Challenge: Get Beast into the Camarilla

Well, you can always get him out of !nos by making him a pander(with unacceptable appearance) however then he's still a sabbat vampire, another clanchange but without leaving sabbat is deranging him. The only concievable solution to this challange that I can think off is far fetched and even I doubt its legality, I think we need a ruling from LSJ for this. ;) Possible but doubtable solution: Put seeds of corruption on him(The vampire with this card cannot use his or her special abilities.) but I doubt that his drawback(Beast cannot perform action-card actions or recruit allies. He cannot have or use equipment or retainers.) is considered an ability, but if it is, you put the seeds on him and then clan impersonate him. IF this is possible, then it's still extremely silly, but I can see no other possible way to make him change sect. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- Posted from web2906.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.49] via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

>Well, you can always get him out of !nos by making him >a pander(with unacceptable appearance) however then >he's still a sabbat vampire, another clanchange but >without leaving sabbat is deranging him. The only >concievable solution to this challange that I can >think off is far fetched and even I doubt its >legality, I think we need a ruling from LSJ for this. >;) In addition to making him a Pander, you can also make him a !Malk by using Derange. But you're still stuck as Sabbat. >Possible but doubtable solution: >Put seeds of corruption on him(The vampire with this >card cannot use his or her special abilities.) but I >doubt that his drawback(Beast cannot perform >action-card actions or recruit allies. He cannot have >or use equipment or retainers.) is considered an >ability, but if it is, you put the seeds on him and >then clan impersonate him. You are correct (it is not possible). Seeds of Corruption does not remove any restrictions (i.e. diablerie for Assamites). Thus Beast with a Seeds still cannot take action cards, etc. In addition now he can't use his rush ability either. Halcyan 2

I think I have found a "loophole" about Beast, sort of. Still no way to get him to fly Camarilla colors, but.. Reading through cardlists, I've noticed "[and does not count as equipment while in play]" appended to the descriptions of those equipment cards that become locations. It seems that if you follow Beast's text verbatim, he can actually use these. Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card" action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal. LSJ, am I right?

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes: > Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card" > action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still > doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal. It's an action, so no. Beast, similarly, can't take an action to burn a Haven Uncovered, even if it doesn't have the little icon on it. However, you could move them to him, if moved in an ambiguous manner. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D Standard disclaimers apply to this post. Full written details available upon request. Your statutory rights are not affected.

James Coupe <jr...@srcf.ucam.org> wrote: > Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes: >> Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card" >> action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still >> doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal. > It's an action, so no. Beast, similarly, can't take an action to burn > a Haven Uncovered, even if it doesn't have the little icon on it. I'm afraid you're wrong. Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit [Sabbat, SW] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nosferatu antitribu Capacity: 7 Discipline: OBF POT ani cel Sabbat: Beast cannot perform action-card actions or recruit allies. He cannot have or use equipment or retainers. As a (D) action, Beast may enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah. +1 strength. His text doesn't say anything about barring him from actions in general; he's only specifically banned from "Action-Card" actions, and "Recruit Ally" actions. I'd even read the text to say that he's allowed to Recruit Retainers and Equip Equipment, but they are immediately burned, as he is not "having or using" them until the action is successful. But it seems like burning an uncovered Haven, etc, is perfectly fine. My question concerned performing an Equip action (theoretically legal) to get a Location. Once it is a location, it's not Equipment, and therefore there's nothing specifically stopping him from using it.

