Rotschreck questions...

ok... this card just confuses me... probably because, IIRC, it used to be banned, so well took our copies and put them somewhere, and no one knows where... anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the appropriate range... Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike? strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it. it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I torn-signpost/FOD/ undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand, they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could easily prevent it all.... anyway, some help you be appreciated. Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

>Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike? >strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a >chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone >would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it. --------------------------- It can be used when the minion attempts to inflict agg damage that would occur at current range. So even if the acting minion has the ability to prevent the damage it was still attempted and would be applicable. It's pretty sweat when the acting minion attempts to strike: combat ends. >it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I torn-signpost/FOD/ >undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand, >they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could >easily prevent it all.... --------------------------- You can beg for someone to play a Sudden Reversal, outside of that your vampire is heading to torpor.

Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as an example). So if the Gangrel played Wolf Claws to damage Brutus-the-Brujah, some generous player could play this out-of-turn master to send the Gangrel to torpor. This card is meant to make aggravated damage decks a more risky option. Our group play this card this way: a card is played by a vampire (Wolf Claws, Sengir Dagger, Flamethrower, ...). This card can be also a weapon DECLARED as a strike. The card must be able to deal aggravated damage. Then, before any damage is resolved (no damage is actually dealt by any of the minions in that combat) a player can play this master out-of-turn (if it is not his turn to play: its a out-of-turn) to send the vampire that would have dealt aggravated damage to the opposing minion in torpor. If the Gangrel play a Wolf Claws at the beginning of the battle (before the choose strike phase), then I believe that he can be targeted from that moment by the Röthshreck. In that situation, you could choose to wait after the strikes are declared before playing the Röthschreck if you want to keep the suspense. Easy. :-) William Pyle a écrit dans le message <366de78b...@news.mindspring.com>... >ok... this card just confuses me... probably because, IIRC, it used to be banned, >so well took our copies and put them somewhere, and no one knows where... > >anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted >by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the >appropriate range... > >Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike? >strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a >chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone >would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it. > >it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I torn-signpost/FOD/ >undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand, >they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could >easily prevent it all.... > [ quoted text not captured ]

"lisa" <bob...@globetrotter.net> wrote: > Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to > DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish > decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as > an example). No read the card again. It says when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage against an opposing vampire, the vampire goes to torpor tapped. The card is representative of the immortal fear of lethal damage. It's not a bad card to be used as a defense if you're about to be burned. Noal -- "DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors." -Ambrose Bierce. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

In article <74l2rq$3ji$1...@news.quebectel.com>, "lisa" <bob...@globetrotter.net> wrote: > Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to > DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish > decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as > an example). This is how the card was ruled to be played for a while. No longer. It was recently ruled to work (appropriately) against the vampire on the receiving end of the damage goes to torpor. [snip example of play under old rulings] > William Pyle a écrit dans le message > <366de78b...@news.mindspring.com>... > >ok... this card just confuses me... probably because, IIRC, it used to be > banned, > >so well took our copies and put them somewhere, and no one knows where... > > > >anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted > >by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the > >appropriate range... Hmm...I think this is right...hadn't really thought about environmental vs. strike. But I suppose there's really no point in playing Rotschreck on a Dawn Op'd Weather Control, is there? (Though of course Carrion Crows & Blood of Acid are different...) > >Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike? > >strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a > >chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone > >would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it. Before damage resolution. No chance to dodge it or prevent it. > >it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I > torn-signpost/FOD/ > >undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand, > >they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could > >easily prevent it all.... Well, it is kinda sucky, but I believe that Rotschreck is intended to simulate not any physical attributes or anything, but the complete mental *freak-out* of the vampire that gets hit with it. Even the bravest Ventrue sometimes run in immortal terror from the light of the sun or the claws of a Gangrel which *could* result in Final Death. However, the only deck it's *really* useful in is an intercept-aggravated damage deck. Maybe Gangrel with lots of Raven Spies or Malkavian Intercept-Disguised Weapon deck stocked up with Flamethrowers & WP Grenades... Xian "they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain lion on crack" --greensea [ quoted text not captured ]

William Pyle wrote: > anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted > by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the > appropriate range... > > Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike? > strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? When the "attempt" is announced. Usually this is during the choose strike phase. > does the targetted vampire get a > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all. > if someone > would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it. You play Rotschreck and combat ends (no damage done). The vampire on whom Rotschreck is played is then placed in Torpor. > it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I torn-signpost/FOD/ > undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand, > they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could > easily prevent it all.... It's a matter of instinct overriding the knowledge that the damage won't "really" hurt you. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html

