europe vs north america

It is 8 years that I am playing vampire.... But for the last 3 years, I notice a big difference in the number of player between tournament in europe and in US/canada. If you look the last months tournament for example, in US and canada, the average is below 15 players, but in europe it is above 20 (and check the EC in germany 60players!!!! the next in belgium will be even grotter I think). Ok, now, If you look how many play are register in us 2430 + 600 in canada, but in europe : spain 720, france 380, uk 270, germany 200..... And I hear that more and more new players are starting in europe. I will be really interested in having some information from white wolf about the sale europe/us also to compare!!! But for me , I look like our europeen community is more actif than the one in the other side of the atlantic ocean........ something to say about it ??

cure wrote: :: It is 8 years that I am playing vampire.... tu es d'oů ? =)

> If you look the > last months tournament for example, in US and canada, the average is > below 15 players, but in europe it is above 20 (and check the EC in > germany 60players!!!! It was the EC qualifier (!) not the EC. And it was 66 players to be exact. And yes, we are a little proud of it ;-). I think this was the second biggest tournament so far, which is independent of a continental championship (no day-before qualifier or cc itself). > the next in belgium will be even grotter I > think). We will see, I don´t think so :-). Numbers don´t meet expectations, usually. We were expecting more than 80 players :-) > Ok, now, If you look how many play are register in us 2430 + 600 in > canada, but in europe : spain 720, france 380, uk 270, germany > 200..... This is probably due to the fact that inactive players are not deleted from the database. At least as far as I know. > And I hear that more and more new players are starting in europe. We have a steady increase here in Germany, I know next to nothing about other countries. But I think player numbers in the US are also increasing. > I will be really interested in having some information from white wolf > about the sale europe/us also to compare!!! I am quite sure WW will NOT reveal such information to the public. I would not, either, if I was in charge. > But for me , I look like our europeen community is more actif than the > one in the other side of the atlantic ocean........ Hard to say, but I guess I would vote slightly in favor of Europe (Old Europe ! :-)) here. This might be due to the fact that everything is much closer (distance) than in the US. LA->NY about 6000km, right ? Most destinations in Europe can be reached under 1000km from our (german) perspective (OK, I admit we have quite a central location). > something to say about it ?? I think that you made some true and important statements here. Probably this increase of activity in the european region should also be reflected in the influence the european part of the V:EKN has in central issues. johannes walch v:ekn germany

cure wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I would think that It has something to do with landmass size. Playgroups in NA (especially Canada) have a larger distance between them in general so getting somewhere to play a tournament is a big deal. For myself, the next closest groups that hold tournaments are located in Montreal, Toronto and Quebec City that are 2, 4 and 8 hours of driving from Ottawa respectively. I am certain that the more populated areas in the States (NY, LA, Chicago) don't have the same problem but in contrast, a player in Paris may have access to 3 groups within and hour using the excellent transit/rail system. Correct me if i am wrong but I assume its a simple matter of geography and population density. Mark Allen Prince of Ottawa

Last year EC in Viena: 73 players Ec Qualifier (took place one day berfore the EC itself): 115 players. Here in Barcelona we are attending to this numbers for this year's EC. Guess that we'll break those 115 players for the qualifier.

[ quoted text not captured ] 2003-01-22 2003-06-05 % increase Total 5411 6359 17.5 USA 1722 1926 11.8 Spain 549 722 31.5 Canada 498 606 21.6 France 313 380 21.4 Brazil 232 288 24.1 United Kingdom 241 271 12.4 Sweden 213 246 15.4 Australia 196 225 14.7 Italy 163 199 22.0 Germany 164 194 18.2 Finland 141 159 12.7 Portugal 124 157 26.6 Hungary 109 125 14.6 Poland 90 100 11.1 Austria 79 87 10.1 Philippines 54 87 61.1 Norway 62 83 33.8 Czech Republic 59 78 32.2 Mexico 66 71 7.5 Croatia 49 67 36.7 Netherlands 54 64 18.5 Slovakia 26 60 130.7 Greece 46 53 15.2 Chile 44 50 13.6 Belgium 39 38 -2.6 Denmark 34 38 11.7 New Zealand 30 29 -3.4 Russia 7 22 214.2 Iceland 16 21 31.2 Ireland 18 19 5.5 Subsum 5438 6465 18.8 All nations with less than 10 not included so we know for certain that several of the numbers for each nation are too large. The percentage of obvoius doubles have increased during the period as well so we can safely assume that the actual increase in players for any nation with a "non-unique" name is actually distinctly lower than the numbers above show. Just because I had too much time available :) Sten During

> Just because I had too much time available :) Could you make a subtotal for europe, then ? :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Sure :) Let's include Mexico in North America 2003-01-22 2003-06-05 incr % Europe 2596 3183 22.6 North America (inc Mexico) 2286 2603 13.8 Only based on the nations earlier in this thread. Sten During

On 5 Jun 2003 04:13:17 -0700, cu...@caramail.com (cure) scrawled: >But for me , I look like our europeen community is more actif than the >one in the other side of the atlantic ocean........ > >something to say about it ?? maybe north america just has more of a social scene than a tournament scene, compared to europe. :/ salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

> maybe north america just has more of a social scene than a tournament > scene, compared to europe. :/ in fact we do have a social tournament scene. play hard during the day, drink a lot at night. for examples refer to the "european drinking tour 2003" :-) -- johannes walch v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/

Johannes Walch wrote: >>maybe north america just has more of a social scene than a tournament >>scene, compared to europe. :/ > > > in fact we do have a social tournament scene. play hard during the day, > drink a lot at night. > for examples refer to the "european drinking tour 2003" :-) > Heh :) We're running monthly constructed tournaments here and try to run bimonthly drafts as well. Our weekly pubgames are still happening more often, and I definitely consider those "social games" albeit not always "friendly games" :) Pubgames tend to prove that vampires are made of highly flamable material... Sten During

Could it be that V:tES is relatively new in parts of Europe, and its novelty makes it more popular there? I really have no idea.

