We had a solid 24 player turnout for the Watford prerelease.
Expectatations were high after the teasers on the site and everyone
was digging the "purple boxes with the hot chick in the bodice".
The way we played it was with 4 boosters a head and a precon. Once
everyone had been randomly offered a precon and opened their boosters,
they were split up into groups of 4 (one of each clan) and given the
oppertunity to trade up to 20 cards each. This was done by each player
laying out up to 20 cards they wanted to trade in front of them and
taking it in turns to offer trades around the table. If no-one want
the card on offer, it got turned over. 30 minutes was allocated for
this.
The problem was that the boosters generally had a lot of the same
cards in, and each player ended up sticking all their dross out for
trade. There was very little on offer that people were glad about
trading! However, after trimming out a lot of the dross in the deck,
there was plenty of room for a few of the cool new cards to make a
competitive deck.
I was playing !Tremere, which in this enivronment seemed quite strong.
A little combat, more than enough intercept, 4 deflections(!!), and 2
blood dolls. Also, it had the most reliable bleed boost with about 8
power bleeds - 2 Scouting Missions (best used at Superior in this
environment), 2 Slaughtering the Herd (only ever worth using at basic)
and 4 Bondings. It's weakness came in the lack of stealth, so during
the trading I horded 6 Stealth Ritae, and a couple of the new
!Tremere's (and extra copy of the delicious Selena and Mary Black
(?)).
During the drafting, I also became away of some cards that, even on
the face of them look HIDEOUSLY breakable:
Iron Glare.
Action Modifier
FREE!!!
Pot + Pre
Basic = Gain 2 votes in a referendum
Superior = (No other bleed modifiers can be played for this action
after this card is played) +2 bleed.
Is it just me or is this card wrong? Giving Brujah or !Brujah decks
this much scope for flexible vote push or bleed is alarming! Archon
decks are about to become the new black. Mix with Sword of Triole and
Heidleburg for +1 brokenness!
Communal Haven: Cathedral
Costs 1 pool
Requires a Sabbat Vampire
Location (NOT UNIQUE!)
Tap to move equipment and / or blood between 2 ready vampires you
control.
That's right kids, a NON CONTESTABLE Heidleburg for the Sabbat. This
is basically the card that makes Mind Rape decks 150% more powerful.
Add 6 in a deck with 8 Minion Taps. Use your BIG FAT LASOMBRA (tm) to
Mind Rape all 3 or 4 of your preys minions. Tap over up to 4 vampires
blood to your own minions instantly. Neutralise your prey in 1 turn.
Power bleed next turn. Rinse, repeat.
Deed the Heart's Desire
Actoin Modifier
Quietus
Costs 1 blood
Basic: Long and the short is that it's like a Seduction
Superior: As above except that minion CAN'T PLAY REACTION CARDS!!!
Blimey! Tool up a pile of Assamites with dominate and powerbleed with
them! And they get access to Elder Impersonation and stealth too! Even
better for use in neutralising Obbedience! Best still, nuke some
minions with combat and when there is only one left THEN tool up and
powerbleed.
Abyssal Hunter
Wraith (?) Ally
Requires Lasombra
2 Pool
4 Life(!) 3 Hand Damage (!) 0 bleed
Can do one damage to any minion as a D action. Every untap (?) does
one damage to a Lasombra you control. Burn him if he takes any ag,
even if prevented.
A bit pricey, but with Charisma and good pool gen, he's a beast! Get a
fleet of them and get them all doing the D action in one turn. Then
add Shadow Twins. With 3 hand damage, they are bad enough to kick
serious ass!
Anyhow, play commenced. We set up a tidy 6 tables of 4 to play as was
obviously intended. It seemed from pretty early on that the Malks had
a serious competitive edge with both sneak votes AND sneak bleed. Even
in combat they had a Coma-tastic advantage. In nearly every game they
scored very well, with the Tremere coming in a close send. Despite the
lack of Blood Dolls and Minion Taps, the Art Scams and Voter Caps did
the Toreador proud, and it was the Nossies who were the poor man on
the day.
