Puzzler

This would just be a rules question, but while we're waiting, let's just make it a trivia question: Vamp A: (5 blood / 8 capacity) Vamp B: (1 blood / 5 capacity) Vamp A attempts to bleed. Vamp B blocks. Vamp A plays superior Dawn Operation. Combat. Vamp A plays superior Drawing out the Beast. Vamp B strikes: superior Acrobatics for a dodge (+ additional strike). Vamp A strikes: hands for 1 (aggravated). Vamp B uses his addit'l strike: hands for 2 (aggravated) Q: Vamp B wants to play Amaranth to diablerize Vamp A? Can he do it? What is the final outcome of the combat? Explain and cite rulings to support your answer. (Tricky timing issues involved) ---- Are we having fun yet? -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Voyager: http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | To boldly get lost where no Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | one has been lost before!

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > This would just be a rules question, > but while we're waiting, let's just > make it a trivia question: > > Vamp A: (5 blood / 8 capacity) > Vamp B: (1 blood / 5 capacity) > > Vamp A attempts to bleed. > Vamp B blocks. > Vamp A plays superior Dawn Operation. > > Combat. > > Vamp A plays superior Drawing out the Beast. > > Vamp B strikes: superior Acrobatics for a dodge (+ additional strike). > Vamp A strikes: hands for 1 (aggravated). > > Vamp B uses his addit'l strike: hands for 2 (aggravated) > > Q: Vamp B wants to play Amaranth to diablerize Vamp A? > > Can he do it? What is the final outcome of the combat? > > Explain and cite rulings to support your answer. Well, my take on this would be that since B doesn't get burned until combat ends, at the time when Amaranth is played (during strike resolution? just after?), he is not going to torpor, nor is he being burned (yet). I believe there was eratta to the "not usable by a vampire going to torpor" to say that they could be used by vampires which were being burned. But, even though B's burning seems imminent, it's not happening yet. So B successfully diablerizes A, combat ends, and B is burned. Do I win? James

[ quoted text not captured ] >Do I win? Nope, but you have done well, grasshopper :-) You have overlooked a small detail, however. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] >>Do I win? [ quoted text not captured ] How about this, The wording on DOtB states that the one damage occurs after the round, does this mean that it falls outside of the aggrivated damage caused by the Dawn Op? This would make the 5 cap. vamp go to torpor, and thus make him ineligible to play the Amaranth.... >-- >L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Voyager: >http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | To boldly get lost where no >Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | one has been lost before! What'd you expect to find down here...some snappy quote? HAH!

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote in article <5c53mm$o...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>... > This would just be a rules question, > but while we're waiting, let's just > make it a trivia question: > > Vamp A: (5 blood / 8 capacity) > Vamp B: (1 blood / 5 capacity) > > Vamp A attempts to bleed. > Vamp B blocks. > Vamp A plays superior Dawn Operation. > > Combat. > > Vamp A plays superior Drawing out the Beast. > > Vamp B strikes: superior Acrobatics for a dodge (+ additional strike). > Vamp A strikes: hands for 1 (aggravated). > > Vamp B uses his addit'l strike: hands for 2 (aggravated) > > Q: Vamp B wants to play Amaranth to diablerize Vamp A? > > Can he do it? What is the final outcome of the combat? My guess is vamp B cannot play Amaranth. Amaranth states that it cannot be played by a vampire that is going to torpor if I am correct. So, even though vamp B will not be going to torpor until the end of combat, it is still going to torpor. > Explain and cite rulings to support your answer. Don't have any off the top of my head. > (Tricky timing issues involved) > > ---- > Are we having fun yet? Big fun. Steve Bucy I'd be better off undead... "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar

