TWD Geneva (Switzerland)

Hi all On Sunday september the 2nd there was a tournament in geneva in Switzerland. Like Rueben wasn't here, Olivier won. He played another Imbued deck with many Memories of Mortality. It was a pleasure for me to judge this event, and to see 5 new players. This tournament was a Qualifier to the French National Championship (Paris, september 29th-30th). You can find more informations at www.vekn.fr More than 100 players are expected to come. Well now for TheLasombra, The hall of Fame and http://vtes-hunter-net.tripod.com/FAQ.htm QCF Genève. (national qualifier for French Championship) Genève (Stwitzerland) City of Gold and Chocolate. September 2nd. 17 players Winner : Olivier Perrez. Deck Name : imbued_dreams3 Author : Miriadel aka Olivier Perrez. Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 5 average: 4.58 ------------------------------------------------------------ 4x Travis "Traveler72 5 mar def Imbued:4 3x Jennie "Cassie247" 5 inn jud vis Imbued:4 3x John "Cop90" O'Mal 4 jud ven Imbued:4 1x Jack "Hannibal137" 4 def jud Imbued:4 1x Paul "Sixofswords2 4 def vis Imbued:4 Library [70 cards] ------------------------------------------------------------ Action [1] 1x Aranthebes, The Immortal Ally [4] 1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter) 1x Gregory Winter 1x Ossian 1x Wendell Delburton (Hunter) Combat [2] 3x Pulled Fangs Conviction [15] 3x React with Conviction 5x Second Sight 6x Strike with Conviction Equipment [5] 1x Crusader Sword, The 1x Ivory Bow 3x Laptop Computer Event [5] 1x Anthelios, The Red Star 2x Edge Explosion 3x Unmasking, The Master [24] 1x Brothers Grimm 2x Church of Vindicated Faith, The 3x Direct Intervention 1x Fortschritt Library 6x Memories of Mortality 1x Millicent Smith, Puritan Vampire Hunter 2x Parthenon, The 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 2x Smiling Jack, The Anarch 1x Society of Leopold 1x Tension in the Ranks 2x Vampiric Disease 1x Vox Domini Power [11] 3x Champion 2x Discern 1x Rejuvenate 4x Vigilance Reaction [3] 3x Determine Olivier was first before the Final with 1GW5 The Final Florian /Party of Roses Olivier / Imbued Patrick / Lasombra Presence Pascal / Nosferatu Prince + Beast Marc/ Tzimisce Wall During the final, he played Memories of Mortality on Marc' vampire with AUS, and was unblocable all the game. The final was played in 1h54. Olivier won 4 vp (and a Game Win of course) and Marc 1 vp. 1st Olivier 2nd Marc 3rd Florian 4th Patrick 5th Marc Congratulations to Olivier and special congratulations to Laurent, Mourad, Vincent, Lionel and Michaël who played their first tournament, welcome to the Swiss Academy. See all in Paris.

On Sep 4, 11:48 am, xpmaster <kyas...@hotmail.com> wrote: > He played another Imbued deck with many Memories of Mortality. > Well well. I think that there are a few cards in NoR that are wrong. My 2 eurocents: Jennie and Travis should cost 6 pool (a'la Caitlin) Untapping with Vigilance should cost 1 Conviction, or maybe even burn after use (like Donate) As for MoM, I think it has been thoroughly discussed already. -Antero

> Winner : Olivier Perrez. > Library [70 cards] What happened to Olivier, to play this sub-optimal deck ? Someone slipped 10 more cards in his deck while he wasn't looking ? Or he wanted to try a tower-deck to see how we felt in the beginning when we play CL and 200 cards ? B-) ------- Orpheus, the nastyman

"antero" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote in message news:1188896779.4...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Mate, you forget the most broken card out there. You'll notice that all Oliver's winning Imbued decks include 3 or 4 Champions. And that's the key, right there ! You try a D action, the mortals try to block, and just it case your actions pass he taps the Champion and you fail anyway !! That's the worst card in the game, even more "shut up and fail" than DI or whatever else. -------- Orpheus, never liked Champions (except the super-hero group with Black Widow...)

On Sep 4, 1:51 pm, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote: > "antero" <nomu...@jippii.fi> wrote in message [ quoted text not captured ] You are right about Champion Serge, it is a very powerfull card. Even Stanislava didn't manage to oust Olivier. That's life. You know when to play Direct Intervention.

xpmaster schrieb: > He played another Imbued deck with many Memories of Mortality. > 4x Travis "Traveler72 5 mar def Imbued:4 > 3x Jennie "Cassie247" 5 inn jud vis Imbued:4 > 2x Edge Explosion > 3x Unmasking, The > 6x Memories of Mortality > 3x Champion > 4x Vigilance > 3x Determine > Olivier was first before the Final with 1GW5 > During the final, he played Memories of Mortality on Marc' vampire > with AUS, and was unblocable all the game. > The final was played in 1h54. > Olivier won 4 vp (and a Game Win of course) and Marc 1 vp. Just (another) collection of evidence for the "imbued case". I think Travis is ok (not much other poolgain available), Jennie is too cheap, MoM is too strong and Champion and Determine are *way* too strong. -- Johannes Walch

>> >> He played another Imbued deck with many Memories of Mortality. >> >> > Well well. I think that there are a few cards in NoR that are wrong. >> Mate, you forget the most broken card out there. You'll notice that all >> Oliver's winning Imbued decks include 3 or 4 Champions. And that's the >> key, > You are right about Champion Serge, it is a very powerfull card. Even > Stanislava didn't manage to oust Olivier. > That's life. You know when to play Direct Intervention. Sure. But two wrongs don't make a right : some cards are bad for the game (Champions joins PTO on top of my list), and they're not less bad because DI exists ; as a matter of fact, DI is wrong too in my book. But this is an old discussion, minds are made about this. Anyway, allies not being afraid of Stanislava just show how wrong this card is. You'd think having access to intercept and bounce would be enough, but no, they had to get an action failer too ! What can be done now ? Ban Champion, errate it, burn all the existing copies ? Or prepare to see every VTES deck include an Imbued with 3 Champions ? --------- Orpheus

>> Olivier won 4 vp (and a Game Win of course) and Marc 1 vp. > > Just (another) collection of evidence for the "imbued case". I think > Travis is ok (not much other poolgain available), Jennie is too cheap, MoM > is too strong and Champion and Determine are *way* too strong. So we agree, of course. But what do you think can be done ? The errata on Memories is the most evident part, and might even happen with LoTN. But what else ? There are already undercosted vampires so I don't think anything particular should / could be done with Jennie. Determine is too strong in the way that DI is too strong, or bounce is ; of course it does both, and that's monstruous (a shame for monster hunters !) but I don't think it's game-breaking, as the deflect part is just a "My Enemy's Enemy" type effect. I think the problem comes from being able to play Determine AND Champion. So let's do something about Champion and Memories. The Imbued will still be playable, troublesome because of all the cards targetting vampires only, but not broken anymore. Errata on Champion anyone ? Or just a ban ? ----- Orpheus

