Sabbat articles.

I just read the Duelist #14 articles on the Sabbat. I am for one am not very impressed. Besides the concerns about escalation and broken cards, there are other things that bug. 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use almost any skill with any clan. 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper Hand, etc.. 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline is going to have a S:CE. I may be wrong but it is starting to seem like a money making racket. Steve Bucy P.S. For all you Tremere conspiracy believers: Have you noticed the articles in the Duelist all end with the Thamaturgy symbol. Hmmmm...

On 15 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue > with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use > almost any skill with any clan. Yes you might be able to use any skill with any clan but to what extent? The vamp. with the unrelated skill s "usually"(never know whats going to happen with sabbat) are a higher pool than what a sensible person would use in a clan deck of that type. > 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't > need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. > Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper > Hand, etc.. Remember that Sabbat is "suppost" to be "stand alone" except no starts. Therefore just like Ice Age and Mirage from M:tG you need to have certain cards just to function. > 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline > is going to have a S:CE. This is one thing I agree with. Part of deck construction was finding disciplines that were compatable. Now ppl will be getting closer to one discipline decks that neeed no other back up > I may be wrong but it is starting to seem like a money making racket. It is > Steve Bucy Zelf the Worox

Zelf the Worox or LAStH <andb...@prairie.nodak.edu> writes: >On 15 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: >> 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't >> need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. >> Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper >> Hand, etc.. >Remember that Sabbat is "suppost" to be "stand alone" except no starts. >Therefore just like Ice Age and Mirage from M:tG you need to have certain >cards just to function. And you also need a rulebook. Sabbat includes no rulebook, so is therefore *not* a stand-alone product (WotC propaganda notwithstanding). If you have to have VtES (or Jyhad) starters, then you don't need any more of these commons. If you're forced to by other starters in order to play with just the Sabbat cards, are you really going to not play with the cards that came with your rulebook-bearing starter? No, unless paying US$8.95 for a rulebook appeals to you. (Granted, with net access, you do have access to some on-line sources that may offer the rules in various forms, but then you're merely replacing the Sabbat's dependence on VtES starters with a dependence on net access). Screwy marketing drones. Bah. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Hard work has a future payoff. http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Laziness pays off now. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Zelf the Worox or LAStH <andb...@prairie.nodak.edu> wrote: >On 15 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > >> 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue >> with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use >> almost any skill with any clan. > >Yes you might be able to use any skill with any clan but to what extent? >The vamp. with the unrelated skill s "usually"(never know whats going to >happen with sabbat) are a higher pool than what a sensible person would >use in a clan deck of that type. > As you describe it is not a problem. Having 3 or 4 8+ capacity vamps with cross over disciplines is fine and possibly even a good thing. Sabbat however brings the total of Gangrel with dom up to 7, including a 5 capacity and a 4 capacity. With the Sabbat Ventrue with aus are now legion, the lowest capacity being 3. Strategies that where once difficult or nearly impossible (Gangrel dominate S&B, Ventrue intercept) are now no brainers. This doesn't seem right. >> 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't >> need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. >> Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper >> Hand, etc.. > >Remember that Sabbat is "suppost" to be "stand alone" except no starts. >Therefore just like Ice Age and Mirage from M:tG you need to have certain >cards just to function. > I am unfamiliar with the Magic "stand alone" games. In magic they would have to reprint mana I guess... Jyhad is not Magic however. Instead of reprinting the same cards why didn't they do something similar yet different. For example: instead of Cats Guidance make Hellhound Guard. A animalism card which would give +1 intercept at inferior, and allow you to untap after a action is announced at superior. This would be different and creative without ruining game balance. I feel there was a lack of creativity involved here. >> 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline >> is going to have a S:CE. > >This is one thing I agree with. Part of deck construction was finding >disciplines that were compatable. Now ppl will be getting closer to one >discipline decks that neeed no other back up > Exactly. Steve Bucy

Steve Bucy wrote: > > Zelf the Worox or LAStH <andb...@prairie.nodak.edu> wrote: > >On 15 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > > > >> 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue > >> with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use > >> almost any skill with any clan. > > > >Yes you might be able to use any skill with any clan but to what extent? > >The vamp. with the unrelated skill s "usually"(never know whats going to > >happen with sabbat) are a higher pool than what a sensible person would > >use in a clan deck of that type. > > > > As you describe it is not a problem. Having 3 or 4 8+ capacity vamps with > cross over disciplines is fine and possibly even a good thing. Sabbat > however brings the total of Gangrel with dom up to 7, including a 5 > capacity and a 4 capacity. With the Sabbat Ventrue with aus are now > legion, the lowest capacity being 3. Strategies that where once difficult > or nearly impossible (Gangrel dominate S&B, Ventrue intercept) are now no > brainers. This doesn't seem right. > I disagree. It has always been possible(through use of skill cards) to get vampires (well, at least one) that have any mix of disciplines you want. The main consideration was the ease with which it could be done. With trouble, you could make a (not necessarily effective) deck that used any combination of disciplines. While some combinations are more effective than others, there is simply no way to combine disciplines in such a way that the game is really broken. Most combos, no matter how effective, add more to the game (in terms of variety and interest) than the detract (ie, make someone win all the time). Obf. and Dom. makes one of the most effective combinations in the game, and malkavians have both of these as clan disciplines. Obf. and Pres. are complete opposites(the idea behind the powers, not what the cards do) but they are amazingly effective when combined in a vote deck, as setites(who have both disciplines as clan discipolines) can easily do. If you can't break the game with discipline combinations, then I, for one, am all for making them easy to do. Each new deck adds something to the game. One of the joys of playing a ccg is seeing new decks that use new combinations of old cards. Why should interecept decks be limited to a few clans? If someone wants to play a ventrue interecept deck, I say let 'em. There's nothing wrong with it. Its just different. I see that as a good thing. Similarly, a i'd rather play with a new and interesting gangrel s&b deck than another combat deck that uses essentially the same cards as all the others. (You scorpion sting me with claws of the dead for 3 aggravated and prevent all my damage? How innovative and clever!) Protean has always had some great avoid combat/stealth cards, but only the gangrel had protean, and the gangrel never did much but fight, so these cards were rarely used. Encouraging the gangrel to move away from combat essentially "un-obsoletes" these cards. Clans with greater access to a wide variety of disciplines can be used to make a wider variety of decks, making the game more interesting. I see nothing wrong with not being able to figure out the entirety of someone's library as soon as you see the first vampire. > >> 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't > >> need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. > >> Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper > >> Hand, etc.. > > > >Remember that Sabbat is "suppost" to be "stand alone" except no starts. > >Therefore just like Ice Age and Mirage from M:tG you need to have certain > >cards just to function. > > > I am unfamiliar with the Magic "stand alone" games. In magic they would > have to reprint mana I guess... Jyhad is not Magic however. Instead of > reprinting the same cards why didn't they do something similar yet > different. For example: instead of Cats Guidance make Hellhound Guard. A > animalism card which would give +1 intercept at inferior, and allow you > to untap after a action is announced at superior. This would be different > and creative without ruining game balance. I feel there was a lack of > creativity involved here. > Here, i agree with you. It would have been a simple thing for WOTC to print cards that had abilities similar to those of cards already in existance(thereby preserving the "flavor" of the disciplines) but that were different enough that people would use them. A lot of other disciplines could have benefited (as in been made more interesting, not unreasonably more powerful) from gaining the kind of redundancy that obfuscate, potence, and a few others have. I would certainly have welcomed another animalism intercept card; you can only play one cats per action, so you have to be packing a lot of raven spies to get respectable intercept. With such limited options, few use animalism intercept, so the cards are effectiveley wasted. Oh, well. WOTC could have done something bettter than they did. What else is new? > >> 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline > >> is going to have a S:CE. > > > >This is one thing I agree with. Part of deck construction was finding > >disciplines that were compatable. Now ppl will be getting closer to one > >discipline decks that neeed no other back up > > > Exactly. > > Steve Bucy I agree that if all the disciplines end up identical, or if one discipline ends up able to do everything, that would be bad, but i don't agree that givng disciplines powers that they didn't previously have is necessarily bad. The example given, the branching out of S:CE, is one case where it can be good. Most really good combat decks will burn a vampire per combat if their opponent doesn't make a good show of defending himself. Also, most combat decks have at least one or two effective ways of dealing with s:CE. In a non-combat deck S:CE is often necessary but not sufficient for survival. Time was, every non-combat deck needed either presence or fortitude. The ventrue have both of these, and all of the other clans that had one, specifically the gangrel, the toreador, and the brujah, were quite often combat decks. I see nothing wrong with the Malkavians beeing able to defend themselves from rush combat.(Well, they can use Thoughts Betrayed, but TB simply shouldn't exist. See my arguments on that thread.)

