Much of the following has already been posted. Any opinions regarding
them are happily encouraged.
---
I'm starting this thread to organize all of the ideas seen regarding
possible new wordings of Thoughts Betrayed. I apologize for not
remembering who came up with them. Whether or not Thoughts Betrayed
works as is or as follows is up to you. (Apologies for some bad wordings...)
Template: Thoughts Betrayed, Dominate Combat Card...
In all cases, Thoughts betrayed is played at the beginning of
combat, unless otherwise noted.
v1) Cost: 2
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play combat cards this combat.
Basic Effect: As official card text, except the inferior is given
some teeth.
v2) Cost: 0
Inferior: At the end of every round, this minion may spend 1 blood to
cause one damage to the opposing minion.
Superior: For the remainder of this combat, this minion may spend 1
blood to cancel the opposing minion from playing a combat card.
Basic Effect: Canceling multiple cards costs more, while lower
abilities (the inferior) become useful.
v3) Cost: 2
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
Superior: The opposing minion cannot play combat cards this round.
Basic Effect: Gives the inferior some power, and makes the superior a
method to get to second round combat alive.
v4) Cost: 2
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
Superior: No combat cards can be played by combatants this combat.
Basic Effect: Gives the inferior some power, and makes the superior a
purely defensive card or a permanent-based combat card.
v5) Cost: 2
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
Superior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage for every combat card
played this combat.
Basic Effect: Gives the inferior some power, and makes combat decks
scared to use their combat powers in the superior, without totally
curtailing their power.
v6) Cost: 2
Only usable by a vampire which has just successfully blocked an action.
Inferior: Opposing Minino suffers one damage at the end of every round.
Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play combat cards this combat.
Basic Effect: Makes the card only usable in defense (blocking), makes
the inferior useful, but basicly keeps the card the same.
v7) Cost: 2
Inferior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion takes an
additional 1 damage in the first round of combat during strike resolution.
Superior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion cannot {play}
any cards for the remainder of combat once range is being determined.
Basic Effect: Keeps card text mostly the same, but allows the
opponents to play _some_ cards that still make them a threat while still
giving the vampire playing Thoughts Betrayed a huge power.
(opponent can play cards up until pre-range ends on this round. Think
Wolf Claws, etc...)
v8) Cost: 3
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of this round.
Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play combat cards this combat.
Basic Effect: Makes the cost more of a detriment.
v9) Cost: 2
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of this round.
Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play strike or strike-modifying
cards this combat.
Basic Effect: Allows the opponent some combat defense but takes away
most of their power.
v10) Cost: 0
Inferior: Play this card to burn a combat card other than a Thoughts
Betrayed played by a minion the vampire is in combat with. Do not replace
until after combat.
Superior: As above but the Opposing Minion may not replace the card
burned until after combat.
Basic Effect: Limits key offensive/defensive measures of opponent,
but doesn't kill opponents ability to respond.
v11) Cost: 2
Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of each round.
Superior: Opposing Minion cannot replace cards used in combat, and
cannot play a card of the same name as one already played that combat.
Basic effect: Gives the inferior some use, and the superior limits
but does not totally hose combat from the opponent.
Comments?
[Reply-to:sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu]
@ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++
# Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # C(+++)$ USX+$ N++ e+*
@#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ tv(+)> X++ b++(+++)
@#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ PS+&-+ PE&-&++ z*+?
> In general, I feel uncomfortable with any card that says "opponent may not
> play *any* card" for any significant length of time. No matter what the
> cost, it basically becomes a "go get a Coke" card, as James Hamblin
> complained.
Woohoo! I've coined a term! Go me!
Ahem. Sorry.
> In addition, such effects are unprecedented in Jyhad: the
> best you can get from the original set is not allowing one particular type
> of card for one round.
So let's make a list;
Immortal Grapple: Prevents non-hand strikes, and maneuvers (but only
after the first round)
Blood Rage/Fury: Prevents Fortitude prevention and equipment
Drawing out the Beast: Prevents maneuvers, equipment
Hidden Lurker/Fast Reaction: Prevents strikes for first round
Dog Pack: Prevents S:CE
S:CE: Prevents strikes
I'm sure that there are more; these stand out in my mind. All of these
are quite powerful, but TB is more so.
