Timing question: Heidelburg BEFORE Temptation kicks in? (LSJ?)

My prey plays Temptation on one of my vamps, then attempts to take him immediately and transfer equipment off him. Can I tap my Heidelberg Castle beforehand? Ie. After the Temptation action and before the counter burning? Cheers, d

[ quoted text not captured ] Not in the general case. The acting Methuselah gets the first chance. If the temptation was played via a Madness Network action, perhaps.

[ quoted text not captured ] Shouldn't there be room between actions for all Methuselahs to play effects? -- - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew

[ quoted text not captured ] Isn't it usually Actor, Reactor, then around the table clockwise to the left of the Actor? best - chris -- Super Fun Cards http://myworld.ebay.com/superfuncards/ auct...@superfuncards.com

On Feb 6, 1:06 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > gpettig...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Feb 6, 3:40 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >> d wrote: > >>> My prey plays Temptation on one of my vamps, then attempts to take him > >>> immediately and transfer equipment off him. > >>> Can I tap my Heidelberg Castle beforehand? Ie. After the Temptation > >>> action and before the counter burning? > >> Not in the general case. The acting Methuselah gets the first chance. > > >> If the temptation was played via a Madness Network action, perhaps. > > > Shouldn't there be room between actions for all Methuselahs to play > > effects? > > Isn't it usually Actor, Reactor, then around the table clockwise to the > left of the Actor? That's what I would think. It may make a difference if you attempt to use Heidelberg during the Temptation action (before block/before reaction/before "success") vs. if you attempt to use Heidelberg in response to acting meth declaring he burns Temptation counters after the action to put Temptation into play is successful. Former seems fine, latter seems not. At least, I see these as two discrete "actions" which you can't "interrupt," but there's a window in there that you can respond to the initial Temptation within.

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes. With the Meth whose turn it is going first. As her first activity between actions, she may burn the Temptation counters and take control of the minion. Then, when she subsequently passes on further effects, you may tap the castle (but, at this point, you no longer control the Tempted minion, so the castle can't move stuff to or from him).

crispyfloss wrote: > On Feb 6, 1:06 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >> gpettig...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Feb 6, 3:40 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>>> d wrote: >>>>> My prey plays Temptation on one of my vamps, then attempts to take him >>>>> immediately and transfer equipment off him. >>>>> Can I tap my Heidelberg Castle beforehand? Ie. After the Temptation >>>>> action and before the counter burning? >>>> Not in the general case. The acting Methuselah gets the first chance. >>>> If the temptation was played via a Madness Network action, perhaps. >>> Shouldn't there be room between actions for all Methuselahs to play >>> effects? >> Isn't it usually Actor, Reactor, then around the table clockwise to the >> left of the Actor? > > That's what I would think. > > It may make a difference if you attempt to use Heidelberg during the > Temptation action (before block/before reaction/before "success") vs. > if you attempt to use Heidelberg in response to acting meth declaring > he burns Temptation counters after the action to put Temptation into > play is successful. Former seems fine, latter seems not. The former runs afoul of the "Cannot be used during an action." text on the castle, so is not fine.

> Yes. With the Meth whose turn it is going first. As her first activity between > actions, she may burn the Temptation counters and take control of the minion. > Then, when she subsequently passes on further effects, you may tap the castle > (but, at this point, you no longer control the Tempted minion, so the castle > can't move stuff to or from him). The only problem about this ruling (or its converse; actually the whole situation in general) is that you can run afoul of several slapjack-esque scenarios that could result in arguments and the possible intervention of a judge. If you had tapped the Castle before the acting player declared his triggering of Temptation, he might claim that you had jumped the gun and he wants to do so in his window of oppurtunity. You might then argue that he is only wanting to trigger the effect *now* because you tipped your hand, and that a certain period of silence indicated to you that he was declining to trigger the Temptation. Luckily, most VTES players are fairly reasonable people. In general, the game avoids problems like this by fairly strict timing rules that govern various sorts of cards. Unfortunately, effects like Temptation and Heidelberg Castle slip through those cracks because the "I do something between actions" subphase is not very well defined.

In message <1170823998....@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, CthuluKitty <vtana...@riseup.net> writes: >> Yes. With the Meth whose turn it is going first. As her first >>activity between >> actions, she may burn the Temptation counters and take control of the minion. >> Then, when she subsequently passes on further effects, you may tap the castle >> (but, at this point, you no longer control the Tempted minion, so the castle >> can't move stuff to or from him). > >The only problem about this ruling (or its converse; actually the >whole situation in general) is that you can run afoul of several >slapjack-esque scenarios that could result in arguments and the >possible intervention of a judge. If you had tapped the Castle before >the acting player declared his triggering of Temptation, he might >claim that you had jumped the gun and he wants to do so in his window >of oppurtunity. This isn't new, though. We've already had to deal with that with the whole "I Bum's Rush you" "Wait, before that action, I wanted to save all the equipment on the vampire you're about to pound, honest I did." If you've solved that problem already for your group, apply the same answer here. If you haven't, you need to. >In general, the game avoids problems like this by fairly strict timing >rules that govern various sorts of cards. Unfortunately, effects like >Temptation and Heidelberg Castle slip through those cracks because the >"I do something between actions" subphase is not very well defined. Kind of. You get similar issues with all sorts of cards with slightly odd timing phases. "Okay, no maneuvers. Range is close. I Majesty." "Wait! I wanted to play Immortal Grapple." -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Feb 7, 2:45 am, James Coupe <j...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In message <1170823998.720680.98...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > Kind of. You get similar issues with all sorts of cards with slightly > odd timing phases. > > "Okay, no maneuvers. Range is close. I Majesty." > "Wait! I wanted to play Immortal Grapple." > Combat phase timing can be annoying. If we've already established that my deck will only strike, I will usually say "I strike whatever" and tell them to play whatever they want whenever appropriate. If, on the other hand, we have 2 decks with combat thingies to do, I never let anyone skip the prestrike phase (a quick NO Grapple will suffice), the Press Step, the end-of-round step (a quick NO Taste), and the after- combat step (NO Psyche!). It really is just easier to say all these things every time they're liable to come up than have to argue about it again and again. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Combat phase timing can be annoying. If we've already established that > my deck will only strike, I will usually say "I strike whatever" and > tell them to play whatever they want whenever appropriate. If, on the > other hand, we have 2 decks with combat thingies to do, I never let > anyone skip the prestrike phase (a quick NO Grapple will suffice), the > Press Step, the end-of-round step (a quick NO Taste), and the after- > combat step (NO Psyche!). It really is just easier to say all these > things every time they're liable to come up than have to argue about > it again and again. I agree 100%. The pres-strike step is just as much a step in combat as is the prerange step. Granted there are fairly few cards that get played here, but one of them in particular is very common: Immortal Grapple. Unfortunately, the "do stuff between actions" subphase is less well defined.

[ quoted text not captured ] It is equally well-defined. I think you mean: "it is less often used".

> It is equally well-defined. I think you mean: "it is less often used". And is thus less well defined in the minds and common play practices of many players and groups, but sure, that's what I mean. The rules are certainly clear enough if you can consistenly follow them like a robot. However, it'd be a sad day to have wait for the entire table to decline doing anything between actions everytime someone resolves something. The fix to the problem is just being reasonable, and if that's not possible in some situations, then having a reasonable judge.