Temptation (for the rules-mongers)

I have been having fun using Temptations in the JOL games and was wondering if the following was a legal trick: Minion A bleeds methuselah b Minion B wakes and attempts to block Minion A plays Lost in crowds for 2 stealth Minion B plays Enhanced Senses for 2 intercept methuselah a burns the counters on a temptation to take control of minion B. Minion B can no longer block Minion A. Temptation states that you can burn the counters to take control of the minion during your minion phase, but it does not specify when. Like Heidelburg Castle, I am going to assume that this can not be done during combat. But how about in the middle of a block attempt? Another question. If you have somehow gained control of a minion you have tempted, it seems you can burn the counters on the temptation to get a second action with that minion during a minion phase. I believe that that is OK, but I'd like to get opinions first.

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Michael Kelly wrote: > I have been having fun using Temptations in the JOL games and was > wondering if the following was a legal trick: > > Minion A bleeds methuselah b > Minion B wakes and attempts to block > Minion A plays Lost in crowds for 2 stealth > Minion B plays Enhanced Senses for 2 intercept > methuselah a burns the counters on a temptation > to take control of minion B. Minion B can no longer > block Minion A. Ok. > Temptation states that you can burn the counters to > take control of the minion during your minion phase, > but it does not specify when. Like Heidelburg Castle, > I am going to assume that this can not be done during > combat. But how about in the middle of a block attempt? Remember the ruling is not "before combat begins" but "as combat is entered." And there is a ruling by [RTR] that Heidelburg castle cannot be used during combat. Also you cannot do anything else until the action either concludes or the action is blocked. If it's blocked then combat is immediatly entered. As far as I can tell there is no fast effects. But according to Darkness Unvield, which IS endorsed by White-Wolf and Wizards of the Coast, though some people that I have read on some newsgroups, hold this fact in question, says that: "In general, when more than one player wants to do something at the same time, priority is given to the player whose turn it is, and then actions proceed in turn order from there..." It's like bleeding a tapped player with Francois Villon with legal maniputions, aire of elation, and has the pulse of Canaille on him. (not necessarily your prey) and them reacting with a rat's warning, but since it is your turn you can tap your Louvre, if Francois is still the Prince of Paris, to tap the untapping reacting minion, to let Francois in for a total of 9 bleed. Say all that in one breath. > Another question. If you have somehow gained control > of a minion you have tempted, it seems you can burn > the counters on the temptation to get a second action > with that minion during a minion phase. I believe that > that is OK, but I'd like to get opinions first. The vampire is ready. All of the criteria is true (maybe either, corruption, or Grand Temple of Set used to gain control of the vampire in question), therefore the answer is true. Yes,. M.

>Minion A bleeds methuselah b >Minion B wakes and attempts to block >Minion A plays Lost in crowds for 2 stealth >Minion B plays Enhanced Senses for 2 intercept >methuselah a burns the counters on a temptation > to take control of minion B. Minion B can no longer > block Minion A. I Don't know that there is anything official to this but I would have to apply the Heidelburg rule to this as well, otherwise it is just annoying. However, the stupid guy trying to block with a tempted minion deserves what he gets. >Another question. If you have somehow gained control >of a minion you have tempted, it seems you can burn >the counters on the temptation to get a second action >with that minion during a minion phase. I believe that >that is OK, but I'd like to get opinions first. If you can get him via something else, Malk Dimentia, then You could get him to untap but he is still bound by the no repeat action regardless of subsequent untapping rules. So it isn't that helpful. HTH Stu

Michael Kelly <ke...@lmsc.lockheed.com> writes: >I have been having fun using Temptations in the JOL games and was >wondering if the following was a legal trick: >Minion A bleeds methuselah b >Minion B wakes and attempts to block >Minion A plays Lost in crowds for 2 stealth >Minion B plays Enhanced Senses for 2 intercept >methuselah a burns the counters on a temptation > to take control of minion B. Minion B can no longer > block Minion A. >Temptation states that you can burn the counters to >take control of the minion during your minion phase, >but it does not specify when. Like Heidelburg Castle, >I am going to assume that this can not be done during >combat. But how about in the middle of a block attempt? Obviously this creates problems. Changing the controller will not change his status as a blocker, and that would lead to an illegal situation, since you cannot block yourself. Add (house rule) errata to temptation that the counters can only be burned before actions (i.e., at the *start* of the minion phase). >Another question. If you have somehow gained control >of a minion you have tempted, it seems you can burn >the counters on the temptation to get a second action >with that minion during a minion phase. I believe that >that is OK, but I'd like to get opinions first. It's OK if you play it as written (allowing very strange timing issues, as you point out above). With the proposed errata, this abuse wouldn't be possible. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Voyager: http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | To boldly get lost where no Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | one has been lost before!

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > Add (house rule) errata to temptation that the counters > can only be burned before actions (i.e., at the *start* > of the minion phase). > Although that house rule would alleviate the problem, it also restricts the card more than necessary. With that fix I can't pound my opponent during combat and then take control after the combat is resolved and his blood level is within tempting distance. The option to take control in the middle of a minion phase is an unabusive and desirable aspect of the card which would be ruined.

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Stuart J. Pieloch wrote: > >Minion A bleeds methuselah b > >Minion B wakes and attempts to block > >Minion A plays Lost in crowds for 2 stealth > >Minion B plays Enhanced Senses for 2 intercept > >methuselah a burns the counters on a temptation > > to take control of minion B. Minion B can no longer > > block Minion A. > > I Don't know that there is anything official to this but I would have > to apply the Heidelburg rule to this as well, otherwise it is just > annoying. However, the stupid guy trying to block with a tempted > minion deserves what he gets. > > >Another question. If you have somehow gained control > >of a minion you have tempted, it seems you can burn > >the counters on the temptation to get a second action > >with that minion during a minion phase. I believe that > >that is OK, but I'd like to get opinions first. > > If you can get him via something else, Malk Dimentia, then You could > get him to untap but he is still bound by the no repeat action > regardless of subsequent untapping rules. So it isn't that helpful. > No, only if you play with "Sensible Jyhad Players Rules." There is no ruling that I have heard of that says that you can't take the same action that has been performed by the same minion. M.

