, or...
This is incorrect. You cannot play superior Bonding to increase the
stealth of any old action, for example; it would have to be used druing
a bleed.
[ quoted text not captured ]
You are only prohibited from replacing cards from the beginning of a vote
to the end of the vote. Any card used to start the action, and any
modifiers or reactions played prior to the commencement of the vote
(e.g. stealth and intercept cards), are replaced normally.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Jack Vinson <vin...@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> writes:
>[This is where I am unsure]
>4) Vote passes or fails. Cards are replaced, and end-of-vote cards like
>Cryptic Rider, Political Backlash and several others may be played. My
>confusion lies in whether you are allowed to fill back to the hand-size
>limit before playing these cards (in hopes that they show up in your
>redraw).
Sounds great except that end-of-vote cards like "Cryptic Rider" and "Politicae
Backlash" are played _before_ the voting cards are replaced, as they are both
extensions of the voting process. (This, of course, is my opinion.)
Cryptic Rider:
Action Modifier: "Only usable after a political action is successful."
Political Backlash:
Reaction: "Usable only when a vote fails."
Dale Hurtt
dhu...@tanis.ess.harris.com
[ quoted text not captured ]
02...@iq.pvv.unit.no> <dhurtt.791153419@tanis>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Dale Hurtt (dhurtt@tanis) wrote:
: st...@pvv.unit.no (Stig Hemmer) writes:: >This is _not_ a general rule in Jyhad. There nothing in the rules to: >stop you from playing a +votes modifier on a non-political action. Or
: >a +bleed modifer on a hunting action, or...: Then please read the latest Design Team Rulings (dated 12/22/94, I believe)
: which it stated that a card could not be played unless _some portion_ of the
: card could be fulfilled. For example, "Anarch Troublemaker" could be played
: against a Methuselah with only one vampire (it can affect two). This is an
: example of partial fulfillment. Using a card like "Bonding" while hunting is
: _not_ allowed as you are not fulfilling any portion of the card (which req
: a bleed action). In fact, if you had superior Dominate, your interpretation
: might claim that you could use the +1 Stealth from Superior "Bonding", but
: is _absolutely_ not allowed, per the Rulings (dated 9/23/94, I believe).
Where do you get the Design Team Rulings? Using Sup. Bonding for Stealth
is definitely "partial fufillment", so you'd need an express ruling. The
9/23/94 ruling expressly forbids using Bonding for stealth alone? I wish
they'd have clarified that in the rules...they need a new Player's Guide.
: >Some cards specify something like 'only usable during a political: >action'. Those cards are limited, the rest are not.
This is the impression that I got...and (IMHO) the most intuitive one.
WotC definitely had a wart with this card...
--
Meow!
: Where do you get the Design Team Rulings? Using Sup. Bonding for Stealth: is definitely "partial fufillment", so you'd need an express ruling. The
: 9/23/94 ruling expressly forbids using Bonding for stealth alone? I wish
: they'd have clarified that in the rules...they need a new Player's Guide.
Design team rulings are posted here occasionally by Tom Wylie. I think that
there is a summary file on marvin. In general, you can't use ANY card for
just its +1 stealth unless that is all it does (eg, Lost in Crowds). You
can only use Bonding's superior version stealth bonus if you are bleeding!
--
Jeff Dunham (je...@hprnd.rose.hp.com)
In article <pkittyD3...@netcom.com>, pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty)
wrote:
> Where do you get the Design Team Rulings? Using Sup. Bonding for Stealth
> is definitely "partial fufillment", so you'd need an express ruling. The
> 9/23/94 ruling expressly forbids using Bonding for stealth alone? I wish
> they'd have clarified that in the rules...they need a new Player's Guide.
>> This is the impression that I got...and (IMHO) the most intuitive one.> WotC definitely had a wart with this card...
> --
>
> Meow!
if you follow intuition, bonding will not give you only stealth. the sup.
version is clearly meant to be (notice the quotes) "+1 bleed +1 stealth".
this is not the same as a press, where you can use it to continue or to
end combat. this is not partial fufillment of the card, because it is a
bleed modifier.
Harpua
Cards which modify bleed can only be used on bleed actions. Specifically,
Bonding can only be used if the action is a bleed action, and can't
be used to increase the stealth of some random action.
[ quoted text not captured ]