Variable bleeds dependent on preys clan query ?

Here's a question on the special abilities that grant extra bleed dependent on vampires that your prey may have... What happens when I use Constanza Vinti (special ability: +2 bleed if prey has a ready ventrue) to bleed my prey (who has a ready Ventrue) and he deflects it to his prey (who has no Ventrue) Does my bleed remain at +2 ? A direct interpretation of the text would state that it would remain at +2 but this seems rather silly to me. A similar query applies to other vampires too. Like Vasilis: if he is ready all Giovanni's get +1 bleed against Methuselah's who control Brujah - does a Giovanni's bleed go up and down as the bleed is deflected between Meth's controlling Brujah and not having any Brujah? Any comments? Ian

ianb...@aol.com writes: >Here's a question on the special abilities that grant extra bleed >dependent on vampires that your prey may have... It has been errata'ed to get extra bleed only while bleeding a Meth (any Meth) who controls an approprite minion: From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Rules Team Rulings: 05/30/96 Date: 31 May 1996 23:37:05 GMT Message-ID: <4onvr1$8...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> 9) A vampire who gets a bleed bonus if your prey controls a vampire of a certain clan (or other sect) should get her bleed bonus if the Methuselah she bleeds controls a vampire of that clan (or sect). Thus, the vampires your prey controls only matter if you're bleeding your prey. This includes: Constanza Vinzi, Cornelius Ottavio, Elisabetta Romano, Katarina, Queen Anne, Rebekka, Ranjan Rishi, and Sigrid Bekker >What happens when I use Constanza Vinti (special ability: +2 bleed if prey >has a ready ventrue) to bleed my prey (who has a ready Ventrue) and he >deflects it to his prey (who has no Ventrue) Does my bleed remain at +2 ? > A direct interpretation of the text would state that it would remain at >+2 but this seems rather silly to me. With the errata, no. >A similar query applies to other vampires too. Like Vasilis: if he is >ready all Giovanni's get +1 bleed against Methuselah's who control Brujah >- does a Giovanni's bleed go up and down as the bleed is deflected between >Meth's controlling Brujah and not having any Brujah? Yes. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | It's not the same when I'm http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | not in the holodeck Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | - Riker

6-Kills thoughtfully stated: : No, they ruled that the + bleed only applies if the Methuselah you're : bleeding controls a ready vampire of the appropriate clan. So if : Constanza gets deflected to someone w/out a ready Ventrue, she doesn't get : the +2, regardless of whether or not your prey has Ventrue. Well, I'm inclined to disagree, but only because the card text is so specific: "If your prey has a ready Ventrue..." Which is true... "... Constanza gets +2 bleed" Now it doesn't say anything about the recipient of the bleed, just that your prey must have a Ventrue. Comments? Ewok -- ___ /^\/\ ,, Juan Burwell | __| || ( {=@=====[=] Amherst College | _| \\/\// /^\ ||// \_/\/ '' jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu |___| \/\/ \_/ ||\\

> "If your prey has a ready Ventrue..." > > Which is true... > > "... Constanza gets +2 bleed" > > Now it doesn't say anything about the recipient of the bleed, just > that your prey must have a Ventrue. Comments? WotC must have overloked this one but in a certain book you can get on the market, it describes what a bleed is 'an action to undermine the powerbase of another methusela'. Therefore, Constanza should only get the +2 bleed when bleeding _any_ methusela who controls a ready ventrue (presumably, the vampire has some 'dirt' on the ventrue and can do more damage') The text saying 'if your prey...' assumes that you only bleed your prey. In our games, we see if the recipient has the ventrue or not to see if bleed mods are applied. In your games of course, do as you please. Dave W. da...@quarks.co.uk (Deck is Malkavian Celerity/Auspex/Obfsucate)

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, that's now an official ruling (which I was first to suggest on the Net ::)) J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request

In article <58191q$6...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >>A similar query applies to other vampires too. Like Vasilis: if he is >>ready all Giovanni's get +1 bleed against Methuselah's who control Brujah >>- does a Giovanni's bleed go up and down as the bleed is deflected between >>Meth's controlling Brujah and not having any Brujah? > >Yes. How does this apply when cards are played which depend on the amount of bleed. EG Archon Investigation ... I suppose the bleed value is counted at the time the Archon is played ? What about telepathic counter ... does a -2 bleed modifier on a 1 point bleed go to -1 so that if deflected onto a Meth. which raises the bleed it is counted to still reduce the overall bleed by -2 ? Ian

[ quoted text not captured ] AI takes effect immediately - there is no further reaction (save for Sudden Reversal, which operates intuitively), and AI can only be played when the bleed is directed at you. So, yes, you count the amount of the bleed as it applies to you in order to determine if you can play AI. TC is just another modifier to the total amount of the bleed. It stays with the bleed amount no matter where the bleed ends up. [ quoted text not captured ]

>>Here's a question on the special abilities that grant extra bleed >>dependent on vampires that your prey may have... >It has been errata'ed to get extra bleed only while bleeding a >Meth (any Meth) who controls an approprite minion: <proof deleted> OK now here's the question. What about Foreshadowing Destruction. If I'm bleeding someone with 4 pool and add the Superior FD after he declines to block. that makes it a bleed of 4 which he then deflects to his prey with 20 pool. Is it still a bleed of 4 or is the FD at superior nullified because the meth being bled no longer has less than 10 pool. The only thing I am certain of is that I do not have the luxury of choosing how it is played after it is played. I must decide whether or not to use it at superior as it is played and if I am originally bleeding someone with less than 10 pool and I use it at superior and then it gets deflected, I assume that the FD does nothing (fizzles) Just an interesting situation that I have gotten into more often than I would care to admit. Stu

st...@atl.mindspring.com (Stuart J. Pieloch) writes: >OK now here's the question. >What about Foreshadowing Destruction. >If I'm bleeding someone with 4 pool >and add the Superior FD after he declines to block. that makes it a >bleed of 4 which he then deflects to his prey with 20 pool. >Is it still a bleed of 4 or is the FD at superior nullified because >the meth being bled no longer has less than 10 pool. If it were treated the same as minion-based modifiers, or if the card-text requirement is treated as part of the "modification" of the action (not just a restriction on when you can use the effect to modify the action), then what you say is close to what would actually happen: It is effectively nullified (it's still in effect, but doesn't boost the bleed since the requirement on card text is not being met). If the bleed were subsequently bounced to some poor sap who had less than 10 pool, the FD would again boost the bleed amount (having had its card-text requirement met). (It doesn't actually "fizzle" - it simply fails to boost the bleed. "fizzling" would imply that it would no longer modify the bleed, even if the bleed was re-bounced to a valid target.) But, *if* it is treated as the other action modifiers (that is, modifying the action directly rather than the minion), *and* the card-text requirement was interpretted as a restriction on when you can modify the action (rather than part of the mofication itself), *then* it would function exactly as a +3 bleed (like conditioning) which could only be played if the /current/ target had less than 10 pool. Once the +3 was added to the bleed, however, it would stick to the bleed no matter where it ended up. Anyone care for a ruling? (I know I would!) -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | * <-- Tribble http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | o <-- Jean-Luc Tribble [ quoted text not captured ]