[ quoted text not captured ] I was not saying that cross over disciplines where "broken". Although I they could change game balance. It is true that it has always been possible to use any discipline with any clan due to skill cards. Skill cards by nature however reduce the effectiveness of a deck. You can't depend on getting the skill card you need unless you put in a lot of them. If you put in lots of skill cards (at least 6 to be sure you get one) you will hurt the effectiveness of the deck. This was a natural limit on adding skills. This is no longer a consideration. The real problem with crossover skills in my opinion is that they take away originality. You used to have to think and be creative to make a Gangrel Dominate S&B deck. With the Sabbat anyone can do it. Crossover skills also destroy the uniqueness of each clan. The Ventrue where known for their lack of intercept, which set them apart from the Toreador. With the Sabbat they become almost like the Toreador. Each clan used to have it's own strong and week points. With the Sabbat the clans are all growing closer together. If this continues the clans will have no real identity at all. Steve Bucy

> Steve Bucy wrote: > > I just read the Duelist #14 articles on the Sabbat. I am for one am not > very impressed. Besides the concerns about escalation and broken cards, > there are other things that bug. > 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue > with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use > almost any skill with any clan. Ventrue antitribu are supposed to have Aus Dom For. I don't understand how the Gangrel got Dom, but there are supposed to be City (Cel Obf Pro) and Country (Reg.) In general, the Sabbat tend to have more crossovers between disciplines than the Camarilla, because they share blood and teach disciplines among themselves frequently. I like crossover vampires, with some of their clan powers and another discipline. Kallista, Bear Paw, Justine...If certain vampires allow certain strange combinations of disciplines, then the game world is widened,and the better for it. I don't like vampires taken so far that they have one clan discipline and 3 non-clan. There is a Gangrel in Sabbat, a 3 cap. with ani for. Protean is what makes the clan work, dammit. I really hated Kalinda in AH-having no signature clan discipline at 6 was really too much. > 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't > need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. > Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper > Hand, etc.. Personally, I'd love to have more Cat's Guidances. They could have done away with Regaining the Upper Hand, but most of the things still in Sabbat are the basic, all-purpose things, like Undead Strength. Wake's been changed. > 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline > is going to have a S:CE. Obfuscate, IMO, should have had an S:Ce from the beginning. Vanish from Mime's Eye should have been a S:Ce instead of Press to End, Press. Auspex, however, should never have an S:Ce, and neither should Celerity or Potence. > I may be wrong but it is starting to seem like a money making racket. Well. Here we are...WotC wants to make money. The real reason we don't have as much *stuff* (NetRep, Duelist coverage, free cards, $100 000 tournaments, etc) is that WotC doesn't pull as much of a profit off of the small number of obsessives here as the large number of obsessives in the other game. But WotC doesn't want to intentionally lose _these_ obsessives, and followed their current trend of overpowering to attract weenies with Ancient Hearts. Sabbat looks like more of the same. Intention or not, overpowered cards are unpleasant, in a game noted for balance. > P.S. For all you Tremere conspiracy believers: Have you noticed the > articles in the Duelist all end with the Thaumaturgy symbol. Hmmmm... No, I did not. Eeeeeewww. That might explain their special emphasis on Shotgun Ritual and their inclusion of Ian Forestal in the previous Duelist. OR maybe it's just a carry-over from the previous 40 Magic articles, and they envision the Tremere methuselah as the opponent in duels. -Nathan Harada At work building a Salubri expansion.

Steve Bucy (tb...@lainet.com) wrote: : 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue : with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use : almost any skill with any clan. They're following V:tM, at least on the Ventrue antitribu. The base disciplines of the Ventrue antitribu are Auspex, Dominate, and Fortitude. -c -- Colin Bunnell "If I were a good man, cbun...@lynx.neu.edu I'd understand the spaces cbun...@slaw.neu.edu between friends." -PF

On 16 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > Zelf the Worox or LAStH <andb...@prairie.nodak.edu> wrote: > >On 15 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > > > >> 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue > >> with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use > >> almost any skill with any clan. > > > >Yes you might be able to use any skill with any clan but to what extent? > >The vamp. with the unrelated skill s "usually"(never know whats going to > >happen with sabbat) are a higher pool than what a sensible person would > >use in a clan deck of that type. > > > > As you describe it is not a problem. Having 3 or 4 8+ capacity vamps with > cross over disciplines is fine and possibly even a good thing. Sabbat > however brings the total of Gangrel with dom up to 7, including a 5 > capacity and a 4 capacity. With the Sabbat Ventrue with aus are now > legion, the lowest capacity being 3. Strategies that where once difficult > or nearly impossible (Gangrel dominate S&B, Ventrue intercept) are now no > brainers. This doesn't seem right. > Perhaps the reason for the "legions" of Ventrue with auspex is that the Antitribu Ventrue have Auspex instead of Presence as a clan discipline. Gangrel have always seemed weak in the bleed area (maybe this is a good thing?), and although they can get some stealth, I still don't see them as a S&B clan, even with some dominate. > >> 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't > >> need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. > >> Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper > >> Hand, etc.. > > > >Remember that Sabbat is "suppost" to be "stand alone" except no starts. > >Therefore just like Ice Age and Mirage from M:tG you need to have certain > >cards just to function. > > > I am unfamiliar with the Magic "stand alone" games. In magic they would > have to reprint mana I guess... Jyhad is not Magic however. Instead of > reprinting the same cards why didn't they do something similar yet > different. For example: instead of Cats Guidance make Hellhound Guard. A > animalism card which would give +1 intercept at inferior, and allow you > to untap after a action is announced at superior. This would be different > and creative without ruining game balance. I feel there was a lack of > creativity involved here. > Maybe the design team was still catering somewhat to the ideas of card limits. If you increase the number of cards that do a similar thing, then you can get that many more in your deck in a CL environment. > >> 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline > >> is going to have a S:CE. > > > >This is one thing I agree with. Part of deck construction was finding > >disciplines that were compatable. Now ppl will be getting closer to one > >discipline decks that neeed no other back up > > > Exactly. > > Steve Bucy > This can be a concern, especially if disciplines are doing things they shouldn't, like Celerity bleed or Auspex damage (now, I could see Auspex increasing damage, but not dealing it independently). But on the other hand, it might be nice to see some expansion in what can be done with a specific discipline. Is there any reason why any discipline SHOULDN'T have a S:CE (except maybe Potence, but even that may be justified)?