As far as my deck went, I felt glad I included those cheeky stealth
Ritae, since it gave me an edge to sneak bleed out the Malks in the
first game and do a lot of pool damage in the second game. I
ultimately scored 3 vp in the second game and ended up with 4 vp
overall - an exact tie with Ant Coleman who was also playing Tremere.
For the final, we played "Clan Champions" rather than highest scores
(i.e. the hoighest scoring player from each clan). The finalists were:
Jon Cooper, !Malkavian (8 vps!)
Hugh Angseeing, !Toreador (5 vps)
Ant Coleman, !Tremere (4 vps) - Although we scored the same, I really
couldn't be arsed to play another game since my 2nd round game was the
last one to finish.
Jenny Merrick (1 vp) - Shawn Ludwig scored 2 vps, but left early as I
think his girlfriend was getting a little testy after having sat there
for 6 hours watching him play.
Seating Order was:
Jenny
Ant
Hugh
Jon
From what I gather, Jenny got stiffed with 2 KRCs and 2 power bleeds
in the first 4 turns. Hugh also seemed to get the rub from a selection
of mighty bleeds and a few big hits from Ant's robed ruffians. It
seemed a close call as to who would be ousted first, but sad to say
Jenny ended up being turned over. Hugh followed swiftly afterwards.
This left Ant and Jon doing a dangerous dance. Both could powerbleed,
both could intercept. Ant had a minion advantage though, and seemed to
consistently pull off more damage than Jon. On the last turn, Jon had
2 pool and Ant had 7. Then Jon, in an act of mad bravado, played
Malkavian Game. That's right, play rock, paper, scissors and the
winner gains 2 pool from the looser. If he lost, he'd be out.
Ant and Jon both counted to 3 and both drew the same shape (Scissors,
I think). This meant they were both playing for 3 pool now. Again they
counted to three and Ant pulled a rock and Jon pulled paper. Ant on 4
pool, Jon now on 5. Jon had no stealth in his hand, and so with 2
minions, Jon attempted a bled with Kindred Spirits at superior. In
BOTH CASES he managed to top deck a stealth card to oust Ant.
Everyone had a great day, and everyone seemed more keen about this set
than any set since Bloodlines.
Special thanks to Ade Deacon at Battlehonors UK
(http://www.battlehonors.co.uk) for sorting out the cards for the day
and to everyone for turning up.
I might stick on an event next month, but it'll be a non - sanctioned
event on the 20th December. I just need to confirm the venue.
If anyone else in the UK is holding a tournament, do let either myself
or Mike Nudd (Prince of London) know so we can tell our playgroups
Cheers
Dave
Watford
Snipped good report
> Communal Haven: Cathedral
> Costs 1 pool
> Requires a Sabbat Vampire
> Location (NOT UNIQUE!)
> Tap to move equipment and / or blood between 2 ready vampires you
> control.
This is only useable during your Master Phase - quite powerful, but not
horrifically so. I had considered replacing Heidelburg in my Blood Brothers
deck, but the Master Phase only limit means I cannot switch Laptops around
for extra bleeding.
> Jenny
> Ant
> Hugh
> Jon>
> Ant and Jon both counted to 3 and both drew the same shape (Scissors,
> I think). This meant they were both playing for 3 pool now. Again they
> counted to three and Ant pulled a rock and Jon pulled paper. Ant on 4
> pool, Jon now on 5. Jon had no stealth in his hand, and so with 2
> minions, Jon attempted a bled with Kindred Spirits at superior. In
> BOTH CASES he managed to top deck a stealth card to oust Ant.
Does this mean that Jon only dropped one VP in three games? Blimey!
Sam
jazzbeaux <sam....@renelec.co.uk> wrote:
: Snipped good report
:> Communal Haven: Cathedral
:> Costs 1 pool
:> Requires a Sabbat Vampire
:> Location (NOT UNIQUE!)
:> Tap to move equipment and / or blood between 2 ready vampires you
:> control.
: This is only useable during your Master Phase - quite powerful, but not
: horrifically so. I had considered replacing Heidelburg in my Blood Brothers
: deck, but the Master Phase only limit means I cannot switch Laptops around
: for extra bleeding.