<snip stats> My question is, given the 200% increase in that locale, what's the Russian metagame like!? -Matt

> tu es d'oů ? =) je suis francais originaire de dunkerque et je vis actuellement en hollande. I am french, But I am living in the netherlands.

>It is 8 years that I am playing vampire.... >But for the last 3 years, I notice a big difference in the number of >player between tournament in europe and in US/canada. If you look the >last months tournament for example, in US and canada, the average is >below 15 players, but in europe it is above 20 (and check the EC in >germany 60players!!!! the next in belgium will be even grotter I >think). BTW, also generally true of other CCGs that are popular in both places. >But for me , I look like our europeen community is more actif than the >one in the other side of the atlantic ocean........ > >something to say about it ?? As was mentioned, North America tends to be far more fragmented. It's not just distance, though to go to the largest tournaments in my state would require travelling ~800km. I believe it also has something to do with Europeans, on average, seeing CCGs as more competitive activities. Lots of pockets of players, at least in the US as I don't follow Canada all that much and Mexico not at all, survive playing CCGs without getting wrapped up in (crossregional) tournament play.

> 2003-01-22 2003-06-05 incr % > > Europe 2596 3183 22.6 > > North America (inc Mexico) 2286 2603 13.8 > > > Only based on the nations earlier in this thread. > > Sten During So it look like our , old europe, where vampire are coming from ... is the most actif region in the world for VTES. about the distance.... french guys (from paris) went to the EC qualifier in germany... I think 5 hours drive minimum (correct me if I am wrong). Even some hungary player went to germany !? So the distance is not a good reason.... People look really more actif here, or at list, there are more willing to meet other unknown people, I know a guys in netherlands, who always go to vacation with a deck and try to find player there... amazing !

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote in message news:<bbnb83$teu$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net>... > > And I hear that more and more new players are starting in europe. > > We have a steady increase here in Germany, I know next to nothing about > other countries. But I think player numbers in the US are also increasing. In San Francisco, it seems to me that we're seeing a slight increase. Mainly, it's old players re-joining the Jyhad though. I haven't seen too many new players join the fray lately, though there are a couple. Are "kid" games like Yu-Gi-Oh just as popular in Europe? I think those may keep potential players away from a more adult game like VTES. > > But for me , I look like our europeen community is more actif than the > > one in the other side of the atlantic ocean........ > > Hard to say, but I guess I would vote slightly in favor of Europe (Old > Europe ! :-)) here. This might be due to the fact that everything is much > closer (distance) than in the US. LA->NY about 6000km, right ? Most > destinations in Europe can be reached under 1000km from our (german) > perspective (OK, I admit we have quite a central location). I think it's less about distance than density of population. Those places with big cities seem to do quite well, but there's a vast gulf between the East and West. There are only a handful of West Coast players that I'm aware of even planning on attending our own Continental Championships in Indy. It seems when you get to the East coast and Great Lakes, where there are more people in general, you'll find folks more willing to travel a few hours by car to play in big events. > > something to say about it ?? > > I think that you made some true and important statements here. Probably this > increase of activity in the european region should also be reflected in the > influence the european part of the V:EKN has in central issues. What about Carl Pilshatch? I really don't know the inner workings of the VEKN, but he seems to have significant influence. But then, he is the only European on the 5-member "Administrative Board." I suppose there's room for improved representation. Someone just needs to go diablerize LSJ to take his spot. :)

In message <64a19912.03060...@posting.google.com>, cu...@caramail.com (cure) mumbled something about: >about the distance.... french guys (from paris) went to the EC >qualifier in germany... I think 5 hours drive minimum (correct me if I >am wrong). Even some hungary player went to germany !? > >So the distance is not a good reason.... You don't understand. It's a 12-hour drive for us to get to the DC qualifier, and that's a CLOSE drive. The U.S. is much, much bigger than you think. It is a drive of several DAYS to reach the West Coast from the East Coast. The distance is the #1 reason. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje news:617vdv8ont6j02ihi...@4ax.com... > In message <64a19912.03060...@posting.google.com>, > cu...@caramail.com (cure) mumbled something about: > > >about the distance.... french guys (from paris) went to the EC > >qualifier in germany... I think 5 hours drive minimum (correct me if I > >am wrong). Even some hungary player went to germany !? > > > >So the distance is not a good reason.... > > You don't understand. It's a 12-hour drive for us to get to the DC > qualifier, and that's a CLOSE drive. > > The U.S. is much, much bigger than you think. It is a drive of several > DAYS to reach the West Coast from the East Coast. > > The distance is the #1 reason. I'm spaniard, but agree on that point. Mainly because of other factors. Here in spain there aren't highways with a quality similar to yours or to german's alike. And we are a bit less active on the moving factor, much like hobbits. We get tired only to think about travelling 4 hours to valencia or zaragoza, and we even think about a trip to marseille or so. Some look at me quite astonished when I mention I would like to ride to lisbon or paris for the EC qualifier. Some say that I must have a component of suicidal to even propose it. Sure, there are other ways to travel than motorbike or car, I've just realised that Ryanair has weekly flights from Girona (1 hour trip north of barcelona) to milan, frankfurt, glasgow, london and dublin for very cheap prices (much like easyjet ones) [ quoted text not captured ]