> Perhaps the reason for the "legions" of Ventrue with auspex is that the > Antitribu Ventrue have Auspex instead of Presence as a clan discipline. > > Gangrel have always seemed weak in the bleed area (maybe this is a good > thing?), and although they can get some stealth, I still don't see them > as a S&B clan, even with some dominate. Can you tell us what the tribu-antitribu changes are? So far I know of: Malks: Obf Aus Dem Gangrel: Obf Cel Pro [but maybe not all of them have this. City/Country??] Ventrue: Dom For Aus Any others? Why the difference in some clans and not others? James -- | James E. Hamblin | "It's not Magic, kid; it's evil." | | je...@cornell.edu | -- Tom Servo |

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, James E. Hamblin wrote: > Can you tell us what the tribu-antitribu changes are? So far I know of: > Malks: Obf Aus Dem Correct > Gangrel: Obf Cel Pro [but maybe not all of them have this. > City/Country??] There are two breeds of Gangrel antitribu, the City- and Country-. The above are standard for City Gangrel, while the old familar ani/for/pro is for the Country Gangrel > Ventrue: Dom For Aus Correct. > Any others? Why the difference in some clans and not others? That's it. The rest is only differences in outlook. [Reply-to:sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu] @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++ # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # P++ C(+++) USX+ N++ !w @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ X++ b++(+++) tv(+)> @#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ e+* PS++@ PE@ z*++?

James Engman <eng...@okstate.edu> wrote: > > >On 16 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > >> Zelf the Worox or LAStH <andb...@prairie.nodak.edu> wrote: >> >On 15 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: >> > >> >> 1.) Major cross over disciplines on many of the new vampires. Ventrue >> >> with aus, Gangrel with dom, etc. Pretty soon you will be able to use >> >> almost any skill with any clan. >> > >> >Yes you might be able to use any skill with any clan but to what extent? >> >The vamp. with the unrelated skill s "usually"(never know whats going to >> >happen with sabbat) are a higher pool than what a sensible person would >> >use in a clan deck of that type. >> > >> >> As you describe it is not a problem. Having 3 or 4 8+ capacity vamps with >> cross over disciplines is fine and possibly even a good thing. Sabbat >> however brings the total of Gangrel with dom up to 7, including a 5 >> capacity and a 4 capacity. With the Sabbat Ventrue with aus are now >> legion, the lowest capacity being 3. Strategies that where once difficult >> or nearly impossible (Gangrel dominate S&B, Ventrue intercept) are now no >> brainers. This doesn't seem right. >> > >Perhaps the reason for the "legions" of Ventrue with auspex is that the >Antitribu Ventrue have Auspex instead of Presence as a clan discipline. Possible. That is a logical for reason at least. >Gangrel have always seemed weak in the bleed area (maybe this is a good >thing?), and although they can get some stealth, I still don't see them >as a S&B clan, even with some dominate. With 7 vamps with dom the Gangrel IMO become the ultimate S&B clan. I have been very successful using multiples of the 4 large vamps (Stanislava, Ingrid, Faruq, and Illiana) with dom in a Gangrel dom S&B deck. Gangrel have Form of the Mist and Earth Meld. Good cards for offense and S:CE. This gives them more defense then Malks without hurting offense. Gangrel also have good stealth; Earth Control, Backways, FotM. There is nothing like playing a govern the unaligned with Faruq or Illiana. If your prey blocks play earth control. If he gets the +2 intercept you can play FotM end combat and continue at +3 stealth. Even if your prey comes up with 3 more intercept (which rarely happens) you will probably have a Earth Meld, Claws of the Dead or something else to screw him. Throw in some deflections to top it off. It was very nasty before, after Sabbat... >> >> 2.) Reprints of lots (not a couple), but lots of cards you just don't >> >> need 20 more of. Couldn't they come up with similar but different cards. >> >> Why do I have to waste money on more Cats Guidance, Regaining the Upper >> >> Hand, etc.. >> > >> >Remember that Sabbat is "suppost" to be "stand alone" except no starts. >> >Therefore just like Ice Age and Mirage from M:tG you need to have certain >> >cards just to function. >> > >> I am unfamiliar with the Magic "stand alone" games. In magic they would >> have to reprint mana I guess... Jyhad is not Magic however. Instead of >> reprinting the same cards why didn't they do something similar yet >> different. For example: instead of Cats Guidance make Hellhound Guard. A >> animalism card which would give +1 intercept at inferior, and allow you >> to untap after a action is announced at superior. This would be different >> and creative without ruining game balance. I feel there was a lack of >> creativity involved here. >> > >Maybe the design team was still catering somewhat to the ideas of card >limits. If you increase the number of cards that do a similar thing, >then you can get that many more in your deck in a CL environment. Another possible excuse that seems logical. However Jyhad has always been designed as a NL game. The new DCI rules are NL. If the design team did this to cater the the CL crowd they really blew it. >> >> 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline >> >> is going to have a S:CE. >> > >> >This is one thing I agree with. Part of deck construction was finding >> >disciplines that were compatable. Now ppl will be getting closer to one >> >discipline decks that neeed no other back up >> > >> Exactly. > >This can be a concern, especially if disciplines are doing things they >shouldn't, like Celerity bleed or Auspex damage (now, I could see >Auspex increasing damage, but not dealing it independently). But on the >other hand, it might be nice to see some expansion in what can be done >with a specific discipline. Is there any reason why any discipline >SHOULDN'T have a S:CE (except maybe Potence, but even that may be justified)? I see no problem at all with expanding the disciplines. That allows new strategies, new decks, and keeps the game interesting. However the disciplines should expand in new and different ways, not expand to become more alike. If every discipline has its own verson of the same card there will be no originality. Steve Bucy

Greetings Steve and others, It seems as if the clans will soon not need to be known by name. They will all be the same so we could just call them by a number or maybe a color, if we want to be creative. Then again, with the sameness infesting the game, maybe we could call the clans by different shades of the same color. Doug Dunaway

