Celerity+Dominate Gun deck [Jyhad]

Gwen Morse <goldmoo...@REMOVE.yahoo.com> wrote: > 'new' Thoughts Betrayed STILL trumps S:CE. Why Celerity? Because, when > guns have multiple strikes, they can be nasty :). Yep, I especially like .44 Magnum, superior Blur and Manstopper Rounds (or Glaser Rounds, whichever it was which gave +2 damage) - ta-daa, 10 damage first round. Few vampires can take that much blammo and stay unharmed (of course, Rolling with the Punches and Skin of Steel are your mortal enemies!) Things get even better when that gun was nowhere near when the combat began. I'd suggest that you add some Concealed Weapons (if your house rules allow it to be played without Obfuscate). > 1 Anvil (Brujah, 6, CE do PO pr > 1 Constanza Vinti (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, > 1 Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro (Malkavian, 6, au ce DO > 1 Didi Meyers (Malkavian, 5, au ce DO > 1 Dodd (Brujah Antitribu, 5, > 1 Donal O'Connor (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, > 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) > 1 Ingrid Rossler (Gangrel, 9, AN do FO Expensive indeed... And only eight? You need four more. Sarah Brando is an old favourite for any celerity-using decks. Jimmy Dunn is not bad too, even though he does not have dominate. That's what skill cards are for. About the only thing you need the DOM for is Thoughts Betrayed and well, you are not going to face S:CE all the time (I hope so)... > 5 Conditioning I'd consider some Govern the Unaligneds. They help bringing vamps in and you get +2 bleed too when you need it. And if you use the bleeds to get combat, you don't have to pay for Govern if you get blocked. > 3 Effective Management I'm not so sure about these... How many vamps are you going to bring in? -- -- for more info msaari finger msa...@cc.jyu.fi @jyu.fi 218 "was ist ist / was nicht ist ist möglich" -e.n.

On 1 Dec 1999 09:40:27 +0200, Mikko Saari <msa...@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> wrote: >Gwen Morse <goldmoo...@REMOVE.yahoo.com> wrote: >> 'new' Thoughts Betrayed STILL trumps S:CE. Why Celerity? Because, when >> guns have multiple strikes, they can be nasty :). > >Yep, I especially like .44 Magnum, superior Blur and Manstopper Rounds (or >Glaser Rounds, whichever it was which gave +2 damage) - ta-daa, 10 damage >first round. Few vampires can take that much blammo and stay unharmed (of >course, Rolling with the Punches and Skin of Steel are your mortal >enemies!) I thought it was fixed to read "not usable the first round a gun in used in a combat"? >Things get even better when that gun was nowhere near when the combat >began. I'd suggest that you add some Concealed Weapons (if your house >rules allow it to be played without Obfuscate). > >> 1 Anvil (Brujah, 6, CE do PO pr >> 1 Constanza Vinti (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, >> 1 Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro (Malkavian, 6, au ce DO >> 1 Didi Meyers (Malkavian, 5, au ce DO >> 1 Dodd (Brujah Antitribu, 5, >> 1 Donal O'Connor (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, >> 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) >> 1 Ingrid Rossler (Gangrel, 9, AN do FO > >Expensive indeed... And only eight? You need four more. Sarah Brando is an That was my mistake. Forgot to save it after I rounded out the crypt and jiggled the cards a bit. My planned crypt goes something like this: Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 20, Max: 32, Avg: 6.44] 1 Anvil (Brujah, 6, CE do PO pr th, Primogen) 2 Constanza Vinti (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, Prince) 1 Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro (Malkavian, 6, au ce DO po) 2 Didi Meyers (Malkavian, 5, au ce DO ob) 1 Dodd (Brujah Antitribu, 5, CE do pr) 2 Donal O'Connor (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, Prince) 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) 1 Melissa Barton (Ventrue, 5, ce do fo pr) 1 Sarah Brando (Brujah Antitribu, 3, CE) >> 5 Conditioning > >I'd consider some Govern the Unaligneds. They help bringing vamps in and >you get +2 bleed too when you need it. And if you use the bleeds to get >combat, you don't have to pay for Govern if you get blocked. Good suggestion, converted over Conditioning to Governs. >> 3 Effective Management > >I'm not so sure about these... How many vamps are you going to bring in? I'm not sure, but, I know (think I know?) they belong in decks whose crypts are on the expensive side and/or have lots of dupes. I have both! Also, you made mention (and I snipped it), that the dominate was only in for Thoughts Betrayed. Actually, it's in for TB...bleed bounce, and Govern the Unaligned (originally Conditioning). Here's the library once again, both adjusted for cards I had wanted the first time, and the few changes mentioned. I don't see 'room' for ammo cards, but, I have the feeling I'm already trying to do 'too much' with this deck already (and, I have that problem with all the decks I design myself...I'm very unfocused). Library: (80 cards) 7 .44 Magnum 1 Al's Army Apparatus 1 Asylum Hunting Ground 3 Blood Doll 7 Blur 3 Bum's Rush 4 Celerity 5 Deflection 3 Delaying Tactics 2 Dominate 3 Effective Management 6 Flash 5 Govern the Unaligned 2 Information Highway 6 Quickness 6 Side Strike 6 Taste of Vitae 7 Thoughts Betrayed 2 Vast Wealth 1 Warzone Hunting Ground

