I, like many of you, have had a little time to think about the events
of the past week. I have stopped to think a little about the bigger
picture. This is what I posted up on the Prince conclave earlier today
(with a few context changes). A couple of people thought it would add
value here too:
There are lots of concerns flying around with this new set. Of these,
the aesthetic issue is the biggest crapper. I am not so much worried
myself, but I can, and have, already seen a large chunk of my chums
get what we call in this country "the right arse" with it.
For all our "We don't care what it looks like" protests before, it all
boils down to the fact that the look of the cards IS a big deal. They
DO give a damn about artwork. They LIKE to see certain things on the
cards. Adding a green bar changes the look and feel of the cards too
much for some people's taste (since it reminds them that it is a card
game compared to the almost portrait-like look of the old skool
cards). Again, the consultation process, or lack thereof, would have
helped.
People really don't like mixing too many colours and looks of cards.
If nothing else, it is going to be very confusing in play to start
with. I guess this will change with time. But a big change is a scary
thing (tm) especially for people who are scared that they are going to
have to spend 000's or 0000's of dollars on ALL NEW cards. This is the
biggest issue. This is the first time WW has stopped being our friend
and started being a business, since it is effectively asking people to
buy loads of new stock - much more so than in the previous sets -
whilst at the same time devaluing most of our collections.
OK, we COULD play with a mix of the old and the new. However, given
the number of people who refuse to trade up on their old Jyhad cards,
is that really likely? It all depends on how good the new set is
(Especially the new cards... which are the one thing we are really
missing info on). My feeling is that we are going to have to see
something amazing (with a capital "A") to convince most of the old
skool.
At the moment it appears likely that this set is going to split the
community in two: the "Have's" and the "Have not's". The "have"
factor, realistically, is going to be money. It has suddenly dawned on
people that this set is going to cost them a lot more than they
originally thought to get a competitive, shiny set of new cards
going.
Still, good things:
1) The artwork looks a lot better. OK, knee jerk, but I like what I
have seen so far on the whole (the old concealed weapon art sucked).
2) It will shove a rocket up the arse of eBay. Huzzah I say!
3) It means that people are going to have to rethink how they play.
Evolution is good. Survival of the fittest and all that.
4) Newbie players can have a chance of picking up shiny, decent, new
cards easier.
Bad things:
1) A possible split of the existing community.
2) It makes it even harder to bring old skool groups who have a few
cards into the fold.
3) Folk like me who keep all their decks built will suddenly have a
lot of work to do making all new decks as old "good" cards become a
lot worse. *shrugs*
To be honest, this is off the top of my head. The bad things are
potentially worse, but actually the good things could balance the bad
assuming the "newbie players" are out there.
Here's the rub: most of the folk who are most pissed off at this are
vets who promote the game a hell of a lot. If they walk, how does the
newbie player ever find out about the game, since the demo games at
his local games con have been cancelled due to the demo crew going off
vtes and discovering Heroclix instead(or whatever)?
So, guys, what are we going to do? To be honest, my knee jerk reaction
was to storm off in a strop. Then I asked myself "why?". I worked out
it was because I was a snob - I like all my cards to be the same, so I
don't really want to pay for an "all new" collection. Now I've chilled
a bit. It's a card game! So what if things change a bit!
So, if there are a few more of you like me who were a bit upset, chill
back and hear the whole announcement. I suggest we wait to see what
transpires. Then we can make an informed decision as to how we
proceed.
I still have faith that the design team to bring a classic game out of
the bag. The fact is they are going to have to go a little further now
to convince me to part with my hard earned cash is beside the point.
Regardless of what people say, I am inclined to treat this as a new
game that I can use some cards I have with, as opposed to another VTES
expansion. WW seem to be treating in in much the same respect (I
remember Steve Weick commenting that it is a new Edition of the set,
not a new expansion. That much seems to be all too evident) so I
suggest we do similar.
DH
P.S. in the unlikely event that this mail causes a flurry of angst,
I'm leaving the country to stick my head under a rock. When I come
back I want everything to be nice. OK?