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > It seems that if you follow Beast's text verbatim, he can > actually use [locquipment]. Yep. However, the only way that I'm aware of to transfer a "locquipment" from one of your minions to another one of your minions is to play Disputed Territory to move the "locquipment" to another player's control and then play another Disputed Territory to take control back, allowing you to chose the minion to receive it. Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > I think I have found a "loophole" about Beast, sort of. > Still no way to get him to fly Camarilla colors, but.. > > Reading through cardlists, I've noticed "[and does not count > as equipment while in play]" appended to the descriptions of > those equipment cards that become locations. > > It seems that if you follow Beast's text verbatim, he can > actually use these. If he can get them, yes. > Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card" > action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still > doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal. Nah. You have to get it in play first. Beast cannot attempt to get it into play since he cannot have it (the equipment card). A bit (a lot?) spurios, maybe, but it matches the original intent: "Beast cannot equip". -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. ERC Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes: > His text doesn't say anything about barring him from actions in general; > he's only specifically banned from "Action-Card" actions, and "Recruit > Ally" actions. Hmm... is this the text as printed in SW? (I assume it is.) I don't think I've seen one, which explains my problem. > I'd even read the text to say that he's allowed to Recruit > Retainers and Equip Equipment, They are actions, on cards, however. > My question concerned performing an Equip action (theoretically legal) to > get a Location. Once it is a location, it's not Equipment, and therefore > there's nothing specifically stopping him from using it. Certainly. As I say, an ambiguous move of a location from one vampire to another would also suffice. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <jr...@srcf.ucam.org> wrote: > Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes: > > > Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card" > > action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still > > doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal. > > It's an action, so no. Beast, similarly, can't take an action to burn > a Haven Uncovered, even if it doesn't have the little icon on it. An equipment card could be an action card, depending on how you want to look at it (normal reading of the rules would indicate otherwise, as would [RTR 4/18/95]: "equipment cards are not action cards"), but regardless of how you feel about that issue, Beast could take an action to burn Haven Uncovered (or Army of Rats, whatever) - those are not action-card actions under any definition. > However, you could move them to him, if moved in an ambiguous manner. Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> Since equipping them is an "Equip" action and not an "Action Card" >> action, and since they are not Equipment once in play (so he still >> doesn't "have or use equipment"), it seems to be completely legal. > Nah. You have to get it in play first. Beast cannot attempt to > get it into play since he cannot have it (the equipment card). > A bit (a lot?) spurios, maybe, but it matches the original intent: > "Beast cannot equip". Oh well :P I tried :) Suggested Errata: "Beast cannot perform Recruit or Equip actions, and cannot use Action Cards. He may not gain control of any Location, Retainer, or Equipment." He _can_ still perform actions like burning a Haven Uncovered, though, correct? And he can also still use Action Modifiers, Reaction Cards, and Combat Cards, right? Can he use Political Action cards? (I assume no, although he can gain votes). *grumble* I still want to find a way to get him to join the Camarilla ;)

Beast with a vast Wealth on him (it?) can take an action to equip with Loquipments like "Palatial estate", no ? reyda "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message news: 961lcc$kiq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > He _can_ still perform actions like burning a Haven Uncovered, though, > correct? Yes. See elsewhere in this thread. > And he can also still use Action Modifiers, Reaction Cards, and Combat > Cards, right? Sure. > Can he use Political Action cards? (I assume no, although he can gain > votes). No. He can gain votes, sure. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <961l7i$kgp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >Yep. However, the only way that I'm aware of to transfer a "locquipment" >from one of your minions to another one of your minions is to play >Disputed Territory to move the "locquipment" to another player's control >and then play another Disputed Territory to take control back, allowing >you to chose the minion to receive it. Succubus Club would also work, and lets you sweeten the pot by offering payment -- "I'll give you a pool and this here Palatial Estate, and you give me the Palatial Estate back." gomi been thinking about Succubus Club a lot lately -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

> In article <961l7i$kgp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > >> Yep. However, the only way that I'm aware of to transfer a "locquipment" >> from one of your minions to another one of your minions is to play >> Disputed Territory to move the "locquipment" to another player's control >> and then play another Disputed Territory to take control back, allowing >> you to chose the minion to receive it. > > Succubus Club would also work, and lets you sweeten the pot by > offering payment -- "I'll give you a pool and this here Palatial Estate, > and you give me the Palatial Estate back." My personal favorite (not my idea, and not the first to see it, I'm sure,) is ordering your untap phase to borrow a Hunting ground, gain the one blood, and then give it back. (for whatever favor you can get, including both a plea for help and "I'll kill your Prince if you don't let me.) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

