Dual Form and Possession

Iliana(1) plays an advanced Dual Form to create Iliana(2). Later in the game Iliana(1) goes to torpor and Iliana(2) is burned. Is it possible that Gillespi Giovanni (aus DOM NEC POT) picks up Iliana(2) from the ashes with a Possession? (Or would this be contesting?) [NEC] Move a vampire from your ash heap to your ready region and move 1 blood from the blood bank to the vampire. And if so, can it be done while Iliana(1) is still in torpor? Can another methuselah take control of Iliana(2) by playing Daemonic Possession? [nec] Only usable when a minion controlled by another Methuselah has been burned since your last turn. Move that minion from his owner's ash heap to your ready region, put 1 blood or life from the blood bank on the minion and tap the minion. You now control the minion. [NEC] As above, but the minion is untapped. Rolf

"Rolf" <rolf.ed...@sars.uib.no> wrote in message news:491dde49.0501...@posting.google.com... > Iliana(1) plays an advanced Dual Form to create Iliana(2). > Later in the game Iliana(1) goes to torpor and Iliana(2) is burned. > I really hate this naming convention. It causes all sorts of trouble and misunderstandings... Call the vampire created by Dual Form some new name, like 'Jane'. > Is it possible that Gillespi Giovanni (aus DOM NEC POT) picks up > Iliana(2) from the ashes with a Possession? (Or would this be > contesting?) No, you cannot. Cards in the ash heap don't "remember" what they were in the active region. Since Jane is now just a copy of Dual Form in your ash heap (indistinguishable from a discarded Dual Form), it cannot be the target of Possession once burned. Hypothetical: If there were a way to return Jane to the ready region, then it wouldn't contest anything, since Dual Form creates non-unique vamipres... > > [NEC] Move a vampire from your ash heap to your ready region and move > 1 blood from the blood bank to the vampire. > > And if so, can it be done while Iliana(1) is still in torpor? > Moot. > Can another methuselah take control of Iliana(2) by playing Daemonic > Possession? > No. DaveZ Atom Weaver

> No, you cannot. Cards in the ash heap don't "remember" what they were in > the active region. Since Jane is now just a copy of Dual Form in your ash > heap (indistinguishable from a discarded Dual Form), it cannot be the target > of Possession once burned. > What about Ally cards? Do they remember if they were discarded or blocked or in the ready region? Do crypt cards remember if they were burned via Diablerie versus burned via Yong-Sun, Harmonist?

"Gregory Stuart Pettigrew" <ethe...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message news:2005012014...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net... [ quoted text not captured ] A card in the ash heap remembers when it got there and what it was before (in play controlled by X, a card in hand, whatever). But even that will be washed by trip through the ash heap if it is extracted from the ash heap. A blocked recruit ally card was never an ally in play or controlled by anyone, and there aren't any effects that currently distinguish between that state and simply being discarded.

> > > No, you cannot. Cards in the ash heap don't "remember" what they > > > were in the active region. Since Jane is now just a copy of Dual > > > Form in your ash heap (indistinguishable from a discarded Dual > > > Form), it cannot be the target of Possession once burned. > > > > > > > What about Ally cards? Do they remember if they were discarded or blocked > > or in the ready region? > > > > Do crypt cards remember if they were burned via Diablerie versus burned > > via Yong-Sun, Harmonist? > > A card in the ash heap remembers when it got there and what it was before > (in play controlled by X, a card in hand, whatever). > But what distinguishes an Ally card that remembers it was burned in combat (and is Daemonically Possessable) from a Third Tradition card that remembers that it was diablerized in combat (and is not Daemonically Possessable)? Or a Dual Form that was burned when its partner went to Torpor (and is not Daemonically Posessable)?

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote: > But what distinguishes an Ally card that remembers it was burned in combat > (and is Daemonically Possessable) from a Third Tradition card that > remembers that it was diablerized in combat (and is not Daemonically > Possessable)? Or a Dual Form that was burned when its partner went to > Torpor (and is not Daemonically Posessable)? The Ally card, when in your ash heap, is still an Ally card and thus still findable by effects looking for minions in your ash heap. Third Tradition and Dual Forms in your ash heap are not Vampire cards, they are action cards (i.e. they are Cardtype: Action). An effect like Daemonic Possession has no valid target with this two cards, because DP moves 'a minion from your ash heap', which 3rd and Dual Form aren't. -John Flournoy

> The Ally card, when in your ash heap, is still an Ally card and thus > still findable by effects looking for minions in your ash heap. > But it's not a minion, it's a card.

[ quoted text not captured ] Every card in the game is a card. Some cards are minions. Some are not. A similar analogy is Zip Gun, which is not a weapon card when not in play; when it is in your hand, you cannot play it via Disguised Weapon for instance, because it is a combat card - it doesn't become equipment with the Weapon designation until it is in play. (Nor can you look for it with an Arms Dealer.) Similarly, Dual Form and Third Tradition are Action cards that do not become vampire minions unless they are in play. When they are not in play, they do not have any inherent quality that makes them a minion (either Ally or Vampire) card. -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. The "Card Type" of the Renegade Garou is "Ally". This is another way of stating that Renegade Garou is an ally in your ash heap. The similar case cannot be made for "Third Tradition" and "Vampire". -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

But when Iliana(2) (aka Jane in a later post), leaves the ready region and then Iliana(1) (the vampire card) is burned, you can play Possession on Iliana(1) or another Methuselah's vampire can play Demonic Possession on her. So you just have to be careful about which vampire is going to the ash heap when you want to do Dual Form/Possession tricks. BTW I'm working on how to do Turbo Dual Form right now. Too bad The Baron doesn't have PRO. :P And Dual Form being a rare doesn't help either. Later, ~Rehlow

Rehlow wrote: > BTW I'm working on how to do Turbo Dual Form right now. Good luck. One point of information that might help: if the originating vamp has the Sargon Fragment, the Dual Form will have built-in NEC. Even if a The Combo-style turbo deck is out of the question, Possessing burned originals seems like a reasonable sideline for Dual Form vampires to get in to.