[ quoted text not captured ] Wait just a moment here. Even though I will admit to believing that making all of the clans alike is a bad thing, I don't think that that's exactly the case of what's happening here(or even if it is, that we can be sure about that yet). Obfuscate is getting an S:CE. IMHO, It should have had it from the beginning. Celerity is getting bleed; nice, but it's probably going to be really expensive and restricted(like cat burglary). If it's not, then I'll worry and complain with the rest of you. Thaumaturgy is getting first round aggs(gulp) via shotgun ritual. This _is_ a bad thing(TM). But not because it makes the clans alike; because it gives the tremere an ability which they, as far as I can tell, do not need, and have never needed. The cross over of disciplines is a good thing; it encourages diversity in deck construction, which adds to the game. I like the idea of some sick person out there making an effective Ventrue combat deck; maybe It'll become possible. Maybe not. But even the cross-over in Sabbat (With the exception of Ian Forestal) won't make it as mindless as you might think; some of the gangrel w/ dominate don't have protean at all. The ability to have a clan do something other than what it normally does adds an interesting aspect to the game; but without work and some skill in deck building, it will be difficult to make the clan as effective in the non-specialized area as in the specialized one. And such divergences, in my experience, have been fragile and easily disrupted(My malkies w/ flamethrowers deck is a good example; it dies when anyone pulls a Rotshreck). That the possibility exists is good. Making it mindless(which I don't think Sabbat will do; I can't see my Obfuscate/Protean/Dominate deck being too easy to make even w/ Sabbat) is bad. Of course, if Sabbat does make it mindless I'll be just as ticked as you are. But right now, I don't see that it will. We'll just have to wait and see the set to reach any conclusions. Alec Chang

Alec Chang wrote: > Thaumaturgy is getting first round aggs(gulp) via shotgun ritual. This > _is_ a bad thing(TM). But not because it makes the clans alike; because > it gives the tremere an ability which they, as far as I can tell, do not > need, and have never needed. The thing that gets my goat about this is that their attitude is "Now the Tremere don't have to wait until the second round", as if that were a good thing. Hee, hee. Now I can get burned on the first round. Yay! Not that they need Shotgun Ritual anyway. Now that they have an easy to use press. At least I'm not bitter... [ quoted text not captured ]

"James E. Hamblin" <je...@cornell.edu> wrote: >Alec Chang wrote: >> Thaumaturgy is getting first round aggs(gulp) via shotgun ritual. This >> _is_ a bad thing(TM). But not because it makes the clans alike; because >> it gives the tremere an ability which they, as far as I can tell, do not >> need, and have never needed. > >The thing that gets my goat about this is that their attitude is "Now >the Tremere don't have to wait until the second round", as if that were >a good thing. Hee, hee. Now I can get burned on the first round. Yay! > >Not that they need Shotgun Ritual anyway. Now that they have an easy to >use press. At least I'm not bitter... Bummer. I sure am...

Alec Chang <te...@lava.net> wrote: (Much snippage) > >The cross over of disciplines is a good thing; it encourages diversity >in deck construction, which adds to the game. I like the idea of some >sick person out there making an effective Ventrue combat deck; maybe >It'll become possible. Maybe not. But even the cross-over in Sabbat >(With the exception of Ian Forestal) won't make it as mindless as you >might think; some of the gangrel w/ dominate don't have protean at all. If limited I agree cross over disciplines are a good thing. If taken to far however... 6 of the 7 gangrel with dom have Pro. The other is a 4 cap that makes a great deflector. >The ability to have a clan do something other than what it normally does >adds an interesting aspect to the game; but without work and some skill >in deck building, it will be difficult to make the clan as effective in >the non-specialized area as in the specialized one. And such divergences, >in my experience, have been fragile and easily disrupted(My malkies w/ >flamethrowers deck is a good example; it dies when anyone pulls a Rotshreck). >That the possibility exists is good. Making it mindless(which I don't think >Sabbat will do; I can't see my Obfuscate/Protean/Dominate deck being too easy >to make even w/ Sabbat) is bad. A Obf/Pro/Dom deck is hard to make with or without the Sabbat. With the Sabbat a Pro/Dom deck is a breeze however. >Of course, if Sabbat does make it mindless I'll be just as ticked as you are. >But right now, I don't see that it will. We'll just have to wait >and see the set to reach any conclusions. Right now the only one I know for sure is Gangrel Dom S&B. That itself will not ruin the game. I guess it just makes me fearful of the direction things seem to be going. We shall see... Steve Bucy

James Hamblin wrote: "The thing that gets my goat about this is that their attitude is "Now the Tremere don't have to wait until the second round", as if that were a good thing. Hee, hee. Now I can get burned on the first round. Yay!" I really fail to see how Shorgun Ritual will really help out the Tremere all that much. Barring the use of Thoughts Betrayed (which is well regarded as a broken and/or inappropriate card for the game), the Tremere's big problem is not that all of their good strikes are second round, it is that they have no way to avoid getting messed up in the first place and/or making ANY of their strikes useful at all, be them first or second round. The Tremere cannot deal with S:CE, Dodge/Aditional Strike, Immortal Grapple, or anything else that nullifies their strikes. Regardless of whether or not the Tremere can use their cool second round strikes on the first round, if they are Immortally Grappled, they can't do anything. If their opponent plays a S:CE, they can't do anything. If their opponent has dodges and aditional strikes, they can't do anything. In any of these situations, having the ability to play Walk of Flame the first round will have no bearing on the combat. It will just cost the Tremere 2 extra blood, causing them to die even faster. The main problem with the Tremere in combat always has been (again, ignoring Thoughts Betrayed) that against a non combat ready deck, they will kill them outright, regardless of the fact that their good strikes are 2nd round only, but against a good combat deck they will just be killed as they do not have Celerity or Fortitude to fall back on to help them be useful in the first round (I'm sure that someone somewhere has made a good Tremere THA/CEL deck or something, but I am sticking to their basic disciplines) Basically, Shotgun Ritual will not measurably help out the Tremere in any way that matters. If used against a non combat deck (that does not imedately S:CE or Dodge all of your strikes, mind you), you are paying 2 blood to avoid pressing, which they probably can't prevent anyway. Hardly seems worth it. If used against a good combat deck, the Tremere will pay 2 blood to be able to play 2nd round cards imediately, but that will be completely in vain as you will be Immortally Grappled or your opponent will dodge your strike and then beat you senseless with Blur or something. All Shotgun Ritual will really do is make fights where the Tremere were going to win a bit quicker while making fights that the Tremere was going to lose, well, a bit quicker. If we choose to not ignore Thoughts Betrayed, Shotgun Ritual is also useless, as why use Shotgun Ritual in your deck and still get Immortally Grappled or S:CE'ed, when you can just play TB and simply press into the next round and kill your opponent anyway? Granted, all of this is based on the assumption that Shotgun Ritual is a card that says something like "Second round only Tha strikes may be played on the first round", as everyone seems to be under the impression of. If it allows Blood to Water on the first round, then, well, I'll just cover my head... Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "Look at me. I'm way cool. I'm off with my way cool friends to sniff floor wax." -Brian Krackow