Orpheus schrieb: >>>>> He played another Imbued deck with many Memories of Mortality. >>>> Well well. I think that there are a few cards in NoR that are wrong. >>> Mate, you forget the most broken card out there. You'll notice that all >>> Oliver's winning Imbued decks include 3 or 4 Champions. And that's the >>> key, > >> You are right about Champion Serge, it is a very powerfull card. Even >> Stanislava didn't manage to oust Olivier. >> That's life. You know when to play Direct Intervention. > > Sure. But two wrongs don't make a right : some cards are bad for the game > (Champions joins PTO on top of my list), and they're not less bad because DI > exists ; as a matter of fact, DI is wrong too in my book. But this is an old > discussion, minds are made about this. Absolutetly right. A minion card or master card is not less broken just because it can be canceled by D.I / Sudden. Should everybody play with 20 D.I now? > Anyway, allies not being afraid of Stanislava just show how wrong this card > is. You'd think having access to intercept and bounce would be enough, but > no, they had to get an action failer too ! The problem is that Imbued decks are usually some kind of intercept deck with inherent S&B through Strike w/ Conviction and Second Sight and MoM to break walls. On top of the static intercept they have, they also get Determine which is very usefull because it work against votes *and* bleed and on top of that they get Champion should everything else fail. So while wearing out the opponents stealth through the static intercept they have a second and third "fuse" to fire when the intercept fails, making them almost impossible to oust. Should the opponent have no stealth (e.g Bruise&Bleed) they can just resort to Determine and Champion to hold him off well enough (usually). Once they are built up they can also afford the hospital now and then, esp. when Jennie is out or just hit the fighty deck with a few MoM. > What can be done now ? Ban Champion, errate it, burn all the existing copies > ? Or prepare to see every VTES deck include an Imbued with 3 Champions ? I don´t think any drastic steps are necessary, imho the complete package makes the Imbued good: ousting power (SwC, Darby Dance), intercept, bounce and action fail plus invulnerability in combat and unblockability through MoM. Every one of those key aspects can be achieved with a small number of cards, making it possible to include all of them in the deck (sucessfully). If the rules team breaks one of those aspects the Imbued will be toned down quite a bit, e.g when MoM is gone they are a lot less scary since you can at least hit them. -- Johannes Walch

>> What can be done now ? Ban Champion, errate it, burn all the existing >> copies ? Or prepare to see every VTES deck include an Imbued with 3 >> Champions ? > > I don´t think any drastic steps are necessary, imho the complete package > makes the Imbued good: ousting power (SwC, Darby Dance), intercept, bounce > and action fail plus invulnerability in combat and unblockability through > MoM. Every one of those key aspects can be achieved with a small number of > cards, making it possible to include all of them in the deck > (sucessfully). If the rules team breaks one of those aspects the Imbued > will be toned down quite a bit, e.g when MoM is gone they are a lot less > scary since you can at least hit them. Allow me to disagree. There has been several threads here and there concerning the fighting resilience of the Imbued. They can get out of hospital easier than vampires can get out of torpor, that make the fighters very awkward when it comes to them, Memories or no Memories. From what you report I really think that the problem lies with Champion, being the drop that makes the cup spill. ------- Orpheus

[ quoted text not captured ] How about for every action that you cancel with Champion - the player who has his action cancelled is allowed to bollock punt the imbued player? This fix works on many levels - the dedicated imbued players get to keep their toys as are - and those who are messed with Champion wise get to vent. This need not stop with Champion either, the astute among you will have noticed. We can 'fix' lots fo cards with this rule: DI PTO Memories Anthony

> "How about for every action that you cancel with Champion - the player > who has his action cancelled is allowed to bollock punt the imbued > player? Can we also bollock punt the guy proposing that rule in the process, you bag of shitty bollocks ? ;-) > This fix works on many levels - the dedicated imbued players get to > keep their toys as are - and those who are messed with Champion wise > get to vent. Vent ? What's that smell now ? > This need not stop with Champion either, the astute among you will > have noticed. We can 'fix' lots fo cards with this rule: > DI > PTO > Memories > Anthony Anthony definitely needs some fixing !! ------ Orpheus, Fixer.

On 4 Sep, 15:15, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote: > > "How about for every action that you cancel with Champion - the player > > who has his action cancelled is allowed to bollock punt the imbued > > player? > > Can we also bollock punt the guy proposing that rule in the process, you bag > of shitty bollocks ? ;-) So, shall I put you down as a supporter of the fix, or not? I wish you wouldn't sit on the fence all the time :O) Ant

Just in case... I never ever loose against an Imbued deck. The reason? 1/ I know exactly how they work, I know exactly when they are in trouble. 2/ I know how to transmit this knoledge to the rest of the table. I Usually win with imbued becase people let me play alone. This last tournement one player said I gone try to do somthing. The minute after another player rush him. Another one try his best and when I could not block him his prey try to killed him. It's not a question of card's and of deck but of how to behave with them. It is exactly like a legacy of pander. If you don't know how to play against you will loose. But it is true Imbued are more difficult to understand.

On 4 Sep, 15:29, Olivier_PEREZ <olivier.eni...@gmail.com> wrote: > It is exactly like a legacy of pander. If you don't know how to play > against you will loose. Oh, cool - if its just like Legacy of Pander it will soon be nerfed into a more reasonable format. Legacy of Pander still wins events, but isnt totally broken. AWESOME *bollock punts Serge*

For me there is another deck that is completly broken... and it's not imbued... Just in case how do you do to be a play tester?

"Anthony Coleman" <Bunti...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188915651....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On 4 Sep, 15:15, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote: >> > "How about for every action that you cancel with Champion - the player >> > who has his action cancelled is allowed to bollock punt the imbued >> > player? >> >> Can we also bollock punt the guy proposing that rule in the process, you >> bag >> of shitty bollocks ? ;-) > > So, shall I put you down as a supporter of the fix, or not? Nothing like a good fix. > I wish you wouldn't sit on the fence all the time :O) You should know the pleasures of sitting on a big, sharp fence... As for that, you know I'm not one to compromise. But I'd be curious to know your real position on all that : do you give a fig or not ? > The Irredeemable Ant-Man

[ quoted text not captured ] If a majority of player come back to inteligent deck (vote instead of fight and intercepte) the imbued archetype will soon vanish... 2 kine crosse table and the imbued will beg for mercy...

"Olivier_PEREZ" <olivier...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188917418....@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > For me there is another deck that is completly broken... and it's not > imbued... Stop making mysteries, Olivier, spill it out ! > Just in case how do you do to be a play tester? You just don't suck well enough for that, sorry.