Yes, it's quite a bit more limited than Heidelburg, but combos quite
nicely with it, giving some extra flexibility. While not nearly as good,
it might work nicely as a backup and you don't have to include 3+
Heidelburgs in your deck if it's built around throwing blood and
equipment around.
Also, Cathedral doesn't transfer retainers, making it even more limited
in it's applicability.
//T
On 17 Nov 2003 04:10:51 -0800, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa)
scrawled:
>Iron Glare.
>Action Modifier
>FREE!!!
>Pot + Pre
>Basic = Gain 2 votes in a referendum
>Superior = (No other bleed modifiers can be played for this action
>after this card is played) +2 bleed.
>
>Is it just me or is this card wrong? Giving Brujah or !Brujah decks
>this much scope for flexible vote push or bleed is alarming! Archon
>decks are about to become the new black. Mix with Sword of Triole and
>Heidleburg for +1 brokenness!
at pot and pre it's the same as a dread gaze using merely pre. at POT
PRE it's like a Aire of Elation that doesn't cost, but you need POT.
But, it's flexibility is amazing.
>Communal Haven: Cathedral
>Costs 1 pool
>Requires a Sabbat Vampire
>Location (NOT UNIQUE!)
>Tap to move equipment and / or blood between 2 ready vampires you
>control.
>
>That's right kids, a NON CONTESTABLE Heidleburg for the Sabbat. This
nearly. it won't move retainers, and IS ONLY USABLE IN YOUR MASTER
PHASE. also, i think it only moves between 2 ready _sabbat_ vampires,
but i don't have one on hand to confirm that....
>is basically the card that makes Mind Rape decks 150% more powerful.
>Add 6 in a deck with 8 Minion Taps. Use your BIG FAT LASOMBRA (tm) to
>Mind Rape all 3 or 4 of your preys minions. Tap over up to 4 vampires
>blood to your own minions instantly. Neutralise your prey in 1 turn.
>Power bleed next turn. Rinse, repeat.
...judge ejects you for cheating. :)
>Deed the Heart's Desire
>Actoin Modifier
>Quietus
>Costs 1 blood
>Basic: Long and the short is that it's like a Seduction
>Superior: As above except that minion CAN'T PLAY REACTION CARDS!!!
>
>Blimey! Tool up a pile of Assamites with dominate and powerbleed with
>them! And they get access to Elder Impersonation and stealth too! Even
>better for use in neutralising Obbedience! Best still, nuke some
>minions with combat and when there is only one left THEN tool up and
>powerbleed.
yay! and maybe we'll see assamites get a reputation for doing
something other than trashing a bunch of minions and then getting
ousted.
(Todd and David aside....)
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
salem wrote:
> On 17 Nov 2003 04:10:51 -0800, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa)
> scrawled:
>
>>>Iron Glare.
>>Action Modifier
>>FREE!!!
>>Pot + Pre
>>Basic = Gain 2 votes in a referendum
>>Superior = (No other bleed modifiers can be played for this action
>>after this card is played) +2 bleed.
>>
>>Is it just me or is this card wrong? Giving Brujah or !Brujah decks
>>this much scope for flexible vote push or bleed is alarming! Archon
>>decks are about to become the new black. Mix with Sword of Triole and
>>Heidleburg for +1 brokenness!>
>
> at pot and pre it's the same as a dread gaze using merely pre. at POT
> PRE it's like a Aire of Elation that doesn't cost, but you need POT.
> But, it's flexibility is amazing.
>
Not quite, dread gaze is a reaction, this is an action modifier (which
makes this card better, imo).
[ quoted text not captured ]
agreed :)
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:37:51 +0100, Martin <notm...@email.dk>
scrawled:
>salem wrote:>> On 17 Nov 2003 04:10:51 -0800, dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa)
>> scrawled:
>>
>>>>>Iron Glare.
>>>Action Modifier
>>>FREE!!!
>>>Pot + Pre
>>>Basic = Gain 2 votes in a referendum
>>>Superior = (No other bleed modifiers can be played for this action
>>>after this card is played) +2 bleed.