[ quoted text not captured ] The "No repeat actions" is official now. Check out http://www.wizards.com/DCI//VTES_Rules.html for verification. [ quoted text not captured ]

sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >If the fix is too restrictive, then at least make this abuse >impossible by making a rule that you can burn Temptation ^^^ >counters on a minion you already control. "Cannot", that is. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Refuse Novacaine - http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Transcend Dental Medication! [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ> Add (house rule) errata to temptation that the counters LSJ> can only be burned before actions (i.e., at the *start* LSJ> of the minion phase). >Although that house rule would alleviate the problem, it >also restricts the card more than necessary. With that fix >I can't pound my opponent during combat and then take >control after the combat is resolved and his blood level >is within tempting distance. The option to take control >in the middle of a minion phase is an unabusive and >desirable aspect of the card which would be ruined. However, the ever more interesting interpritation of the Hedelburg Time Restriction Ruling is that you can only burn Temptation Counters Before any Given Minion Action. Not just once at the start of the minion phase but at Any Time during the minion phase when an action is not curently being taken/resolving. I.e. Before and after every minion acts or declines to. That way you can still pound him, but avoid the blocking minion taking thing. Anyway Stu

st...@atl.mindspring.com (Stuart J. Pieloch) writes: >LSJ> Add (house rule) errata to temptation that the counters >LSJ> can only be burned before actions (i.e., at the *start* >LSJ> of the minion phase). >MK>Although that house rule would alleviate the problem, it >MK>also restricts the card more than necessary. With that fix >MK>I can't pound my opponent during combat and then take >MK>control after the combat is resolved and his blood level >MK>is within tempting distance. The option to take control >MK>in the middle of a minion phase is an unabusive and >MK>desirable aspect of the card which would be ruined. >However, the ever more interesting interpritation of the Hedelburg >Time Restriction Ruling is that you can only burn Temptation Counters >Before any Given Minion Action. >Not just once at the start of the minion phase but at Any Time during >the minion phase when an action is not curently being taken/resolving. >I.e. Before and after every minion acts or declines to. >That way you can still pound him, but avoid the blocking minion taking >thing. I used the "overly" restricted fix to prevent the abuse that Mike pointed out - i.e., putting multiple Temptations on the same vampire (say, four or five), then burning the counters on one to take control, taking an action, burning the counters on the next to untap him, etc. If the fix is too restrictive, then at least make this abuse impossible by making a rule that you can burn Temptation counters on a minion you already control. Being under the influence of Temptation shouldn't give you a free set of Freak Drives. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 27 Jan 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > The "No repeat actions" is official now. Check out > > http://www.wizards.com/DCI//VTES_Rules.html > > for verification. > Thanks =) M.

Michael Kelly wrote: > > L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > > > Add (house rule) errata to temptation that the counters > > can only be burned before actions (i.e., at the *start* > > of the minion phase). > > > Although that house rule would alleviate the problem, it > also restricts the card more than necessary. With that fix > I can't pound my opponent during combat and then take > control after the combat is resolved and his blood level > is within tempting distance. The option to take control > in the middle of a minion phase is an unabusive and > desirable aspect of the card which would be ruined. Hmm, this is a tricky one. What you could rule is that you cannot take control of the vampire during the resolution of minion actions. ie. During Combat & voting (while actually casting votes)... -- Jeffrey Endres Undergrad B. Eng (Aerospace Avionics) Queensland University of Technology "Cinnamon and sugary, with softly spoken lies, You never know just how you look through other peoples eyes." Butthole Surfers, 'Pepper'

st...@atl.mindspring.com (Stuart J. Pieloch) writes: >>Being under the influence of Temptation shouldn't give you >>a free set of Freak Drives. >I don't see how this causes a problem under no repeat actions. It's not a problem as far as the game is concerned. But it is abusive - making the card work to perform a function it shouldn't be able to - untapping one of your own minions. >Personally, I would be much better off playing those Tempts on some >other minion and have more than one minion to bleed with. Then you shouldn't mind too much if a house rule preventing you from burning counters on a minion you already control is instated - since such a rule won't affect your play anyhow. The rule is just for "realism" sake - Temptation shouldn't have the ability to function as a Freak Drive. [ quoted text not captured ]

>>That way you can still pound him, but avoid the blocking minion taking >>thing. >I used the "overly" restricted fix to prevent the abuse that >Mike pointed out - i.e., putting multiple Temptations on the >same vampire (say, four or five), then burning the counters >on one to take control, taking an action, burning the counters >on the next to untap him, etc. >Being under the influence of Temptation shouldn't give you >a free set of Freak Drives. I don't see how this causes a problem under no repeat actions. I tempt (superior) a minion you control say five times. I bum's rush him and pund him down to one blood. I take control of him and bleed you with him. I 'retake control of him' and he does something else. I 'retake control' of him and he hunts. Now I can't retake control of him. anyway I can keep retaking control of him and have him bleed and attack and hunt and call a political action, but after that, I really don't want him to equip with anything or retain anyone since he's gong back to you as soon as I'm done with my turn. So even having multiple Tempts on him doesn't prove terribly useful. Since he is your minion. Either I will self destruct him or bleed with him and be done with it. Personally, I would be much better off playing those Tempts on some other minion and have more than one minion to bleed with. Stu [ quoted text not captured ]