In article <74l2rq$3ji$1...@news.quebectel.com>, "lisa" <bob...@globetrotter.net> wrote: > Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to > DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish > decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as > an example). Rotschreck affects the target of aggravated damage. It is poorly worded, but many people can't figure out why it was ever ruled to be the other way around. Card text analysis: ]Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damaged against a vampire, Remember that minion refers to both allies and vampires while vampire can only refer to vampires. ]whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved. That ]vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the Some people feel that all of a sudden that "That vampire" refers to the minion and not the vampire. Doesn't make any sense to me. ]vampire's next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire. > So if the Gangrel played Wolf Claws to damage Brutus-the-Brujah, some > generous player could play this out-of-turn master to send the Gangrel to > torpor. This card is meant to make aggravated damage decks a more risky > option. Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving Potence / Protean aside). Also, the main clan with Protean has no real good counter to S:CE. Aggravated damage is tough enough to do in high enough amounts to make it count. [ snip ] > If the Gangrel play a Wolf Claws at the beginning of the battle (before the > choose strike phase), then I believe that he can be targeted from that > moment by the Röthshreck. So what if he just played the Wolf Claws to get it out of his hand and then Canine Hordes your Leather Jacket or dodges? He hasn't attempted to deal aggravated damage yet and the conditions for playing Rotschreck haven't been met. > In that situation, you could choose to wait after > the strikes are declared before playing the Röthschreck if you want to keep > the suspense. > > Easy. :-) Mike -- Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign Rules Survey - http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/vekn/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <74m4em$6cr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mboh...@shout.net wrote: > Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get > away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving > Potence / Protean aside). Ohhhh...Potence/Protean...*drool* I should re-post (? post?) my pot/pro deck for more suggestions. Mmm..Ebanezer Roush, Lisette Vizquel, and Rex...plus a few others... Hmm...maybe that will start some interesting conv. (Sorry...just tired of all rulings questions and no strategy talk...all my fault, I know...) I'll go get the listing... Xian P.S. to Legbiter: Did we finish a final listing on that deck? I think I'm going to sign up for the next JOL game and get it going if you thought it was pretty solid. I don't really remember if we had the final numbers down. (Gonna keep the percentages the same, just up it to 120, I think...) "they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain lion on crack" --greensea -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- [ quoted text not captured ]

mboh...@shout.net wrote: 8< (hey, that actually DOES look like scissors, cool) >Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get >away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving >Potence / Protean aside). Also, the main clan with Protean has no real good >counter to S:CE. Aggravated damage is tough enough to do in high enough >amounts to make it count. > By 'main clan with protean' I assume you mean Gangrel.... how many real good counters to S:CE are there?? IG... we play 4CL, so 4 IG is only so helpful... but at least the gangrel have Dog Pack... now, granted, I've never actually used it, but it looks like it'd be damn handy in a gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try... but anyway... thanks for all the answers... and I'll try to stop lurking so much and actually post more. Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

In article <74mbjn$d1l$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: > In article <74m4em$6cr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > mboh...@shout.net wrote: > > Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get > > away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving > > Potence / Protean aside). > > Ohhhh...Potence/Protean...*drool* > > I should re-post (? post?) my pot/pro deck for more suggestions. > Mmm..Ebanezer Roush, Lisette Vizquel, and Rex...plus a few others... Sorrow had an excellent pot/pro deck in jol64. Easily reconstructed from discards. I had to oust him with a back-bleed, about which he was NOT pleased. > > Hmm...maybe that will start some interesting conv. (Sorry...just tired of > all rulings questions and no strategy talk...all my fault, I know...) I'll > go get the listing... > > Xian P.S. to Legbiter: Did we finish a final listing on that deck? I think > I'm going to sign up for the next JOL game and get it going if you thought it > was pretty solid. I don't really remember if we had the final numbers down. > (Gonna keep the percentages the same, just up it to 120, I think...) Yep, i have it in my file and it looks ok. It has defences against all the strategies except an IG rush deck, and the offence looks reasonable too, except that the secondary strategy is not going to be very fast. The only thing we didn't sort out is the votes. Do you want me to post you what we agreed on? I will try it out in my next jol game [unless you are in it], too, but i think i will leave the card numbers at 90. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <366f209e...@news.mindspring.com>, wp...@mindspring.com wrote: quick reply to another thread: Yes, Lazvernius does belong in the Pot/Pro/For deck...I guess I wasn't really thinking. He is *really* damn big, though, and Ebanezer's rush is really nice...but maybe switch one Laz for one Eb... > mboh...@shout.net wrote: > > 8< (hey, that actually DOES look like scissors, cool) > >Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get > >away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving > >Potence / Protean aside). Also, the main clan with Protean has no real good > >counter to S:CE. Aggravated damage is tough enough to do in high enough > >amounts to make it count. > > > > By 'main clan with protean' I assume you mean Gangrel.... how many real Yup. Gangrel. > good counters to S:CE are there?? IG... we play 4CL, so 4 IG is only Ack. No comment on 4CL. > so helpful... but at least the gangrel have Dog Pack... now, granted, > I've never actually used it, but it looks like it'd be damn handy in a Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well, they're close enough to counters... > gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that > 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try... Huh? How is this going to work? If you have a 4CL for the whole deck, I don't think it would be even remotely possible that you'd get out more than 1 or 2 during the game, if it went at all quickly. Not that I'm knocking you for trying, but...man...I had to make 1/6 of a 90-card deck Raptors for it to turn out to my liking... > but anyway... thanks for all the answers... and I'll try to stop lurking > so much and actually post more. Posting is good. More discussion is good. Taunting Jasper about the "Rubmle in the Bronx" is good. Xian [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <74phjv$5no$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: >Posting is good. More discussion is good. Taunting Jasper about the "Rubmle >in the Bronx" is good. I thought you'd given up on that, my toreador look-alike, tremere loving friend... ;-) Just what kind of wacky Nosferatu do you think you are!? I may have to get into a JOL game one of these days, just so we can see who ends up on top. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: >Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well, >they're close enough to counters... ok, I'll grant you fast reaction and hidden lurker... I wasn't thinking all that clearly last night, too long a day at work... but psyche? yeah, it's great, you start another combat - guess what? he majesty's again. not that much help there, 'cept to see which of you runs out first > >> gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that >> 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try... > >Huh? How is this going to work? If you have a 4CL for the whole deck, I >don't think it would be even remotely possible that you'd get out more than 1 >or 2 during the game, if it went at all quickly. Not that I'm knocking you >for trying, but...man...I had to make 1/6 of a 90-card deck Raptors for it to >turn out to my liking... I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody? not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make... we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore. and besides, none of my group reads this newsgroup anymore, so they won't be expecting any raptors.... and I probly run through all my cards about 50% of the games... so it should be fun. Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