> Re: a day later [and a dollar shorter]...
> On the whole, I think the Group mechanic is a fairly decent solution
> to a problem that frankly worried me, as an "old-timer". The two
> things I thought of immediately once I read the rule were:
>
> (1) I can still play any deck I play now. I have not _lost_ anything.
>
> (2) If I never bought another pack of VTES, I can still be on an even
> crypt-construction footing with somebody who has all the old vamps
> _and_ all the new ones who complement them. Without the Group Rule,
> I'd need to accumulate new vampires in order to have a highly focused
> crypt. More than that, the new player who started playing with CE
> would need to haunt ebay and trade like a madman to get all the old
> vampires. The parallel is the smaller but significant difference in
> vampire efficiency between the "Jyhad Formula" and "post-Sabbat
> Formula" vampires.
>
> So I'm really fairly satisfied with the rule.
Thanks Mark, I was about to explain these under David Hammond's post (in
fact I think I'll post this there). Since you said it even better it saves
me the post!
These are some of the ways "old-timers" might feel better about the steps
taken to make sure they are not compelled to buy the new set should they
choose not to (much as I hope they do for obvious financial reasons). If our
goal was to try to twist some arms to get veterans to repurchase their
collections, we would have approached these and other design issues
differently.
If veterans want to purchase the new cards for for ease of comprehensively
updated card text, the new look (love it or hate it), new vampires, and/or
new art, that's great. It's intended to be a "want", not a "need" to
continue to play competitively.
Steve Wieck
White Wolf
Steve Wieck wrote:
(Re: the new "Group Rule")
> These are some of the ways "old-timers" might feel better about the steps
> taken to make sure they are not compelled to buy the new set should they
> choose not to (much as I hope they do for obvious financial reasons). If our
> goal was to try to twist some arms to get veterans to repurchase their
> collections, we would have approached these and other design issues
> differently.
>
> If veterans want to purchase the new cards for for ease of comprehensively
> updated card text, the new look (love it or hate it), new vampires, and/or
> new art, that's great. It's intended to be a "want", not a "need" to
> continue to play competitively.
It appears to me that the effects of the "Group Rule" which relate to card
purchasing are essentially that if you start collecting _some_ vampires from
the new release, you need to think in terms of collecting as many as possible.
It is acknowledged by the very existence of this rule that the greater number
of vampires one can choose from, the more powerful one can tend to make decks
out of one's collection. Little can be done with a few odd vampires from a
single group, except perhaps to fill in a bit around the edges of a deck that's
primarily based on an adjacent single group. That's not much value by itself.
In short, if you get a few vampires from a given group, you want to get all the
rest or you're not getting your money's worth. This is true whether one is a
new player or an old player. Granted, it is not necessarily true of the
library cards. But we have no way of buy _only_ the library cards out of this
new set. If we invest in library cards, we must necessarily spend some of our
money on vampires, too.
I'm not bringing this up to accuse WW of some vile money-making conspiracy. I
wouldn't claim to know exactly what you're thinking when you make these decisions.
And it isn't Type 2 from Magic or any other kind of ban of old cards, either. But
it is _something_ that's kind of an irritating restriction - at least let's
acknowledge that. Arguably it may have been the best way to solve a problem you
perceive needed to be solved, though I wasn't personally that impressed with the
problem myself.
I guess my main complaint about it - apart from the need to collect the whole set
of new vampires to make use out of any of them - is the creeping complexity it adds
to the game. It's always hard to choose an exact point to draw a line in the sand
and say, "Enough is enough". But I think it's important to do, sooner or later.
Fred
dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message news:<9e10847c.0207...@posting.google.com>...
> Regardless of what people say, I am inclined to treat this as a new
> game that I can use some cards I have with, as opposed to another VTES
> expansion. WW seem to be treating in in much the same respect (I
> remember Steve Weick commenting that it is a new Edition of the set,
> not a new expansion. That much seems to be all too evident) so I
> suggest we do similar.