> Could it be that V:tES is relatively new in parts of Europe, and its > novelty makes it more popular there? I really have no idea. No (it is not "new" here). Yes (you have no idea). :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > You don't understand. It's a 12-hour drive for us to get to the DC > > qualifier, and that's a CLOSE drive. > > The U.S. is much, much bigger than you think. It is a drive of several > > DAYS to reach the West Coast from the East Coast. > > > > The distance is the #1 reason. But if I am not mistaken, there are other way to make the trip... and , for example, flight can be cheaper to your country than to ours ?! >We get tired only to think about travelling 4 hours to valencia or > zaragoza, and we even think about a trip to marseille or so. Some look at me > quite astonished when I mention I would like to ride to lisbon or paris for > the EC qualifier. Some say that I must have a component of suicidal to even > propose it. on the other hand, I already met 3 spanish in belgium and nederlands who come for study... really noce guys! > Sure, there are other ways to travel than motorbike or car, I've just > realised that Ryanair has weekly flights from Girona (1 hour trip north of > barcelona) to milan, frankfurt, glasgow, london and dublin for very cheap > prices (much like easyjet ones) So, don't go to marseille or to valencia... take the plane, and take a week end in another country. I am sure that player of this country will agree to take you to their place to sleep....

> As was mentioned, North America tends to be far more fragmented. It's not just > distance, though to go to the largest tournaments in my state would require > travelling ~800km. My max is 200 for a simple tournament (no ec or bigger) but I have friends all over france and when I go, I always have a deck with me...just in case! >I believe it also has something to do with Europeans, on > average, seeing CCGs as more competitive activities. and social too.... just in order to meet other people, other culture >Lots of pockets of > players, at least in the US as I don't follow Canada all that much and Mexico > not at all, survive playing CCGs without getting wrapped up in (crossregional) > tournament play. it is not the "getting wrapped up", at least not for me ! I just like to see how other people play, or to see other place in europe for a week end!

> it is not the "getting wrapped up", at least not for me ! > I just like to see how other people play, or to see other place in > europe for a week end! That愀 exactly the point. And the hospitality of V:TES players is unparalleled. Wherever I got in Europe someone was willing to host me. And there is no better way to visit a place than get it shown by a guy who is living there since 20+ years. (Insider) Except for the "R慨B club mabye, but that愀 a different story. -- johannes walch v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/

[ quoted text not captured ] I guess you have to ask one of the russians about the metagame. Going from seven to 22 players makes an insane percentage increase. Almost all players seem to be living in Moscow. I'm actually more impressed with the increase in Slovakia and the Phillipines, not to speak about the incredible increase of the registered spanish playerbase. Sten During

[ quoted text not captured ] Numbercrunching those assumptions :) Clumping together two lists. One followup on the top 20 originally published by Damnans. Followup was done december 12 2002. The other list was done june 03 listing cities I know of with 40 or more registered players. Cordoba and Castellón de la Plana were dropped from the followup and Sudney and Valencia were added. Dec Jun % increase Paris (France) 150 164 9.3 Europe Madrid (Spain) 110 125 13.6 Europe Barcelona (Spain) 93 123 32.2 Europe Los Angeles (USA) 98 105 7.1 N Am Montreal (Canada) 75 97 29.3 N Am Sao Paulo (Brazil) 87 88 1.1 S Am Lisbon (Portugal) 73 87 19.1 Europe Budapest (Hungary) 71 85 19.7 Europe Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) 63 70 11.1 S Am Vienna (Austria) 55 69 25.4 Europe Winnipeg (Canada) 53 68 28.3 N Am London (UK) 58 61 5.1 Europe Trondheim (Norway) 36 50 38.8 Europe Palma de Mallorca (Spain) 46 49 6.5 Europe Sydney (Australia) ? 48 ? Aus Prague (Czech Republic) 38 47 23.6 Europe Gothenburg (Sweden) 35 46 31.4 Europe Stockholm (Sweden) 46 46 0 Europe Santiago (Chile) 40 46 15.0 S Am Turku (Finland) 33 43 30.3 Europe Valencia (Spain) ? 43 ? Europe Helsinki (Finland) 37 42 13.5 Europe Zaragoza (Spain) 37 42 13.5 Europe Toronto (Canada) 36 40 11.1 N Am A total of 24 cities listed. Europe 16 North America 4 South America 3 Australia 1 Spain and Canada are notable nations with a high amount of concentration of their players. USA is notable for their lack of playerconcentration. Hungary, Austria, Norway, Czech Republic and Chile are all extremes with most of their players nationwide gathered in one single place. All in all it seems clear that european players tend to clump together making for very large local playgroups. Lazily clicking through the top 20 constructed players from the nations represented above I do not immediately see a major difference in the number of games play, which goes against the assumption that europeans would be more active on the tournament-scene. The two notable exeptions to this rule are Sweden and United Kingdom with more than half of their national top 20 constructed players having a total of 40 or more games played. Please observe that these last numbers are not thoroughly checked. They are also immediately skewed by those cities not sedning in their reports as required - and checking the online tournament calendar backwards it's clear that some cities should have players with 200 - 300 games played by now had all registered tournaments actually been played with reports sent in. Conclusion, though, is that Europe is more concentrated and generates more new players than North America at the moment, but europeans are not more actively playing tournaments than the players from North America. Sten During