> I think Thoughts betrayed should be along the lines of:
>
> Cost 2 blood
>
> normal: Opponent may not Maneuver in this combat.
> Superior: Opponent may not Maneuver or press in this combat.
>
> This is still a hellacious combat card in Tremere or Giovanni deck, with
> defensive applications for gun decks.
I think that a better (and certainly not as hallacious) version would
be:
Cost: 2 blood
Inf: Play before range is chosen in the first round of combat. Opposing
minion may only play maneuvers to cancel maneuvers and may only press to
continue combat.
Sup: As above, but opposing minion may not play strikes which do not
cause damage during this combat.
I think this is a wording that hasn't been come up with before. It
doesn't screw combat decks, it gives the Tremere more of a chance to get
into the second round, and it prevents S:CE, albeit at a cost.
> I'm aware that TB would no longer hose S:CE, which is presumably one of
> its original design goals. However, S:CE is a general problem, not one
> experience only by Dominate clans. If S:CE must be addressed via a hoser
> card, the card should be disciplineless.
How about this:
Evocation of Rage
Cost: 0.
Play before strike declaration once range has been determined as short.
Opposing minion may not play non-damaging strikes and gets +1 hand
damage for the remainder of combat. This minion has an optional press,
only usable to continue combat.
What do you think?
James
--
* James Hamblin *
* Cornell University *
* je...@cornell.edu *
In general, I feel uncomfortable with any card that says "opponent may not
play *any* card" for any significant length of time. No matter what the
cost, it basically becomes a "go get a Coke" card, as James Hamblin
complained. In addition, such effects are unprecedented in Jyhad: the
best you can get from the original set is not allowing one particular type
of card for one round.
I think Thoughts betrayed should be along the lines of:
Cost 2 blood
normal: Opponent may not Maneuver in this combat.
Superior: Opponent may not Maneuver or press in this combat.
This is still a hellacious combat card in Tremere or Giovanni deck, with
defensive applications for gun decks.
I'm aware that TB would no longer hose S:CE, which is presumably one of
its original design goals. However, S:CE is a general problem, not one
experience only by Dominate clans. If S:CE must be addressed via a hoser
card, the card should be disciplineless.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
Your list, describing exactly what type of cards are forbidden (or
rendered ineffective, if you prefer) by these original Jyhad cards
should be revised slightly, in that Immortal Grapple works right from
the outset (not just the second round). Secondly, on the matter of Blood
Rage and Blood Fury, it raises the question of whether or not Chimestry
should be able to soak these Thaumaturgical rituals.
Scott Whittaker
Scott Whittaker wrote:
>
> Your list, describing exactly what type of cards are forbidden (or
> rendered ineffective, if you prefer) by these original Jyhad cards
> should be revised slightly, in that Immortal Grapple works right from
> the outset (not just the second round).
I meant that IG prevents you from maneuvering, but only after the
first round.
>Secondly, on the matter of Blood
> Rage and Blood Fury, it raises the question of whether or not Chimestry
> should be able to soak these Thaumaturgical rituals.
Of course they should. The cards say "Fortitude", not "damage
prevention". You can Sideslip a Blood Fury, so why can't you Apparition
it?
[ quoted text not captured ]
James,
In your proposed revision for the TB card you had it worked to prevent the
playing of non-damaging strikes in order to prevent a S:CE escape. I
don't have the card in front of me, but wouldn't the celerity combat card
Riposte be the only viable S:CE in this case. It ends combat and does one
damage (two at superior) to the opponent. Granted that this would only be
able to get a celeritous vamp out of the combat in the second round.
Would this still fit in with your proposed fix?
Doug Dunaway
[ quoted text not captured ]
Under the card text which I posted, yes; you would be able to play
Riposte. I don't see this as a real problem, since it can't be used
first round, so is less of a combat trump than ordinary S:CE.
James
--
| James Hamblin | "No man is a Three Mile Island." |
| je...@cornell.edu | --Crow T. Robot |
James,
I approve of your proposal to fix the text of Thoughts Betrayed. I also
don't think that allowing a vamp to play Riposte in the second round would
weaken the card too much. Thanks for the new idea.
