Cost of Card Slot in Player Hand

That "other" sorta longish thread about errata got me thinking about what I consider an extra card slot to be worth, say in terms of pool. Getting started, lets consider Elder Library: 1 Extra Card Slot, 1 Pool, Lasting as long as you are in the game. The variable here, of course, is how long you will be in the game... IIRC Robert Goudie did a survey of the LA Tourney scene and found that games lasted about six turns for each player. I'm going to be a little more generous and presume that each player gets ten turns. That would make the card slot from Elder Library worth 1/10 of a pool per turn. Now, Dreams of the Sphinx: 2 Extra Card Slots, 1 Pool, Not more than three turns total. The difference here is that You only get the hand size bonus during the current turn, meaning that I've got to depreciate the pool value of "per turn" which I just used to mean "from turn to turn". Simple math comes to 1/6 of a pool, which I'll half to 1/12 of a pool per turn. The exact number is debatable, but I think anything between 1/6 - 1/12 is a fair number to quote. From this we can calculate the amount of pool it costs to play Aggressive Tactics - 2 Pool, 1 Card Slot, (D) Burnable. I've never played with the card so I don't know how long the card sticks around, but I'd guess it's high on the "Things to burn" list. The cost of -just- playing the card would be pool cost minus benefit. Which if burned after one turn is 2 - (~1/10) or 1 and 9/10 pool. If burned after three turns is 2/3 - (~1/10) or ~4/7 pool per turn. At 20 turns the card is free given the benefit you have received, but the game isn't likely to last that long. Feel free to comment. What do you think an extra card slot is worth? I don't think this has anything much to do with that other thread because blood is more useful on vampires than it is sitting in your blood pool. (or else you wouldn't influence them) Thanks, Rob Grau rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu Yet again the news server has eaten my post, haven't seen it in 13 hours so I'm going this route. *sigh* Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu wrote: > That "other" sorta longish thread about errata got me thinking about > what I consider an extra card slot to be worth, say in terms of pool. > > Getting started, lets consider Elder Library: > > 1 Extra Card Slot, 1 Pool, Lasting as long as you are in the game. > > The variable here, of course, is how long you will be in the game... > IIRC Robert Goudie did a survey of the LA Tourney scene and found that > games lasted about six turns for each player. I'm going to be a little > more generous and presume that each player gets ten turns. That would > make the card slot from Elder Library worth 1/10 of a pool per turn. Assuming you get to play it on your first turn. Statistically, it would be worth a bit less (75% - 66%, I'd guess) in practice. (50% if it were played during any of the 10 turns with equal probability - but that isn't the case). It's cost is also increased by: 1 Master Phase Action (and is increased *very* slightly by both uniqueness and being a location). > Now, Dreams of the Sphinx: > > 2 Extra Card Slots, 1 Pool, Not more than three turns total. > > The difference here is that You only get the hand size bonus during the > current turn, meaning that I've got to depreciate the pool value of "per > turn" which I just used to mean "from turn to turn". Simple math comes > to 1/6 of a pool, which I'll half to 1/12 of a pool per turn. > > The exact number is debatable, but I think anything between 1/6 - 1/12 > is a fair number to quote. The effect is greater than the card slots. Dreams can also be used to recoup the pool cost (on the same turn, even) via transfers, or (on a subsequent turn) via the Edge. And, when used for the transfer, it also allows you to control a vampire more quickly. Flexibility itself increases the "power" of this card. And, as above, the cost is more than just the pool: it costs a Master Phase Action (and is unique). > From this we can calculate the amount of pool it costs to play > Aggressive Tactics - 2 Pool, 1 Card Slot, (D) Burnable. I've never > played with the card so I don't know how long the card sticks around, > but I'd guess it's high on the "Things to burn" list. > > The cost of -just- playing the card would be pool cost minus benefit. Again: plus the Master Phase Action. > Which if burned after one turn is 2 - (~1/10) or 1 and 9/10 pool. > If burned after three turns is 2/3 - (~1/10) or ~4/7 pool per turn. > At 20 turns the card is free given the benefit you have received, but > the game isn't likely to last that long. > > Feel free to comment. What do you think an extra card slot is worth? > > I don't think this has anything much to do with that other thread > because blood is more useful on vampires than it is sitting in your > blood pool. (or else you wouldn't influence them) I think that that's overstating things a good deal. Having a vampire out (and full, temorarily) rather than uncontrolled is worth a corresponding reduction in your pool. Once he's controlled, however, he has many more options (and easier options) for gaining blood (not from your pool) than you have for gaining pool (not from a vampire). Not to mention the fact that he is still pretty valuable even when his blood is reduced. Hence the popularity of Blood Doll - used mainly to increase your pool at the expense of your vampire's blood and only infrequently the other way around. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | 'I know' is just http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | 'I believe' with Graphics Specialist and V:TES Rulemonger | delusions of grandeur.