I personally believe this scene is caused by 2 main factors: 1. Traffic/Driving distance: USA is much bigger, and one country, so the motivation to drive to a place to play with a group of 10 ppl is much more challenging.. not to mention some places like Los Angeles has distasteful traffic at rush hours.. 2. Personal business: USA citizens are much busier and overworked compared to European citizens on average. Europeans knows how to enjoy life much better than most USA citizens. Therefore lack of time and also motivation afterwork will cause the mentality of 'I'll just go home and passout', or 'Will my wife force me to sleep on the couch if I go to play games instead of listening to her naggying?', or even 'It's just a game, I'll go suck blood some other time..' ---DeistMutts---

DeistMutts wrote: > I personally believe this scene is caused by 2 main factors: > > 1. Traffic/Driving distance: USA is much bigger, and one country, so > the motivation to drive to a place to play with a group of 10 ppl is > much more challenging.. not to mention some places like Los Angeles > has distasteful traffic at rush hours.. > > 2. Personal business: USA citizens are much busier and overworked > compared to European citizens on average. Europeans knows > how to enjoy > life much better than most USA citizens. <cringes and ducks behind solid object> 'How to win friends and Influence people' by DeistMutts Rob -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

DeistMutts wrote: <SNIP> > home and passout', or 'Will my wife force me to sleep on the couch if > I go to play games instead of listening to her naggying?', or even > 'It's just a game, I'll go suck blood some other time..' Marry a gamer - my wife's responsible for my playing this game :) Sten During

the next in belgium will be even grotter I think). > > Certainly hope so :-)) > > > > All in all it seems clear that european players tend to clump together > making for very large local playgroups. > I disagree. They don't necessarily "clump together", we're just crazy enough to go to a lot of different countries just to play VTES. This isn't the reason for large playgroups. I would believe that just to be consequential to being the only (or one of both ) playgroups in a huge city. > Lazily clicking through the top 20 constructed players from the nations > represented above I do not immediately see a major difference in the > number of games play, which goes against the assumption that europeans > would be more active on the tournament-scene. The two notable exeptions > to this rule are Sweden and United Kingdom with more than half of their > national top 20 constructed players having a total of 40 or more games > played. > > Please observe that these last numbers are not thoroughly checked. They > are also immediately skewed by those cities not sedning in their reports > as required - and checking the online tournament calendar backwards it's > clear that some cities should have players with 200 - 300 games played > by now had all registered tournaments actually been played with reports > sent in. I think you're drawing too many conclusions from this list. You're forgetting that maybe players have been playing for a log time, and only now start to play tournaments, or any such possible scenario's. One thing is for sure: due to the fact that some playgroups (like our little nation, GO BELGIUM!!) really are crazy enough to attend as many tournaments as possible, this automatically creates larger tournaments, no matter the distance. Also, but that's maybe too much a personal belief of mine, I've always thought VTES is more of a european style CCG than an American thing. Could be wrong there however.. Greetz Jo

>Lazily clicking through the top 20 constructed players from the nations >represented above I do not immediately see a major difference in the >number of games play, which goes against the assumption that europeans >would be more active on the tournament-scene. >Conclusion, though, is that Europe is more concentrated and generates >more new players than North America at the moment, but europeans are not >more actively playing tournaments than the players from North America. I fail to see how looking at the top 20 players numbers is useful for determining whether, on average, a region's player base is more or less likely to play in tournaments or be willing to travel to play tournaments outside of the local area. The numbers that would have to be run to get an idea of relative tournament interest would be something along the lines of quantity of product sold for a given region vs. number of V:EKN registered players for the region.

ON a purely local note. I play in a games shop in Guildford (UK). I discovered the shop around February and started playing VTES (again after playing briefly around the time Dark Sovs came out but running out of people to play with) about March. There were two people who were already playing (one of whom has played in a tournament I believe). We now have 11 who know how to play and have expressed an interest in playing further (I think there are 2 who haven't bought their own cards). Most of these players were playing LoTR before we corrupted them. Muahahahaaa! ;D (unfortunately they are in a prolonged LoTR tournament so it's quite tricky to lure them away) So that's a 300% increase or so in a couple of months and none of it shows up in your statistics (at least not yet). (ok 10 people isn't very significant nationally) Couple of Qs about tournaments: What prizes do you get from WW if you apply for them? How much do you have to advertise your tournament to qualify? Is there a place online where you can expect players to look for tournaments? (I imagine they get on the VTES/VEKN website but do people look there regularly?)

>> I will be really interested in having some information from white wolf >> about the sale europe/us also to compare!!! > > I am quite sure WW will NOT reveal such information to the public. I would > not, either, if I was in charge. Maybe I'm being dense but... why not? Most (public) company results show breakdown of sales geographically anyway (over here anyway and I do realise that the USA has weaker regulation). Besides why shouldn't people know this. You think people are going to stop buying cards because fewer are being sold elsewhere? I just can't see any reason to hide the figures...

Derek Ray wrote: You don't understand. It's a 12-hour drive for us to get to the DC qualifier, and that's a CLOSE drive. The U.S. is much, much bigger than you think. It is a drive of several DAYS to reach the West Coast from the East Coast. The distance is the #1 reason. Don't play down the density issue. Since I've been to the Netherlands and live in Michigan I'll use those as a quick example. NL population is around 15million Michigan is about 10. is terms of land mass NL is 1/3 the size of Michigan, which means the average population density is around 1/6th that of NL. If I'm off on the math LSJ can get you a better result. Raille

> NL population is around 15million > Michigan is about 10. > > is terms of land mass NL is 1/3 the size of Michigan, which means the > average population density is around 1/6th that of NL. If I'm off on > the math LSJ can get you a better result. > > Raille Mich Pop = 2/3 NL Pop Mich Area=3 Nl Area Mich Pop/Area= 2/9 NL Area That doesn't negate the utility of cheap flights however -most games happen in population centers right? I'm under th epossibly erroneous impression that that Michigan population is much less evenly distributed than in the Netherlands (and Europpe generally).

