Banishment on Alvaro

Yello! I came across a situation. My Alvaro was the target of a Banishment. I couldn't beat the other guys votes, so I had Alvaro abstain from the vote. Does he still get the 2 blood as he's being Banished? Thanks, Jamie The Seppo

"Jamie The Seppo" <moon...@useoz.com> schreef in bericht news:1fb48054.0310...@posting.google.com... > Yello! > I came across a situation. > My Alvaro was the target of a Banishment. I couldn't beat the other > guys votes, so I had Alvaro abstain from the vote. Does he still get > the 2 blood as he's being Banished? > Yes.

Jamie The Seppo wrote: > Yello! > I came across a situation. > My Alvaro was the target of a Banishment. I couldn't beat the other > guys votes, so I had Alvaro abstain from the vote. Does he still get > the 2 blood as he's being Banished? No. Google: "Alvaro Banishment author:LSJ" -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F8BE621...@white-wolf.com>... > Jamie The Seppo wrote: > > Yello! > > I came across a situation. > > My Alvaro was the target of a Banishment. I couldn't beat the other > > guys votes, so I had Alvaro abstain from the vote. Does he still get > > the 2 blood as he's being Banished? > > No. > Google: "Alvaro Banishment author:LSJ" Well, looking over what you said in previous emails, it's because he would be in the uncontrolled area before he'd get the blood. But why can't he get the blood in the uncontrolled area? Vamps can get blood from Govern the Unaligned, and there are other cards that can target a vamp in the uncontrolled area. He abstained in the vote, he was ready during the vote. Why wouldn't consequences happen from what he did when he was ready? If anything, then why would a vamp that has it's capacity increased and then banished have to pay the extra blood to be able to come out? They're stated to be out of play as well. Banishment also says that blood counters on the vampire stay with that vampire. Alvaro gets the blood from the blood bank. Govern gets the blood from the blood bank. I know why he get blood while in torpor or if he was already in the uncontrolled area. It's because vamps in torpor or that are out of play can't vote, thus he couldn't abstain. But he did as the card stated. During the resolution, he abstained, and it doesn't say on the card wether or not he had to be ready or controlled after the action is completed. Would he get 2 blood if he took enough damage from a referendum that sent him to torpor (i.e. Kahina's damage vote) even if he abstained? Thanks, Jamie The Seppo