Steven Bucy <tb...@lainet.com> wrote in article <01bc087d$981cf4e0$a2166bc7@Tom>... > > My guess is vamp B cannot play Amaranth. Amaranth states that it cannot be > played by a vampire that is going to torpor if I am correct. So, even > though vamp B will not be going to torpor until the end of combat, it is > still going to torpor. Servey says... AAAA. Doh. Gee, since vamp B has no blood (a minor detail I overlooked) he is going to get burned (rather than go to torpor). This means he does get to play Amaranth. Amaranth would diablerize vamp A. Would the Drawing out the Beast still take effect if vamp A has been diablerized? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Hamblin wrote: > > L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > > > This would just be a rules question, > > but while we're waiting, let's just > > make it a trivia question: > > > > Vamp A: (5 blood / 8 capacity) > > Vamp B: (1 blood / 5 capacity) > > > > Vamp A attempts to bleed. > > Vamp B blocks. > > Vamp A plays superior Dawn Operation. > > > > Combat. > > > > Vamp A plays superior Drawing out the Beast. > > > > Vamp B strikes: superior Acrobatics for a dodge (+ additional strike). > > Vamp A strikes: hands for 1 (aggravated). > > > > Vamp B uses his addit'l strike: hands for 2 (aggravated) > > > > Q: Vamp B wants to play Amaranth to diablerize Vamp A? > > > > Can he do it? What is the final outcome of the combat? > > > > Explain and cite rulings to support your answer. > > Well, my take on this would be that since B doesn't get burned until > combat ends, at the time when Amaranth is played (during strike > resolution? just after?), he is not going to torpor, nor is he being > burned (yet). I believe there was eratta to the "not usable by a > vampire going to torpor" to say that they could be used by vampires > which were being burned. But, even though B's burning seems imminent, > it's not happening yet. > > So B successfully diablerizes A, combat ends, and B is burned. > > Do I win? > > James I think there is also an errata to say that a vampire that is being burnt cannot amaranth. But as the damage from drawing out the beast is _after_ the round of combat has finished, which is after presses and after the damage is resolved and the vamp A is diablorised. The important thing to remember here is the fact that the vampire has been diablorised. Which means that Vamp B will receive 5-2=3 blood from the victim (and a skill) before the press phase. The final result after combat is A is amaranthed, B goes to torpor with 2 blood and an extra skill. Now a player can call a blood hunt on B. Howzat?!?!? (How is that? :-) -- Jeffrey Endres Undergrad B. Eng (Aerospace Avionics) Queensland University of Technology "Cinnamon and sugary, with softly spoken lies, You never know just how you look through other peoples eyes." Butthole Surfers, 'Pepper'