[ quoted text not captured ] That would be correct. We tend to be in small clumps seperated by large areas of vacant land. Holland is 45miles from Grand Rapids which is 60 miles or so from Lansing, which is another 80 miles from the detroit area. You milage may vary, since I'm not double checking the actuall distances. Raille

I make certain friends and foes.. but the bottom line is, I seek the truth and sensible arguments that leads to the path of truth/facts.. what I claimed is just my observation, and either a probable cause or purely missing-the-target guesses.. I've only lived in Germany when little, so basically I have no clue how Europeans socialize.. just making observations and conversations from Europeans visiting USA and the European students studying at the colleges I went to. :) But seriously tho, I sure hope I didn't offend anyone with the observation I made.. ppl that know me in life should know .. I hope.. hmm... do they? *cringe* :) ---DeistMutts--- "robtreasure" <robtreasure....@web2news.net> wrote in message news:<3733...@web2news.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1w20rw2elywwm$.1lofb2up2un6y$.dlg@40tude.net... > >> I will be really interested in having some information from white wolf > >> about the sale europe/us also to compare!!! I have a vague memory of hearing from a WotC rep that European V:TES sales amounted to about 1/2 of total sales at that time. -- Robert Goudie Chairman, V:EKN rob...@vtesinla.org

In message <bASEa.37241$rO.34...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Robert Goudie <rrgo...@earthlink.net> writes: >I have a vague memory of hearing from a WotC rep that European V:TES sales >amounted to about 1/2 of total sales at that time. Subject: VTES-L Digest - 14 Feb 1998 to 15 Feb 1998 From: Ryan S. Dancey <Ry...@FRPG.COM> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:41:00 -0800 "Unfortunately, all of the overseas business added together accounted for less than 10% of the VtES business. " Yet less than a month later: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:44:25 -0800 From: "Ryan S. Dancey" <Ry...@FRPG.COM> Subject: Monthly List FAQ - Including How to Unsubscribe from the List " We're still looking at the responses to determine where we stand vis a vis international sales of the product line. " Slightly freaky? I'd say so. Especially when you figure in: From: "Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> Subject: Re: Sabbat War in the secondary market Message-ID: <fgTO5.12658$pj3....@news1.atl> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:54:23 -0500 Meaning that normally 30% of our sales on our books and things go to Europe, but for Sabbat War 50% of the shipment went to Europe. Factor in the complaints about the Sabbat reprint not selling well - like, uh, did you even advertise it outside your office? - and it only fuels the theory that Dancey wasn't even paying the slightest amount of attention. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

In Italy the tournments are attended normally by 20-25 players (also because "the core" players lives in cities that are not too far). The last EC was attended by 53 italian players and this year we think the number may grow to near 70 (with some foreign). The distance between cities make the difference: people from Torino, Milano, Crema and Genova must travel only 150-300 Km to partecipate tournaments... But now we have also a forum and that has modificated the "tournment travelling attitude" of our players: now some of us travel 400-800 Km to attend a tournment (to visit new cities and to know forum people).

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<9fsubsx81zbu$.9xfdoqac...@40tude.net>... > That doesn't negate the utility of cheap flights however -most games > happen in population centers right? I'm under th epossibly erroneous > impression that that Michigan population is much less evenly > distributed than in the Netherlands (and Europpe generally). I've heard flights mentioned several times in this thread. We have low-cost carriers in the US, but nothing so cheap as Ryan Air, or the equivalent. Expect to spend US$150 roundtrip at a minimum, unless you are headed for a _very_ close by city. Yes, sometimes you can get flights for $79 roundtrip, or even less, but those are promotional rates, and aren't typically available to the right destination to coincide with a tournament... And I pity the poor saps caught in monopolized hub cities, like Charlotte, NC (the US Airways hub). Since one carrier controls 95% of the flights in and out, they typically charge a 4x premium on roundtrip flights with Charlotte as a destination. Ask Legbiter. On his three trips over here, I don't think he's had a chance to fly into Charlotte once, due to the exorbitant pricing. Flying is not a reasonable alternative to driving... DaveZ Atom Weaver

> > > 2. Personal business: USA citizens are much busier and overworked > > > compared to European citizens on average. Europeans knows > > > how to enjoy > > > life much better than most USA citizens. > > > > <cringes and ducks behind solid object> > > > > 'How to win friends and Influence people' by DeistMutts DeistMutts is correct. Statistically speaking, Americans spend more time in the workplace on average than any other country in the world. If my memory serves me correctly it is like on average 50 hours a week. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp Prince of Lafayette, LA. USA

In message <4c6f3f3e.03060...@posting.google.com>, atomweaver <guenh...@mindspring.com> writes: >Yes, sometimes you can get >flights for $79 roundtrip, or even less, but those are promotional >rates, and aren't typically available to the right destination to >coincide with a tournament... Most UK based low-cost airlines are similar. Quite a number of advertised cheap fairs are exclusive of airport taxes, and only available in very limited slots. Additionally, they tend to fly to/from less helpful airports for many people - ones that can be up to 100 miles from where the names says. My current favourite is Manchester Blackpool - Blackpool is 50 miles from Manchester. >Ask Legbiter. On >his three trips over here, I don't think he's had a chance to fly into >Charlotte once, due to the exorbitant pricing. My understanding of the American system is that most airports tend to have a major influence from a given carrier - especially in the case of hubs. This is less true in the UK - especially since the low-cost airlines went to smaller airports, increasing competition for vaguely similar routes. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:<ve971a3...@corp.supernews.com>... > > DeistMutts is correct. Statistically speaking, Americans spend more time in > the workplace on average than any other country in the world. If my memory > serves me correctly it is like on average 50 hours a week. A recent news article here pegged south koreans as having an average workweek of 55 hours, and iirc that was rated as the highest in the world. T

