Getting confused about the relationship between votes and titles - please help!

i was interested to read the thread about votes and titles. If i've followed it correctly then: All Independent vampires whose cards say "... has x votes" are actually titled. Is that right? Here are the bits that confuse me: Is a vampire who becomes Legendary but has no other votes titled, or not? [i really have NO idea about this one] Once the Legacy of Pander is in play, are all Panders titled, or not? [i'ld guess they are] What about vampires who have conditional votes if they burn blood, like that giovanni bloke, or anybody with Lyndhurst estate NY - are they titled, or not? [i'ld guess they aren't] Thanks in advance for any help!

In message <68f2e9f8.01071...@posting.google.com>, legbiter <legb...@my-deja.com> writes >i was interested to read the thread about votes and titles. If i've >followed it correctly then: > >All Independent vampires whose cards say "... has x votes" are >actually titled. Is that right? yes. [6.3.3] [6.3.4] (The only >Is a vampire who becomes Legendary but has no other votes titled, or >not? [i really have NO idea about this one] No. >Once the Legacy of Pander is in play, are all Panders titled, or not? No. >What about vampires who have conditional votes if they burn blood, >like that giovanni bloke, Stefano. No, his card text doesn't have permanent votes, it has an ability to gain some. It's only the vampires with permanent votes who count. > or anybody with Lyndhurst estate NY - are >they titled, or not? [i'ld guess they aren't] No. How to work it out: Does this vampire have a title on their card which they haven't lost? Yes: They have a title. Does this vampire have a permanent number of votes on their card which they haven't lost? Yes: They have a title. Has this vampire been granted a title, by specific card text (e.g. Ventrue Justicar) Yes: They have a title. You need vampire card text of title or permanent votes, or library text granting a title, for it to count. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F She twirled a lock of hair around her forefinger and smiled B457CA213D7E6 faintly. "Actually, I'd settle for a small Greek." 68C3695D623D5D

In message <UCoV9NaW...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes >In message <68f2e9f8.01071...@posting.google.com>, legbiter ><legb...@my-deja.com> writes >>i was interested to read the thread about votes and titles. If i've >>followed it correctly then: >> >>All Independent vampires whose cards say "... has x votes" are >>actually titled. Is that right? > >yes. [6.3.3] [6.3.4] (The only (The only text relating to his to allow this.) [ quoted text not captured ]

legb...@my-deja.com (legbiter) wrote: >i was interested to read the thread about votes and titles. If i've >followed it correctly then: > >All Independent vampires whose cards say "... has x votes" are >actually titled. Is that right? [6.3.4] says so, as per the thread you've followed. >Here are the bits that confuse me: > >Is a vampire who becomes Legendary but has no other votes titled, or >not? [i really have NO idea about this one] No, as per the thread. The exhaustive list: Titled: Printed with a title, independent printed with "has votes", or per card text. >Once the Legacy of Pander is in play, are all Panders titled, or not? >[i'ld guess they are] Not. >What about vampires who have conditional votes if they burn blood, >like that giovanni bloke, or anybody with Lyndhurst estate NY - are >they titled, or not? [i'ld guess they aren't] Not. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com

>How to work it out: > >Does this vampire have a title on their card which they haven't lost? > Yes: They have a title. >Does this vampire have a permanent number of votes on their card which > they haven't lost? AND >You need vampire card text of title or permanent votes, or library text >granting a title, for it to count. While I completely understand the whole "Independent with votes = title" thing (and I actually agree with it and don't mind it), I do think it's a bit confusing when one keeps referring to "permanent votes," "card text" and such. Although it's not a problem right now, future problems might occur dealing with vampires such as Genevieve and Gratiano, who each have additional votes (Gene has a normal, Gratiano has a Priscus one) by card text which is independent of the title. So...if there was some new equipment card making the bearer Independent, and Genevieve and/or Gratiano had it, would they be titled? They would be Independent, and would have vampire card text giving them permanent votes so...? Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: >While I completely understand the whole "Independent with votes = title" thing >(and I actually agree with it and don't mind it), I do think it's a bit >confusing when one keeps referring to "permanent votes," "card text" and such. Could be. Try the verbage in [6.3.4]. That should make the idea clear. >Although it's not a problem right now, future problems might occur dealing with >vampires such as Genevieve and Gratiano, who each have additional votes (Gene >has a normal, Gratiano has a Priscus one) by card text which is independent of >the title. > >So...if there was some new equipment card making the bearer Independent, and >Genevieve and/or Gratiano had it, would they be titled? They would be >Independent, and would have vampire card text giving them permanent votes >so...? Genevieve *is* titled. Gratiano *is* titled. (card text) [ quoted text not captured ]

> >So...if there was some new equipment card making the bearer Independent, and > >Genevieve and/or Gratiano had it, would they be titled? They would be > >Independent, and would have vampire card text giving them permanent votes > >so...? > Genevieve *is* titled. Gratiano *is* titled. (card text) Right, but wouldn't they lose their Priscus title when they become Independant? By nature of changing sects (ie if a Ventrue prince Clan Impersonates a !Ventrue, they lose their Cam title because they are now Sabbat)? And since they have an extra vote (card text), would they still be considered titled? I think this is the question/issue that Halcyan was trying to address... Sorrow --- "Happiness sucks" -me

[ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, that was my question. Thanks Chris. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010719081347...@ng-fe1.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] No one still thinks it would be easier to just make all vampires with votes titled? Or just ignore independents and only make Named vampires 'titled.' Save lots of confusion and trouble. = / Aaron

>===== Original Message From "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> ===== >> >So...if there was some new equipment card making the bearer Independent, >and >> >Genevieve and/or Gratiano had it, would they be titled? They would be >> >Independent, and would have vampire card text giving them permanent votes >> >so...? >> Genevieve *is* titled. Gratiano *is* titled. (card text) > >Right, but wouldn't they lose their Priscus title when they become >Independant? By nature of changing sects (ie if a Ventrue prince [10] says he loses the benefit of the title, yes. >Clan Impersonates a !Ventrue, they lose their Cam title because they >are now Sabbat)? And since they have an extra vote (card text), >would they still be considered titled? No. I think [6.3.4] is clear on what the rule is. The independent vampires that start with votes listed on their cards are titled. Gratiano is printed as an independent vampire. Also a vampire cannot have two titles, so the extra vote can clearly not be a title. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote: >>===== Original Message From "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> ===== >>> >So...if there was some new equipment card making the bearer Independent, >>and >>> >Genevieve and/or Gratiano had it, would they be titled? They would be >>> >Independent, and would have vampire card text giving them permanent votes >>> >so...? >>> Genevieve *is* titled. Gratiano *is* titled. (card text) >> >>Right, but wouldn't they lose their Priscus title when they become >>Independant? By nature of changing sects (ie if a Ventrue prince > >[10] says he loses the benefit of the title, yes. > >>Clan Impersonates a !Ventrue, they lose their Cam title because they >>are now Sabbat)? And since they have an extra vote (card text), >>would they still be considered titled? > >No. > >I think [6.3.4] is clear on what the rule is. >The independent vampires that start with votes listed on their cards >are titled. Gratiano is printed as an independent vampire. Missed a "not" in that sentence, obviously. Sorry for that. [ quoted text not captured ]

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20010719034244...@ng-fq1.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] It wouldn't affect Gratiano, since the Prisci referendum is not a vote per se. Therefore if he is and independant, he no longer is involved in the Prisci vote, so has not vote at all. I guess. Genevieve on the other hand has a fixed vote. As such, I guess she is titled in her own right. I heard somewhere that a vampire that Clan Impersonates to a different sect still keeps their votes and title, but cannot use them whilst "impersonating". This means that if they burn the imp, they get their old jobs back, votes and all. Is this correct? If so, are they still titled whilst impersonating? DH > Halcyan 2

[ quoted text not captured ] Would they still be able to use their extra vote in the Prisci sub-referendum, as the rules state that only Prisci vote in the Prisci sub-referendum, and if they have lost their title if they are no longer Sabbat, then surely they wouldn't be able to vote. Andy Setite Ruler of Cambridge -- Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outragous fortune, or get fat on chocolate cake, eat the cake, life is too short to worry!

Andy Brown wrote: > [Re: If Gratiano and Genevieve become Independent] > Would they still be able to use their extra vote in the Prisci > sub-referendum, as the rules state that only Prisci vote in the Prisci > sub-referendum, and if they have lost their title if they are no > longer Sabbat, then surely they wouldn't be able to vote. Gratiano would, yes. Genevieve's extra vote is a main-referendum vote. [ quoted text not captured ]

> No one still thinks it would be easier to just make all vampires with votes > titled? Or just ignore independents and only make Named vampires 'titled.' > Save lots of confusion and trouble. =/ Well, except for National Guard Support: "Called by any titled vampire at +1 stealth..." which was released in Final Nights, and obviously intended to be playable by the titled independents. However, consider: Bob, generic Independent vampire X-cap ran DOM ski LLS "Independent. Bob has N vote(s)." EVERY titled independent vampire is titled in this manner. Not unlike "Sabbat Cardinal." or "Camarilla Primogen." at the start of the card text. Extremely simple litmus test to use. Saves lots of confusion and trouble. If you prefer, think of "Bob has 1 vote." as a title worth 1 vote, and "Bob has 2 votes." as a title worth 2 votes. After that, the only way to get a title is to play a card that gives you a named title. That's it. Done. If you WANT to make it hard and confusing to distinguish, you can ask about this and that and the other, but if you're actually interested in remembering, it only takes two simple rules, which are probably easier to remember than whether or not you can play another bleed modifier after your Conditioning has been DI'd. But, there are things you just have to remember to play by the rules. Whether or not a vampire is titled is one of the easier ones. (I seem to recall all of this having been said before, but since people are still having trouble with it...) -- Pat Ricochet See Dick hit on the con chicks. Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta See Dick get shot down in flames. Shoot, shoot, flames. Dick is a fanboy.