Richard D. Zopf wrote: > > sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: > > >James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes: [ quoted text not captured ] > >Nope, but you have done well, grasshopper :-) > > >You have overlooked a small detail, however. > > How about this, The wording on DOtB states that the one damage occurs > after the round, does this mean that it falls outside of the > aggrivated damage caused by the Dawn Op? This would make the 5 cap. > vamp go to torpor, and thus make him ineligible to play the > Amaranth.... No, the Dawn Op. says any damage occuring in the combat is agg. DOtB damage occurs after the Round Ends but before Combat Ends. Give us another one LSJ! :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeffrey Endres <j.en...@student.qut.edu.au> writes: >James Hamblin wrote: >> L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> > This would just be a rules question, >> > but while we're waiting, let's just >> > make it a trivia question: >> > >> > Vamp A: (5 blood / 8 capacity) >> > Vamp B: (1 blood / 5 capacity) >> > >> > Vamp A attempts to bleed. >> > Vamp B blocks. >> > Vamp A plays superior Dawn Operation. >> > >> > Combat. >> > >> > Vamp A plays superior Drawing out the Beast. >> > >> > Vamp B strikes: superior Acrobatics for a dodge (+ additional strike). >> > Vamp A strikes: hands for 1 (aggravated). >> > >> > Vamp B uses his addit'l strike: hands for 2 (aggravated) >> > >> > Q: Vamp B wants to play Amaranth to diablerize Vamp A? >> > >> > Can he do it? What is the final outcome of the combat? >> >> Well, my take on this would be that since B doesn't get burned until >> combat ends, at the time when Amaranth is played (during strike >> resolution? just after?), he is not going to torpor, nor is he being >> burned (yet). I believe there was eratta to the "not usable by a >> vampire going to torpor" to say that they could be used by vampires >> which were being burned. But, even though B's burning seems imminent, >> it's not happening yet. >> >> So B successfully diablerizes A, combat ends, and B is burned. >> >> Do I win? >> >> James >I think there is also an errata to say that a vampire that is being >burnt cannot amaranth. But as the damage from drawing out the beast is >_after_ the round of combat has finished, which is after presses and >after the damage is resolved and the vamp A is diablorised. >The important thing to remember here is the fact that the vampire has >been diablorised. Which means that Vamp B will receive 5-2=3 blood from >the victim (and a skill) before the press phase. >The final result after combat is A is amaranthed, B goes to torpor with >2 blood and an extra skill. Now a player can call a blood hunt on B. >Howzat?!?!? (How is that? :-) Perfect! We have a winner! Honorable mention goes to James Hamblin for getting as far as he did - he got all of the tricky parts right, but forgot to give Vamp B the three blood from Vamp A for the diablerie. Other answers fell short in the following areas: 1) Damage from Drawing out the Beast is applied at the end of the round (another way of saying "after the round"). From: aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster Subject: NEW: Rulings summary for Jyhad Date: 9 Nov 1994 13:11:24 -0800 Message-ID: <39rdts$s...@perv.hal.COM> Drawing out the Beast: Does 1 damage at end of round, regardless of how the round ends. 2) The fact that Vamp B is about to be burned isn't the thing that allows him to get around the "not usuable by a vampire going to torpor" clause on Amaranth. All such clauses have errata to also exclude vampires who are burned. From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Re: House Rules List (net.personality-generated) Date: 6 Oct 1995 02:52:30 GMT Message-ID: <4525le$a...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> ===> June 22 rulings 1) Cards which say they are not usable by a vampire going into torpor, such as Pulled Fangs, cannot be played by a vampire being burned in combat, either. For example, a vampire being burned by aggravated damage cannot use Taste of Vitae. However, 3) Knowing that you will be going to Torpor (or that you will be burned) is not sufficient to activate the clause. This was answered in the case of a vampire using Undead Persistence - he will be going to Torpor at the end of combat, but isn't currently on his way to torpor. From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Re: Pulled Fangs -TOM Date: 31 May 1996 23:41:25 GMT Message-ID: <4oo035$8...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> Pulled Fangs only cares whether the vampire is going to torpor at the moment, not whether it would go into torpor later. For example, a vampire whose Force of Will is blocked can yank an opposing vampire's fangs, even though it'll be taking aggravated damage (and going into torpor) later. Similarly, a vampire under the influence of Undead Persistence can still yank the opposing vampire's fangs. [ quoted text not captured ]

<don_...@cyberion.com> writes: >> > > make it a trivia question: >> > > >> > > Vamp A: (5 blood / 8 capacity) >> > > Vamp B: (1 blood / 5 capacity) >> > > >> > > Vamp A attempts to bleed. >> > > Vamp B blocks. >> > > Vamp A plays superior Dawn Operation. >I believe I don't need to put the whole thing up >> I think there is also an errata to say that a vampire that is being >> burnt cannot amaranth. But as the damage from drawing out the beast is >> _after_ the round of combat has finished, which is after presses and >> after the damage is resolved and the vamp A is diablorised. >> >> The important thing to remember here is the fact that the vampire has >> been diablorised. Which means that Vamp B will receive 5-2=3 blood from >> the victim (and a skill) before the press phase. >> >> The final result after combat is A is amaranthed, B goes to torpor with >> 2 blood and an extra skill. Now a player can call a blood hunt on B. >> >> Howzat?!?!? (How is that? :-) > Well... As I figured is that Vamp. A is not Diablerized and Vamp. B > does get destroyed without the ability to play the Amaranth. Cause > Amaranth card would have to be played at the sametime the damage to > Vamp. B would take place. And since Vamp. B would be going to > torpor, then it cannot take effect. Yeah, that's the trickiest part of this problem; the Rules Team may actually side with you, if they were to make a ruling. But, as near as I can figure, the timing is like: I. Resolve strikes (second strike) A. Apply strike's effects (second strike) B. Resolve damage II. Send Vamp A to Torpor. A. End round due to one combant no longer being ready (Vamp A). 1. Apply damage from DotB to Vamp B Amaranth would be played in step II, before step A. At this time, vamp B is not going to torpor, so can play Amaranth. Alternatively, II could look like: II. End round due to to one combant no longer being ready (Vamp A). A. Apply end of round effects * Amaranth and damage from DotB applied simultaneously. * Resolve damage Which still works, but starts looking complicated, and would get more so as more end-of-round damage-dealing effects enter the equation (like Pulled Fangs). [ quoted text not captured ]