In article <36707181...@news.mindspring.com>, William Pyle <wp...@mindspring.com> wrote: >I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we >play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and >stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody? >not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think >a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make... >we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore. Um, I hate to break it to you, but Stealth Bleed is _far_ more viable under 4CL than under NCL. Such game balance distortion is actually one of the major arguments against CLs. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:17:04 GMT, wp...@mindspring.com (William Pyle) wrote: >xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: > > >>Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well, >>they're close enough to counters... > >ok, I'll grant you fast reaction and hidden lurker... I wasn't thinking >all that clearly last night, too long a day at work... but psyche? >yeah, it's great, you start another combat - guess what? he >majesty's again. not that much help there, 'cept to see which >of you runs out first He does. 80% of the time if you've built the deck right =) Most Majesty-based defense decks don't seem to hold more than one in their hands in reserve, in order to get as many votes/presence bleed in as they can. That means that they're betting that the next card off the top of their deck will ALSO be a Majesty, to save their ass. For me, it seems to work out that if htey don't have an Elysium handy to save them the second time... splat. Most amusing trick? rush... majesty. psyche... he drew another and majesty AGAIN. psyche AGAIN, and he was out =) (I don't discard psyches ever, with just 8 in the deck... ;) had one in my hand from game start.) Also, from what I've found, if you have enough Rush actions in your deck, sure he may be able to block one minion's rush, but he won't have drawn back to save himself from the OTHER two minions. Even more meaningful when you've used a Haven Uncovered (one rush for three or four minions).... rush, majesty, ignore. rush, majesty, psyche, OOPS! didn't draw it? ok, torporize. Now the next two minions grab the opportunity and rush the other guys however they can (even to the point of rushing and hoping to draw better strike cards or a blur), since majesty decks don't cycle cards in combat and you KNOW he's out. =) Very important to remember: A combat deck doesn't have to beat all 20 majesties at once... just enough to run him out in his hand. With enough rush action and Psyches, you can do it a lot easier than you think since he's not cycling cards at all. =) (IG obviates the necessity of course.) >>> gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that >>> 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try... >> >>Huh? How is this going to work? If you have a 4CL for the whole deck, I >>don't think it would be even remotely possible that you'd get out more than 1 >>or 2 during the game, if it went at all quickly. Not that I'm knocking you >>for trying, but...man...I had to make 1/6 of a 90-card deck Raptors for it to >>turn out to my liking... > >I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we >play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and >stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody? >not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think >a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make... >we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore. We pretty much have the same, with a slight alteration: sneak-bleed is OK if you don't use obfuscate/dominate. =) if you can find a way to sneak without obf or a way to bleed without DOM, ... go for it =) i have a sneakish-bleedish deck that uses Nossie stealth to first load up on tasha morgan and laptops, and then sends them all to bleed at +2 or so stealth. As effective as Malk OBF/DOM bleed? Nah. Much more fun though and a lot less likely to cause disgruntledness since you DID get to see it all coming =) -- Derek (replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)

