Visit from the Capuchin (resurrected)

I appear to have missed this when it was originally posted. (a long time ago!) [LSJ 13-Sep-2001]: > LSJ wrote: > > > > "....salem christ...." wrote: > > > > > > With Visit From The Capuchin, you get 4 counters and increase your hand > > > size by four. > > > Now, if you play a WwEF, you burn a counter off VFTC, and your hand size > > > is reduced by one because of that. > > > However, WwEF is a "do not replace" card, and cards that are "not being > > > replaced" count against your hand size. > > > So you have a hand size of 10 (7+3 counters), and 10 cards. But the wwef > > > is counting against that hand size. So you should only have 9 cards. > > > So, you must discard an additional card? > > > > No. Visit From the Capuchin says that no replacement card is drawn. > > All cards (incl. Wake) played by the controller of Visit from the > > Capuchin are "Do not draw to replace this card". > > > > So the "Do Not Replace Until X" clause has no bearing - it is replaced > > (overridden) by a "This card is not replaced" clause, per Visit from the > > Capuchin's text. > > Note: I incorrectly agreed with the opposite assertion earlier > [LSJ 29-JUN-2001]. > > My apologies for the mistake. The above ruling is correct. I see that there is currently a ruling entry for this (that Visit + Wake = only one card and one counter out of your hand) on the White Wolf site. And I can see the parallel to Meddling of Semsith. But I'm surprised that Visit was ruled this way, because the text of Visit from the Capuchin is: "Put this card into play; put four counters on this card from the blood bank. Your hand size is +X, where X is the number of counters on this card. Each time you play or discard a card (except when discarding down to your hand size), burn a counter from this card (do not draw a replacement card). Burn this card when the last counter is removed." The "do not draw a replacement card" is in parentheses. Normally, parentheses in card text indicate reminder text. If "do not draw a replacement card" is reminder text (as I always took it to be), it is merely reminding you that you do not draw a replacement card if your hand-size decreases simultaneously with a card leaving your hand (as when one is played or discarded under Visit from the Capuchin). This is why I had thought, and suggested in that 29-Jun-2001 thread, that playing a Wake with Evening's Freshness under Visit from the Capuchin reduced your hand-size by an additional one (beyond that represented by the loss of the Visit counter, since Wake itself counts against your hand-size by its own text). Again, I don't find it untenable that Visit should work the same way Meddling of Semsith does in this situation - having multiple cards work the same way is usually a good thing. :-) But I am surprised by it because of the "reminder text" parentheses on Visit from the Capuchin. If the 13-Sep-2001 ruling is indeed the final word, perhaps if Visit is reprinted at any point, it could be printed with the parentheses removed? Josh reminded of things past

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:bsq7rd$9tl9$1...@ID-121616.news.uni-berlin.de... [ quoted text not captured ] > "Put this card into play; put four counters on this card from the blood > bank. Your hand size is +X, where X is the number of counters on this > card. Each time you play or discard a card (except when discarding down > to your hand size), burn a counter from this card (do not draw a > replacement card). Burn this card when the last counter is removed." Sorry about the follow-up, I realized I had another question after posting. Given this ruling, does Visit from the Capuchin's "do not replace" effect ("until Visit is burned" presumably being the duration of its effect) in fact override or simply overlap with the "do not replace" periods on cards played from your hand? That is, if you play a Wake with Evening's Freshness under Visit, and the Visit is burned before your next untap phase, will your hand size not be affected by the not-replacing of the Wake (because Visit has overridden its normal do-not-replace and it's "forgotten"), or will you go to a hand size of 6 when Visit is burned (assuming no other effects) until the Wake's do-not-replace expiresas normal at your next untap phase? (The same question applies to shorter periods like the "do not replace until after combat" of Lucky Blow, but it's less likely to come up with them.) Josh always confused by "overriding" type interactions

Joshua Duffin wrote: > The "do not draw a replacement card" is in parentheses. Normally, > parentheses in card text indicate reminder text. Card text in parenthesis is often not reminder text. Aching Beauty Admonitions Ankara Citadel Blissful Agony Cats' Guidance Charming Lobby ... -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Joshua Duffin wrote: >>>LSJ wrote: >>>>All cards (incl. Wake) played by the controller of Visit from the >>>>Capuchin are "Do not draw to replace this card". >>>> >>>>So the "Do Not Replace Until X" clause has no bearing - it is replaced >>>>(overridden) by a "This card is not replaced" clause, per Visit > > Given this ruling, does Visit from the Capuchin's "do not replace" > effect ("until Visit is burned" presumably being the duration of its > effect) in fact override or simply overlap with the "do not replace" > periods on cards played from your hand? Visit From the Capuchin's "Do not replace" has a "duration" of "ever". The card is not replaced. Period. > That is, if you play a Wake with Evening's Freshness under Visit, and > the Visit is burned before your next untap phase, will your hand size > not be affected by the not-replacing of the Wake (because Visit has > overridden its normal do-not-replace and it's "forgotten"), or will you > go to a hand size of 6 when Visit is burned (assuming no other effects) > until the Wake's do-not-replace expiresas normal at your next untap > phase? The burning of Visit won't affect the fact that the wake you played is played without replacing. For instance: VftC has 2 counters (so you have 9 cards in hand). You play Wake. It is not replaced, ever. You burn a counter from VftC instead of replacing the wake. (So your hand size is now +1, so you should have 8 cards in hand. You check, and, since you do, you do not discard or draw cards). You play some other card. Deflection, say. It is also not replaced, ever. You burn a counter from VftC instead. Visit is burned. You now have a hand size of 7. You check your hand. You have seven cards. So you don't draw or discard. When your untap rolls around, assuming you haven't played any more cards, you still have those same seven cards in your hand and your hand size is still seven. You do not draw. > (The same question applies to shorter periods like the "do not replace > until after combat" of Lucky Blow, but it's less likely to come up with > them.) The same answer applies. [ quoted text not captured ]