>>>
>>>Is it just me or is this card wrong? Giving Brujah or !Brujah decks
>>>this much scope for flexible vote push or bleed is alarming! Archon
>>>decks are about to become the new black. Mix with Sword of Triole and
>>>Heidleburg for +1 brokenness!>>
>>
>> at pot and pre it's the same as a dread gaze using merely pre. at POT
>> PRE it's like a Aire of Elation that doesn't cost, but you need POT.
>> But, it's flexibility is amazing.
>>>
>Not quite, dread gaze is a reaction, this is an action modifier (which
>makes this card better, imo).
oops. I of course meant Bewitching Oration. my bad.
[ quoted text not captured ]
dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) writes:
> During the drafting, I also became away of some cards that, even on
> the face of them look HIDEOUSLY breakable:
>> [...]>
> Deed the Heart's Desire
> Actoin Modifier
> Quietus
> Costs 1 blood
> Basic: Long and the short is that it's like a Seduction
> Superior: As above except that minion CAN'T PLAY REACTION CARDS!!!
>
> Blimey! Tool up a pile of Assamites with dominate and powerbleed with
> them! And they get access to Elder Impersonation and stealth too! Even
> better for use in neutralising Obbedience! Best still, nuke some
> minions with combat and when there is only one left THEN tool up and
> powerbleed.
The Assamites already have Obfuscate.
If you tool them up with Dominate, they can bleed for billion at zillion
stealth, and neutralize bleed bounce with Spying Missions.
So why haven't we seen decks like that winning all the tournaments?
Go ahead and actually try to break those cards, before crying wo<del><del>
Ian Forestal. :-)
--
hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid,
iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.
<snip>
> Communal Haven: Cathedral
> Costs 1 pool
> Requires a Sabbat Vampire
> Location (NOT UNIQUE!)
> Tap to move equipment and / or blood between 2 ready vampires you
> control.
>
> That's right kids, a NON CONTESTABLE Heidleburg for the Sabbat. This
> is basically the card that makes Mind Rape decks 150% more powerful.
> Add 6 in a deck with 8 Minion Taps. Use your BIG FAT LASOMBRA (tm) to
> Mind Rape all 3 or 4 of your preys minions. Tap over up to 4 vampires
> blood to your own minions instantly. Neutralise your prey in 1 turn.
> Power bleed next turn. Rinse, repeat.
Just found that Jenny got one and re-read it. Only during Master Phase
is correct, so it is a lot less useful and can't be used with Mind
Rape (take control of vampire in MINION phase).
*Phew!*
Dave
h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m3oeval...@etemenanki.homelinux.net>...
> dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) writes:
>
> > During the drafting, I also became away of some cards that, even on
> > the face of them look HIDEOUSLY breakable:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Deed the Heart's Desire
> > Actoin Modifier
> > Quietus
> > Costs 1 blood
> > Basic: Long and the short is that it's like a Seduction
> > Superior: As above except that minion CAN'T PLAY REACTION CARDS!!!
> >
> > Blimey! Tool up a pile of Assamites with dominate and powerbleed with
> > them! And they get access to Elder Impersonation and stealth too! Even
> > better for use in neutralising Obbedience! Best still, nuke some
> > minions with combat and when there is only one left THEN tool up and
> > powerbleed.
>
> The Assamites already have Obfuscate.
>
> If you tool them up with Dominate, they can bleed for billion at zillion
> stealth, and neutralize bleed bounce with Spying Missions.
Spying mission hardly netralises Bleed Bounce. It invests in Bleed
Futures, but doesn't help you oust your prey. This card ousts your
prey more.
> So why haven't we seen decks like that winning all the tournaments?
Because. And Assamites are just really unpopular to play.
> Go ahead and actually try to break those cards, before crying wo<del><del>
I am just suggesting that they seemed at first glance a little pokey.
Communal Haven: Cathedral is already a lot less problematic having
actually read it properly.