In article <543duh$m...@clark.zippo.com>, Steve Bucy [ quoted text not captured ] I agree it may not be right but the fact of the matter is that they have stuck to the principles of giving vampires disciplines they are meant to have in the RPG. Ventrue anti-tribu have auspex, dominate and fortitude. I think that anti-tribu should not be allowed to be used with camarilla vampires due to the fact that they are opposites (hence anti-tribu) This will probably help game balance too as it will be like introducing 13 new clans. I hope they haven't brought out city gangrel with obfuscate, celerity and protean as these could be very unpleasent.... [ quoted text not captured ] I agree with this point completely. >>> 3.) The disciplines are becoming more alike. Pretty soon every discipline >>> is going to have a S:CE. >> >>This is one thing I agree with. Part of deck construction was finding >>disciplines that were compatable. Now ppl will be getting closer to one >>discipline decks that neeed no other back up >> >Exactly. This is also true, thats why my suggestion above should probably be used. Does anyone know how they are going to handle voting as sabbat have Cardinals (Justicars), Arch-bishops (Princes), and bishops (Primogen) instead of the normal camarilla power structure. With this in mind how could a game involving voting with both camarilla and Sabbat work as each others votes would have no weight in each others power structures? Do they just ignore each others votes? LOS >Steve Bucy >

In article <54hiau$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com (PDB6) writes: > > The Tremere cannot deal with S:CE, Dodge/Aditional Strike, Immortal > Grapple, or anything else that nullifies their strikes. Regardless of > whether or not the Tremere can use their cool second round strikes on the > first round, if they are Immortally Grappled, they can't do anything. If > their opponent plays a S:CE, they can't do anything. If their opponent > has dodges and aditional strikes, they can't do anything. In any of > these situations, having the ability to play Walk of Flame the first round > will have no bearing on the combat. It will just cost the Tremere 2 extra > blood, causing them to die even faster. > Unless I'm mistaken, dodges do not prevent blood loss from stolen blood? Randy -- =============================================================================== Randy J. Ray -- U S WEST Technologies IAD/CSS/DPDS Phone: (303)595-2869 Denver, CO rj...@uswest.com "It's not denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept." --Calvin ===============================================================================

rj...@uswest.com (Randy J. Ray) writes: >Unless I'm mistaken, dodges do not prevent blood loss from stolen blood? Dodges prevent all effects of the opposing strike[1]. This includes damage, stealing blood, paralyzation[2], stealing/destroying equipment, and losing skill cards. The only thing Dodge cannot cancel is a Strike: Combat Ends. Notes: [1]: It actually only voids the opposing strike's effects on the Dodging minion and his equipment (not his retainers, nor any side effects that the strike has one the striking minion). [2]: Jyhad - there is no paralyzation in VtES. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Cats teach us that not http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | everything in nature has Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | a function.

In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.96102...@ducat.cs.wisc.edu>, theCorrupter <adr...@ducat.cs.wisc.edu> writes: > On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Randy J. Ray wrote: > > > Unless I'm mistaken, dodges do not prevent blood loss from stolen blood? > > Well, a dodge cancels the effects of the opponent's strike when it > resolves, thus, dodge would stop "Strike: Steal X blood", but a dodge > would not stop a card (not yet in print, if ever) that says "Steal X > blood" that was not a strike. > > But basicly, dodges _do_ cancel Strike: Steal Blood. I believe my mistake came in looking it up under damage prevention, where the rules state that damage prevention, in general, cannot prevent damage due to stolen blood. I suppose (in retrospect) that such is saying that cards such as Flak Jacket cannot prevent such damage. Much clearer now, and my opponents will be *so* happy to hear this... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Randy J. Ray wrote: > Unless I'm mistaken, dodges do not prevent blood loss from stolen blood? Well, a dodge cancels the effects of the opponent's strike when it resolves, thus, dodge would stop "Strike: Steal X blood", but a dodge would not stop a card (not yet in print, if ever) that says "Steal X blood" that was not a strike. But basicly, dodges _do_ cancel Strike: Steal Blood. [Reply-to:sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu] [ quoted text not captured ]

>The cross over of disciplines is a good thing; it encourages diversity >in deck construction, which adds to the game. I like the idea of some >sick person out there making an effective Ventrue combat deck; maybe >It'll become possible. Maybe not. I have made two decks involving ventrue that can fight well. (well, okay, one was a fortitude/thaumaturgy deck - but it was a fairly standard two clan deck <Tremere/Ventrue>). The way I got the ventrue to fight was with lots of fortitude, traps and presses and a smattering of potence (Add the 10 blood giovanni and Marty Lechanski as they both have good crossovers), it was basically a load of elder ventrue who couldn't be arsed with voting and decided they'd teach these rowdy anarchs how to fight in a dignified way (the inspiration came from reading "The Last Supper" module for V:tM, anyone who has read this will know how tough Hardeschtadt is), and all this without using Thoughts betrayed or Bhang Nakk (sp?), Imagine how good it could be now! cheerio, Anonymous

PDB6 (pd...@aol.com) wrote: > James Hamblin wrote: > "The thing that gets my goat about this is that their attitude is "Now the > Tremere don't have to wait until the second round", as if that were a good > thing. Hee, hee. Now I can get burned on the first round. Yay!" > > I really fail to see how Shorgun Ritual will really help out the Tremere > all that much. Barring the use of Thoughts Betrayed (which is well > regarded as a broken and/or inappropriate card for the game), the > Tremere's big problem is not that all of their good strikes are second > round, it is that they have no way to avoid getting messed up in the first > place and/or making ANY of their strikes useful at all, be them first or > second round. > Shotgun ritual will help a bit when intercepting: block/short combat/Fast Reaction/Shotgun Ritual/Cauldron of Blood (or if its allowed, Blood to Water and then Walk of Flame or Cauldron of Blood)/press if necessary. Most Brujah have a hard time setting up a dodge/additional strike pattern without any blood in their system. -Mark Langsdorf http://www.engr.trinity.edu/~mlangsdo/RPGs/Jyhad/index.html

>Lord of Shadows wrote: > I think that > anti-tribu should not be allowed to be used with camarilla > vampires due to the fact that they are opposites (hence > anti-tribu) This will probably help game balance too as it will > be like introducing 13 new clans. I hope they haven't brought > out city gangrel with obfuscate, celerity and protean as these > could be very unpleasent.... WotC is not separating City and Country officially, but there are Gangrel with CEL PRO OBF. However, I doubt that the Gangrel could be used in an only-Sabbat environment. From the list, it appears that the Gangrel are severely screwed if you want a near-pure Gangrel deck. Three of the Gangrel are City, and the rest are Country ANI FOR PRO. There's a 6 capacity without Pro, a 3 capacity without Pro, and a 4 capacity without Pro (ani pot dom). They don't mesh well at all with the other Sabbat Gangrel, who have such disparate disciplines that Protean is the only connection between them. Without using Camarilla Gangrel, the chances of making a decent Gangrel deck are pretty low-and that's if you're going Country only. To make a City Gangrel crypt-Assamites+Daliyah+ Chandler+Stanislava seems like the only way to go. -Nathan Harada