In article <36707181...@news.mindspring.com>, wp...@mindspring.com wrote: > xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: > > >Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well, > >they're close enough to counters... > > ok, I'll grant you fast reaction and hidden lurker... I wasn't thinking > all that clearly last night, too long a day at work... but psyche? > yeah, it's great, you start another combat - guess what? he > majesty's again. not that much help there, 'cept to see which > of you runs out first Yup. That's right. Of course, this all says to me that 4CL is bad. If you didn't have CL, you would always be guessing as to whether or not he still had one. With 4CL, you know pretty accurately at least how many he has left, and vice versa. I'd point you to the excellent articles about why Jyhad doesn't need CL, but I can't remember Mark Langsdorf's URL off the top of my head (bookmarks missing since 'puter crashed...), but if you go to www.deckserver.net/jol.html you can find a listing for his page there, I believe. > I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we > play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and > stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody? I'm not sure what you mean by "no-CL and stealth-bleed." Do you mean that *everyone* played S&B decks? How odd. > not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think > a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make... It is. > we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore. Hmm...everyone (Chris & Jasper to my dejanews-lagged eyes, so far...) has been skirting around this, but perhaps what your group needed/needs is a shake-up in the meta-game. The *ultimate* S&B counter-deck is a Potence rush deck. Since you're asking about Majesty, I suspect that vote or bleed decks using presence are pretty prevalent. Hmm...personally, I would recommend trying to figure out what strategy the other players aren't prepared to deal with & then play it. Harder to do with 4CL, though. Or you could ask the newsgroup for its opinions about how to play against certain decks. God knows I did that for about a year, going on & on about the Gangrel (under different email addresses). An look at me now! A Nosferatu-wannabe! Heh. (Sidenote, perhaps the best anti-Gangrel deck is a Fortitude pool-gain deck.) Unfortunately, once I developed some sense, my playgroup had dissolved. Need more players... > and besides, none of my group reads this newsgroup anymore, > so they won't be expecting any raptors.... and I probly run through > all my cards about 50% of the games... so it should be fun. Hmm...it sounds to me more like a (Gangrel?) permanent-intercept. With 4CL, you might just as well throw in Raven Spies & Sport Bikes too... I guess it just didn't sound much like a "Raptor" deck, as the primary idea there is to make people discard many many cards, and under 4CL, it just wouldn't happen. Unless you added bigbigbig bleeds with Dirty Little Secrets... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <74pqt4$hp4$1...@news.NERO.NET>, phil...@tn.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote: > In article <74phjv$5no$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > >Posting is good. More discussion is good. Taunting Jasper about the "Rubmle > >in the Bronx" is good. > > I thought you'd given up on that, my toreador look-alike, tremere > loving friend... ;-) Just what kind of wacky Nosferatu do you > think you are!? I may have to get into a JOL game one of these days, > just so we can see who ends up on top. That would be fun. We'd have to plan it though, as I'm usually simply testing my freak decks. That is, if you want a *real* fight... And I'm the wacky kind of Nosferatu that designs a deck *around* Yong-Sun and one other card...look for it in a few days!!! Something that came up a week or two ago in discussion with Legbiter...while discussing cool but largely useless/flavor cards... Xian, who no longer looks like Anneke, as his hair has been shorn. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > does the targetted vampire get a > > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? > > No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all. So if I Burst of Sunlight then Rotschreck the opposing minion, my minion does not take any ag? And do Dragon's Breath Rounds still burn the gun? -davey!

davey hathorn wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > > does the targetted vampire get a > > > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? > > > > No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all. > > So if I Burst of Sunlight then Rotschreck the opposing minion, my minion > does not take any ag? > Indeed. You go over to the window, start to open up the shade and then the other vampire goes crazy and bolts. You shrug, leave the window closed and the go suck his blood. 8) > And do Dragon's Breath Rounds still burn the gun? > Nope. All ya gotta do is plug those suckers into your gun and point it at the enemy. He'll get so scared, he'll piss in his post-modern boots and run off with his trenchcoat tails between his legs. (Afterall, in the World of Darkness, everyone wears a trenchcoat.) -Chris

davey hathorn wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > > does the targetted vampire get a > > > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? > > > > No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all. > > So if I Burst of Sunlight then Rotschreck the opposing minion, my minion > does not take any ag? The damage doesn't get resolved, right. > And do Dragon's Breath Rounds still burn the gun? No. DBR only burns the gun when the strike (from the gun) resolves. [ quoted text not captured ]

phil...@tn.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote: >In article <36707181...@news.mindspring.com>, >William Pyle <wp...@mindspring.com> wrote: >>I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we >>play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and >>stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody? >>not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think >>a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make... >>we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore. > >Um, I hate to break it to you, but Stealth Bleed is _far_ more >viable under 4CL than under NCL. Such game balance distortion is >actually one of the major arguments against CLs. I know that... there's tons more stealth than intercept if you're limiting yourself to 4 cards... my main point was that we moved away from stealth-bleed, that's all... Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