Doug Dunaway
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96090...@sol36.cs.wisc.edu>
The Corrupter <adr...@sol36.cs.wisc.edu> writes:
[The long list of variations follows...]
First, thanks very much for compiling this!
>Much of the following has already been posted. Any opinions regarding
>them are happily encouraged.
Here are mine....
[snip]
>v1) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
> Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play combat cards this combat.
> Basic Effect: As official card text, except the inferior is given
>some teeth.
It's broken, broken, broken.
>v2) Cost: 0
> Inferior: At the end of every round, this minion may spend 1 blood to
>cause one damage to the opposing minion.
> Superior: For the remainder of this combat, this minion may spend 1
>blood to cancel the opposing minion from playing a combat card.
> Basic Effect: Canceling multiple cards costs more, while lower
>abilities (the inferior) become useful.
This one is OK.
>v3) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
> Superior: The opposing minion cannot play combat cards this round.
> Basic Effect: Gives the inferior some power, and makes the superior a
>method to get to second round combat alive.
This one is OK, too, although a little too powerful.
>v4) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
> Superior: No combat cards can be played by combatants this combat.
> Basic Effect: Gives the inferior some power, and makes the superior a
>purely defensive card or a permanent-based combat card.
Don't like this. It still has that trump-card feel.
>v5) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of every round.
> Superior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage for every combat card
>played this combat.
> Basic Effect: Gives the inferior some power, and makes combat decks
>scared to use their combat powers in the superior, without totally
>curtailing their power.
This is Ok, a little weak for the cost.
>v6) Cost: 2
> Only usable by a vampire which has just successfully blocked an action.
> Inferior: Opposing Minino suffers one damage at the end of every round.
> Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play combat cards this combat.
> Basic Effect: Makes the card only usable in defense (blocking), makes
>the inferior useful, but basicly keeps the card the same.
I'd rather not see yet another defensive Dom card.
>v7) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion takes an
>additional 1 damage in the first round of combat during strike resolution.
> Superior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion cannot {play}
>any cards for the remainder of combat once range is being determined.
> Basic Effect: Keeps card text mostly the same, but allows the
>opponents to play _some_ cards that still make them a threat while still
>giving the vampire playing Thoughts Betrayed a huge power.
>(opponent can play cards up until pre-range ends on this round. Think
>Wolf Claws, etc...)
I like this, it doesn't hose combat clans entirely. Becomes more of
a Tremere and Majesty hoser.
>v8) Cost: 3
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of this round.
> Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play combat cards this combat.
> Basic Effect: Makes the cost more of a detriment.
It's still a trump card, and therefore bad.
>v9) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of this round.
> Superior: Opposing Minion cannot play strike or strike-modifying
>cards this combat.
> Basic Effect: Allows the opponent some combat defense but takes away
>most of their power.
Don't like this one much. Still lets people play Pulled Fangs. And why
should Fortitude and Celerity receive the benefits, rather than
other abilities? What's the purpose of the card?
>v10) Cost: 0
> Inferior: Play this card to burn a combat card other than a Thoughts
>Betrayed played by a minion the vampire is in combat with. Do not replace
>until after combat.
> Superior: As above but the Opposing Minion may not replace the card
>burned until after combat.
> Basic Effect: Limits key offensive/defensive measures of opponent,
>but doesn't kill opponents ability to respond.
I like this one quite a bit. It's in line with what the card should do,
and it's not overpowered.
>v11) Cost: 2
> Inferior: Opposing Minion suffers one damage at the end of each round.
> Superior: Opposing Minion cannot replace cards used in combat, and
>cannot play a card of the same name as one already played that combat.
> Basic effect: Gives the inferior some use, and the superior limits
>but does not totally hose combat from the opponent.
I don't have much use for all the "inferior makes opposing minion
suffer one damage" variants.
Here's a different variant, and one more along the lines of the card
title.
Cost: 2
Inferior: Opponent must show player their hand. Player may
select one combat card which cannot be played in the current
combat.
Superior: As above, and opponent may not replace cards used in
combat until the end of combat.