Olivier_PEREZ schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] When it takes *cross-table* action to beat a deck that愀 really the definition of "broken". -- Johannes Walch

>> > It is exactly like a legacy of pander. If you don't know how to play >> > against you will loose. Except that it totally screws some decktypes, and that it's much more complex to understand what's on the table with them. >> Oh, cool - if its just like Legacy of Pander it will soon be nerfed >> into a more reasonable format. >> >> Legacy of Pander still wins events, but isnt totally broken. >> >> AWESOME >> >> *bollock punts Serge* I don't see where you're getting at here... Shouldn't you be bollock-punting Olivier ? > If a majority of player come back to inteligent deck (vote instead of > fight and intercepte) Nice Olivier, saying that 3/4 of the game is stupid and only vote is intelligent. BTW, you play Imbued and Shamblings quite often, are they stupid decks ? So please stop making silly categories. Imbued dies to crosstable votes, sure, but that is seldom a good solution to oust someone crosstable. If you need to do that, then there is a problem with the archetype. Also, some intercept + fight decks (like the Tremere) can hurt the Imbued a lot, so they're not what I'd call "stupid" right now. > the imbued archetype will soon vanish... I don't think it will. > 2 kine crosse table and the imbued will beg for mercy... And one VP will vanish. No archetype should be ousted only with crosstable help. By the way, we all take notice that we must NEVER let you install and play it quiet, when all players understand that the Swiss Archetype will soon vanish. B-) (is that bollock-punting, Ant-Man ?)

Olivier_PEREZ schrieb: > For me there is another deck that is completly broken... and it's not > imbued... > > > Just in case how do you do to be a play tester? > LSJ selects certain playgroups as playtesters. The criterias for being selected are not published, but as far as I know the group has to exist for a longer time and be some kind of "cornerstone" in the V:TES world, e.g the Bosten group is a well known playtest group. They receive (to be testetd) card text in advance and make their own cards to test it among themselves. Of course every participant needs to sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure-Agreement) with White Wolf. I am not sure if new/more playtesters are accepted at the moment, LSJ has to answer that. Also be prepared to spend a lot of time testing cards w/o having too much influence on the actual design process. As far as I have heard your feedback is collected but only rarely or never commented on so adjust your expectations accordingly. You will not be LSJ´s mini-me ;-) -- Johannes Walch

On 4 Sep, 15:56, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote: > As for that, you know I'm not one to compromise. But I'd be curious to know > your real position on all that : do you give a fig or not ? I think imbued are a problem, yes. I do not like the way that they step outside of the basic mechanics of the game and, just placing stuff on them, not an action to leave 'torpor' all departures from the basics of the game: Action followed by reactions/action modifiers + master cards thrown in. I dont like the way they do not interact in any way with a large number of cards in the game, mostly combat cards. Those points for me are the large, unfixable problems with the imbued. Problems with specific cards is easy to deal with - many of the suggested changes make sense to me, are proportionat and unlikley to make them totally unplayable. Ant

On 4 sep, 17:09, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote: > You will not be > LSJ´s mini-me ;-) > 8-)))))))) Oh wow. Imagine a bald midget that only says "correct" *. Won't be able to get that image out of my head for at least 2 days.. -Teeka * or perhaps an occasional "moot", right before he punches you in the nuts.

> Nice Olivier, saying that 3/4 of the game is stupid and only vote is > intelligent. BTW, you play Imbued and Shamblings quite often, are they > stupid decks ? So please stop making silly categories. It was a joke. I dont like fight deck because I like to play vote and currently there is far to much fight for voters... But I hope it will change. By the way I'm having fun playing fight but I'm terrible with it I'm unable to do VP with fight deck... It's not my type of play. But one of my favorite deck is the famus concil of doom... Difficult to play it in the current metagame.

>On 4 syys, 11:48, xpmaster <kyas...@hotmail.com> wrote: > During the final, he played Memories of Mortality on Marc' vampire > with AUS, and was unblocable all the game. He played just one MoM and was unblockable whole game? Why there weren't any cross-table rescue deals to save the vampire with AUS? - Guzmo

[ quoted text not captured ] Olivier played MoM on "each" Marc' vampire with AUS. Marc was 2nd before the final. The only way to finish 1st was to kill his prey Florian (and expect Olivier doesn't kill his prey) And Florian was the predator of Olivier. No one was in position to help Marc to recue from torpor before Gregory Winter (controlled by Olivier )

> Olivier played MoM on "each" Marc' vampire with AUS. > > Marc was 2nd before the final. The only way to finish 1st was to kill > his prey Florian (and expect Olivier doesn't kill his prey) > And Florian was the predator of Olivier. > > No one was in position to help Marc to recue from torpor before > Gregory Winter (controlled by Olivier ) And that is the only really problem with Imbued. Their synergy with MoM. Everyone agrees, it is now broken. Nerf MoM, or modify it and it changes completely. Imbued drop back to the field like all other decks. Champion is a powerful card, Jennie and Travis are powerful. But if they can be smacked upside the head, then who cares? Didn't read all of the MoM thread (far too long), but I would like to see it modified to something like the following. Memories of Mortality Master, 1 pool Put this card on a ready vampire with a capacity less than 8. This vampire has -1 intercept and -1 strength against mortal allies and cannot use weapons in combat against mortal allies. This vampire may burn 3 blood in it's controllers untap phase to burn this card. --> J grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com

[ quoted text not captured ] You may also have noticed that many of these Imbued decks (Olivier's definitely) pack Parthenon and Anthelios. If you burn the MoM, then on the Imbued's next turn, they can spend two MPAs to swap a master card in hand for the MoM, and the next to put it on you again. Fun stuff huh? This makes Unique not enough... it needs to be nerfed (would probably require too much card text fiddling around), or preferably banned (harsh on War Ghoul / Hordes decks, but they are strong anyway, so meh) or changed to this: Only one Memories of Mortality can be played per game. Makes it kinda like a Blind Spot then. Yeah it would make it pretty weak.......... tough. Seriously, Imbued and Memories should never have existed in the same game at the same time. Allies were never meant to be main source of minions for a deck. If they were, Memories would never have been printed as it was.

On 4 sep, 20:17, gu...@postmaster.co.uk wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] As usuall when he as one memories the player think not a big deal... when he has two he ask for help but the help his to big (2 actions). When he as 3 and Gregory is in game it's to late... If you play right memories is not a problem. With the player i'm use to play with I have to put 3 tansion in the rank because every one take out the MoM immidiatly...

> With the player i'm use to play with I have to put 3 tansion in the > rank because every one take out the MoM immidiatly... Fame and Vulnerability also work well. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] You could also replace "Allies" with "Non-Camarilla vampires" and "Memories" with "PTO" in last two sentences.

