untapping during an action

I've recently been told that you can use Rutor's Hand to untap during an action, such as Domain Challenge, to escape burning pool for that minion. This was in response to my question on untapping an acting minion. I wanted to use Babble, at superior, to untap another methusela's acting minion, in the hopes that it would cancel the minion's action. So if I was being bled, I'd untap the minion, and hopefully the NRA rule would stop him from tapping and attempting to bleed me again. He said the action still continues, because there is nothing that says a minion must stay tapped during an action. Is that true?

deman...@msn.com schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] why would untapping him cancel the action? I would guess that only if the card says that it will cancel an action it will do so.

[ quoted text not captured ] The action still continues. There's nothing in the rules that says, "If a minion untaps during the action, the action fails." The Rutors Hand + Domain Challenge combo works just fine. You could also use Babble to untap someone else, but if you use it against an acting minion, it just helps them (unless they have Vampiric Disease, and were attempting an action that cost exactly how much blood they had, in which case you would cause their action to fizzle.) When asking rules questions, it's often a good idea to copy the card text into your post, because, at best, you'll answer the question for yourself, and at worst, you'll improve searchability in the future. I hope this helps. Ira Babble Reaction Card Text: [dem] Give another ready minion +1 intercept [DEM] Tap this vampire to untap another ready minion. Not usable by a blocking minion Rutor's Hand Action Card Text: +1 stealth action. [tha] Put this card on the acting vampire. The vampire takes 1 aggravated damage (damage not preventable). Beginning with your next turn, the vampire gets one additional untap during each of your minion phases for the remainder of the game. A vampire may only have one Rutor's Hand [THA] As above, but the aggravated damage may be prevented by burning 3 additional blood. Vampiric Disease Master Card Text: Choose a controlled vampire; put a disease counter on him or her if he or she does not have one. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood, or, if unable, loses all disease counters.

[ quoted text not captured ] In the rules, to take an action, you must be untapped. You may then tap, and take an action. Cards that allow tapped minions to use them are the exception. I don't think untapping during an action, or even as you begin to take the action, was put into consideration when making the rules. As far as timing and sequencing, if a methusela taps a vamp and declares a bleed, then I immediately untap it with babble, there's nothing in the rules that says he/she doesn't retap the vamp and continue the action. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, there's no ruling by LSJ that I can print out and show my play group that supports continuing an action untapped. I do use Vampiric Disease with Society of Leopold. Plus I could aid my cross table ally when he doesn't want to tap out, but I'm getting hounded by his prey. I just want to eliminate the ensuing arguements.

[ quoted text not captured ] why would he retap? where in the rules does it say that? simcof

> I'm just saying, there's > no ruling by LSJ that I can print out and show my play group that > supports continuing an action untapped. search self temptation author:lsj it is the first thread you will see listed, and clearly supported using an effect to untap before resolution of an action, and the action still succeeds

On Jul 31, 5:01 pm, demansp...@msn.com wrote: > In the rules, to take an action, you must be untapped. You may then > tap, and take an action. Cards that allow tapped minions to use them > are the exception. All true. > I don't think untapping during an action, or even > as you begin to take the action, was put into consideration when > making the rules. It doesn't matter... the point is that it's now possible, and the existing rules govern it. > As far as timing and sequencing, if a methusela taps > a vamp and declares a bleed, then I immediately untap it with babble, > there's nothing in the rules that says he/she doesn't retap the vamp > and continue the action. True. There also isn't anything in the rules that he doesn't immediately gain 30 pool. Should there be a rule about that? Of course not. Since the rules don't say anything that you need to be tapped to resolve an action successfully, you don't need to be tapped to resolve an action. The rules simply say... well, here it is: From the rulebook: http://white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ 6. Minion Phase Most of the activity in the game occurs in the minion phases. During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions. Only ready untapped minions can take actions, and taking an action taps the acting minion. ... Actually, having read that, I could see how it's possible that "taking an action" implies some sort of continuous effect. In English, if I'm "taking an action", that is an extended period of time, not instantaneous. In VTES, the interpretation is that "taking an action" is an instantaneous effect and means, "initiating an action," but perhaps the rulebook could be slightly more clear. Either way, I'm very confident in my answer to you, and well as the answers of other people on this thread. I suspect that LSJ will clarify soon, because he's nice like that. :) I hope this helps, Ira

In message <f89f15af-7c9a-4213...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups .com>, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes: >On Jul 31, 5:01 pm, demansp...@msn.com wrote: >> I don't think untapping during an action, or even >> as you begin to take the action, was put into consideration when >> making the rules. > >It doesn't matter... the point is that it's now possible, and the >existing rules govern it. It was possible even during Jyhad, though, although vampires who could exploit it would be thin on the ground. For example, a vampire with PRO/CEL could do something like: - Earth Meld (superior), and untap - Psyche! (possible with either minion) - Form of Mist in the Psyche! combat Form of Mist in a Psyche! combat was certainly possible in 1997, and the untap effect should not have been lost (unlike a continue action effect): http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/93c6e6220beb1663 -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > From the rulebook: > http://white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ > 6. Minion Phase > Most of the activity in the game occurs in the minion phases. During > your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions. Only ready > untapped minions can take actions, and taking an action taps the > acting minion. > > .... > > Actually, having read that, I could see how it's possible that "taking > an action" implies some sort of continuous effect. In English, if I'm > "taking an action", that is an extended period of time, not > instantaneous. In VTES, the interpretation is that "taking an action" > is an instantaneous effect and means, "initiating an action," but > perhaps the rulebook could be slightly more clear. In VTES, taking an action is continuous. "Take action", as given in the rules section you quote, is instantaneous and means the same, as you say, as "begin an action". > I suspect that LSJ will clarify soon, because he's nice like that. :) The FAQ back then was "could tapped minions strike (or do anything other than punching bag impersonations) in combat?", apparently due to the "natural" instinct to treat combat in this game as combat is treated in that other game. Any way, the answer then suits the acting question as much as the combat question: tapped/untapped state has no bearing on the minion's ability to do (or not to do) anything beyond what card text and rules text stipulate.