>Beast with a vast Wealth on him (it?) can take an action to equip with >Loquipments like "Palatial estate", no ? Actually no. Actions Any action which retrieves an equipment card and says to 'equip' the acting minion with that card is considered an 'equip action'. [TOM 19960130] Vast Wealth - Master Grants the ability to take an action, namely: to search through the Library for an equipment card. [TOM 19950119] This action is considered an "equip" action. [RTR] [RTR 19960124] So since using Vast Wealth is considered equipping, Beast can't do it. I know it's quite surprising. For the longest time I thought Vast Wealth and Magic of the Smith weren't technically considered "equip" actions (mainly for purposes of NRA). But one day, after looking through the rulebook, I guess they are... Hey, at the very least, Idalia and Joaquina just got slightly more useful b/c of their specials... On a sidenote, exactly what is considered to be "retrieving?" #1. Darius Styx's special doesn't have the word "equip" in it, but it could be tacitly implied. Does it count as equipping if he ends up getting an equipment card? If so, what happens if he ends up with some other card? #2. Just to doublecheck, stealing equipment is not considered to be equipping, right? So using Kostantin's special is not equipping? Thanks! Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: > On a sidenote, exactly what is considered to be "retrieving?" > > #1. Darius Styx's special doesn't have the word "equip" in it, but it > could be tacitly implied. Does it count as equipping if he ends up > getting an equipment card? If so, what happens if he ends up with some > other card? No. > #2. Just to doublecheck, stealing equipment is not considered to be > equipping, right? So using Kostantin's special is not equipping? Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

Regarding getting Beast into the Camarilla, what if he, using his basic Celerity, stole a writ of acceptance with fast hands? Would this get the job done? DF

"KingJohann" <kingj...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:20010210000511...@ng-ma1.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Sorry, no... Beast's card text prohibits that. Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit [Sabbat, SW] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nosferatu antitribu Capacity: 7 Discipline: OBF POT ani cel Sabbat: Beast cannot perform action-card actions or recruit allies. He cannot have or use equipment or retainers. As a (D) action, Beast may enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah. +1 strength. -- Hardy Range hardy...@gmx.de

You know, as soon as I wrote that last question, I knew immediately that it wouldn't work... brain fart. Oh well it happens DF

[ quoted text not captured ] No. He can not have or use equipment. Hmmm... But can Beast use "Steal Equipment" strikes as "Destroy Equipment" strikes? (Steal, then be an invalid owner, then it burns) Or can he just not use this type of strike?

In article <U2ch6.3196$H_3.9...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] I would expect that he could not play Fast Hands ( or whatever ) as it is not a valid target ( because he cannot have equipment ) [ quoted text not captured ]

gray...@my-deja.com wrote: > Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > > KingJohann <kingj...@aol.com> wrote: > > > Regarding getting Beast into the Camarilla, > > > > No. He can not have or use equipment. > > > > Hmmm... > > But can Beast use "Steal Equipment" strikes as "Destroy Equipment" > > strikes? (Steal, then be an invalid owner, then it burns) Or can > > he just not use this type of strike? > > I would expect that he could not play Fast Hands ( or whatever ) as it > is not a valid target ( because he cannot have equipment ) Correct. Similarly, Lucian with a Sport Bike cannot attempt to steal his opponent's Hawg. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Pat Ricochet wrote: > My personal favorite (not my idea, and not the first to see it, > I'm sure,) is ordering your untap phase to borrow a Hunting ground, > gain the one blood, and then give it back. (for whatever favor you > can get, including both a plea for help and "I'll kill your Prince if > you don't let me.) Could one do this multiple times with the same HG to gain a blood for each of your vampiers?

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, it's a case for the ruling: 'During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once per phase X. [LSJ 19970625]' And since it's the same Hunting Ground, it seems you couldn't do that any more than you could get all the blood you wanted from a Hunting Ground you actually owned. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] No. The HG uses the "During X, do Y" template. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

Seeds of Corruption then he can perform one action that would let him enter the camarilla. quite stupid i agree but it works i think

[ quoted text not captured ] No.. as mentioned earlier in the thread, penalties are not removed by Seeds of Corruption. If you corrupted him, he'd still not be able to perform most actions, and wouldn't be able to attack either.