Other "cringers" included Animal Magnetism (that 1 / 3 vote boost card
for ani + obf), Alpha Glint (a hugely powerful S:CE BEFORE RANGE for
ANI + FOR), and I think one was called Dia de les Meurtes (the first
vote your Sabbat vamp calls passes automatically. One per game.).
All very strong cards that kind of make certain strong deck archetypes
even stronger (Nossie Princes, now with added votes).
Dave
> All very strong cards that kind of make certain strong deck archetypes
> even stronger (Nossie Princes, now with added votes).
I don´t think that added votes are necessary for Nossie Princes. About every
vampire in my Nossie Prince deck is titled so the amount of votes is quite
enough for the most times. On the other hand I cannot think of what to
remove to make room for 5-6 of those vote modifiers the deck is quite maxed
out anyway. I prefer more combat or more 2nd Tradition to 5-6 vote modifiers
(less than that they are not showing up in the right moment anyway), because
the intercept/wake or combat is always usefull while the vote modifiers are
only usefull in the rare situation that you cannot pass votes.
--
johannes walch
v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/
<snip>
> Other "cringers" included Animal Magnetism (that 1 / 3 vote boost card
> for ani + obf), Alpha Glint (a hugely powerful S:CE BEFORE RANGE for
> ANI + FOR), and I think one was called Dia de les Meurtes (the first
> vote your Sabbat vamp calls passes automatically. One per game.).
yeah, yet another reason for putting Delaying Tactics in every deck.
*sigh*
>
> All very strong cards that kind of make certain strong deck archetypes
> even stronger (Nossie Princes, now with added votes).
group 1-2 Nossie Princes with ANI and OBF: none (only Sheldon and
Harrod) So that doesn't really make them stronger right?
group 2-3 Nossie Princes: only Casino Reeds and justicar Cock Robin.
(OK, and Humbolt too, but technically, he's no prince). But this deck
isn't -IMO- as strong as the group 1-2 version (no for!), it could use
the boost.
I'm more concerned about Capitalist and Zillah's Tears.
J
On 18 Nov 2003, Jeroen wrote:
> yeah, yet another reason for putting Delaying Tactics in every deck.
> *sigh*
You can't Delay a vote that's automatically passing.
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
>Other "cringers" included Animal Magnetism (that 1 / 3 vote boost card
>for ani + obf), Alpha Glint (a hugely powerful S:CE BEFORE RANGE for
>ANI + FOR), and I think one was called Dia de les Meurtes (the first
>vote your Sabbat vamp calls passes automatically. One per game.).
>
>All very strong cards that kind of make certain strong deck archetypes
>even stronger (Nossie Princes, now with added votes).
I don't consider any of these strong. Votes for disciplines besides Presence?
Presence still "wins" by virtue of Voter Cap. Combat ends for Ani+For? Even
if most minions with Ani+For didn't already have Protean and, thus, access to
superior combat ends (even if they don't end combat before range), there's
enough reasons for minions with the combination to not find ending combat all
that interesting. As for Dia, once per game cards have problems helping a
deck. If you try relying on it, you need to run multiples, which makes all of
the others dead draws. If you don't rely on it, probably have ways to get all
of your other votes through making it redundant.
> > If you tool them up with Dominate, they can bleed for billion at zillion
> > stealth, and neutralize bleed bounce with Spying Missions.
>
> Spying mission hardly netralises Bleed Bounce. It invests in Bleed
> Futures, but doesn't help you oust your prey. This card ousts your
> prey more.
It ousts your prey a *little* more - preventing one (and only one)
minion from bouncing your bleed is a little restrictive, but not very
- and it's not like people were playing a lot of Assamite
stealth-bleed decks to begin with.
Yeah, it's nice to say 'that vamp can't block', but the Assamites
already had that; it's nice to say 'that vamp can't bounce me', but
they already had access to 'all your vamps can't dom-bounce me'. There
just aren't *that* many decks that have useful reactions that only one
vampire can play that don't involve intercepting - most decks that
rely on one single vampire always being the reacting minion are
planning to block with that minion. Most bounce-heavy decks are
planning to be able to bounce with most of their vamps as needed.
The card's great, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's
unbalancingly potent.