>PDB6 wrote: > James Hamblin wrote: > "The thing that gets my goat about this is that their attitude is "Now the > Tremere don't have to wait until the second round", as if that were a good > thing. Hee, hee. Now I can get burned on the first round. Yay!" > I really fail to see how Shorgun Ritual will really help out the Tremere > all that much. Barring the use of Thoughts Betrayed (which is well > regarded as a broken and/or inappropriate card for the game), the > Tremere's big problem is not that all of their good strikes are second > round, it is that they have no way to avoid getting messed up in the first > place and/or making ANY of their strikes useful at all, be them first or > second round. Possible. But how many decks can really kill a largish Tremere first round? Brujah can. Assamites can. Gangrel can. Toreador need guns, which they won't get with a Tremere deck in play. Nosferatu and Giovanni maybe. Anybody else, or the above decks focused on anything other than combat, will not be able to. S:Ce is a different matter-it does not hurt the Tremere, or prevent their function as blood loss to combat will. > The Tremere cannot deal with S:CE, Dodge/Aditional Strike, Immortal > Grapple, or anything else that nullifies their strikes. Regardless of > whether or not the Tremere can use their cool second round strikes on the > first round, if they are Immortally Grappled, they can't do anything. If > their opponent plays a S:CE, they can't do anything. If their opponent > has dodges and aditional strikes, they can't do anything. In any of > these situations, having the ability to play Walk of Flame the first round > will have no bearing on the combat. It will just cost the Tremere 2 extra > blood, causing them to die even faster. Fast Reactions/Hidden Lurker. If you know that your opponent bases their combat defense/offense off strikes, whether S:CE or dodge or big hand strikes, then combined with Shotgun Ritual, either of the two above will work wonders. Obfuscate? Tremere with Obfuscate include Justine, Etrius, Ian Forestal, Rev. Blackwood; Malks with Thaumaturgy include Lucian, Mariel, and Quira. To get through the first combat, use Elysium:TA or allow the poor sucker with a Majesty to end it for you. If the defense is non-strike? Fortitude can't prevent most Thaumaturgy strikes. Throw them for a loop with non-Walk stuff, like Drain Essence. What else is there besides Fortitude to stop the damage or end combat that can't be easily dealt with? > Basically, Shotgun Ritual will not measurably help out the Tremere in any > way that matters. If used against a non combat deck (that does not > imedately S:CE or Dodge all of your strikes, mind you), you are paying 2 > blood to avoid pressing, which they probably can't prevent anyway. Hardly > seems worth it. If used against a good combat deck, the Tremere will pay > 2 blood to be able to play 2nd round cards imediately, but that will be > completely in vain as you will be Immortally Grappled or your opponent > will dodge your strike and then beat you senseless with Blur or something. Okay. Think about it this way. The Tremere X is going to lose at least 2 blood from hand strikes if he does his damage the normal way, beating on Ventrue Y with a press. If X can fry Y in the first round, without having to go through the usual press schtick, he saves at least one blood from the hand strikes. He's only down one blood more than he would have been with the press&2 rounds. Say, for example, that you are fighting a Celerity deck which has used up all its dodges-for now. They still have some additional strikes in their hand, but if the Walk of Flame goes through, there is no real danger from the extra strikes, since they're in torpor. > If we choose to not ignore Thoughts Betrayed, Shotgun Ritual is also > useless, as why use Shotgun Ritual in your deck and still get Immortally > Grappled or S:CE'ed, when you can just play TB and simply press into the > next round and kill your opponent anyway? Because Anvil, as he is, with a Tremere Convocation in play, can use the superior effect of Shotgun Ritual, Blur his a$$ off, and kill someone his size or larger...and couldn't pull Thoughts Betrayed. TB can only be used by Thomas Thorne and upwards-anyone with Thaumaturgy can use Shotgun Ritual. With regards to Immortal Grapple and S:Ce-see the above FR/HL idea. Immortal Grapple is one card-and Tremere should be careful around Potence anyway. Cockiness is not a virtue. > Granted, all of this is based on the assumption that Shotgun Ritual is a > card that says something like "Second round only Tha strikes may be played > on the first round", as everyone seems to be under the impression of. If > it allows Blood to Water on the first round, then, well, I'll just cover > my head... I hope so too. All of the above plus blood to water...ick. -Nathan Harada Who is definitely going to be a Salubri this Halloween.

Nathan Harada <i...@hula.net> writes: > Possible. But how many decks can really kill a largish >Tremere first round? Brujah can. Assamites can. Gangrel can. >Toreador need guns, which they won't get with a Tremere deck in play. >Nosferatu and Giovanni maybe. Actually, I'd put Nosferatu up there at "can." One time, good old Sheldon needed to hunt, but Ulugh Beg blocked him. The end result was Sheldon not in torpor, and Ulugh Beg in torpor with 2 blood and pulled fangs. This could easily have been a burn with one more card. I don't use Torn Signpost in my deck because I need the space for other cards. Mike

Nathan Harada wrote: "Possible. But how many decks can really kill a largish Tremere first round?" My main point about Shotgun Ritual as a concept was that if the Tremere are fighting someone who is going to kill them, playing second round strikes on the first round will not measurably help them. If they are fighting a good combat deck, then being able to Cauldron of Blood or Walk of Flame someone on the first round will not really help them, as they will still get Immortally Grappled or Acrobatics'ed, or Fortituded (vs. Cauldron or Flame...). If, on the other hand, the Tremere are fighting a deck that cannot match them in combat, being able to play second round strikes on the first round won't make any difference, as they would probably be able to press into the second round anyway (except aginst S:CE, where again, Shotgun won't help) I'm sure that there are some situations (like the ones you pointed out, the Fast Reaction combo springs to mind as a good one that I had not thought of intially) where Shotgun Ritual will prove to be usefull, but on the whole, I don't think it will really change Tremere combat all that much (as opposed to Thoughts Betrayed...), certainly not the point of Shotgun Ritual being too good or a broken card (again, based on assumptions...). Assuming that Shotgun only allows the use of Strikes, and not Blood to Water, the net result in most situations are either 1/2 Aggro (Walk of Flame) for 3 Blood, 3/5 Damage (Cauldron) for 3 Blood, or 4/5 Blood Stealing (Essence Drain) for 4 Blood (I am a bit iffy on some of the exact numbers as I am working from memory. Please excuse any point glitches :-). I can't think of any other important second round strikes off hand. These are hardly out of line with other combat clans, especially considering the cost (a Nosferatu/Brujah can punch for 7 for no Blood cost...). Drain Essence seems to come off best out of all of them. Mind you, I have no great love of the Tremere (I'm a hard working Nosferatu, m'self), and I do somewhat subscribe to the Tremere Conspiracy theories, but I don't think that Shotgun Ritual will really make all that much of a difference in the long run, let alone make them too good (that distinction is reserved for TB...). [ quoted text not captured ]