Personally, I think you're right, White Wolf is trying to make this a
new game, while retaining the old players. They want to have their
cake, and eat it too.
I suspect we'll see some of what happened when AD&D updated to 2nd
edition. A significant chunk of the older player base refused to
update, and the grey market (used games and modules) exploded, cutting
TSR off from their support.
The difference here is that the older VTES players are even more
likely to refuse to update than the AD&D players were. They know they
can survive without new cards, because they've done it, during the
time between Sabbat and Sabbat War. They have invested in large
collections, and if many of those cards are devalued, as rumors of
text changes seem to indicate, those players may refuse to play by
rules that devalue their investment. We also have eBay, and enough
stock that a vibrant "old school" community could go on for years just
playing pre-Camarilla VTES, without ever buying an in-stock card from
White Wolf.
Personally, I don't know what I'm going to do yet. I haven't liked
what I see so far, so I'm not making plans to buy into either the
cards or the new rules. My group already plays with pre-May 2002
rules, and spends more money on out-of-print cards than in-print ones.
It's not going to be hard to just not update, unless White Wolf gives
us some really compelling stuff we haven't seen yet. If they don't,
than as far as I'm concerned, VTES is now out of print, and White Wolf
has brought out a new game with somewhat similar cards and rules.
Not, by the way, disimilar to what their lawyers did to the Camarilla
Live Action group. They forced them into bankruptcy and then
appropriated their intellectual property, and created a new Camarilla
LARP they could control. From talking to former Cam players, very few
of them are converting to the new White Wolf controlled game.
Hmmm... Wizards of the Coast created Jyhad, now White Wolf has control
of it and has essentially ended it, and rebuilt it into something new,
while trying to convince the old players to convert. And the new set
is even called Camarilla...
Granted, I think that's all coincidence, and not indicative of some
grand meglomaniacal scheme. But it may shine a light on attitudes at
White Wolf, and how they view things.
JSpektr
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
> dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message
news:<9e10847c.0207...@posting.google.com>...
>> The difference here is that the older VTES players are even more
> likely to refuse to update than the AD&D players were. They know they
> can survive without new cards, because they've done it, during the
> time between Sabbat and Sabbat War. They have invested in large
> collections, and if many of those cards are devalued, as rumors of
> text changes seem to indicate, those players may refuse to play by
> rules that devalue their investment. We also have eBay, and enough
> stock that a vibrant "old school" community could go on for years just
> playing pre-Camarilla VTES, without ever buying an in-stock card from
> White Wolf.
>
Go for it. And please start up your own 'ols skool' newsgroup, and stop
wasting my bandwith.
"
>
>
> If veterans want to purchase the new cards for for ease of comprehensively
> updated card text, the new look (love it or hate it), new vampires, and/or
> new art, that's great. It's intended to be a "want", not a "need" to
> continue to play competitively.
>
> Steve Wieck
> White Wolf
Greetings , i´m a Prince of a city in Spain, during this week i has
asked to my group about the new set , the Camarilla.
Well, my group and the whole people that play in my city ( over 25-30
players ) seem the Cam with .... fear?.
The majority was introduced wit Sabbat Wars, and after with FN and the
Precon Decks was a NICE idea, but during this time they has spent
money and time buying cards of past editions ( like Vampire , Dark
ect...) They don´t had lots of cards, they don´t had lot of money to
buy cards, but they illusion for the new set.
But , with the changes in someone cards , the seem as his/her time and
money buying the past edition was a mistake. As a prince , my work is
emphatize to my players to play Vtes , but they don´t had the cards
like me a others few players has, then , i recommeded buy Vampire
etc... , so they can has competitive decks.
Now, they said that why i as Prince don´t has the info about the new
rules , change etc... in this NEW set, and asked to me why i don´t
tell him about it.
They seem that the princes and the whole community are "out" and
think that WW really don´t take care about the people playing Vtes,
but, as a friend say :
" in those moments is too soon to see if really this can hurt us" .I
think that ... i don´t knew that think...