> Other "cringers" included Animal Magnetism (that 1 / 3 vote boost card
> for ani + obf), Alpha Glint (a hugely powerful S:CE BEFORE RANGE for
> ANI + FOR), and I think one was called Dia de les Meurtes (the first
> vote your Sabbat vamp calls passes automatically. One per game.).
>
> All very strong cards that kind of make certain strong deck archetypes
> even stronger (Nossie Princes, now with added votes).
So what very strong deck is made even better by Alpha Glint? (And for
the record, at sup/sup it's not a S:CE before range, but just plain ol
'Combat Ends', no strike involved.) The clans that have ready access
to ANI/FOR are Gangrel/!Gangrel/Ravnos. There's no current Ravnos
strategy that relies on a lot of 'combat ends' to begin with, since
they don't have an in-clan S:CE - this card will certainly give them
one, but that's something new as opposed to an existing 'strong deck
archteype'. For the (!)Gangrel, the decks that are S:CE-ing often (and
thus might like the 'before range' aspect) are mostly either doing it
with Form of Mist to continue the action, or Earth Meld to
end-and-untap, and both are counting on the non-CE part of the strike
to power the deck. So being able to S:CE out of an IG is nice, but a
PRO/ANI/FOR deck will lose out on the extra effect of the Mist/Meld
card.
Also, a PRO deck that wants to sprinkle a few Alpha Glints in 'just in
case' it sees IG (or an opposing Dog Pack or Thrace or Lapse) isn't a
PRO deck anymore (or a PRO/FOR Force of Will deck, as is more commonly
seen), suddenly it's a deck wanting THREE advanceds instead of one or
two, and that's going to negatively impact their vampire choices/crpyt
capacities.
If anything, it's nicer for the Ravnos than the Gangrel, simply
because the Ravnos just didn't have a S:CE before.
As to the other two cards you mention: Being able to pass one vote
automatically (via Dia de los Muertos) is nice. But it's *only* one
vote, and you are letting people know in advance that the vote is
going to be unstoppable. One and only vote auto-passing is not going
to help 99% of the decks out there - the only one that *really* wants
it is a Brinksmanship deck, and I don't think anybody has made one of
those work consistently in the past.
Animal Magnetism is nice. But it's actually nicer for the !Nos than
the Nos, as the !Nos have TEN vampires that can use it at superior -
and of those, only one has pre/PRE and only four of those have titles
(2 bishop, one archbisop and a cardinal.) In contrast, there's 3
group-1, 5 group-3, and 2 group-2 Nos that can use it (and both
group-2's already have Presence for vote pushing.) It'll help out
group 2/3 Nos vote decks a little, but a single Elysium: Palace is of
more use to them than even several copies of Animal Magnetism.
> Dave
-John Flournoy
"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> schreef in bericht
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.031118...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu...
> On 18 Nov 2003, Jeroen wrote:
>
> > yeah, yet another reason for putting Delaying Tactics in every deck.
> > *sigh*
>
> You can't Delay a vote that's automatically passing.
>
why not?
DT: "only usable during a referendum..."
Rule book: 6.3.2: "The referendum consists of three steps: setting the
terms, polling (casting votes) and resolving the referendum."
I don't see why there is no chance of playing DT during the "setting the
terms" or "resolving the referendum" subphases.
J
Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
> "David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> schreef in bericht>>You can't Delay a vote that's automatically passing.>
> why not?
No voting occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
action" effects cannot be used. Any effects that operate on the number of
votes that the referendum passed by have no effect. [LSJ 19980107]
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
On 18 Nov 2003 11:15:55 -0800, flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy)
scrawled:
[about Alpha Glint]
>If anything, it's nicer for the Ravnos than the Gangrel, simply
>because the Ravnos just didn't have a S:CE before.
Aside from Mirror Image at [CHI].
Also, as a before range Combat Ends, Illusions of the Kindred.