In article <85ji9e$5f2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu writes >From this we can calculate the amount of pool it costs to play >Aggressive Tactics - 2 Pool, 1 Card Slot, (D) Burnable. I've never >played with the card so I don't know how long the card sticks around, >but I'd guess it's high on the "Things to burn" list. It's annoying, and not something you can easily plan for. However, if you're low on minions, it's not that much of a bother really. Of course, YMMV based on how many cards you want to see at once - e.g. the Hey Hey It's Marty Lechtansi deck worked best if it could see a hand of 7 before starting an action. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk

Yes, the best ways to add/remove cards from player's hands are all master phase actions, and that's probably what is going to make it impossible to really quantify the "cost in pool" of the card slot in the hand. In the game we don't fret over the exact opportunity cost of a master action, but you're right it clearly figures into my pool cost per turn item. Anybody have some sense of appropriate opportuntity cost for a master phase action? (ie how much is the next best action worth in terms of pool?) "L. Scott Johnson" wrote: rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu wrote: > > Elder Library: > > > > 1 Extra Card Slot, 1 Pool, Lasting as long as you are in the game. > > > > The variable here, of course, is how long you will be in the game... > > IIRC Robert Goudie did a survey of the LA Tourney scene and found that > > games lasted about six turns for each player. I'm going to be a little > > more generous and presume that each player gets ten turns. That would > > make the card slot from Elder Library worth 1/10 of a pool per turn. > > Assuming you get to play it on your first turn. > Statistically, it would be worth a bit less (75% - 66%, I'd guess) in > practice. (50% if it were played during any of the 10 turns with > equal probability - but that isn't the case). > I'm happy to adjust the figure back to an average of 1/6 or 1/7 of a pool per turn. I knew it would vary a bit. > > It's cost is also increased by: 1 Master Phase Action (and is > increased *very* slightly by both uniqueness and being a location). Noted, but I'm going to ignore the location/uniqueness costs because they're very secondary. > > Now, Dreams of the Sphinx: > > > > 2 Extra Card Slots, 1 Pool, Not more than three turns total. > > > > The difference here is that You only get the hand size bonus during the > > current turn, meaning that I've got to depreciate the pool value of "per > > turn" which I just used to mean "from turn to turn". Simple math comes > > to 1/6 of a pool, which I'll half to 1/12 of a pool per turn. > > > > The exact number is debatable, but I think anything between 1/6 - 1/12 > > is a fair number to quote. > > The effect is greater than the card slots. Dreams can also be used to > recoup the pool cost (on the same turn, even) via transfers, or (on a > subsequent turn) via the Edge. And, when used for the transfer, it also > allows you to control a vampire more quickly. Flexibility itself > increases the "power" of this card. I was impressed at how just using Dreams for the card slots had a comparable cost to Elder Library. I fully expected it to be more expensive to gain cards slots with Dreams. I guess your point about regaining the pool makes my effort to put things in terms of pool look silly. If it were all about gaining pool, few would use Dreams for hand size.... (Another generalized statement to be attacked) > > > I don't think this has anything much to do with that other thread > > because blood is more useful on vampires than it is sitting in your > > blood pool. (or else you wouldn't influence them) > > I think that that's overstating things a good deal. Yes it is an overstatement. I was hasty. Having now given it a little more thought, it has to lie on some principle involving diminishing returns. If you have 30 pool and no vampires, that pool is more valuable on a vampire, decreasingly so with each transfer you make. And with 1 or 2 pool and controlled vampires with blood dolls, it makes no sense to be transferring pool to vamps. (along with the benefit that you pointed out over value of vampires with a decreased number of blood counters). Rob Grau rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

Well, the basic master card is Ascendance, which means one master phase action should, after all effects are considered, gain you one pool. Obviously, not all master cards are created equal, but I'll bet most of them can work out to roughly that. (Hunting Grounds cost two to play, but will gain you over a long period of time - after you've Blood Dolled three of those free vampire blood off, you've gained one pool. I suspect that's a reasonably accurate assessment, too.) On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:37:35 -0500, Rob Grau <rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

L. Scott Johnson wrote in message <387DD286...@math.sc.edu>... >rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu wrote: >> The variable here, of course, is how long you will be in the game... >> IIRC Robert Goudie did a survey of the LA Tourney scene and found that >> games lasted about six turns for each player. I'm going to be a little >> more generous and presume that each player gets ten turns. That would >> make the card slot from Elder Library worth 1/10 of a pool per turn. Actually, IIRC, ten turns each is about what I found to be the norm. -Robert

In article <674E4E6F1A37BF83.E41225FD...@lp.airnew s.net>, Derek S. Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes >(Hunting Grounds cost two >to play, but will gain you over a long period of time - after you've >Blood Dolled three of those free vampire blood off, you've gained one >pool. Of course, that's now *two* master phase actions (the playing of the Hunting Ground and the playing of the Blood Doll) in order to achieve a gain of one pool, over a period of three turns, not forgetting that it makes a vampire slightly more vulnerable by preventing them from being at capacity - though only a little, of course. If you only wanted pool, over those three turns, you could play Ascendance three times and make a three pool profit, if card slots are not an issue (as they would be in, say, a weenie Brujah rush deck). However, the cost of the card slot is, of course, not the only thing to consider. Blood Doll, whilst increasing the "cost" of the Hunting Ground to make a profit, in terms of slots, MPAs etc., provides flexibility in allowing you to put blood *back* on the vampire - useful if you need just an extra blood to force an action through - say, it allows you to afford an Earth Control or a Day Operation, something like that. Using three Ascendances does not give you that option. [ quoted text not captured ]