Alec Chang wrote: > > The cross over of disciplines is a good thing; it encourages diversity > in deck construction, which adds to the game. I like the idea of some > sick person out there making an effective Ventrue combat deck; maybe > It'll become possible. Maybe not. But even the cross-over in Sabbat > (With the exception of Ian Forestal) won't make it as mindless as you > might think; some of the gangrel w/ dominate don't have protean at all. > > The ability to have a clan do something other than what it normally does > adds an interesting aspect to the game; I completely agree with that!! Yeah, although I really like Jyhad more than any other game I've ever played by far, I'm a bit bored with clans being able to do certain things really efficiently and all other things nearly not at all. Yes, of course, I haven't played a Malk sneak and Bleed for a long long time, I#m not taöking about the three standard deck stategies, but even with some really original ideas - ever seen a, say, Ventrue aggravated/sneak deck? I neither. Sometimes I suppose that I've seen every at least minor playable deck strategy. As you I think, crossover dixciplines will make the game not less but more interesting... Lets wait and see. By the way - although I am on this Newsgroup for quite a while I cannot memorise all those abbreviations. What is S.CE??? Marc

In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.961018...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, James Engman <eng...@okstate.edu> writes: > > This can be a concern, especially if disciplines are doing things they > shouldn't, like Celerity bleed or Auspex damage (now, I could see > Auspex increasing damage, but not dealing it independently). But on the > other hand, it might be nice to see some expansion in what can be done > with a specific discipline. Is there any reason why any discipline > SHOULDN'T have a S:CE (except maybe Potence, but even that may be justified)? Fortitude. Fortitude should not have a S:CE. Potence could allow you to leap tall buildings in a single bound (at least at superior). And, while that is a grandiose breach of the Masquerade, it would end combat. Ritaxis

In article <326B2A...@lava.net>, Alec Chang <te...@lava.net> writes: >DOUGDWISE wrote: >> >> Greetings Steve and others, >> It seems as if the clans will soon not need to be known by name. They >> will all be the same so we could just call them by a number or maybe a >> color, if we want to be creative. Then again, with the sameness infesting >> the game, maybe we could call the clans by different shades of the same >> color. >> Doug Dunaway > >Wait just a moment here. Even though I will admit to believing that making >all of the clans alike is a bad thing, I don't think that that's exactly >the case of what's happening here(or even if it is, that we can be sure >about that yet). OK, perhaps I was laying it on a bit thick. Actually I think it's a problem if carried too far, but I was overstating my position to make a point. Should have used that little smiley face thing, I guess. ;-) > >Obfuscate is getting an S:CE. IMHO, It should have had it from the >beginning. > >Celerity is getting bleed; nice, but it's probably going to be really >expensive and restricted(like cat burglary). If it's not, then I'll >worry and complain with the rest of you. > >Thaumaturgy is getting first round aggs(gulp) via shotgun ritual. This >_is_ a bad thing(TM). But not because it makes the clans alike; because >it gives the tremere an ability which they, as far as I can tell, do not >need, and have never needed. > >The cross over of disciplines is a good thing; it encourages diversity >in deck construction, which adds to the game. I like the idea of some >sick person out there making an effective Ventrue combat deck; maybe >It'll become possible. Maybe not. But even the cross-over in Sabbat >(With the exception of Ian Forestal) won't make it as mindless as you >might think; some of the gangrel w/ dominate don't have protean at all. > >The ability to have a clan do something other than what it normally does >adds an interesting aspect to the game; but without work and some skill >in deck building, it will be difficult to make the clan as effective in >the non-specialized area as in the specialized one. And such divergences, >in my experience, have been fragile and easily disrupted(My malkies w/ >flamethrowers deck is a good example; it dies when anyone pulls a Rotshreck). >That the possibility exists is good. Making it mindless(which I don't think >Sabbat will do; I can't see my Obfuscate/Protean/Dominate deck being too easy >to make even w/ Sabbat) is bad. > >Of course, if Sabbat does make it mindless I'll be just as ticked as you are. >But right now, I don't see that it will. We'll just have to wait >and see the set to reach any conclusions. > >Alec Chang > > Greetings to all, As I'm still learning the ins-and-outs of quoting with this newsgroup stuff I'll refrain from trying to do anything too daring. Anyway I just wanted to say that I will wait to see what the new expansion brings. I will, however, say that I don't want every discipline to have their S:CE and their bleed enhancements and their damage prevention/reduction and their agg damage and their stealth modifier and intercept modifier just because it makes more things possible. The disciplines should remain unique. They can explore some new areas, even powerful areas, but they should not stray into powers normally in other disciplines just to increase variety. Just my opinion. Looking forward to seeing just how cool the Lasombra are, Doug Dunaway

Marc Erl wrote: (SNIP) > memorise all those abbreviations. What is S.CE??? > Marc Strike: Comabt Ends. -- Steve "I Bled Someone for 14 Pool in One Turn Because of a Misdirection" Wampler, creator of the "Spend 29 Pool on Vampires and Get Bled for One and Die™" deck ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another which states that this has already happened. -Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe Any sufficiently advanced technology is indestinguishable from magic. -Clarke's Law

"Marc Erl" <er...@uni-muenster.de> writes: >By the way - although I am on this Newsgroup for quite a while I cannot >memorise all those abbreviations. What is S.CE??? Here's a list to get you going: 4CL: Four Card Limit - the usual CL (imported from MtG) AoR: Army of Rats B&B: Bruise and Bleed - put potential blockers in torpor and bleed freely CCG: Collectible Card Game CL: Card Limit (on the number of an individual card in the deck) CTB: Cross Table Bleed - bleeding someone other than your prey DBR: Dragon Breath Rounds DCI: Duelist Convocation (official tournament makers) DS: Dark Sovereigns - the first expansion to VtES FoW: Force of Will (a DS card) GT: Golden Tenets: no repeat actions and no vote pushing. GtU: Govern the Unaligned HG: Hunting Ground IC: Inner Circle KRC: Kine Resources Contested (also, a deck composed of mostly this card) LSJ: L. Scott Johnson - keeper of lists :-) Mask1K: Mask of a Thousand Faces MOoT: Master: Out-of-Turn MotB: Madness of the Bard (a DS card) MotSB: Movement of the Slow Body (only found in Jyhad) MS&B: Malkavian Stealth and Bleed (refers to the deck or the strategy) MtG: Magic: the Gathering, the first successful CCG MVH: Muddled Vampire Hunter NC: Non-Camarilla NCL: No card limits (same as NL) NL: No Limits (on the number of an individual card in the deck) OTP: One Trick Pony: a deck that does only one thing (usually degenerate) P/J: Prince or Justicar RoF: Reversal of Fortune (not to be confused with ROFL) RTR: Rules Team Ruling - official interpretation of a card or rule s/h/it: she/he/it (PCness taken to the Malkavian point of view) S:CE: Strike: Combat Ends S&B: Stealth and Bleed (or Sneak and Bleed, meaning the same thing) SR: Sudden Reversal TB: Thoughts Betrayed (a DS card) TGFKAJ: The Game Formerly Know As Jyhad TOM: Tom Wylie - WotC Net.Rep VtES: Vampire: the Eternal Struggle (TGFKAJ) WotC: Wizards of the Coast - makers of VtES and MtG WwEF: Wake with Evening's Freshness YASR: Yet Another Stupid Ruling --- AFAIK: as far as I know FWIW: for what it's worth IIRC: if I recall correctly IME: in my experience IMHO: in my humble opinion IMO: in my opinion j/k: just kidding LOL: laugh(ing) out loud (a lesser version of ROFL) OTOH: on the other hand ROFL: roll(ing) on (the) floor, laughing ROFLMAO: ..., laughing mass off TTBOMK: to the best of my knowledge YMMV: your mileage may vary [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I was discussing this with my brother the other day, and we agreed that fortitude would be one of the more difficult disciplines to create a S:CE card for. In the end, though, the concept we came up with is basically "Walk Away". The vampire with fortitude simply walks away from the combat. "Yeah, go ahead and shoot me in the back with DBR, I'll just make my soak roll anyway." Yes, I know I used the RPG terms, but V:TES uses disciplines at all levels, so I figure a high-enough level fortitude would basically allow you to walk away from combat.