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:10:35 -0700, Alias <ransom...@seznam.cz> wrote: >> Seriously, Imbued and Memories should never have existed in the same >> game at the same time. Allies were never meant to be main source of >> minions for a deck. If they were, Memories would never have been >> printed as it was. > > You could also replace "Allies" with "Non-Camarilla vampires" and > "Memories" with "PTO" in last two sentences. So very true! -- Regards, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Most likely false, given that PTO was released in Ancient Hearts, a set which contained Corruption and Ravnos Carnival, and which was released after the set containing Aquired Ventrue Assets (and Giovanni in general).

> By the way, we all take notice that we must NEVER let you install and play > it quiet, when all players understand that the Swiss Archetype will soon > vanish. B-) Why did I immediately imagine a bunch of new Archetypes based on national boundaries? Master: Swiss Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. If this Vampire takes no Action and does not Block, he pays 1 less for Reaction cards until your next Untap phase. "We choose to remain neutral in this conflict." Master: Italian Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. This Vampire gains one blood if they maneuveur to Long Range. Only usable once per round. "I'm on your side! No wait, your side!! Master: English Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. For every successful (D) action directed against this Vampire, he gains one blood after it resolves. "Don't worry, we're used to being screwed over. It gives us something to moan about." Master: Korean Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control with a capacity below 5. For every (D) action they attempt, they gain one blood. "Zerg rush kekekeke!!11oneone ^_^" And so on, and so on, and so on.... *Grin* - Dave

On Sep 5, 1:01 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I don't understand at all what are you trying to suggest, sorry. Try to work more on your demagogy skill :) how are the cards you mentioned relevant to this case? there were cca 200 vampires printed, out of them only cca 40 were non- camarilla (do your own research for exact data), thats a ratio of 5:1. And I dare to say that the actual metagame ratio was even smaller, because the indies were SO pathetic, with their very limited crypt selection and signature disciplines having mostly just a bunch of useless and costly cards, that playing them was not a matter of challenge, but of an outright masochism. The same thing with allies vs. the Memories of Mortality - the strongest ally at that time was Renegade Garou, today considered very cornercase if not wallpaper. I don't need to explain my point further I think.

>> By the way, we all take notice that we must NEVER let you install and >> play >> it quiet, when all players understand that the Swiss Archetype will soon >> vanish. B-) > > Why did I immediately imagine a bunch of new Archetypes based on > national boundaries? Nice idea... > Master: Swiss > Archetype > Put this card on a Vampire you control. If this Vampire takes no > Action and does not Block, he pays 1 less for Reaction cards until > your next Untap phase. > "We choose to remain neutral in this conflict." Very good. > Master: Italian > Archetype > Put this card on a Vampire you control. This Vampire gains one blood > if they maneuveur to Long Range. Only usable once per round. > "I'm on your side! No wait, your side!! That might be northern italians, but then we'd need : Master : Sicilian Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. This Vampire gains one blood when they enter combat with a minion controlled by their ally, and two if there was no valid and logical way to do so. "You look at me this way again I castrate your mamma... No, wait, I meant..." > Master: English > Archetype > Put this card on a Vampire you control. For every successful (D) > action directed against this Vampire, he gains one blood after it > resolves. > "Don't worry, we're used to being screwed over. It gives us something > to moan about." Nice. > Master: Korean > Archetype > Put this card on a Vampire you control with a capacity below 5. For > every (D) action they attempt, they gain one blood. > "Zerg rush kekekeke!!11oneone ^_^" Didn't get that one... Now : Master : French Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. This Vampire gains one blood whenever more than 5 minutes elapse between the moment when this vampire's action is announced and the resolution of the action. "Wait, we have to deal this right. Beginning with my Grand-prey. What do you think of the vote I'm calling, what terms would you deem reasonnable and why ? You can cite Descartes to consolidate your arguments." Master : Spanish Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. Put this card on a Vampire you control. This Vampire gains one blood when he makes a D action or calls a vote targetting his prey. Burn this vampire and tear this card in two if another player breaks a deal made to this vampire's controller. "You broke the deal again, puto, if you ever come to play in my town again you'll end up in the arena with my toros !!" Master : American (Republican) Archetype Put this card on a Vampire you control. This Vampire gains one blood when any Assamite is burnt or sent to torpor. This vampire can rush Husamettin in D action at -4 stealth, but the action fails if any methuselah at the table discards a card from his hand. This vampire cannot make any deal with a player who doesn't attack an Assamite every turn (even if no Assamites are on the table). If this vampire takes any damage from a bomb, burn him. * "Yes, we're gonna improve quietus, sure, why not let arabs rule the world too ?! You morons..." * this last one has to be taken with a grain of salt, we're dealing with caricature here, not making fun of dead people on either side. Giovanni don't make fun of dead people. They bring them back to their own side. -- Orpheus ---------------- Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok, then change "would" to "should" in the last sentence of the original text. My impression has always been that PTO was supposed to be a safeguard against going over the top with the independents. They tried a lot of new effects, some of them with a perceived potential to shake the foundations of the game (like ash heap recustion, permanent take control, permanent lockdown and unbeatable combat). The logic was probably - if they are too strong, people will play PTO to balance, if they are not too strong, nobody will bother with PTO. If this is indeed the case it is not hard to see how this thinking was inherently faulty. My opinion is that in an ideal world PTO should have never been printed. Or, the least, it should have been banned after Sabbat came out. Of course, I could list some other cards that I think fall in a very similar bucket... -- Regards, Daneel

Alias wrote: > On Sep 5, 1:01 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Daneel wrote: >>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:10:35 -0700, Alias <ransom.st...@seznam.cz> wrote: >>>>> Seriously, Imbued and Memories should never have existed in the same >>>>> game at the same time. Allies were never meant to be main source of >>>>> minions for a deck. If they were, Memories would never have been >>>>> printed as it was. >>>> You could also replace "Allies" with "Non-Camarilla vampires" and >>>> "Memories" with "PTO" in last two sentences. >>> So very true! >> Most likely false, given that PTO was released in Ancient Hearts, a set which >> contained Corruption and Ravnos Carnival, and which was released after the set >> containing Aquired Ventrue Assets (and Giovanni in general). > > I don't understand at all what are you trying to suggest, sorry. Try > to work more on your demagogy skill :) how are the cards you mentioned > relevant to this case? They show that PTO was designed at a time when Non-Camarilla vampires were meant to be a main source of minions in certain crypts. > there were cca 200 vampires printed, out of them only cca 40 were non- > camarilla (do your own research for exact data), thats a ratio of 5:1. The ratio is irrelevant. cf the ratio of Imbued to Vampires to see (for those interested in doing their own research). You don't need 200 vampires to make a crypt. You need 12. > And I dare to say that the actual metagame ratio was even smaller, > because the indies were SO pathetic, with their very limited crypt > selection and signature disciplines having mostly just a bunch of > useless and costly cards, that playing them was not a matter of > challenge, but of an outright masochism. Corruption is indicative that Setites, at least, were intended to be viable as the main source of vampires in at least one type of deck. > The same thing with allies vs. the Memories of Mortality - the > strongest ally at that time was Renegade Garou, today considered very > cornercase if not wallpaper. ?! > I don't need to explain my point further I think. OK.