I´m telling to my players that the new set is a good idea for all, but
they asked to me about the old cards that they has.
I think that this olny really hurt players like me with lots of cards
of past edittion , but not too much to players with a few of past
edttion. I´m telling with other friend that the new set is nice to
they , and they are really illusioned with the Art work, the new
desing but look with fear the new rules and
correction of old cards
At least , WW has the good idea of the Precons Decks, so , the effort
to actulize us will be less hard.
Well, i still working cause I LOVE this game and i wanna play with my
friends and everyone that think that Jyhad/Vtes now Cam is a GREAT
PLAY, but i seem as it change to.. better?? I hope that. Really i hope
that. The future will give us the
answer.
That´s all. Best Regards:
Francisco Rojas : current Vken Prince Of Cordoba (Spain).
P.S: Sorry for my bad spelling.
"
>
>
> If veterans want to purchase the new cards for for ease of comprehensively
> updated card text, the new look (love it or hate it), new vampires, and/or
> new art, that's great. It's intended to be a "want", not a "need" to
> continue to play competitively.
>
> Steve Wieck
> White Wolf
Greetings , i´m a Prince of a city in Spain, during this week i has
[ quoted text not captured ]
"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message news:<TDBV8.18743$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
> Go for it. And please start up your own 'ols skool' newsgroup, and stop
> wasting my bandwith.
Only if you go start your own "I'm incapable of actually reading what
people post" newsgroup.
I didn't say I was going to be the one that starts playing "Type 1"
VTES. I was speculating that we may see that happen. If you don't like
to think or discuss things, that's your right, but I don't see why you
need to complain about others doing it.
JSpektr
On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 03:18:45 GMT, Frederick Scott
<freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote:
>In short, if you get a few vampires from a given group, you want to get all the
>rest or you're not getting your money's worth.
Yeah this is my problem with the group rule. You cant just buy a few
bosters and slot some of the new vamps in with your old cam vamps.
You HAVE to buy the set because they largely only work as a set.
That's a pretty shitty thing to do to the casual collector imo.
T
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
> "jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:<TDBV8.18743$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
>
> > Go for it. And please start up your own 'ols skool' newsgroup, and stop
> > wasting my bandwith.
>
> Only if you go start your own "I'm incapable of actually reading what
> people post" newsgroup.
>
> I didn't say I was going to be the one that starts playing "Type 1"
> VTES. I was speculating that we may see that happen.
My remark wasn't aimed at you alone. Don't give yourself so much credit :-)
>If you don't like
> to think or discuss things, that's your right, but I don't see why you
> need to complain about others doing it.
>
Complaining is one thing. Doing nothing but bitching and whining about
unaffirmed changes is something else entirely...
"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message news:<oG1W8.23663$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
> "jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
> > "jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:<TDBV8.18743$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
> >
> > > Go for it. And please start up your own 'ols skool' newsgroup, and stop
> > > wasting my bandwith.
> >
> > Only if you go start your own "I'm incapable of actually reading what
> > people post" newsgroup.
> >
> > I didn't say I was going to be the one that starts playing "Type 1"
> > VTES. I was speculating that we may see that happen.
>
> My remark wasn't aimed at you alone. Don't give yourself so much credit :-)
Try learning English if you're going to use it to post messages. When
you say "start up YOUR own" in reply to a message by me, you are
referring to me.
>
> >If you don't like
> > to think or discuss things, that's your right, but I don't see why you
> > need to complain about others doing it.
> >
> Complaining is one thing. Doing nothing but bitching and whining about
> unaffirmed changes is something else entirely...
Speculation and discussion are not doing nothing but bitching and
whining. Doing nothing but bitching and whining about other people
having a discussion on the other hand...
BTW, in reference to an earlier part of this thread, I actually ran
into a 1st edition AD&D player today. Just like I mentioned earlier,
his group had refused to update to 2nd ed (and now 3rd ed), and is
still happily playing 1st edition and buying old used 1st edition
materials. I also spoke to some guys that still play original format
Magic, but a lot of people in St. Louis bought into the Alpha set, so
that's not so unusual here. The point is, they still play with old
cards and WotC no longer makes money off them.