[ quoted text not captured ] YEAH! Lazy Americans :o) <Rob chugs beer and can't _quite_ reach the remote from the sofa so teevee stays on same channel> [ quoted text not captured ]

> Flying is not a reasonable alternative to driving... You know those laughable 50mph speed limits they have in the US? Is it true that they were introduced to reduce fuel consumption? LOL Are they taken seriously? I was trundling down the A3 the other day (duel carraiageway; speed limit 70 mph) doing about 90. I looked in my mirror and a police car had come up behind me. I pulled into the other lane and he went past. You can understand that I was thoroughly bemused by the film "Speed" -I expect to get overtaken regularly at 90. German speed limits are so much better ;-)

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:3qwokenppt20.1g...@40tude.net... > > Flying is not a reasonable alternative to driving... > > You know those laughable 50mph speed limits they have in the US? Is it true > that they were introduced to reduce fuel consumption? LOL > Are they taken seriously? That was like 20-25 years ago. 55 MPH was, IIRC (I was only like 9 years old), during the Carter administration (or maybe Ford). We had lines at the gasoline station and if the last digit of your license plate was an odd number you could only buy gas on Mon, Wed, Fri. Desperate times and all... > I was trundling down the A3 the other day (duel carraiageway; speed limit > 70 mph) doing about 90. I looked in my mirror and a police car had come up > behind me. I pulled into the other lane and he went past. You can > understand that I was thoroughly bemused by the film "Speed" -I expect to > get overtaken regularly at 90. I think we can drive around 70 or 75 in Los Angeles without getting pulled over. Then again, there aren't many opportunities to even reach the speed limit on your typical morning commute. > German speed limits are so much better ;-) I can't argue with that. -Robert

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:3qwokenppt20.1g...@40tude.net: >> Flying is not a reasonable alternative to driving... > > You know those laughable 50mph speed limits they have in the US? Is it > true that they were introduced to reduce fuel consumption? LOL > Are they taken seriously? > Currently most speed limits are about 70 mph, but people driving 80 is common, and you'll see people driving 90 or 100. The major metropolitan areas in the state where I live have speed limits of 55 or 60, not to conserve fuel (we dont conserve fuel in Texas) or for public safety (if you die, it's your problem). It's to cut down on pollution (specifically ozone production), which we have to do because of a federal law enacted to meet international treaty obligations the US took at the behest of European countries. So the irony of a European (I presume) deriding the low US low speed limits is underwhelming to say the least. On the plus side though, we pay $1.25 US (1.07 Euros) per gallon of gas. --Andrew

RavATw...@vampirethemasquerade.com (RavATwoFaces) wrote in news:1701e7a4.03060...@posting.google.com: [ quoted text not captured ] In Texas we get about 15 players per tournament, with 22 attending the South Central Qualifier. Considering that Texas has a population of about 20 million, compared to Italy's 60 million, that's not bad. Especially considering that there are some major cities in this state that are 7 to 10 hours driving from tournament sites. On the other hand, 3 of the 10 largest US cities are within 3 hours of my house and we could only get 22 people willing to drive to the tournament down the street. --Andrew

Mark Allen wrote: > I would think that It has something to do with landmass size. Playgroups in > NA (especially Canada) have a larger distance between them in general so > getting somewhere to play a tournament is a big deal. For myself, the next > closest groups that hold tournaments are located in Montreal, Toronto and > Quebec City that are 2, 4 and 8 hours of driving from Ottawa respectively. > I am certain that the more populated areas in the States (NY, LA, Chicago) > don't have the same problem but in contrast, a player in Paris may have > access to 3 groups within and hour using the excellent transit/rail system. > Correct me if i am wrong but I assume its a simple matter of geography and > population density. Actually, while the rail and bus system here in Europe are very good, the distances still eat a lot of time. A trip from Kaiserslautern, Germany to Wien, Austria is a 10 hour trip by rail (one way). Going by air is usually less time consuming and the cost is generally the same or better than rail (unless you have some real good discounts). Many people I usually see, come by auto, at least in Germany. I can only guess that it is mainly due to the country's central location. Driving for me now is about a 2 hour trip from Spangdahlem to Mannheim if I am traveling at the prescribed 130km per hour. As for going to Barcelona for the EC, if I was able to make it (which I will not be able to do, unfortunately, despite qualifying) I would go by air via Ryan Air at pennies to the dollar/Euro. I have heard of stories in the past about how people have driven half-way across the US to attend some of the major tournaments, so I am not really sure if it is a simple matter of geography and population density. It may be just real world interferance (RWI), a lack of funding (possibly from RWI) or lack of desire. Michael Eichler Prince of Spangdahlem

Andrew Joubert <aejo...@hetmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns8FAB56B0446EDa...@199.45.49.11>... >> On the plus side though, we pay $1.25 US (1.07 Euros) per gallon of gas. > The national average is a bit higher (closer to $1.75 in May), but your point is taken... In that same time period, it seems that Europeans averaged ca. $4.00 per gallon in that same time period) Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html#Motor Whats even more interesting is to download the speadsheet that excludes taxes from the average weekly price. France, Germany and the UK are spending less per gallon on average than the US in the same time periods, presumably due to delivery advantages. How does taxation get so out of control? DaveZ Atom Weaver