Greetings to all, Just a quick question here. Why do you folks advocating a S:CE for every discipline think it is necessary or desirable? Are combat decks that destructive to your game environment? I would imagine that a S:CE for every (or even most) disciplines would just reduce the chances of anybody ever getting into combat without using TB or IG or Psyche. And packing enough of these to allow a combat deck to get to combat often enough to be effective in a S:CE rich evironment would dilute the deck's damage dealing potential and make it less effective when it does manage to have combat. Since we haven't seen it yet, I assume the R&D folks at WotC haven't decided to give each discipline a S:CE do it is kind of speculative at this point. It remains one of the signature features of Presence and Protean (any others? I can't recall offhand.) Anyway, just to restate my question: why do the folks advocating giving every discipline a S:CE think it is desirable or necessary? Looking forward to hearing the response. Doug Dunaway

Doug, I really doubt anyone is advocating a S:CE for every discipline. Right now, I think we're just trying to justify the game-world terms for (maybe) giving Fortitude and Potence a S:CE. I don't think it's a good thing, but it appears to me that certain disciplines, such as Obfuscate, should have had one in the basic set. (Maybe this is just me.) Put this way-I don't think that any of the combat disciplines-Fortitude, Potence, Thaumaturgy (Celerity has Riposte) should get S:CEs. Auspex and Dominate really should not have anything to S:CE. Dominate has Obedience, Auspex Read Intentions. Animalism? What? Although an S:CE could be justified in each of these cases, it should not. As long as the S:CEs are limited, I don't have a problem. Justification for things later doesn't make them a good thing for the game. -Nathan Harada

[ quoted text not captured ] Fair enough, Nathan. I also don't have a problem with S:CE as long as it's limited. I just think that an expansion of the game to put S:CE into more disciplines would lead to a proliferation that would really screw combat decks. Just speculation now on my part though. Doug Dunaway

First of all, somewhat in WoTC's defence: the Ventrue *antitribu* of the Sabbat have Auspex rather than Presence as a clan (bloodline, technically) discipline in the tabletop game. This raises a question I'd like to hear people's opinions on, though. There are certain combinations of disciplines that seem to be extremely (some would argue: too) effective. Case in point being the Malkavian's Dominate+Obfuscate. Now, (presumably) the reason behind certain clans having certain combos is that those are the disciplines from the RPG. What to people think would be the best way to fix this (in theory, not like anyone from WoTC would pay attention to a discussion like this :)? Would it be worthwhile to fix it (some people obviously think that it would)? Would it be better to change the clan's discipline mixes in the card game, moving away from the RPG, or would a preferable fix be to have designed the card effects with an eye toward the combinations available, even at the expense of card effects that were counterintuitive to the disciplines' presumed effects (like, say, if Dominate had been a combat discipline)? Daniel Levine

pel...@odyssee.net (Daniel H. Levine) > This raises a question I'd like to hear people's opinions on, though. >There are certain combinations of disciplines that seem to be >extremely (some would argue: too) effective. Case in point being the >Malkavian's Dominate+Obfuscate. Now, (presumably) the reason behind >certain clans having certain combos is that those are the disciplines >from the RPG. > What to people think would be the best way to fix this (in theory, not >like anyone from WoTC would pay attention to a discussion like this >:)? This is largely a moot point. You can't unprint the existing Malkavians, nor unprint the OBF and DOM cards. All that is set. If some clans are particularly good, this has to be handled with rules changes or with new additions to the set. Personally I think some of the old combos are a bit good (OBS/DOM and CEL/POT, maybe PRE/FOR) but WotC's sense of balance seems worse than when the game was first printed and their attempts to fix just seem to bring bigger problems. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

: pel...@odyssee.net (Daniel H. Levine) wrote in article : This raises a question I'd like to hear people's opinions on, though. : There are certain combinations of disciplines that seem to be : extremely (some would argue: too) effective. Case in point being the : Malkavian's Dominate+Obfuscate. Now, (presumably) the reason behind : certain clans having certain combos is that those are the disciplines : from the RPG. More than likely...personally, I picked up the game only because I really enjoy playing the RPG...and used to enjoy to the LARP. It would be hard for the CCG to remain close to the RPG if they started mixing and matching disciplines on a whim. I won't argue Malkavian Obfuscate+Dominate though...in the LARP I was in, my character was the Malkavian Primogen. Dominate+Obfuscate+a tiny bit of Thaumaturgy made a lot of lives hell. It makes life hell in the card game as well. Personally, I think the biggest mistake WotC made was creating cards dependent on Rock-Paper-Scissors...my reputation from the LARP has followed me into the card game, and no one allows me to play Rock Paper Scissors at all...I always seem to win or tie. : What to people think would be the best way to fix this (in theory, not : like anyone from WoTC would pay attention to a discussion like this : :)? Would it be worthwhile to fix it (some people obviously think : that it would)? Would it be better to change the clan's discipline : mixes in the card game, moving away from the RPG, or would a : preferable fix be to have designed the card effects with an eye toward : the combinations available, even at the expense of card effects that : were counterintuitive to the disciplines' presumed effects (like, say, : if Dominate had been a combat discipline)? I think, personally, that they perhaps should have tried to balance out the disciplines a little more, although given the nature of card game mechanics and the complexity of V:TES, it's a task I wouldn't envy. Moving away from the RPG would probably turn away a lot of people who play the game (myself, for one). I picked it up because it was a cool way to get into the Vampire politics aspect of the Vampire:RPG without having to sit down with a bunch of people whose characters act more like Imperial Marines from Warhammer. The LARP wasn't much better...so far, the CCG satisfies my scheming political brain just fine. Moving away from the RPG wouldn't impress me, or some of the people I play with. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Jeff Franzmann ~ People are strange, ~ Campaign Outfitters Netrep ~ When you're a stranger ~ Editor in Chief, CPI ~ People look ugly, ~Winnipeg, Manitoba ~ When you're alone... ~ CANADA ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Campaign Outfitters Homepage: http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~campaign Canticle Publishing Homepage : http://www.aratar.mb.ca/~canticle