JSpektr
<talonz yammering something about:>
> Yeah this is my problem with the group rule. You cant just buy a few
> bosters and slot some of the new vamps in with your old cam vamps.
> You HAVE to buy the set because they largely only work as a set.
>
> That's a pretty shitty thing to do to the casual collector imo.
Casual: there's no reason someone who plays the
game for a whim can't use whatever cards he/she desires.
Use Rowan Ring. Use Return to Innocence. Use tier 1 vamps
with tier 3 vamps. Play casual, and enjoy. Be prepared to
switch your crypt up if you go to a tournament, though.
A starter will acquire all the vamps you need to play
Tier 2+3, if that post about the spoilers is accurate. DS, AH,
and signature vamps are all tier-friendly. Don't want to play
with the tier 3 vamps? Lots of options in the tier 1+2 group.
--heslin
jsp...@sprynet.com writes:
>I suspect we'll see some of what happened when AD&D updated to 2nd
>edition. A significant chunk of the older player base refused to
>update, and the grey market (used games and modules) exploded, cutting
>TSR off from their support.
Nobody's cut off! You'll be able to buy big fat zero of the Cam set and still
sit down at a table with both uber-collectors and new players and have a fair
game. The crypt restrictions reduce the uber-collector's advantage and
the newbie's disadvantages (you aren't the kind of person who wants
unfair advantage, are you?) WW could hardly be fairer to old players, giving
them the choice to buy or not buy the new set.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message news:<196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> "jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message news:<oG1W8.23663$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
> > "jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> > news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
> > > "jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:<TDBV8.18743$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
> > >
> > > > Go for it. And please start up your own 'ols skool' newsgroup, and stop
> > > > wasting my bandwith.
> > >
> > > Only if you go start your own "I'm incapable of actually reading what
> > > people post" newsgroup.
> > >
> > > I didn't say I was going to be the one that starts playing "Type 1"
> > > VTES. I was speculating that we may see that happen.
> >
> > My remark wasn't aimed at you alone. Don't give yourself so much credit :-)
>
> Try learning English if you're going to use it to post messages. When
> you say "start up YOUR own" in reply to a message by me, you are
> referring to me.
>
English is indeed not my native language. Can you post in Dutch? No?
then STFU.
IIRC, 'your own' can also be used when referring to a group. If not,
blame my English teacher(s).
>
> >
> > >If you don't like
> > > to think or discuss things, that's your right, but I don't see why you
> > > need to complain about others doing it.
> > >
> > Complaining is one thing. Doing nothing but bitching and whining about
> > unaffirmed changes is something else entirely...
>
> Speculation and discussion are not doing nothing but bitching and
> whining. Doing nothing but bitching and whining about other people
> having a discussion on the other hand...
What do you mean? Is your right to bitch bigger than mine?
>
> BTW, in reference to an earlier part of this thread, I actually ran
> into a 1st edition AD&D player today. Just like I mentioned earlier,
> his group had refused to update to 2nd ed (and now 3rd ed), and is
> still happily playing 1st edition and buying old used 1st edition
> materials. I also spoke to some guys that still play original format
> Magic, but a lot of people in St. Louis bought into the Alpha set, so
> that's not so unusual here. The point is, they still play with old
> cards and WotC no longer makes money off them.
yep. And some people, use horses and refuse to use post 17th century
technology.
J
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) wrote in message
> Hmmm... Wizards of the Coast created Jyhad, now White Wolf has control
> of it and has essentially ended it, and rebuilt it into something new,
> while trying to convince the old players to convert. And the new set
> is even called Camarilla...
>
Just for the record.
Wizards DID NOT create Jyhad. Check out the credits. You may be
surprised.
Steve Wieck and other notables had a hand in creation and they held
the license for it.