lor...@nospam.nineball.org (Derek S. Ray) wrote: 8< >We pretty much have the same, with a slight alteration: sneak-bleed >is OK if you don't use obfuscate/dominate. =) if you can find a way >to sneak without obf or a way to bleed without DOM, ... go for it =) >i have a sneakish-bleedish deck that uses Nossie stealth to first load >up on tasha morgan and laptops, and then sends them all to bleed at +2 >or so stealth. As effective as Malk OBF/DOM bleed? Nah. Much more >fun though and a lot less likely to cause disgruntledness since you >DID get to see it all coming =) > >-- Derek >(replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :) I've noticed that.... we dont' mind nearly as much if you go with a protean-stealth (or other non-obfuscate) concept... Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: 8< >Yup. That's right. Of course, this all says to me that 4CL is bad. If you >didn't have CL, you would always be guessing as to whether or not he still >had one. With 4CL, you know pretty accurately at least how many he has left, >and vice versa. I'd point you to the excellent articles about why Jyhad >doesn't need CL, but I can't remember Mark Langsdorf's URL off the top of my >head (bookmarks missing since 'puter crashed...), but if you go to >www.deckserver.net/jol.html you can find a listing for his page there, I >believe. I read all those articles 'bout a year ago, the last time I frequented the ng's... I seem to recall having been involved in several lengthy and heated debates on the merits of 4CL vs No-CL... but that's neither here nor there, we play mostly 4CL... you don't have to follow it, but most of us do unless we have a nifty concept to use.... and besides, I only own 5 raptors, so making a 4CL raptor (more a just gangrel-intercept deck, truly...) deck isn't too far from my No-CL deck would be... >Hmm...everyone (Chris & Jasper to my dejanews-lagged eyes, so far...) has >been skirting around this, but perhaps what your group needed/needs is a >shake-up in the meta-game. The *ultimate* S&B counter-deck is a Potence rush >deck. Since you're asking about Majesty, I suspect that vote or bleed decks >using presence are pretty prevalent. Hmm...personally, I would recommend >trying to figure out what strategy the other players aren't prepared to deal >with & then play it. Harder to do with 4CL, though. Or you could ask the >newsgroup for its opinions about how to play against certain decks. God >knows I did that for about a year, going on & on about the Gangrel (under >different email addresses). An look at me now! A Nosferatu-wannabe! Heh. >(Sidenote, perhaps the best anti-Gangrel deck is a Fortitude pool-gain deck.) > Unfortunately, once I developed some sense, my playgroup had dissolved. >Need more players... We play all kinds of decks... we just try to stay away from stealth bleed, because, as you say, the *ultimate* counter to s/b is rush, and it really sucks limiting yourself to playing one deck type all the time to counter someone elses deck... and it tended that if you were trying some other concept, you'd get hosed before you could work it out cause you had no decent stealth-bleed counter, and no time to figure one out... ya know, I don't think that paragraph made a lot of sense... my point was supposed to be that we try to avoid decks that are not fun, and we weren't having as much fun playing s/b as we were not playing s/b. I do get the feeling, however, that if someone in our group were to play anyone outside our group, we'd pretty much all get hosed pretty quick. Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