--
Tom Doehne
doe...@cse.ogi.edu
concerning Thoughts betrayed (TB). In our gaming group we
have decided, like others, I assume, to ban this card. The
reasoning is purely and simply that it has no possible
counter - similarily we are debating (well okay, arguing),
over whether to similarily ban blood to water. However,
whereas most of the players in my gaming group say that you
can't change a card at all - it stays as read (or as
officially errata'd) or it goes, I, on the other hand, would
like to see cards changed slightly so that they can still be
played (perhaps some what selfishely as I have a Ventrue deck
that I attempt to fight with, and TB would be a great adition
to it). I personally would favour the version that is similar
to hidden lurker(HL) / fast reaction(FR) (2 blood and a
superior discipline required makes up for a HL/FR that can be
used on any combat - perhaps for the whole combat, perhaps
for just the one round. However, this is very preventable
with fortitude combat, which had become very powerful in the
Ancient Hearts suppliment (Kiss of Ra, extra damage
prevention card - Hidden strength <note: this is mainly worth
while in a card limit environment>) especially when linked
with protean and animalism as is most commonly found.
However, it is probably best to leave this to other cards and
so the HL/FR version seems most appropriate. I think that my
main moan about fortitude stems from the fact that my Brujah
can't beat up the gangrel, but the gangrel can beat up my
brujah - I dont want to have to leave it all to the Assamites
and the Tremere (and having card limits maked the assamites a
bit rubbish at it anyway.)
Ben
gen...@leeds.ac.uk (Ben Redmond) writes:
>concerning Thoughts betrayed (TB). In our gaming group we
>have decided, like others, I assume, to ban this card. The
>reasoning is purely and simply that it has no possible
>counter - similarily we are debating (well okay, arguing),
>over whether to similarily ban blood to water. However,
Blood to Water is probably not in need of banning - it is only
unbalanced if you read it as:
if(opposing minion is a vampire)
then
{
opposing minion (vampire) burns blood or is burned
}
Rather than the official (and literal) reading:
if(opposing minion is a vampire)
then
{
opposing minion (vampire) burns blood
}
else
{
opposing minion (ally) is burned
}
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Clap on! <clap> <clap>
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Clap off! <clap> <cla+W."
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | ^Ejq#xe>4NO CARRIER
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
> gen...@leeds.ac.uk (Ben Redmond) writes:
> >concerning Thoughts betrayed (TB). In our gaming group we
> >have decided, like others, I assume, to ban this card. The
> >reasoning is purely and simply that it has no possible
> >counter - similarily we are debating (well okay, arguing),
> >over whether to similarily ban blood to water. However,> Blood to Water is probably not in need of banning - it is only
> unbalanced if you read it as:> if(opposing minion is a vampire)
> then
> {
> opposing minion (vampire) burns blood or is burned
> }> Rather than the official (and literal) reading:> if(opposing minion is a vampire)
> then
> {
> opposing minion (vampire) burns blood
> }
> else
> {
> opposing minion (ally) is burned
> }
>
> --
OH! We were burning vampires with blood to water. It's good Knew this.
A Question. Can you use Elyseum to stop a combat when your oponent
plays Thoughts betrayed?. I think yes.
Ban Thoughts betrayed! Ok, It's powerfull but, You can avoid T.B.
with equipment, and master cards.
I think the best thing that can be done it's correct the card.
Excuse my English. (It's bad, isn't it?)
I.C.C. Have a nice day.
Ignacio Colunga Cantero (i938...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es) wrote:
:
: A Question. Can you use Elyseum to stop a combat when your oponent: plays Thoughts betrayed?. I think yes.
Ayup. The official ruling is that Thoughts Betrayed at superior only prevents
cards being played from the hand... it does not prevent the use of permanents,
locations, masters, equipment, etc. which have already been played.
: Ban Thoughts betrayed! Ok, It's powerfull but, You can avoid T.B.: with equipment, and master cards.
Not so much avoid as get less hamstrung.
: I think the best thing that can be done it's correct the card.
Join the club, though it appears that it won't happen.
: Excuse my English. (It's bad, isn't it?)