> The major metropolitan areas in the state where I live have speed limits > of 55 or 60, not to conserve fuel (we dont conserve fuel in Texas) or for > public safety (if you die, it's your problem). It's to cut down on > pollution (specifically ozone production), which we have to do because of > a federal law enacted to meet international treaty obligations the US > took at the behest of European countries. Gosh! I hadn't realised that the US implemented treaties ;-P > So the irony of a European (I presume) deriding the low US low speed > limits is underwhelming to say the least. Yes (European) but it wasn't so much the speed limits as the idea of Americans conserving fuel.

guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in news:4c6f3f3e.03061...@posting.google.com: > France, Germany and the > UK are spending less per gallon on average than the US in the same > time periods, presumably due to delivery advantages. How does > taxation get so out of control? > The off topic answer: The European gasoline taxes reflect the true cost of gas more than the American prices, because the oil companies have huge federal subsidies that are being paid through taxes, whether at the pump, or taken out in your yearly income tax. The VTES answer: Pentex Subversion, Baby. --Andrew

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > Gosh! I hadn't realised that the US implemented treaties ;-P You Know You've Been Playing Too Much VTES, When... ...reading the comment above, you think: this is a perfect example of the rest of the table ganging up on you. (Nobody likes a deal-breaker going for a table sweep.) :-) -- hg@ | Anybody who still believes in the media iki | must have been in a coma for the past 30 years. .fi | -Robert Anton Wilson

On 11 Jun 2003 11:17:19 +0300, Janne Hägglund wrote: > Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > >> Gosh! I hadn't realised that the US implemented treaties ;-P > > You Know You've Been Playing Too Much VTES, When... > > ...reading the comment above, you think: this is a perfect example of > the rest of the table ganging up on you. (Nobody likes a deal-breaker > going for a table sweep.) :-) LOL

Andrew Joubert <m...@fakeemail.edu> wrote in message news:<Xns8FACA58AB4D6ae...@199.45.49.11>... [ quoted text not captured ] ? I'm not believing that the whole difference can be made up with subsidies, nor would that money come from federal income tax. From http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petroleum_marketing_monthly/current/pdf/pmmtab43.pdf the US fuel sales of Regular unleaded gasoline (87 octance, the most common) alone was 47,874.6 thousand gallons per day in March of 2003. If thats the average for the year (and it won't be, usage is higher in the summer months), then your suggested subsidy would be; 47,874.6 x 1000 x 2.75 (difference between avg. Euro and US prices) x 365 = $48,053,527,500 per annum. Such a figure is untenable, especially considering that you haven't calculated yet for mid-grade and premium gasoline, nor aircraft fuel... (continued in jest) It think that Diest Mutts offers a better explanation: "Europeans knows how to enjoy life much better than most USA citizens." so, the increased recreational time Europeans allow themselves has softened their will to assert influence over their rulers. Hence, soft-willed complacency on the part of the populace is probably to blame. (If pressed, I'll admit that drawing such a conclusion is as short-sited and biased as Diest Mutts' own original assertion, above) Tell me, what does the EU do with gasoline taxes? DaveZ Atom Weaver

[ quoted text not captured ] We have a National Health Service (free at the point of consumption). We used to have free University education too :-/ (I think most of Europe still does) Are Oil companies actually subsidised? If so it's news to me. Certainly we don't spend it on clearing up all the pollution though the high prices probably do have some impact on this (our cars are certainly more efficient from what I've heard).

In article <4c6f3f3e.03061...@posting.google.com>, atomweaver <guenh...@mindspring.com> wrote: >Tell me, what does the EU do with gasoline taxes? three words: welfare entitlement programs. though discussion of us economic/social policy v. european economic/social policy is so remarkably off charter I can't help but suggest redirecting this topic to talk.politics.europe or similar. gomi i have strong opinions you don't want me to share here, trust me -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in news:4c6f3f3e.03061...@posting.google.com: > Andrew Joubert <m...@fakeemail.edu> wrote in message > news:<Xns8FACA58AB4D6ae...@199.45.49.11>... >> The off topic answer: The European gasoline taxes reflect the true >> cost of gas more than the American prices, because the oil companies >> have huge federal subsidies that are being paid through taxes, >> whether at the pump, or taken out in your yearly income tax. >> > ? I'm not believing that the whole difference can be made up with > subsidies, nor would that money come from federal income tax. > > From > http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petroleu > m_marketing_monthly/current/pdf/pmmtab43.pdf > > the US fuel sales of Regular unleaded gasoline (87 octance, the most > common) alone was 47,874.6 thousand gallons per day in March of 2003. > If thats the average for the year (and it won't be, usage is higher in > the summer months), then your suggested subsidy would be; > > 47,874.6 x 1000 x 2.75 (difference between avg. Euro and US prices) x > 365 = > > $48,053,527,500 per annum. Such a figure is untenable, especially > considering that you haven't calculated yet for mid-grade and premium > gasoline, nor aircraft fuel... Please don't take my original pithy reply as a serious policy argument, it was mostly the set up for a joke, and as such was simplified for Europeans and VTES players who could care less about US energy policy. The United States does not have a direct subsidy to big oil, but instead gives them money through tax breaks and funding of research and development. Additionally, the true cost of gasoline would reflect the environmental consequences of using gasoline, the military and geopolitical subsidies necessary to give America the influence and the oil producing regions of the world the stability we need for them to have, and other almost intangable costs. And please don't assume that just because I say such hidden subsidies exist, that I think they are bad things. But I would look you in the eye and say with all honesty that I believe that the United States would be justified in taxing 48 billion dollars from gasoline consumers, instead of taking it from income tax. Andrew Joubert, EcoTerrorist (During your influence phase, tap me to move one blood from the blood bank to any Gangrel in your uncontrolled region)