In article <3671a103...@news.mindspring.com>, wp...@mindspring.com wrote: > xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: > [snip me suggesting articles] > I read all those articles 'bout a year ago, the last time I frequented the ng's... > I seem to recall having been involved in several lengthy and heated debates > on the merits of 4CL vs No-CL... but that's neither here nor there, we play > mostly 4CL... you don't have to follow it, but most of us do unless we have > a nifty concept to use.... and besides, I only own 5 raptors, so making > a 4CL raptor (more a just gangrel-intercept deck, truly...) deck isn't > too far from my No-CL deck would be... What? You haven't traded your ass off to acquire many many copies of a card that's only *really* useful for this one concept? Oh. Whoops. Hehe. I forgot that not everyone is insane like *me*. (Though did Legbiter ever acquire all those vampires IRL? I'm scared of that deck in JOL84...) Yes, I did trade for waaay too many Raptors. But they're funny! [snip my comments re my playgroup & my whining about the Gangrel] > > We play all kinds of decks... we just try to stay away from stealth bleed, > because, as you say, the *ultimate* counter to s/b is rush, and it really > sucks limiting yourself to playing one deck type all the time to counter > someone elses deck... and it tended that if you were trying some other Hmm...I don't have lots of experience with throwing a big monkeywrench into the metagame, but from what I've picked up from everyone else, you only have to play the big baddie for a couple of games before people either start ganging up on you or change their decks. I'm a *big* fan of making people switch decks & then changing to something even more annoying as soon as they do. I like messing with their heads... > concept, you'd get hosed before you could work it out cause you had > no decent stealth-bleed counter, and no time to figure one out... Hmm...I would think if you played <plug> Tremere, you would (even under 4CL) have access to Deflection, Telepatic Misdirection, and perhaps Redirection from Sabbat. Which also hoses Obf/Dom S&B </plug>. I realize these comments are by-and-large moot, as you mention that your group has stopped playing this way, but I kinda sense a kindred spirit here, as for a long time, I was locked into playing one deck type before I (as I mentioned) evolved my deck design skills. > ya know, I don't think that paragraph made a lot of sense... my point > was supposed to be that we try to avoid decks that are not fun, and > we weren't having as much fun playing s/b as we were not playing s/b. Having fun!?!?!?! This isn't about having fun!! This is about winning!! Hehe. Okay...check that. Hehehe. Kidding. *Very* kidding. I'm one of the biggest proponents of fun. I think I've only swept the table once, and that was cause I had a S&B prey who was nowhere near prepared for my Pot/Tha rush deck. > I do get the feeling, however, that if someone in our group were to play > anyone outside our group, we'd pretty much all get hosed pretty quick. Well, I don't know about outside your group in general, but there are a few *good* players on here. I'm feeling better about my playing skills recently (though JOL84 isn't helping at all...I'm chalking that up to poor deck design...), but I think this newsgroup can tend to induce inferiority complexes in almost any player, cause as far as I can tell, mainly the big-time players are regulars on the newsgroup, and most of what's said is fairly sound strategy. As opposed to some of the other sci newsgroups I'm on where people babble on endlessly about stuff they know nothing about. Which reminds me that I need to go the GenCon this year and hope there's Jyhad or something can get informally organized, cause I want to meet & play with all you crazies who go... But don't worry about the quality of players within your group versus outside. And if you start playing other people, it'll help. In almost any game, new ideas & play styles help you learn. Still...play/design isn't everything. I'm very entertained that I was talking with someone recently who actually (first-hand) won a game against players with constructed decks by randomly grabbing some vampires & some cards from a friend's collection. I mean, we've all *heard* stories like this, but getting to say that it's someone I've talked to is much cooler than, "Oh yeah, I heard this story about some guy who..." Xian, rambling on about not much.... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3671a008...@news.mindspring.com>, William Pyle <wp...@mindspring.com> writes >I know that... there's tons more stealth than intercept if you're >limiting yourself to 4 cards... my main point was that we moved >away from stealth-bleed, that's all... Which then means a card limit is completely unnecessary. It is supposed to be a balancing factor, in other people's opinions, yet it is still necessary to have gentlemen's agreements to move away from it. Under NCL, this is less necessary. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: 8< >What? You haven't traded your ass off to acquire many many copies of a card >that's only *really* useful for this one concept? Oh. Whoops. Hehe. I >forgot that not everyone is insane like *me*. (Though did Legbiter ever >acquire all those vampires IRL? I'm scared of that deck in JOL84...) Yes, I >did trade for waaay too many Raptors. But they're funny! I dont' really have anyone to trade with, I guess... except the folks in my group, and since we play 4CL, I've pretty much got that many of everything ('cept like, the Tomb, and certain Sabbat cards...) but for the most part we can cover our card needs amongst ourselves... 9< >Hmm...I don't have lots of experience with throwing a big monkeywrench into >the metagame, but from what I've picked up from everyone else, you only have >to play the big baddie for a couple of games before people either start >ganging up on you or change their decks. I'm a *big* fan of making people >switch decks & then changing to something even more annoying as soon as they >do. I like messing with their heads... 8< >Hmm...I would think if you played <plug> Tremere, you would (even under 4CL) >have access to Deflection, Telepatic Misdirection, and perhaps Redirection >from Sabbat. Which also hoses Obf/Dom S&B </plug>. I realize these comments >are by-and-large moot, as you mention that your group has stopped playing >this way, but I kinda sense a kindred spirit here, as for a long time, I was >locked into playing one deck type before I (as I mentioned) evolved my deck >design skills. heh... in fact, I think one of my larger successes was probably my first Tha/For deck... probly won 3 or 4 in a row... then, when people switched tactics to beat that I went to a gangrel voting deck, I believe... definitely good to keep switching tactics, but I'm kinda running short on deck ideas, especially those that might have a chance under 4CL.... we've talked about going to NL, and no one seems to mind, but it's kinda habit these days... but I DO need to come up with some new ideas after I test the 2 decks I've got (that 4CL raptor/intercept deck and a obf/pre camarilla-only bloodgain/vote deck (wihch looks to be great fun if I can get it going, min crypt 35, max 44, kinda huge...)) so any new fun and exciting ideas out there to share?? Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)