Eh, not bad at all.
-spongy
: Here's a different variant, and one more along the lines of the card: title.
: Cost: 2
: Inferior: Opponent must show player their hand. Player may
: select one combat card which cannot be played in the current
: combat.
: Superior: As above, and opponent may not replace cards used in
: combat until the end of combat.: --
: Tom Doehne
: doe...@cse.ogi.edu
:
This looks pretty good to me, though I would prefer it as one
card, instead of only one combat card, to get rid of some
particularly nasty Master and other cards which regularly ruin
my day (for example, we play with Rotschreck, under the
original card text, which makes it an incredibly powerful
card). It's kind of a moot point, though, isn't it, as WotC
can't exactly recall all the TB on the market, even if they
wanted to in order to change the card. Besides, I happen to
like the card, as it is the only way my Tremere can get to
second round in the group I play with any regularity.
Otherwise, either my presses are all countered, I get
Rotschrecked first round, or combat is ended around me.
Wallpaper Paste
for all those useless cards
On 23 Sep 1996, Kristopher Zierhut wrote:
> Thoughts betrayed is not a broken card, you just have to play with
> equipment or with other cards that you can use to help you in combat,
> but are played outside of combat.
I don't think TB is broken, just that it has no place in Jyhad. It
doesn't allow people to really fight back against it with standard
defenses. Instead, one has to think: "How do I handle _specific_ card X,
rather than, how do I handle combat/bleed/vote, or for those decks, how do
I handle anti-combat/bleed/vote.
> All you whiners about thoughts
> betrayed are just not being creative. Want a one-card hose against
> thoughts betrayed, how about shadow of the beast? (new in V;TES), it
> give a free maneuver and press every combat.
So now we want to play a game of trumps? Play Magic, not Jyhad, then.
> In addition, thoughts
> betrayed helps to deal with the combat ends cheese.
There are already plenty of ways to deal with anti-combat.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Thoughts betrayed is not a broken card, you just have to play with
equipment or with other cards that you can use to help you in combat,
but are played outside of combat. All you whiners about thoughts
betrayed are just not being creative. Want a one-card hose against
thoughts betrayed, how about shadow of the beast? (new in V;TES), it
give a free maneuver and press every combat. In addition, thoughts
[ quoted text not captured ]
(hey, are you the Kristopher Zeirhut who graduated from Cornell a few
years ago?)
Kristopher Zeirhut wrote:
"All you whiners about thoughts betrayed are just not being creative.
Want a one-card hose against
thoughts betrayed, how about shadow of the beast? (new in V;TES), it give
a free maneuver and press every combat. In addition, thoughts betrayed
helps to deal with the combat ends cheese."
TB is considered a broken card because it goes completley against the
theory of the game. It is a Trump card, and one of the very few in the
game, if not the only one in the game (well, AI springs to mind...:-).
Jyhad does not and should not rely on such Trump cards, and thus has no
need for TB. It's effect is completely inequivelant to it's cost (2
blood), prevents your opponent from playing the game (and makes them go
get a coke...), and is unwarented in the structure of the game.
No other card has the ability to completely destroy the opponents ability
to act in so many ways. No other card screws everything. Jyhad is a big
and complex game of Paper-Sciscors-Rock, and all other cards are either a
Paper, a Scisor, or a Rock. TB functions as a Bomb, if you are farmilliar
with the P-S-R variant rules :-).
As to the "Single Card Hose" against TB (which isn't desiarable in the
first place), oh good. Shadow of the Beast allows you to move to long
range from the Tremere while he steals your blood, and then allows you to
cycle an extra press out of his hand while he presses into the second
round and burns you, while you stand around and twiddle your thumbs.
As the Corrupter stated, there are plenty of ways to deal with S:CE that
do not prevent them from playing the game. Immortal Grapple. Hidden
Lurker. Fast Reaction. Psyche. Dog Pack. I am fairly certain that
every single clan now has a way to deal with S:CE, one way or the other,
without TB. Without TB, your opponent can still try. With TB, your
opponent does not even have that choice.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"...and this Perpetual Motion Machine is a joke.
It just keeps going faster and faster!"
-Homer J Simpson