> The United States does not have a direct subsidy to big oil, but instead > gives them money through tax breaks and funding of research and > development. Additionally, the true cost of gasoline would reflect the What tax breaks? Any idea how this compares to what teh oil companies spend lobbying and choosing the President? > Andrew Joubert, EcoTerrorist > (During your influence phase, tap me to move one blood from the blood > bank to any Gangrel in your uncontrolled region) During your untap phase, burn this card to burn a ready Ventrue or Giovanni with capacity greater than 6 ;-)

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:1j73jw0mdm15z$.nlcw5dcq1yr$.d...@40tude.net: >> The United States does not have a direct subsidy to big oil, but >> instead gives them money through tax breaks and funding of research >> and development. Additionally, the true cost of gasoline would >> reflect the > What tax breaks? Any idea how this compares to what teh oil companies > spend lobbying and choosing the President? > I can't* tell you exactly what breaks the oil companies get. Certainly most multinational companies in the United States get some form of tax incentives, in part to encourage them to stay in the United States, instead of relocating to another country. Since the oil companies have a lot of political and economic infuence, they've been able to win more than their fair share of such concessions I believe that is considerably less money, however, is spent on lobbying and supporting political candidates. There are limits to how much a single source can give to a particular campaign, although there are ways of getting around that. However, oil companies and related influences are one of the strongest political donor groups. Enron, of recent scandal fame, was the largest politcal donor to campaigns in the 2000 election year...including donations to both politcal parties, even donating to opposing candidates. It's not about who gets elected, it's about getting to talk to them when they're in office. Here's a estimate of the true cost of gasoline from the politcal left http://www.progress.org/gasoline.htm $15.00 US per gallon, which sounds a bit extreme, but at least makes the point that gas should be higher than what Americans pay for it. No wonder Pentex Loves You. --Andrew *can't meaning I'm not gonna bother looking it up, cause I probably wouldn't understand what I found :-)

Andrew Joubert wrote: > I can't* tell you exactly what breaks the oil companies get. Certainly OK, guys. We've spent enough packets on this thread. If you wish to continue, take it to talk.politics, please. Follow-ups redirected accordingly. Thanks, Scott -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 22:06:40 +0200, "robtreasure" <robtreasure....@web2news.net> scrawled: >Talonz wrote: >> "XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message >> news:<ve971a3...@corp.supernews.com>... >> >>> DeistMutts is correct. Statistically speaking, Americans >>> spend more time in >>> the workplace on average than any other country in the >>> world. If my memory >>> serves me correctly it is like on average 50 hours a week. >> >> A recent news article here pegged south koreans as having an average >> workweek of 55 hours, and iirc that was rated as the highest in the >> world. > >YEAH! Lazy Americans :o) > ><Rob chugs beer and can't _quite_ reach the remote from the sofa so >teevee stays on same channel> ooh ooh ooh! queue Futurama quote here! sort of... Bender, lying on sofa watching TV, reacts to some bad news with "Aw geez, let's just pray i have the energy to get myself another beer", hits 'beer' button on remote, a mechanical arm with a bottle of beer comes up from behind TV, extends over to Bender, and begins to pour the beer on his chest as he reclines with his mouth open. he responds with 'ah what is this? the middle ages!?', and slides down the couch a bit to position his mouth to catch the beer. i like futurama salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

> > ooh ooh ooh! queue Futurama quote here! sort of... > > Bender, lying on sofa watching TV, reacts to some bad news with "Aw > geez, let's just pray i have the energy to get myself another beer", > hits 'beer' button on remote, a mechanical arm with a bottle of beer > comes up from behind TV, extends over to Bender, and begins to pour > the beer on his chest as he reclines with his mouth open. > he responds with 'ah what is this? the middle ages!?', and slides down > the couch a bit to position his mouth to catch the beer. > > i like futurama to bad Fox cancelled the show! > > salem > domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm -- Andreas Nusser www.vekn.de a.nu...@vekn.de

On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:15:07 +0200, Andreas Nusser <time...@NOSPAMscram.de> scrawled: > >> >> ooh ooh ooh! queue Futurama quote here! sort of... >> >> Bender, lying on sofa watching TV, reacts to some bad news with "Aw >> geez, let's just pray i have the energy to get myself another beer", >> hits 'beer' button on remote, a mechanical arm with a bottle of beer >> comes up from behind TV, extends over to Bender, and begins to pour >> the beer on his chest as he reclines with his mouth open. >> he responds with 'ah what is this? the middle ages!?', and slides down >> the couch a bit to position his mouth to catch the beer. >> >> i like futurama > >to bad Fox cancelled the show! the bastards. i knew i shouldn have signed that online petition. i bet they were one signature short of continuing the series.... [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: >>to bad Fox cancelled the show! > > > the bastards. i knew i shouldn have signed that online petition. i bet > they were one signature short of continuing the series.... > I doubt it. I think the Futurama online petition had more signatures than any other petition before. Even human rights and petitions against war of any kind had less. ;) But after watching the whole futurama seasons in a row I enjoy watching the new Enterprise show. Jolene Blalock is a good replacement towards my dear old friend Bender. [ quoted text not captured ]