In article <36744ff8...@news.mindspring.com>, wp...@mindspring.com wrote: > I dont' really have anyone to trade with, I guess... except the folks in You can always post to the group...speaking of which, I'm *still* looking for one measly Mind Rape (hehe...) and a Hidden Pathways. After I acquire those, I'll be satisfied...for now...as my little collection will be complete... > my group, and since we play 4CL, I've pretty much got that many > of everything ('cept like, the Tomb, and certain Sabbat cards...) > but for the most part we can cover our card needs amongst ourselves... Heh. 4 copies of the Tomb...evil... > heh... in fact, I think one of my larger successes was probably my first Tha/For > deck... probly won 3 or 4 in a row... then, when people switched tactics to > beat that I went to a gangrel voting deck, I believe... Played Tha/For last night...couldn't beat the Toreador vote deck that drew *all* of its Minion Taps & 5th Trads right after I ousted the 2 players between him & me. Soooo close... > definitely good to keep switching tactics, but I'm kinda running short > on deck ideas, especially those that might have a chance under 4CL.... > we've talked about going to NL, and no one seems to mind, but it's > kinda habit these days... but I DO need to come up with some new > ideas after I test the 2 decks I've got (that 4CL raptor/intercept deck > and a obf/pre camarilla-only bloodgain/vote deck (wihch looks to be > great fun if I can get it going, min crypt 35, max 44, kinda huge...)) > > so any new fun and exciting ideas out there to share?? Hmm...not really for 4CL. Most of the decks I design these days are somewhat *cough* off-the-wall, and would have lots of trouble working under 4CL. I like the Obf/Pre idea...not too hard to do as 4CL, but yeah, the crypt sucks. I'd throw in a few Setites and a few Invitation Accepted myself, but...that's your call. Damn, haven't had time to work on that promised deck to showcase Yong-Sun and an as yet unmentioned card...will post it soon. Hmm...my Tha/For deck would not work well under 4CL, as I'd run out of Dawn Operations waaay too fast. Mmm...Scouting Mission + Threats + Dawn Op + Skin of Night + Soul Burn. Weather Control would work great too, I know...and it would have saved me from that one Rotschreck. Hmm... I don't know. It seems to me that the only really effective 4CL decks are either "a little bit of everything" decks, or stealth & bleed, or vote decks. I saw an interesting Corruption/Necromancy deck last night, but it got bled out before it got going...recycle the Corruptions with Carlotta, Clan Impersonated Setites...not a bad concept, and about the only way to work Corruption under 4CL, but icky slow. (A couple of the players last night were thinking Jyhad has always been 4CL, a couple of us arrived later & had no clue they were playing 4CL until about halfway through the game, but no one bitched too much...) So...nothing exciting for 4CL...you *could* try a Brujah Pitch deck, but it's hard to pull off...4 Bum's Rush, 4 Ambush, 4 Haven Uncovered, 4 Flash, 4 Blur, 4 Thrown Sewer Lid, 4 Thrown Gate, 4 Sacrament of Carnage...you get the idea...I suppose you could put a couple of Sport Bikes in, but that's one thing I don't like about 4C (sorry if I'm going off...)...it seems like you run out of cards to put in, so you by default end up putting in either intercept or votes. Yeah, you can get screwed pretty hard if you don't come up with any votes in some games, but other times, if you don't want to pay for them, you shouldn't have to. Whoa...okay...that's it for now...new decks later... Xian [ quoted text not captured ]

