Questions on Undead Persistence, Bauble and Aggravated damage

Hello All, 3 Questions... 1st Question... Why does Undead Persistence work the way it does? Undead Persistence - Fortitude - Combat Text: (i) Only usable when this vampire should go into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press and will not go to torpor until combat ends (although he or she is still considered wounded and can be burned as normal). If 3 rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends. This vampire is sent to torpor after combat. (S) Prevent 2 damage. When I made a comparison of Undead Persistence to Trap: Trap - Combat Text: Only usable before range is determined on the first round of combat. During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end). Both cards appear to perform the same function, but with some minor differences. However, the UP only provides 1 press where as the trap provides 1 each round. Here is where I am trying figure out why UP has the following text: "If 3 rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends." Besides having permanents (Mob Connections and Hawg) I really don't see a way for a minion to not play a press to continue combat. Is something missing from UP? I would have thought it should have a press for each round attached rather than the 1 as the situation with the permanents is not the most common sight seen on the table (Tremere and !Tremere players excluded). +++++++++ 2nd Question... A combat is initiated under the Action Modifier - Dawn Operation. The reacting minion plays Drawing Out the Beast and Weather Control. The reacting minion then converts the aggravated damage from WC to normal. The acting minion goes to torpor from the aggravated damage from WC. Does it also suffer the 1 point of aggravated damage from the DotB as well? Or is it saved from the damage because it is already in torpor and therefore immune or because the combat ended when it went to torpor? ++++++++++ 3rd Question... A Mind Rape'd minion receives Vicissitude the turn it is picked up by the MR'ing player. The player then has the minion play Bauble: Bauble - Vicissitude - Action - 2 Blood cost Text: (i) +1 stealth action. Put this card on the acting vampire. Search your library and put a non-unique, non-location equipment card on another minion you control. Do not pay the cost to equip. The vampire with this card cannot take actions, block, or vote. You may burn this card and the chosen equipment card during your untap phase or when the vampire with the chosen equipment leaves the controlled region. (S) As above, but you may burn this card and the chosen equipment at any time. When the minion (now weapon) is handed back to the original player, who controls the option to remove the Bauble card? The minion's controller or the player who played the Bauble? Thanks Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------

>===== Original Message From Michael <ramst...@MailAndNews.com> ===== >Why does Undead Persistence work the way it does? Card text, mostly. Insight into the designer's mind is hard to come by in this case. > [...] >Here is where I am trying figure out why UP has the following text: "If 3 >rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends." Besides having >permanents (Mob Connections and Hawg) I really don't see a way for a minion >to >not play a press to continue combat. Is something missing from UP? I would >have thought it should have a press for each round attached rather than the >1 >as the situation with the permanents is not the most common sight seen on >the >table (Tremere and !Tremere players excluded). A press per round would be unbalancing for Undead Persistence. Besides permanents, using Trap in conjunction with UP would also work. >+++++++++ >A combat is initiated under the Action Modifier - Dawn Operation. The >reacting minion plays Drawing Out the Beast and Weather Control. The >reacting >minion then converts the aggravated damage from WC to normal. The acting >minion goes to torpor from the aggravated damage from WC. Does it also >suffer >the 1 point of aggravated damage from the DotB as well? Or is it saved from >the damage because it is already in torpor and therefore immune or because >the >combat ended when it went to torpor? DotB damage is done during the press step which, in this case, is never reached, so the damage is not done. >++++++++++ >A Mind Rape'd minion receives Vicissitude the turn it is picked up by the >MR'ing player. The player then has the minion play Bauble: > [...] >When the minion (now weapon) is handed back to the original player, who >controls the option to remove the Bauble card? The minion's controller or >the >player who played the Bauble? "you" - the controller of the Bauble card, which is the controller of the minion the Bauble card is on, since Bauble is a minion card [1.6.3] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3ABA...@MailAndNews.com>, Michael says... > >Hello All, > >3 Questions... > >1st Question... <difference between Trap and Undead Persistence> There is a world of difference between these 2 cards: *Trap: is played before combat, doesn't give a press when you go to torpor (combat ends when you go to torpor, as usual) *UP: is played as a response to a vampire going to torpor, the result is that he stays out of torpor until the combat ends or the three rounds without cards are over. then he goes to torpor. Conclusion:In short:trap provides presses, UP keeps your minion out of torpor. HINT: play 'em both in the same combat: your 2-cap will we able to torporize a 10 cap (without acces to agg.dam.) +++++++++ <snip> Jeroen

Undead Persistence - Thanks Aggravated damage - Thanks Bauble - another question... >===== Original Message From LSJ <vte...@MailAndNews.com> ===== >>++++++++++ >>A Mind Rape'd minion receives Vicissitude the turn it is picked up by the >>MR'ing player. The player then has the minion play Bauble: >> [...] >>When the minion (now weapon) is handed back to the original player, who >>controls the option to remove the Bauble card? The minion's controller or >>the >>player who played the Bauble? > >"you" - the controller of the Bauble card, which is the controller of the >minion the Bauble card is on, since Bauble is a minion card [1.6.3] > That doesn't seem to follow the same pattern on minion cards like Seeds of Corruption. Even though I played it, if I am removed from the table, it stays on the table because it is controlled by the minion (whether it wants it or not). I had thought the card would be under the control of the minion it was on rather than the individual player who played the card. So if "I" still control the card, I would effectively hamstring an opponent's minion until I decide to release it or I am removed from the table? [ quoted text not captured ]

Michael wrote: > > Undead Persistence - Thanks > Aggravated damage - Thanks > > Bauble - another question... > > >===== Original Message From LSJ <vte...@MailAndNews.com> ===== > >>++++++++++ > >>A Mind Rape'd minion receives Vicissitude the turn it is picked up by the > >>MR'ing player. The player then has the minion play Bauble: > >> [...] > >>When the minion (now weapon) is handed back to the original player, who > >>controls the option to remove the Bauble card? The minion's controller or > >>the > >>player who played the Bauble? > > > >"you" - the controller of the Bauble card, which is the controller of the > >minion the Bauble card is on, since Bauble is a minion card [1.6.3] > > > > That doesn't seem to follow the same pattern on minion cards like Seeds of > Corruption. Even though I played it, if I am removed from the table, it > stays > on the table because it is controlled by the minion (whether it wants it or > not). Correct. Same as Bauble - Bauble is controlled by the minion it is on. > I had thought the card would be under the control of the minion it was on > rather than the individual player who played the card. So if "I" still > control the card, I would effectively hamstring an opponent's minion until I > decide to release it or I am removed from the table? No. As above, the controller of the Baubled vampire chooses. [ quoted text not captured ]