[LSJ] Is a Judge required/allowed to rule on the details of a Succubus Club deal?

This came up during the tournament we held last Sunday, Muricia's Call: Castro Valley. There was some debate when a Methuselah who had no minions on the table and not enough pool to bring another out, made a deal to exchange his bleed cards with his grand-predator who had a Succubus Club in play. The Methuselah's predator called the judge to question the deal stating that the Methuselah wasn't getting any benefit from it and was just out to delay the game and the Methuselah's impending ouster (not his exact words mind you). My question(s): Does a Judge have any say in the matter? Does a Succubus Club deal need to have an obvious benefit for both parties making the deal? - J.A. Marbella VEKN Prince of Castro Valley (CA) http://www.geocities.com/powerbasecastrovalley/

Yoritomo Jiriki wrote: > My question(s): Does a Judge have any say in the matter? The judge has a say in any matter. The rules do not restrict a player in a lost position from losing in the manner of his choosing, no. > Does a > Succubus Club deal need to have an obvious benefit for both parties > making the deal? No. It has to merely have no negative impact on either. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>This came up during the tournament we held last Sunday, Muricia's >Call: Castro Valley. There was some debate when a Methuselah who had >no minions on the table and not enough pool to bring another out, made >a deal to exchange his bleed cards with his grand-predator who had a >Succubus Club in play. The Methuselah's predator called the judge to >question the deal stating that the Methuselah wasn't getting any >benefit from it and was just out to delay the game and the >Methuselah's impending ouster (not his exact words mind you). > Hey there Joel! If a player is in a losing position (and as you described, this individual was with no minions and no way to get another minion), then he or she is able to lose in whatever manner he or she chooses.*** *** I suppose at this point, Josh or Trey might pipe in and state that the player still has a chance of winning. Like if someone decides to call 3 Parity Shifts to give you pool. Or you somehow manage to get a vampire by bidding via HT, ToGP, or Time Auction. Or someone decides to oust your prey for you. But, fanciful theoreticals aside, you've pretty much lost. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030317233543...@mb-fh.aol.com... > > If a player is in a losing position (and as you described, this individual was > with no minions and no way to get another minion), then he or she is able to > lose in whatever manner he or she chooses.*** > What happens if a player has a few minions, one or two pool, and it is obvious that he will not win the game? Is he/she allowed to kill herself? How do you enforce this? Game loss in the next round? What if it is in the final round? Is there a list somewhere I can look at for a detailed analysis of various different situations that may occur in a tournament and how to deal with them? Thalles

The Horror <tdem...@anhb.uwa.edu.au> wrote: > What happens if a player has a few minions, one or two pool, and it is > obvious that he will not win the game? Is he/she allowed to kill > herself? How do you enforce this? Game loss in the next round? What > if it is in the final round? Is there a list somewhere I can look at > for a detailed analysis of various different situations that may > occur in a tournament and how to deal with them? http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3CC9585D.5A1CDD9F%40white-wolf.com "Players must play to win. If one has multiple paths to victory, then one is free to choose from among those paths. If one cannot win, then one is obliged to maximize one's VPs. If there are multiple paths available to achieve the most VPs one can get, then one is free to choose. If one cannot win, and the most VPs one can acquire is '0 more than currently acquired', then one is free to acquire those 0 more VPs in any manner one wishes." > > Thalles Kevin M. "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

>> What happens if a player has a few minions, one or two pool, and it is >> obvious that he will not win the game? Is he/she allowed to kill >> herself? How do you enforce this? Game loss in the next round? What >> if it is in the final round? Is there a list somewhere I can look at >> for a detailed analysis of various different situations that may >> occur in a tournament and how to deal with them? >If one cannot win, then one is obliged to maximize one's VPs. If there >are multiple paths available to achieve the most VPs one can get, >then one is free to choose. > >If one cannot win, and the most VPs one can acquire is '0 more >than currently acquired', then one is free to acquire those 0 >more VPs in any manner one wishes." In your scenario you clearly stated that it is "obvious that [the player] will not win the game." Thus according to the quote above, he/she is obliged to maximize his/her VP's. If the most he/she can acquire is 0 VP's, then "one is free to acquire those 0 more VPs in any manner one wishes." Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030317233543...@mb-fh.aol.com... [Joel aka Yoritomo Jiriki wrote] > >This came up during the tournament we held last Sunday, Muricia's > >Call: Castro Valley. There was some debate when a Methuselah who had > >no minions on the table and not enough pool to bring another out, made > >a deal to exchange his bleed cards with his grand-predator who had a > >Succubus Club in play. The Methuselah's predator called the judge to > >question the deal stating that the Methuselah wasn't getting any > >benefit from it and was just out to delay the game and the > >Methuselah's impending ouster (not his exact words mind you). > *** I suppose at this point, Josh or Trey might pipe in and state that the > player still has a chance of winning. Like if someone decides to call 3 Parity > Shifts to give you pool. Or you somehow manage to get a vampire by bidding via > HT, ToGP, or Time Auction. Or someone decides to oust your prey for you. But, > fanciful theoreticals aside, you've pretty much lost. OK, when you're in an "I'm at the mercy of the table to even try to keep me alive, let alone ever have a vampire in play" situation, I'll give you the lost cause benefit of the doubt. ;-) I just hate to see people give up far earlier than they need to. Hell, I hate to see people feel like they're in the "I can do nothing except kingmake" situation at all. It's a problem for multiplayer games where players can be removed from contention before they're removed from the game. Josh you blew my cover and you sold it to the world

>OK, when you're in an "I'm at the mercy of the table to even >try to keep me alive, let alone ever have a vampire in play" >situation, I'll give you the lost cause benefit of the doubt. >;-) > >I just hate to see people give up far earlier than they need >to. Hell, I hate to see people feel like they're in the "I >can do nothing except kingmake" situation at all. It's a >problem for multiplayer games where players can be removed >from contention before they're removed from the game. Hey Josh, well I'm glad that it seems you're willing to be at least *somewhat* reasonable... =P What? You don't have faith in the tag-team of Jake Washington + Akhenaten + Hell Hound? Watch out, cause the Ally Coalition will do things that vampires can only dream of! Halcyan 2