>> I don't understand at all what are you trying to suggest, sorry. Try >> to work more on your demagogy skill :) how are the cards you mentioned >> relevant to this case? > > They show that PTO was designed at a time when Non-Camarilla vampires were > meant to be a main source of minions in certain crypts. > >> there were cca 200 vampires printed, out of them only cca 40 were non- >> camarilla (do your own research for exact data), thats a ratio of 5:1. > > The ratio is irrelevant. cf the ratio of Imbued to Vampires to see (for > those interested in doing their own research). > > You don't need 200 vampires to make a crypt. You need 12. I think what they mean is that when PTO was created it could target only a small minority of vampires, and therefore a small minority of decks. So including PTO would work only if at least a player on the table - preferably prey or pred - played one of the 4 Indie Clans. As of now, it will be useful against those, + 9 Sabbat clans, + all the bloodlines, + the Laibon, and that makes a lot of vampires. As the probabilities that your prey or pred will have at least one targettable vampire are much greater than when PTO was created, it has a much greater opportunity window and has become much more powerful than what I believe was first intended, and IMO than what it should be. I'd still hate it if if targetted only indie vamps, but as the window of opportunity would be much lower it would be used a lot less and become less of a nuisance. There are of course other possible fixes, already discussed a number of times right here. What I'm adressing is just the "ratio" part. In the same way, the problem is not the number of Imbued but the number of vampires and vampire-targetting cards !! The Imbued can't be targetted by a number of key-cards, while they can use their key-cards (like MoM) against all the rest of the crypts in existence. Hence the unbalance so many players complain about. >> The same thing with allies vs. the Memories of Mortality - the >> strongest ally at that time was Renegade Garou, today considered very >> cornercase if not wallpaper. > > ?! Don't make that face, Scott ! ;-) I think he means that Memories was much less powerful when allies weren't crypt cards, and that the Renegade Garou wasn't yet outclassed by allies as the War Ghoul or the Shamblings. If that's what he means, he's right : Memories was then cornercase and couldn't be abused as it can now, which is why players ask for a fix now while they didn't (at least not massively) years ago. >> I don't need to explain my point further I think. But you might need to read our explanations further. [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus wrote: >>> I don't understand at all what are you trying to suggest, sorry. Try >>> to work more on your demagogy skill :) how are the cards you mentioned >>> relevant to this case? >> They show that PTO was designed at a time when Non-Camarilla vampires were >> meant to be a main source of minions in certain crypts. >> >>> there were cca 200 vampires printed, out of them only cca 40 were non- >>> camarilla (do your own research for exact data), thats a ratio of 5:1. >> The ratio is irrelevant. cf the ratio of Imbued to Vampires to see (for >> those interested in doing their own research). >> >> You don't need 200 vampires to make a crypt. You need 12. > > I think what they mean is that when PTO was created it could target only a > small minority of vampires, and therefore a small minority of decks. Perhaps, but that's not what was said. What was said: "Non-Camarilla vampires were never meant to be a main source of minions for a deck. If they were, PTO would never have been printed as it was." I used Corruption, Ravnos Carnival, Acquired Venture Assets, and Giovanni in general as indications that the assertion in the first sentence is likely false.

On Sep 5, 5:27 am, Olivier_PEREZ wrote: > As usuall when he as one memories the player think not a big deal... > when he has two he ask for help but the help his to big (2 actions). > When he as 3 and Gregory is in game it's to late... > > If you play right memories is not a problem. > > With the player i'm use to play with I have to put 3 tansion in the > rank because every one take out the MoM immidiatly... Good point. Although I understand what people mean when they argue MoM is too strong (and I actually agree with them to a certain extent), I'm yet to see it to have such a great impact. In our metagame, people get rid of MoMs as soon as they hit the table (usually with the support of other players). Things have to work too well for MoMs to be a huge factor in my favor. I'm still trying, though. Abraço, Luiz Mello

[ quoted text not captured ] Memories does a great job of screwing up the table dynamic by encouraging crosstable rescues and suchlike. Once people start doing that It's not all that much better than Misdirection for actually winning games. witness1

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > Memories does a great job of screwing up the table dynamic by > encouraging crosstable rescues and suchlike. Once people start doing > that It's not all that much better than Misdirection for actually > winning games. I beg to differ. Play it on the guy who has Eternal Vigilance and 2 Guardian Angels and see if getting rid of it is no big deal. MoM is great for lunging. It's good for making people waste valuable time. It's also a killer in the endgame. Quick case study: 4 player table. Weenie ani->me (Imbued with Inspires and stuff)->Marcus Vitel bleed deck with some 2nd Trads->Bakija Gambit deck. About ten minutes into the game, the Bakija Gambit deck is ousted due to the nature of the Gambit. I'm having a little trouble with the weenie ani deck and my prey of course makes the "let's get rid of the Imbued deck and then we'll fight it out deal." I can't really take many undirected actions because I'll get blocked and pecked by Carrion Crows, but I have Church of Vindicated Faith out, so if I can successfully bleed my prey, I get a pool. I keep working on my prey, getting blocked a lot (fortunately only having to take hands 1 or a Majesty in response) and eventually he realizes that his deal isn't very good because he's going to be ousted first. He starts trying to bleed the weenie ani deck and does some damage, gets beat up a little. I manage to kill my prey. I immediately start dropping the MoM on the ani guys, naturally hitting the one with the Raven Spy and .44 first. I Sudden the Heidelberg and the Smiling Jack. I block all rescue attempts. When one of my guys gets pillow-faced, I burn Convictions to torporize another ani weenie. I making keeping them in torpor my top priority. When I block one that doesn't go to long and has only 1 blood, I punch him for 2 and he goes down. Eventually, I overrun my prey for the win. There's no other card in vtes that would give me that kind of advantage. Matt Morgan