Raille
[ quoted text not captured ]
Hey Dave,
Doesn't each Jyhad/VTES starter have printed "a Richard Garfield game"
or somesuch?
BernieTime
Lansing, Michigan
joen...@hotmail.com (Jeroen) wrote in message news:<5f0d2397.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> yep. And some people, use horses and refuse to use post 17th century
> technology.
>
...Aright. That's it! You keep the Amish out of this, buddy!!!
They're good people ;-)
(joking)
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
jspektr <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote:
: "jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message news:<TDBV8.18743$ix....@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>...
:> Go for it. And please start up your own 'ols skool' newsgroup, and stop
:> wasting my bandwith.
: I didn't say I was going to be the one that starts playing "Type 1": VTES. I was speculating that we may see that happen. If you don't like
: to think or discuss things, that's your right, but I don't see why you
: need to complain about others doing it.
Insults aside, I think people are making a bit too big a number about your
"Type 1". What you/they call "Type 1" here is essentially using older,
Jyhad/V:tES crypt cards and not new CE crypt cards because you choose to
do so.
I should think the "we are different because of our Opinion" attitude
suffers a bit from the fact that coming to a tournament with your "Type
1" deck is met with a happy smile and a comment "sure, come in".
Type 1 was about denying old cards from tournaments and with the game
company concentrating on supporting Type 2, old gamers eventually were
too pissed off to continue.
No matter whether WW thinks about dollars here or not, at least the
model they have chosen here supports old sets both in tournament
and fun play - or at least doesn't restrict playing in such a
fashion that would outdate old decks, for instance. All it does in
practice is setting a window for you to choose. with M:tG types the
company chose the window for you.
Overall, I find CE grouping a moderately fair model.
//T
"atomweaver" <guenh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4c6f3f3e.0207...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I *knew* the Amish were evil!
Oh, you were joking about being *upset* about the Amish thing. :)
And back (sort of) on topic, I'm always impressed that so many people that do
not speak English as their native language post on the newsgroup. I could
(barely) follow a newsgroup with a primary posting base of Spanish, but I would
be very reticent to reply.
Xian
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message
news:agct2n$kfve9$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de...
> And back (sort of) on topic, I'm always impressed that so many people that
do
> not speak English as their native language post on the newsgroup. I could
> (barely) follow a newsgroup with a primary posting base of Spanish, but I
would
> be very reticent to reply.
that's why people from all over the world (brits apart) are more literate
that the basic american guy : we have to speak in at least 2 languages to
make our way on this planet =D
hey, isn't that a perfect troll ? =D
"Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f0d2397.02070...@posting.google.com...
> English is indeed not my native language. Can you post in Dutch? No?
> then STFU.
Jeroen is back ! he's big ! and he's angryyyy RROOAAAAR =D
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.02070...@posting.google.com...
> BTW, in reference to an earlier part of this thread, I actually ran> into a 1st edition AD&D player today. Just like I mentioned earlier,
> his group had refused to update to 2nd ed (and now 3rd ed), and is
> still happily playing 1st edition and buying old used 1st edition
> materials.
that's great ! let them play the game they want ! they also save money in
the process =D
but i would start to mind if they spend all their time on usenet blaming the
new rules day after day instead of havine a good time with the old AD&D
rules... If you figure what i mean...
reyda
curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message news:<20020708005400...@mb-ca.aol.com>...
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Actually you will find that for those people with more cards, this new
set is more liberating.
Errol, AKA Immortalgrapple cards, pointed out to me, that those in our
group with less cards and money will be more restricted because it
will be harder for them to mix and match, whereas, he and I with a
mass of cards from all sets, will be perfectly fine, as the
limitations arent really much of a challenge to someone with 4 of each
bleeding (pun intended) Vamp in the set.
It can and will do a disadvantage to those people we play with who
cannot afford to buy by the box, as their new Vamps will only be
usable in specific locations, especially since, in an effort to
support our groups, a large! mass of Base Set cards were given to the
less fortunate members of our groups to keep them interested, now,
they wont be able to mix all the cards they have with any they decide
to buy.