Jamie The Seppo wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F8BE621...@white-wolf.com>... > >>Jamie The Seppo wrote: >> >>>Yello! >>> I came across a situation. >>>My Alvaro was the target of a Banishment. I couldn't beat the other >>>guys votes, so I had Alvaro abstain from the vote. Does he still get >>>the 2 blood as he's being Banished? >> >>No. >>Google: "Alvaro Banishment author:LSJ" > > > Well, > looking over what you said in previous emails, it's because he would > be in the uncontrolled area before he'd get the blood. But why can't > he get the blood in the uncontrolled area? Vamps can get blood from > Govern the Unaligned, and there are other cards that can target a vamp > in the uncontrolled area. He abstained in the vote, he was ready > during the vote. Why wouldn't consequences happen from what he did > when he was ready? Nothing targets out-of-play things except the things that say they do. Alvaro's text doesn't say he does (nor does his text even have the chance to, since the text itself isn't in effect when he's not in play). > If anything, then why would a vamp that has it's capacity increased > and then banished have to pay the extra blood to be able to come out? They don't. > They're stated to be out of play as well. > Banishment also says that blood counters on the vampire stay with that > vampire. > Alvaro gets the blood from the blood bank. When he's in play. > Govern gets the blood from > the blood bank. And moves it to a vampire that's not in play, by explicit card text. > I know why he get blood while in torpor or if he was already in the > uncontrolled area. It's because vamps in torpor or that are out of > play can't vote, thus he couldn't abstain. But he did as the card Vampires in torpor are in play. Alvaro gains in torpor, since he's in play. > stated. During the resolution, he abstained, and it doesn't say on > the card wether or not he had to be ready or controlled after the > action is completed. "Controlled" (i.e., in play) is the default. It includes torpor, but not uncontrolled. > Would he get 2 blood if he took enough damage from a referendum that > sent him to torpor (i.e. Kahina's damage vote) even if he abstained? Yes. Torpor is still in play. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Well, > looking over what you said in previous emails, it's because he would > be in the uncontrolled area before he'd get the blood. But why can't > he get the blood in the uncontrolled area? Vamps can get blood from > Govern the Unaligned, and there are other cards that can target a vamp > in the uncontrolled area. He abstained in the vote, he was ready > during the vote. Why wouldn't consequences happen from what he did > when he was ready? > If anything, then why would a vamp that has it's capacity increased > and then banished have to pay the extra blood to be able to come out? > They're stated to be out of play as well. > Banishment also says that blood counters on the vampire stay with that > vampire. > Alvaro gets the blood from the blood bank. Govern gets the blood from > the blood bank. I think that's because cards like Govern the Unaligned (used at superior) don't actually transfer "blood" to a vampire in the uncontrolled area. Remember that the transfers process is supposed to represent how much influence and resources you do spend to control a vampire. Look at the rulebook and you'll see that your pool represents the amount of resources you have in hand to move your pawns into the game, and Govern is a card that represents that one vampire is helping you with the process (and that's why it needs to target a *younger* vampire and it has its name). You can safely say that the counters in an uncontrolled vampire are not "blood" until this vampire comes out to the ready reagion. On the other hand, Banishment represents the efforts of the vampire community, lead by an older vampire, to cast out the target from the struggle. In game terms, the target is moved to the uncontrolled region to represent that he'll retire from the jyhad until someone (you, his controller) spend some resources and influence to "clean" him up so he can show his face again. The counters stay with the vampire to represent how much of his capacity he still mantains and you must provide the rest (and since he's on the uncontrolled region again, they're not "blood" anymore). That's why you should pay the "extra" blood if he had this capacity increased through the game. Imagine this scenario: Alvaro enters the jyhad. He start his moves. He gets older and more powerful (skill card). So some ancient thinks he's getting dangerous and banish him. Of course you, its master, has to spend more influence on "cleaning" him, since he knows better of the jyhad now. Last but not least, this special still does negate the benefits of some votes (Kahina's special, Free States Rant, the Final Nights etc., not forgetting he will be almost impossible of Corrupting or Tempting by Setites if the table had at least one voter deck), but if he could gain the blood even if Banished, it would be too powerful. The whole purpose of Banishment is to force the controller to spend more pool to mantain a powerful pawn in the game. > I know why he get blood while in torpor or if he was already in the > uncontrolled area. It's because vamps in torpor or that are out of > play can't vote, thus he couldn't abstain. But he did as the card > stated. During the resolution, he abstained, and it doesn't say on > the card wether or not he had to be ready or controlled after the > action is completed. Vampires do not take benefits from its specials while in the uncontrolled region. At the end of the action, as stated on Alvaro's cardtext, he gains 2 blood; but in the case of Banishment, at the end of the action, he's uncontrolled, so he can't benefit from any card in play, effect, his special etc. It isn't necessary to have explicit card text on this in Alvaro since everybody knows that I can't tap Michael Luther to make Arika's 4 votes mine for a referendum if he's uncontrolled ;-) > Would he get 2 blood if he took enough damage from a referendum that > sent him to torpor (i.e. Kahina's damage vote) even if he abstained? I suppose yes. He's in torpor but still controlled, and nothing on him says that he should be ready to benefit from his special.

All well. I suppose that means that the actual effect of the PA (in this case, banishing Alvaro) is still part of the political action itself. In other words, a PA is still susceptible to action modifiers even after the votes are counted. Or, if a vote passes and I happen to have a Bewitching, I can toss that a voter cap while people are moving blood around (from a Parity or something?). This feels to me as opposite to another ruling you made. Cards for a PA are (used to be) replaced AFTER the action has completed. So, that would be, AFTER the effect has taken place. Under pre-Anarch rules, it was possible to replace those cards (again, AFTER the resolution of everything), draw a voter cap and play it, even though the action has already ended. I realize this is Pre-Anarchs talk, but it's sort of the same situation. What if I targetted my own acting vampire with banishment (can't do that b/c of the capacity thing), but just imagine I did)? Can I voter cap him before he goes uncontrolled? I always thought you could, since the sending to uncontrolled region part happens AFTER the PA itself. Alvaro also gets blood AFTER the PA in which he abstained. They have AFAIK the same timing. Aren't you free to choose then?