On Sep 5, 4:12 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > > Memories does a great job of screwing up the table dynamic by > > encouraging crosstable rescues and suchlike. Once people start doing > > that It's not all that much better than Misdirection for actually > > winning games. > > I beg to differ. Play it on the guy who has Eternal Vigilance and 2 > Guardian Angels and see if getting rid of it is no big deal. MoM is great > for lunging. It's good for making people waste valuable time. It's also > a killer in the endgame. Sure. It's a great lunge card. Better than Misdirection, as I said. > Quick case study: > > 4 player table. Weenie ani->me (Imbued with Inspires and stuff)->Marcus > Vitel bleed deck with some 2nd Trads->Bakija Gambit deck. About ten > minutes into the game, the Bakija Gambit deck is ousted due to the nature > of the Gambit. I'm having a little trouble with the weenie ani deck and > my prey of course makes the "let's get rid of the Imbued deck and then > we'll fight it out deal." I can't really take many undirected actions > because I'll get blocked and pecked by Carrion Crows, but I have Church of > Vindicated Faith out, so if I can successfully bleed my prey, I get a > pool. > > I keep working on my prey, getting blocked a lot (fortunately only having > to take hands 1 or a Majesty in response) and eventually he realizes that > his deal isn't very good because he's going to be ousted first. He starts > trying to bleed the weenie ani deck and does some damage, gets beat up a > little. I manage to kill my prey. I immediately start dropping the MoM > on the ani guys, naturally hitting the one with the Raven Spy and .44 > first. I Sudden the Heidelberg and the Smiling Jack. I block all rescue > attempts. When one of my guys gets pillow-faced, I burn Convictions to > torporize another ani weenie. I making keeping them in torpor my top > priority. When I block one that doesn't go to long and has only 1 blood, > I punch him for 2 and he goes down. Eventually, I overrun my prey for the > win. > > There's no other card in vtes that would give me that kind of advantage. There are lots of cards in vtes that give you that kind of advantage. witness1

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > Sure. It's a great lunge card. Better than Misdirection, as I said. You said "not that much better." :) > There are lots of cards in vtes that give you that kind of advantage. So name a few. How else would an Imbued deck overcome a blocky/fighty deck? Matt Morgan

On Sep 5, 4:45 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > > Sure. It's a great lunge card. Better than Misdirection, as I said. > > You said "not that much better." :) It's "not that much better" because it's only much better when your prey puts all his eggs in one basket. Eventually, they stop doing this. > > There are lots of cards in vtes that give you that kind of advantage. > > So name a few. Smiling Jack. Madness Network. Sudden Reversal. Graverobbing. Entombment. Society of Leopold. No Secrets From the Magaji. > How else would an Imbued deck overcome a blocky/fighty > deck? Flash Grenade. Shoot them back with your own weapons. Run them out of cards, blood, and eventually pool. Your resources naturally regenerate; theirs do not. In the long game, you should always win. witness1

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > On Sep 5, 4:45 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: >> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: >>> Sure. It's a great lunge card. Better than Misdirection, as I said. >> >> You said "not that much better." :) > > It's "not that much better" because it's only much better when your > prey puts all his eggs in one basket. Eventually, they stop doing > this. I think YMMV here. I usually have a very good idea of where I want to play a MoM. If nothing else, there will be one guy who has a Mr. Winthrop, a gun or is untapped. Even if the MoM is burned right away, it still costs an action at 3 blood from somebody. I don't see how that's only a little better than Misdirection. That's significant, especially if your Imbued deck by construction or by situation has a bruise element. >>> There are lots of cards in vtes that give you that kind of advantage. >> >> So name a few. > > Smiling Jack. > Madness Network. > Sudden Reversal. > Graverobbing. > Entombment. > Society of Leopold. > No Secrets From the Magaji. Okay, those cards can cause a pretty dramatic shift in the balance of play, but I don't think any of them really give the kind of advantage I'm talking about. That advantage is "I burn a pool and play a master card and you lose use of a minion for the rest of the game." Not an action. Can't be blocked. Can't easily be gotten rid of. >> How else would an Imbued deck overcome a blocky/fighty >> deck? > > Flash Grenade. Shoot them back with your own weapons. Run them out of > cards, blood, and eventually pool. > > Your resources naturally regenerate; theirs do not. In the long game, > you should always win. Okay, I'm not going to argue that that couldn't work, because it clearly could. Weapons are not the focus of my deck, so beating weenie ani with combat wasn't going to work that well most likely. In my case, MoM did the trick in a way that Misdirection never would. I guess I rate MoM higher than you do. Weren't you posting here about how you only have 2 copies of that card and never play it much? Matt Morgan

On Sep 5, 5:02 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: Weren't you posting here about how > you only have 2 copies of that card and never play it much? John, How many copies of that card would you like? Perhaps you can play them enough at ground zero there in Atlanta to raise the awareness level of a chosen few. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp ...I hope Jeff still lets me crash in is Hotel room for the NAC.

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:32:19 -0700, XZealot <xze...@cox.net> wrote: >On Sep 5, 5:02 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: >> Weren't you posting here about how >> you only have 2 copies of that card and never play it much? He played with 6 during the tournament. The traitorous Tatus loaned them to him. @#$%!@##$!@$!@#$ >John, >How many copies of that card would you like? Perhaps you can play >them enough at ground zero there in Atlanta to raise the awareness >level of a chosen few. Six seems to be the magic number.

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:02:00 -0500, Matthew T. Morgan <far...@io.com> wrote: >> Smiling Jack. >> Madness Network. >> Sudden Reversal. >> Graverobbing. >> Entombment. >> Society of Leopold. >> No Secrets From the Magaji. > > Okay, those cards can cause a pretty dramatic shift in the balance of > play, but I don't think any of them really give the kind of advantage > I'm talking about. That advantage is "I burn a pool and play a master > card and you lose use of a minion for the rest of the game." Not an > action. Can't be blocked. Can't easily be gotten rid of. Pentex Subversion Master 2 pool Unique master. Put this card on any ready minion. The minion with this card may not perform any actions and cannot block actions. This card may be burned by any other minion as a (D) action. -- Regards, Daneel

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:12:34 -0500, Matthew T. Morgan <far...@io.com> wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > >> Memories does a great job of screwing up the table dynamic by >> encouraging crosstable rescues and suchlike. Once people start doing >> that It's not all that much better than Misdirection for actually >> winning games. > > I beg to differ. Play it on the guy who has Eternal Vigilance and 2 > Guardian Angels and see if getting rid of it is no big deal. MoM is > great for lunging. It's good for making people waste valuable time. > It's also a killer in the endgame. > > Quick case study: [...] > I Sudden the Heidelberg and the Smiling Jack. [...] > There's no other card in vtes that would give me that kind of advantage. > > Matt Morgan Matt, From your description it seems to me that you won because of the Sudden Reversals. Master card cancellation is very strong - you can win games with it that you couldn't win with any other effect. I could even expand that to "generic card cancellation" in general, seeing how DI is also Determining the result of many games... -- Regards, Daneel

Daneel schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] May I point out the Unique-ness of Pentex Subversion? Granted, it is a very strong card (one of the best), but with MoM you can easily hit every minion of your prey (in a 1 vs 1 situation), while Pentex takes out only one Animalism Weenie. Also a successfull action to remove Pentex is often pulled of more easily than going into torpor and surviving it ;-) -- Johannes Walch