That doesn't sound like it worked out to me.
-Chris.
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d2a118b$0$28530$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
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You like using the word 'big', isn't it? :-P
J
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d2a1154$0$9996$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Nah, that's just true. ;)
Tobias
Deventer
"Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f0d2397.0207...@posting.google.com...
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because it's part of an old expression : i can't remember in which movie
trailer i heard it first =)
american people tend to love the world 'big' =)
i for myself like the following words : grace, widow, enamel, thingumajig,
hijack ( and everything with jack inside) or a lot of french words i cannot
list here. But no, big sounds dull =)
Sprekt U Frans ? ;)
>
> It can and will do a disadvantage to those people we play with who
> cannot afford to buy by the box, as their new Vamps will only be
> usable in specific locations, especially since, in an effort to
> support our groups, a large! mass of Base Set cards were given to the
> less fortunate members of our groups to keep them interested, now,
> they wont be able to mix all the cards they have with any they decide
> to buy.
>
> That doesn't sound like it worked out to me.
>
> -Chris.
Chris,
Your local playgroup can decide to ignore the grouping limitation if it
works better for your local players and their card collections.
For tournament play where we need one set of rules that keeps the game
balanced for all attendees, the ruling will be in effect.
Steve
White Wolf
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:43:30 -0400, "Steve Wieck"
<steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>Chris,
>
>Your local playgroup can decide to ignore the grouping limitation if it
>works better for your local players and their card collections.
>For tournament play where we need one set of rules that keeps the game
>balanced for all attendees, the ruling will be in effect.
>
>Steve
>White Wolf
>
>
Now that's why I wondered why the grouping rule wasn't a tourney
rule...instead of trying to ram it down the throats of all players and
all games?
T
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d2ab30a$0$6883$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Quelle question! Moi je suis de la Belgique, un petit pays dans lequel on
parle 3 langues. Je parle le néerlandais, le français, l' Anglais et (un
petit peu) d'Allemand.
don't mind the spelling :-)
Jeroen
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
> Now that's why I wondered why the grouping rule wasn't a tourney
> rule...instead of trying to ram it down the throats of all players and
> all games?
The game should be balanced for normal play as well as tournament-level
play. That's why the contesting/unique rule was "rammed down the player's
throats for all games".
You are free to play with no contesting or no grouping as part of your
house rules, of course.
Adding such house rules, however, is best done after careful analysis
(since the cards were designed to be played with the official rules).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
In message <3d2ab30a$0$6883$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>, reyda
<true_...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> You like using the word 'big', isn't it? :-P>
>because it's part of an old expression : i can't remember in which movie
>trailer i heard it first =)
"Big"?
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0094737
--
James Coupe
PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
13D7E668C3695D623D5D
LSJ wrote:
>
> Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
> > Now that's why I wondered why the grouping rule wasn't a tourney
> > rule...instead of trying to ram it down the throats of all players and
> > all games?
>
> The game should be balanced for normal play as well as tournament-level
> play. That's why the contesting/unique rule was "rammed down the player's
> throats for all games".
Scott knows this very well. In the past, he was reminded of it often
enough whenever the subject of the NRA rule came up. :)
Seriously, if it's a worthwhile rule central to the actual play of the game,
it belongs in the game rules. Special "tournament-only" rules govern what's
different about a tournament than non-tournament play: the setting, the need
for time limits, adjudicating disputes, the it-picky procedural stuff you'd
never worry about in the home version of the game...
Fred
"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen.rom...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:ZcGW8.299$QS3...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
> > Sprekt U Frans ? ;)
> >
> Quelle question! Moi je suis de la Belgique, un petit pays dans lequel on
> parle 3 langues. Je parle le néerlandais, le français, l' Anglais et (un
> petit peu) d'Allemand.