Ulugh Beg II wrote: > All well. > > I suppose that means that the actual effect of the PA (in this case, > banishing Alvaro) is still part of the political action itself. Correct. [6.2.3.2] > In other words, a PA is still susceptible to action modifiers even after > the votes are counted. Or, if a vote passes and I happen to have a > Bewitching, I can toss that a voter cap while people are moving blood > around (from a Parity or something?). No. BO can only be played before tallying the votes. > This feels to me as opposite to another ruling you made. Cards for a PA > are (used to be) replaced AFTER the action has completed. So, that would > be, AFTER the effect has taken place. Under pre-Anarch rules, it was > possible to replace those cards (again, AFTER the resolution of > everything), draw a voter cap and play it, even though the action has > already ended. Voter Cap was playable before Anarchs as well, since it is played after the referendum, not during, so could be played after replacing. > I realize this is Pre-Anarchs talk, but it's sort of the same situation. > What if I targetted my own acting vampire with banishment (can't do that > b/c of the capacity thing), but just imagine I did)? Can I voter cap him > before he goes uncontrolled? I always thought you could, since the No. Voter Cap is played after the referendum. > sending to uncontrolled region part happens AFTER the PA itself. Alvaro No. It happens when the referendum is resolved. > also gets blood AFTER the PA in which he abstained. They have AFAIK the > same timing. Aren't you free to choose then? You can order Alvaro's special with Voter Cap, since they both occur after the referendum, sure. But both happen after the referendum, so after Alvaro would be in the uncontrolled region (and could no longer use his special and could no longer play Voter Cap). [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F8D2045...@white-wolf.com>... > Jamie The Seppo wrote: > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F8BE621...@white-wolf.com>... > Nothing targets out-of-play things except the things that say they do. > Alvaro's text doesn't say he does (nor does his text even have the chance > to, since the text itself isn't in effect when he's not in play). ahhh... I see. So here he was, looking forward to a paid vacation, but forgot to submit his leave-of-absence papers. Gotcha > > If anything, then why would a vamp that has it's capacity increased > > and then banished have to pay the extra blood to be able to come out? > > They don't. DOH! Damn, I'll have to look that back up, because we here were under the impression that an 8-cap made 9-cap by a master discipline card that was Banished, had to come up with a total of 9 blood before coming out of the Uncontrolled area. > Vampires in torpor are in play. > Alvaro gains in torpor, since he's in play. But I thought vampires in torpor can't vote. If you can't vote, how can you abstain? oh my... I just saw the rule. You gain votes from ready vampires. But that doesn't mean vampires in torpor can' vote, because all controlled vampires inherently vote, correct? And if they can vote, they can abstain, they just can give their votes to the polling... So what are the chances of ever seeing a action mod/reaction mod that allows a titled vampire in torpor to throw it's votes in? Auspex allows for some groovy things :) Thanks, Jamie The Seppo

On 15 Oct 2003 18:22:05 -0700, moon...@useoz.com (Jamie The Seppo) scrawled: >LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F8D2045...@white-wolf.com>... >> Jamie The Seppo wrote: >> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F8BE621...@white-wolf.com>... [snip] >> > If anything, then why would a vamp that has it's capacity increased >> > and then banished have to pay the extra blood to be able to come out? >> >> They don't. > >DOH! Damn, I'll have to look that back up, because we here were under >the impression that an 8-cap made 9-cap by a master discipline card >that was Banished, had to come up with a total of 9 blood before >coming out of the Uncontrolled area. There was a time a while back when Master cards (only) on Uncontrolled vampires were still considered to be...there. Or something. Probably why Brainwash never got it's 'stealth errata' to actually make it a card in play. But that hasn't been the case for aaaages. >> Vampires in torpor are in play. >> Alvaro gains in torpor, since he's in play. > >But I thought vampires in torpor can't vote. If you can't vote, how >can you abstain? I'm pretty sure abstain just means 'didn't cast votes'. It doesn't matter whether you would be able to cast votes or not. If you didn't cast any, you abstained. Alvaro still gains blood even if he has no title and he doesn't cast votes. >So what are the chances of ever seeing a action mod/reaction mod that >allows a titled vampire in torpor to throw it's votes in? Auspex >allows for some groovy things :) That'd be so cool. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

salem expounded: > >> Vampires in torpor are in play. > >> Alvaro gains in torpor, since he's in play. > > > >But I thought vampires in torpor can't vote. If you can't vote, how > >can you abstain? > > I'm pretty sure abstain just means 'didn't cast votes'. It doesn't > matter whether you would be able to cast votes or not. If you didn't > cast any, you abstained. Alvaro still gains blood even if he has no > title and he doesn't cast votes. The reference from LSJ was what happened when the vote sent him to topor after he abstained. Can we have an official clarification on what 'abstaining' requires? -I reckon you need to have votes you can cast and not cast them.

Timlagor wrote: > Can we have an official clarification on what > 'abstaining' requires? Abstaining and not voting are the same thing. A vampire who doesn't vote is a vampire who abstains. [ quoted text not captured ]