> You can always post to the group...speaking of which, I'm *still* looking for > one measly Mind Rape (hehe...) and a Hidden Pathways. After I acquire those, > I'll be satisfied...for now...as my little collection will be complete... *nods* I've got about a half-dozen of them at least. I'm pretty sure I have a complete collection, but I really haven't sat down to figure it out. What I need is multiple copies of certain cards to pull off some different decks. I've got a Masquerade Enforcement/Banishment deck in the works that has me using some unusual cards...namely Cairo Airport and Ravnos Acceptance. Lazar (the 3 cap Ravnos) has a great ability to be used with a Banishment deck and since it's a voting deck, I might as well give him some Presence and make him a Prince. I've also tossed in 6 Camarilla Threat cards as well. You'd be surprised how well that vote works when multiples are in play. > > my group, and since we play 4CL, I've pretty much got that many > > of everything ('cept like, the Tomb, and certain Sabbat cards...) > > but for the most part we can cover our card needs amongst ourselves... > > Heh. 4 copies of the Tomb...evil... I'm kinda partial to Dreams of the Sphinx, myself. > > definitely good to keep switching tactics, but I'm kinda running short > > on deck ideas, especially those that might have a chance under 4CL.... > > so any new fun and exciting ideas out there to share?? I usually play with a 6CL, myself....but voting comes to mind. Contrary to popular opinion, you can make a very effective voting deck without 25 CA and KRC votes. In fact, I can make a good voting deck with a 2CL. Gangrel combat can be done (4 x Claws of the Dead, Wolf Claws, Bone Spur) pretty easily. I imagine a Tzimisce Bauble deck would work okay....although mine is a 6CL. *digs through saved decks* Oh! Here's a dom-cel-pot 4CL deck that does failry well at covering all the bases. It's got some bleed (which I mainly use to get out younger vampires) some combat and some votes. It's not going to win tournaments, but it's a fun deck. You should have no problem tuning it to taste. Noal -Crypt (12) Angelica, Canonicus-Lasombra-10 cap-DOM POT cel-Cardinal Constanza Vinti-Brujah-8 cap-CEL POT DOM-Prince of Rome Donal O'Connor-Brujah-8 cap-CEL POT DOM-Prince of Dublin Carlotta Giovanni-Giovanni-7 cap-POT dom Anvil-Brujah-6 cap-dom CEL POT-Primogen Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro-Malkavian-6 cap-DOM cel pot Lisette Vizquel-Lasombra-6 cap-POT DOM-Bishop Volker, Puppet Prince-Brujah-5 cap-CEL pot-Prince of Frankfurt Ignacio, The Black Priest-Lasombra-4 cap-pot dom Jimmy Dunn-Pander-4 cap-POT CEL Cameron-Lasombra-3 cap-dom pot Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn-Brujah-3 cap-cel pot -Master Cards (20) Carthage Remembered-Master-Brujah-1 pool (x2) Celerity (x2) Dominate Elysium: The Palace of Versaille Fear of Mekhet Giant's Blood Legendary Vampire (4x) Minion Tap (2x) Political Seizure (2x) Potence Powerbase: Chicago Power Structure Society of Leopold -Equipment and Retainers (2) Camarilla Vitae Slave Lyndhurst Estate, New York -Actions (19) (2x) Clan Impersonation Distraction Dominate Kine (3x) The Fifth Tradition: Hospitality (4x) Govern The Unaligned-Action (2x) Political Struggle (4x) Scouting Mission (2x) Thanks for the Donation -Reactions (9) Cardinal Sin: Insubordination (4x) Deflection-Reaction (4x) The Second Tradition: Domain -Combat (20) Blur (2x) Burning Wrath (2x) Decapitate (2x) Disarm (2x) Flash (3x) Immortal Grapple (2x) Lightning Reflexes (2x) Sacrament of Carnage (4x) Sideslip -Political Actions (20) (2x) Anathema Ancient Influence Archon Brujah Justicar Cardinal Benediction (2x) Conservative Agitation Crusade: Detroit Crusade: Pittsburgh Investiture (3x) Kine Resources Contested Parity Shift Praxis Seizure: Cairo Praxis Seizure: Stockholm (2x) Praxis Solomon -- "DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors." -Ambrose Bierce. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- [ quoted text not captured ]

xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: 8< >You can always post to the group...speaking of which, I'm *still* looking for >one measly Mind Rape (hehe...) and a Hidden Pathways. After I acquire those, >I'll be satisfied...for now...as my little collection will be complete... I've only got one mind rape and 2 hidden pathways... I'm thinking of trying to convince my group to go in on an order for some sabbat boxes... it'll probably work, so maybe I'll have a mind rape or a pathways for ya... I do belive I'm becoming disillusioned with 4CL... it had its place before, but I'm fairly certain I've played just about every reasonable 4CL deck out there.... I'm sure there's someone out there with some twisted ideas <eye xian> that haven't found their way into my degenerate brain, but probly not that many... for things like corruption, we tend to overlook 4CL... I mean, 4 corruptions and a nickel will get you a hot cup of JACK SQUAT, and we all realize that... but I mean, 4 raptors, that could still be kinda useful... not as useful as, oh, say 7 raptors, but still useful... so perhaps we'll see if I can't convince everyone to go back to NL.... I mean, we started off that way, but one of our buddies who went to Drexel came back and was playing 4CL so we gave it a try, and it just kinda stuck... >I don't know. It seems to me that the only really effective 4CL decks are >either "a little bit of everything" decks, or stealth & bleed, or vote decks. > I saw an interesting Corruption/Necromancy deck last night, but it got bled >out before it got going...recycle the Corruptions with Carlotta, Clan >Impersonated Setites...not a bad concept, and about the only way to work >Corruption under 4CL, but icky slow. (A couple of the players last night >were thinking Jyhad has always been 4CL, a couple of us arrived later & had >no clue they were playing 4CL until about halfway through the game, but no >one bitched too much...) yeah, I've noticed that most of our decks tend to have a little of everything in em these days... Bill Pyle (wp...@mindspring.com)