>
> don't mind the spelling :-)
>
> Jeroen
quelle perfection =)
vive la Belgique et les Belges !! =D
>Quelle question! Moi je suis de la Belgique, un petit pays dans lequel on
>parle 3 langues. Je parle le néerlandais, le français, l' Anglais et (un
>petit peu) d'Allemand.
Pas le flamand?
"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2tDW8.71564$wj4.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I know....odds are we will. But what I was getting at, is that even
for tourney situations, this will hurt the less financially endowed
members of our area.
Mind you, while I was making a point, my big gripe with the Cam Ed is
not the grouping rule....I was merely pointing out that this does not
in fact do those players with less cards all that much good.
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d2a1154$0$9996$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
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Hey, hang on....
Je voudrais un glace, s'il vous plait. Or something.
I can keep up with the rest of the world as good as the next guy* :)
Marty - proud to be British
*The above is a lie. Us Brits don't feel we need to learn another
language as everybody else makes an attempt to speak ours. You can't
blame us, we're just lazy.
P.S. Camarilla edition sucks. Period. And I'll bitch and whine as
much as I have to. So shove that and cram this :)
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d2ab30a$0$6883$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> "Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5f0d2397.0207...@posting.google.com...
> > "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<3d2a118b$0$28530$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > > "Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5f0d2397.02070...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > > English is indeed not my native language. Can you post in Dutch? No?
> > > > then STFU.
> > >
> > > Jeroen is back ! he's big ! and he's angryyyy RROOAAAAR =D
> >
> > You like using the word 'big', isn't it? :-P
>
> because it's part of an old expression : i can't remember in which movie
> trailer i heard it first =)
> american people tend to love the world 'big' =)
> i for myself like the following words : grace, widow, enamel, thingumajig,
> hijack ( and everything with jack inside) or a lot of french words i cannot
> list here. But no, big sounds dull =)
> Sprekt U Frans ? ;)
Me, I like the words moist, schadenfraude & tits. It's great to be
British (as previously stated...) :)
Marty
P.S. Think we all know with Americans like the word 'big' - just
everyones too afraid to say... :)
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:14:20 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:>> Now that's why I wondered why the grouping rule wasn't a tourney
>> rule...instead of trying to ram it down the throats of all players and
>> all games?>
>The game should be balanced for normal play as well as tournament-level
>play. That's why the contesting/unique rule was "rammed down the player's
>throats for all games".
>
>You are free to play with no contesting or no grouping as part of your
>house rules, of course.
>
>Adding such house rules, however, is best done after careful analysis
>(since the cards were designed to be played with the official rules).
>
We tend to play with all tourney rules in effect anyways, so this rule
would've likely found its way into rgular play as a tourney rule in
time, once we found it warranted.
Tourney is one thing, just for fun games are another. I think this
rule could have better served the community by being a tourney rule.
T
"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message
news:20020709212423...@mb-fx.aol.com...
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Officièllement, le flamand n'est pas un langue. Le flamand, c'est le
néerlandais.
marcus_b...@hotmail.com writes:
>Errol, AKA Immortalgrapple cards, pointed out to me, that those in our
>group with less cards and money will be more restricted because it
>will be harder for them to mix and match, whereas, he and I with a
>mass of cards from all sets, will be perfectly fine, as the
>limitations arent really much of a challenge to someone with 4 of each
>bleeding (pun intended) Vamp in the set.
Anybody who buys a box of CE and a starter will have a complete
set of vampires for a clan. Of course it's easier for them if CE
and Jyhad vampires can't be mixed, as otherwise they need a box
of Jyhad too.
>It can and will do a disadvantage to those people we play with who
>cannot afford to buy by the box,
If you can't buy by the box, you're at a disadvantage with expansions.
This isn't new, and has been true for all previous expansions. The
starter decks are a far preferable technique if you have limited
resources. But no matter how you slice it, crypt limitations help
those on limited budgets. The crypt limitations mean that suitcase
players get minimum crypt benefits from CE, so the goal the
limited players chase doesn't move. If limited players got no
benefit whatsoever from CE, then we'd just be status quo. Any
benefit to them (and there will be some) is just gravy.
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