In message <3B60...@MailAndNews.com>, LSJ <vte...@MailAndNews.com> writes >No, as per the thread. The exhaustive list: >Titled: Printed with a title, independent printed with "has votes", or >per card text. [6.3.3] suggests that, in theory, the printed "has votes" could apply to a Camarilla/Sabbat vampire too. (Top of page 32.) (Though you have already addressed the issue by stating that none would be printed.) [ quoted text not captured ]

dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message > I heard somewhere that a vampire that Clan Impersonates to a different > sect still keeps their votes and title, but cannot use them whilst > "impersonating". This means that if they burn the imp, they get their > old jobs back, votes and all. Is this correct? i beleive the phrase in the rulebook is "loses the benfit of the title". Therefore, they still have the title, but they can't do anything with it. But if they get a new title they lose their old one, and if their title is contested while the have no benefit from their current title, they must yield. What i'd like to know is, do they lose the DRAWBACKS of having the title? For example, Sir Walter goes Deranged by his predator, making him !Malk. so he loses the benefit of his prince title. no 2nd trad for him, no 5th trad, no 2 votes, etc. He then goes and bleeds his prey, who controls a Ravnos. During his prey's master phase, they want to play a "The Treatment" on Sir Walter. Is this allowed? Also, if Calebros The Martyr changes sects, thus losing the benefit of his title, but not actually losing the title, can older Cam vampires still steal it off him? ta, salem.

In message <9e10847c.01071...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa <dave...@hotmail.com> writes >> So...if there was some new equipment card making the bearer Independent, and >> Genevieve and/or Gratiano had it, would they be titled? They would be >> Independent, and would have vampire card text giving them permanent votes >> so...? > >It wouldn't affect Gratiano, since the Prisci referendum is not a vote >per se. Therefore if he is and independant, he no longer is involved >in the Prisci vote, so has not vote at all. He has card text granting him a vote in the Prisci vote. He would no longer be a Priscus, but he would still have the card text allowing him a vote. > I guess. > >Genevieve on the other hand has a fixed vote. As such, I guess she is >titled in her own right. No. As LSJ has already pointed out, this would involve her having two titles at once, which cannot be true. The intent, per [6.3.4] is to allow vampires who are independent vampires by card text to have a title. [6.3.3] makes this slightly more ambiguous, but the fact that, in these instances, they would have to have two titles makes it clear that the card text is not a title. >I heard somewhere that a vampire that Clan Impersonates to a different >sect still keeps their votes and title, but cannot use them whilst >"impersonating". True. Section [10] of the rules book. >This means that if they burn the imp, they get their >old jobs back, votes and all. If: - no-one else has contested their title (which the CIed vampire would immediately yield) - the CIed vampire had not been granted another title appropriate to their "pretend" clan/sect (thus yielding their dormant title) they can get it back. >If so, are they still titled whilst impersonating? No. Being titled is a benefit. (For playing Free States Rant etc.) Section [10] makes it clear he loses the benefit. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "Surely somewhere out there there's a woman who's EBD690ECD7A1F been sodomized by her father and is capable of B457CA213D7E6 composing a few coherent sentences on the subject." 68C3695D623D5D

In message <a36647e2.01071...@posting.google.com>, salem christ <salem_...@my-deja.com> writes >For example, Sir Walter goes Deranged by his predator, making him >!Malk. so he loses the benefit of his prince title. no 2nd trad for >him, no 5th trad, no 2 votes, etc. >He then goes and bleeds his prey, who controls a Ravnos. >During his prey's master phase, they want to play a "The Treatment" on >Sir Walter. Is this allowed? Per the restrictions thing with Seeds of Corruption, I'd say no. Remember, in the right situation that could be a Good Thing. Maybe. Noal, Legbiter and Xian will probably do odd things. >Also, if Calebros The Martyr changes sects, thus losing the benefit of >his title, but not actually losing the title, can older Cam vampires >still steal it off him? He's not considered the Prince of New York when non-Camarilla. (First clause of card text.) The title still lingers ready for: - a potential contesting (where he immediately yields it) - going back to the relevant sect/clan But the vampire isn't titled for effects. (Unless such an effect were to say something like: "(D) Enter combat with a vampire who has a title which has been rendered dormant by changing to an inappropriate clan/sect" - but odd card texts like that always do things outside the rules.) Having the title is a benefit - sometimes a dubious one. You lose all benefits, dubious or otherwise, when changing to an inappropriate clan/sect. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:8fsP6E1K...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... [title weirdness, Sir Walter Nash, The Treatment] > Per the restrictions thing with Seeds of Corruption, I'd say no. > > Remember, in the right situation that could be a Good Thing. Maybe. > Noal, Legbiter and Xian will probably do odd things. Oh, you're no fun... I had already started planning a "The Treatment" deck. :) It revolved around getting princes out, selling them to my predator with the Succubus Club, waiting until they bled, hitting them with The Treatment, and then Graverobbing him back. I forgot where I put the Deranges. Or not. [Calebros] I'm not the only one that's thought of putting a Secure Haven on him, am I? Actually, I suspect most of you have already, but I haven't actually seen it played yet, so I was wondering... Xian