[ quoted text not captured ]
John Flournoy expounded:
> So what very strong deck is made even better by Alpha Glint? (And for
> the record, at sup/sup it's not a S:CE before range, but just plain ol
> 'Combat Ends', no strike involved.) The clans that have ready access
> to ANI/FOR are Gangrel/!Gangrel/Ravnos. There's no current Ravnos
> strategy that relies on a lot of 'combat ends' to begin with, since
> they don't have an in-clan S:CE - this card will certainly give them
> one, but that's something new as opposed to an existing 'strong deck
<snip>
> If anything, it's nicer for the Ravnos than the Gangrel, simply
> because the Ravnos just didn't have a S:CE before.
It's called Mirror Image and it's great.
> As to the other two cards you mention: Being able to pass one vote
> automatically (via Dia de los Muertos) is nice. But it's *only* one
> vote, and you are letting people know in advance that the vote is
> going to be unstoppable. One and only vote auto-passing is not going
> to help 99% of the decks out there - the only one that *really* wants
> it is a Brinksmanship deck, and I don't think anybody has made one of
> those work consistently in the past.
Well passing that one vote is certainly one of the main obstacles -maybe
that was part of the decision.
In article <3FBA80C7...@white-wolf.com>, vte...@white-wolf.com
says...
> Jeroen Rombouts wrote:
> > "David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> schreef in bericht
> >>You can't Delay a vote that's automatically passing.
> >
> > why not?
>
> No voting occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
> action" effects cannot be used. Any effects that operate on the number of
> votes that the referendum passed by have no effect. [LSJ 19980107]
But Delaying Tactics is not one of those effects...
On the other hand, the "setting the terms" and "resolving the
referendum" portions seem to be atomic, which would force DT to be
played during the "polling" portion (which doesn't exist in the auto
pass). Let me know if I'm off on this one.
--
-Snapcase
Snapcase wrote:
> In article <3FBA80C7...@white-wolf.com>, vte...@white-wolf.com>>No voting occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
>>action" effects cannot be used. Any effects that operate on the number of
>>votes that the referendum passed by have no effect. [LSJ 19980107]>
> But Delaying Tactics is not one of those effects...
?
Delaying Tactics is one of the effecs that cannot be used.
[ quoted text not captured ]
salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<phhlrv0ibbo8vco5f...@4ax.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Gah, forgot about Mirror Image. Of course, both MI and IotK suffer the
same problem with Alpha Glint that Form of Mist and Earth Meld do -
most decks featuring them aren't using them for the combat ends as
much as for the secondary effects, which Alpha Glint doesn't have.
(Admittedly, I've seen a few decks using Earth Meld at basic
predominantly, but those would hardly count as a seriously potent deck
archetype being improved by AG, since they're also relying on small,
inferior-protean vamps who aren't likely to have ANI/FOR.
-John Flournoy
> > If anything, it's nicer for the Ravnos than the Gangrel, simply
> > because the Ravnos just didn't have a S:CE before.
>
> It's called Mirror Image and it's great.
Mea culpa there. Although as I note elsewhere, decks that make heavy
use of Mirror Image would find Alpha Glint to be less useful in most
cases to MI, so it's not really improving the deck archetype.
> > As to the other two cards you mention: Being able to pass one vote
> > automatically (via Dia de los Muertos) is nice. But it's *only* one
> > vote, and you are letting people know in advance that the vote is
> > going to be unstoppable. One and only vote auto-passing is not going
> > to help 99% of the decks out there - the only one that *really* wants
> > it is a Brinksmanship deck, and I don't think anybody has made one of
> > those work consistently in the past.
>
> Well passing that one vote is certainly one of the main obstacles -maybe
> that was part of the decision.
It absolutely helps Brinksmanship decks, and lots. However, my point
is that making a specific deck archetype work well when it has not
done so in the past does not fit Dave's original assertion that Dia de
los Muertos is a powerful card that will "make certain strong deck
archetypes even stronger". Brinksmanship wasn't a strong deck
archetype pre-BH, merely an once-in-a-while-effective one. And that
the other decks that are significantly improved by insuring that one
and only vote will definitely pass weren't strong decks before this
card. Whether or not Dia de los Muertos will strengthen some
mediocre/bad deck archetypes like pre-BH Brinksmanship (and I
personally think it will do so - a very good card without being an
overpowered one) is entirely beside the point of my comments.