On Sep 5, 6:02 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > > On Sep 5, 4:45 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, witness1 wrote: > >>> Sure. It's a great lunge card. Better than Misdirection, as I said. > > >> You said "not that much better." :) > > > It's "not that much better" because it's only much better when your > > prey puts all his eggs in one basket. Eventually, they stop doing > > this. > > I think YMMV here. I usually have a very good idea of where I want to > play a MoM. If nothing else, there will be one guy who has a Mr. > Winthrop, a gun or is untapped. Even if the MoM is burned right away, it > still costs an action at 3 blood from somebody. There's no guarantee that the blood and/or action cost will be payed by the people you want it to. Eventually, it won't. > I don't see how that's > only a little better than Misdirection. That's significant, especially if > your Imbued deck by construction or by situation has a bruise element. It's only good if it doesn't end up handing the table to someone else. Significant, sure, but not good. > >>> There are lots of cards in vtes that give you that kind of advantage. > > >> So name a few. > > > Smiling Jack. > > Madness Network. > > Sudden Reversal. > > Graverobbing. > > Entombment. > > Society of Leopold. > > No Secrets From the Magaji. > > Okay, those cards can cause a pretty dramatic shift in the balance of > play, but I don't think any of them really give the kind of advantage I'm > talking about. That advantage is "I burn a pool and play a master card > and you lose use of a minion for the rest of the game." Not an action. > Can't be blocked. Can't easily be gotten rid of. Society of Leopold doesn't even cost a pool, and Memories doesn't demand that they lose a minion, only a blocker. It happened in this specific case that each Memories was a lost minion for your prey. In other specific cases, nearly every card in the game can have the same or greater effect. > >> How else would an Imbued deck overcome a blocky/fighty > >> deck? > > > Flash Grenade. Shoot them back with your own weapons. Run them out of > > cards, blood, and eventually pool. > > > Your resources naturally regenerate; theirs do not. In the long game, > > you should always win. > > Okay, I'm not going to argue that that couldn't work, because it clearly > could. Weapons are not the focus of my deck, so beating weenie ani with > combat wasn't going to work that well most likely. In my case, MoM did > the trick in a way that Misdirection never would. MoM is certainly better in face to face. You have to get there first. > I guess I rate MoM higher than you do. Weren't you posting here about how > you only have 2 copies of that card and never play it much? I played with 6 on Sunday. In the finals, all the memories played were removed and the vamps rescued crosstable. They cost my prey all of one blood each. I couldn't even get people to make my predator take one of the rescue actions. Not worth the pool and MPAs I spent on them. witness1

On Sep 5, 6:32 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > On Sep 5, 5:02 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > Weren't you posting here about how > > > you only have 2 copies of that card and never play it much? > > John, > How many copies of that card would you like? Perhaps you can play > them enough at ground zero there in Atlanta to raise the awareness > level of a chosen few. I would love to have a half-dozen or so Memories for potential future Garou, War Ghoul, Nephandus, etc. decks that I have yet to build. For my imbued decks, not so much. witness1

On 6 sep, 10:25, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote: > Daneel schrieb: > > > > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:02:00 -0500, Matthew T. Morgan <farq...@io.com> [ quoted text not captured ] Sorry bur I don't agree. Let's be honnest about it.. Usually when a vampire go to torpor he survive it. For that you just have to be OK with the guy with the vote lock or to have intercepte. Usually MoM are put on vampire with intercept so no one will try diablerize you. And if you do it with one minion keeping the other in defense you are fine. Player are afraid of torpor, but they are wrong... being in torpor is not a big deal when you have other vampire... And Pentex works in every situation. You can start building a deck thinking 1 or 2 pentex. MoM works only with allies and is only usefull when there is intercepte or heavy fight. It's strong with imbued, but I'm shur that LSJ when he build the imbued was awer of MoM? Don'tyou? I'm shur it has been tested... I would be interested about wath was the result of those test?

[ quoted text not captured ] Sure Oliver, torpor is no isseu. IN MY TURN. When can hopefully do something about it. When i have to go to torpor at the end of my turn and live on the mercy of other players, thats when i start having a problem with it.

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok you have a point.

Olivier_PEREZ schrieb: > Let's be honnest about it.. Usually when a vampire go to torpor he > survive it. For that you just have to be OK with the guy with the vote > lock or to have intercepte. Except when you have a Gregory Winter and all of the ready minions of your opponent (assuming the 1vs1 situation I was talking about). > Usually MoM are put on vampire with intercept so no one will try > diablerize you. And if you do it with one minion keeping the other in > defense you are fine. > Player are afraid of torpor, but they are wrong... being in torpor is > not a big deal when you have other vampire... Like it was said by others, as long as it´s your turn torpor might be ok. When you can´t rescue or can´t block diablerie ... well ... > And Pentex works in every situation. You can start building a deck > thinking 1 or 2 pentex. Sure. 1-2 Pentex is a good thing for most of the decks. But still it can´t create a total lock-down in the endgame. Also it can´t make you virtually unblockable by any given opponent. > MoM works only with allies and is only usefull Kind of moot, since we are talking about Imbued decks. They are allies. Of course MoM in an Arika deck is shit ;-) > when there is intercepte or heavy fight. Even if there is no intercept it´s good since you can take out any blockers and keep your Second Sight for defense. > It's strong with imbued, but I'm shur that LSJ when he build the > imbued was awer of MoM? Don'tyou? I certainly think so. But despite his quality work in design he is not the father allmighty, you know. > I'm shur it has been tested... I would be interested about wath was > the result of those test? Obviously the result was that it´s ok. Else MoM probably would have been changed right from the start. But the tests happen in limited environments and not under realistic big tournament situations. -- Johannes Walch

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:15:29 +0200, Johannes Walch <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote: >> And Pentex works in every situation. You can start building a deck >> thinking 1 or 2 pentex. > > Sure. 1-2 Pentex is a good thing for most of the decks. But still it can > ´t create a total lock-down in the endgame. Also it can´t make you > virtually unblockable by any given opponent. Perfectly honestly I think Anthelios + Parthenon is far more brokenest than Memories. If you remove recursion from the equation, you come to a situation very similar to other high-yield-high-investment situations; sure, if you play Memories instead of other Masters, and save them for the end game, and manage to make the game a 2-way, then yeah, you can have complete lockdown. Also, see, all the other kinds of complete lockdown (a good start would be Uchenna with 2 Raven Spies, 3 Murder of Crows', 2 Guardian Angels, a Sniper Rifle and No Secrets from the Magaji). In any case when there is a hype about Memories there is always some other element involved, Anthelios + Parthenon being the most common. If you have close-to-infinite recursion set up, then yes, some situational/cancellation cards can be immensely powerful. I think that Memories is fine. The real issue is with Imbued and recursion. Ban Champion and Determine, then Imbued won't be close to unoustable, and no matter how many Memories they pack, they will be oustable just like any other deck. Ban / change cards to prevent recursion, and V:tES will make a step back towards the strategic resource management aspect - if you include conditional stuff, you include it at the expense of generic stuff. My 20 Fillérs*, anyway. * Fillér was the change currency used beside the Hungarian Forint (kind of like Eurocent is used alongside the Euro) until inflation made it unnecessary and it was removed from circulation in 1999. -- Regards, Daneel

On 7 sep, 09:04, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote: > On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:15:29 +0200, Johannes Walch > [ quoted text not captured ] I think you touch the main thing... recursion. Recursion is the strongest thng you have in VTES. But to be fair I think that the new eventThe Uncoiling is absolotly enormus. In sweeden I haven't seen any... that was very good for me. Try to play 1 copy of Uncoiling in every deck that is not using event and you will improove drastikly your deckbulding. Imagine an imbued without Edge? or Without Unmasking? Or imagine any deck couting on Anthelios without it? It's really good. Banning card is not a good idea in my opinion. Changing card make it really dificult for new players. To fix overpower card having another cad is the good solution. The Uncoiling is the key.

Daneel schrieb: > Perfectly honestly I think Anthelios + Parthenon is far more brokenest than > Memories. If you remove recursion from the equation, you come to a > situation > very similar to other high-yield-high-investment situations; sure, if you > play Memories instead of other Masters, and save them for the end game, > and > manage to make the game a 2-way, then yeah, you can have complete > lockdown. Well, Anthelios and Parthenon by itself is rather useless, only in combination with other cards it becomes powerful. But I can see where you are going. > Also, see, all the other kinds of complete lockdown (a good start would be > Uchenna with 2 Raven Spies, 3 Murder of Crows', 2 Guardian Angels, a > Sniper > Rifle and No Secrets from the Magaji). That takes 5 employ actions or 5 pack alpha, a lot of blood, 6 pool, 2 MPA and another two actions. A *bit* more difficult to set-up than putting down 2-3 Memories and still easily hosed by Elder Impersonation (even more since they loose the No Secrets). > In any case when there is a hype about Memories there is always some other > element involved, Anthelios + Parthenon being the most common. If you have > close-to-infinite recursion set up, then yes, some > situational/cancellation > cards can be immensely powerful. Right. Anthelios + Parthenon + D.I is also very good esp. in the hands of the Imbued. > I think that Memories is fine. The real issue is with Imbued and recursion. > Ban Champion and Determine, then Imbued won't be close to unoustable, and > no matter how many Memories they pack, they will be oustable just like any > other deck. Ban / change cards to prevent recursion, and V:tES will make a > step back towards the strategic resource management aspect - if you > include > conditional stuff, you include it at the expense of generic stuff. Of course getting rid of Memories is not the only way to nerf the Imbued some. Banning Champion and Determine would actually a bit harsh since it robs them of most of their defense and they have a hard time gaining pool. I still think changing MoM would be the better fix, because that card was just designed at a moment where allies weren´t very strong. > My 20 Fillérs*, anyway. > > * Fillér was the change currency used beside the Hungarian Forint (kind of > like Eurocent is used alongside the Euro) until inflation made it > unnecessary and it was removed from circulation in 1999. So if I read that correctly you want to indicate that your opinion is de-facto worthless? :-)))) -- Johannes Walch

[ quoted text not captured ] > The Uncoiling is the key.- Hide quoted text - yeah, a key to waste a card slot in your deck, just in case another player plays with one of the three broken cards. Btw, you not only have a -1 hand size if you do play Uncoiling (that is not so bad because your ally can remove it for you after use), but if you draw it too early, before events start to hit the table, you have effectively -1 hand size too, because you have to hold it and wait "what-if-they-play-unmasking". sorry, but your whole point is just a 1000th incarnation of "Return to Innocence is not broken, you just don't play enough DIs" > > - Show quoted text -

On Sep 7, 9:38 am, Olivier_PEREZ <olivier.eni...@gmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] btw I strongly disagree with the last sentence, I think this is the worst solution of all, printing "anti-cards" against broken cards/ strategies is leading to rock-paper-scissors situations, and I am quite concerned about the increasing number of such cards.. good examples being Gran Madre Dio, Valerius, No Secrets..

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:41:35 +0200, Johannes Walch <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote: >> Also, see, all the other kinds of complete lockdown (a good start >> would be >> Uchenna with 2 Raven Spies, 3 Murder of Crows', 2 Guardian Angels, a >> Sniper >> Rifle and No Secrets from the Magaji). > > That takes 5 employ actions or 5 pack alpha, a lot of blood, 6 pool, 2 > MPA and another two actions. A *bit* more difficult to set-up than > putting down 2-3 Memories and still easily hosed by Elder Impersonation > (even more since they loose the No Secrets). Dropping 2-3 Memories completely locks down some decks. Let's say that You could probably lock down a similar-sized cluster of decks by Uchenna, No Secrets, Sniper Rifle and Raven Spy. 3 cards, 3 minion phase actions, 2 pool, 1 blood, I think roughly comparable to 2-3 cards, 2-3 master phase actions, 2-3 pool. > Right. Anthelios + Parthenon + D.I is also very good esp. in the hands > of the Imbued. Agreed. > Of course getting rid of Memories is not the only way to nerf the Imbued > some. Banning Champion and Determine would actually a bit harsh since it > robs them of most of their defense and they have a hard time gaining > pool. I still think changing MoM would be the better fix, because that > card was just designed at a moment where allies weren´t very strong. You might be right - however, in my experience, Memories is far less an issue with Imbued decks than Champion or Determine, for example. So as far as I'm concerned, even banning Memories wouldn't make the Imbued acceptable, but it would weaken a score of other decks. >> My 20 FillÄ‚Ĺ rs*, anyway. >> >> * FillÄ‚Ĺ r was the change currency used beside the Hungarian Forint >> (kind of >> like Eurocent is used alongside the Euro) until inflation made it >> unnecessary and it was removed from circulation in 1999. > > So if I read that correctly you want to indicate that your opinion is > de-facto worthless? :-)))) Actually, the value of Fillér is constantly increasing due to the collector value, as with all sorts of money no longer in circulation. :) -- Regards, Daneel

In article <1189150696.4...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, Olivier_PEREZ <olivier...@gmail.com> wrote: > Banning card is not a good idea in my opinion. > Changing card make it really dificult for new players. > To fix overpower card having another cad is the good solution. This is, like, the worst way to deal with broken cards. If you leave overpowered/broken cards in the game and deal with them by printing specific counter cards (i.e. "magic bullet game design") eventually you end up with a huge pile of cards that you need to include in your deck to be competitive, making deck building an exercise in "Do I have all the necessary magic bullets?" which reduces deck variety. Magic bullet game design is also known as bad game design. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html "Find hungry samurai." -The Old Man