-John Flournoy
On 19 Nov 2003 09:42:06 -0800, flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote:
>Gah, forgot about Mirror Image. Of course, both MI and IotK suffer the
>same problem with Alpha Glint that Form of Mist and Earth Meld do -
>most decks featuring them aren't using them for the combat ends as
>much as for the secondary effects, which Alpha Glint doesn't have.
When I'm building Ravnos decks, I'm certainly cognizant of the fact
that I've got this "+1 stealth/S:CE" card, and can therefore address
my stealth and rush defense all in one fell swoop. The continuing
action thing is strong, but a side-benefit (mainly do to getting hosed
by a simple wake).
David Cherryholmes
VEKN Prince of Durham, NC
On 19 Nov 2003 09:50:38 -0800, flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote:
>It absolutely helps Brinksmanship decks, and lots. However, my point
>is that making a specific deck archetype work well when it has not
>done so in the past does not fit Dave's original assertion that Dia de
>los Muertos is a powerful card that will "make certain strong deck
>archetypes even stronger". Brinksmanship wasn't a strong deck
>archetype pre-BH, merely an once-in-a-while-effective one. And that
>the other decks that are significantly improved by insuring that one
>and only vote will definitely pass weren't strong decks before this
>card. Whether or not Dia de los Muertos will strengthen some
>mediocre/bad deck archetypes like pre-BH Brinksmanship (and I
>personally think it will do so - a very good card without being an
>overpowered one) is entirely beside the point of my comments.
I've got a Brinksmanship deck that I thought was good enough to sit
down with at a tournament in Atlanta. I got there late, they were all
2+F, and I got bitch-slapped in the one qualifiying round I played,
but I think it's a good deck. Of course, people thinking it's a *bad*
deck is some part of it's goodness.
I'll probably put a Dia in there when I get one, but I *like* having a
voting presence with the Cardinal Benedictions.
[ quoted text not captured ]
David Cherryholmes expounded:
> When I'm building Ravnos decks, I'm certainly cognizant of the fact
> that I've got this "+1 stealth/S:CE" card, and can therefore address
> my stealth and rush defense all in one fell swoop. The continuing
> action thing is strong, but a side-benefit (mainly do to getting hosed
> by a simple wake).
Hear! Hear!
In article <3FBB658E...@white-wolf.com>, vte...@white-wolf.com
says...
> Snapcase wrote:
> > In article <3FBA80C7...@white-wolf.com>, vte...@white-wolf.com
> >>No voting occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
> >>action" effects cannot be used. Any effects that operate on the number of
> >>votes that the referendum passed by have no effect. [LSJ 19980107]
> >
> > But Delaying Tactics is not one of those effects...
>
> ?
> Delaying Tactics is one of the effecs that cannot be used.
Right. I was referring to that Delaying Tactics is not an effect that
operates on the number of votes that the referendum passed/failed by.
--
-Snapcase
John Flournoy expounded:
> card. Whether or not Dia de los Muertos will strengthen some
> mediocre/bad deck archetypes like pre-BH Brinksmanship (and I
> personally think it will do so - a very good card without being an
> overpowered one) is entirely beside the point of my comments.
I was just thinking it would be nice for passing an Anathema.
Fortunately I realised it couldn't do that.
I think you're right -might be good for passing that first Cardinal too.
> I've got a Brinksmanship deck that I thought was good enough to sit
> down with at a tournament in Atlanta. I got there late, they were all
> 2+F, and I got bitch-slapped in the one qualifiying round I played,
> but I think it's a good deck. Of course, people thinking it's a *bad*
> deck is some part of it's goodness.
>
> I'll probably put a Dia in there when I get one, but I *like* having a
> voting presence with the Cardinal Benedictions.
>
> David Cherryholmes
> VEKN Prince of Durham, NC
I think it's certainly possible to build a strong deck around Brinksmanship
without using Dia - however, I haven't actually seen (or read of) anyone
pulling it off yet. More power to you if it works!
-John Flournoy