Gwen Morse <gold...@DELETE.geocities.com> writes: >>> 3 Effective Management >> >>I'm not so sure about these... How many vamps are you going to bring in? > >I'm not sure, but, I know (think I know?) they belong in decks whose >crypts are on the expensive side and/or have lots of dupes. I have >both! I can't think of any reason Effective Management belongs in expensive crypts. Quite the reverse: I find them only worthwhile in weeny decks. You're going to routinely bring out more vamps right from the start in weeny decks as opposed to big vampire decks when you'll usually spend as much of your initial pool as you can stand on your first four vampires (often not bringing the fourth one out at first) and then stop, at least until you've ousted someone or otherwise managed to work some pool gain somehow. By that time, you'll have had plenty of opportunities to spend one to look at a new vampire. So what's the point of an Effective Management? You want to look at two big guys sitting pointlessly in your inactive area (in the early going) rather than one? Saving one pool? Use an Ascendence, more flexible if you don't need the new vampire at the moment and just as profitable, poolwise. (Actually, there's almost certainly better choices for master cards than Ascendence, but Ascendence at least is better in this type of deck than Effective Management.) In a weeny deck, however, you'll get your initial supply of vamps out shortly and still have pool left over to invest. In that case, an Effective Management can be a welcome bypass of the turn skipped to bring a new vampire out of your crypt. The Master card that's good for big vampire decks, IMHO, is Information Highway. Bring those big guys out fast, fast, FAST.... Fred

Gwen Morse wrote: > Mikko Saari <msa...@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> wrote: > >Gwen Morse <goldmoo...@REMOVE.yahoo.com> wrote: > >> 'new' Thoughts Betrayed STILL trumps S:CE. Why Celerity? Because, when > >> guns have multiple strikes, they can be nasty :). > > > >Yep, I especially like .44 Magnum, superior Blur and Manstopper Rounds (or > >Glaser Rounds, whichever it was which gave +2 damage) - ta-daa, 10 damage > >first round. Few vampires can take that much blammo and stay unharmed (of > >course, Rolling with the Punches and Skin of Steel are your mortal > >enemies!) > > I thought it was fixed to read "not usable the first round a gun in > used in a combat"? Nope. No errata has been issued for Glaser Rounds (aside from the change in the timing of ammo cards in general and the obvious restriction of the effect of ammo). Effective card text: Glaser Rounds Cardtype: Combat Only usable {before resolution of a gun's strike}. Minion inflicts +2 damage each strike {with that weapon} for the remainder of this combat. Not usable the first time the gun is used in a [given] combat. This is an ammo card. No more than one ammo card can be used on a gun card each combat. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

In article <829auc$6ns$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote: > >Gwen Morse <gold...@DELETE.geocities.com> writes: > >>>> 3 Effective Management >>> >>>I'm not so sure about these... How many vamps are you going to bring in? >> >>I'm not sure, but, I know (think I know?) they belong in decks whose >>crypts are on the expensive side and/or have lots of dupes. I have >>both! > >I can't think of any reason Effective Management belongs in expensive >crypts. Quite the reverse: I find them only worthwhile in weeny decks. [snip] Expensive management isn't worth the oppurtunity cost here. You'd be better off with Blood Dolls, or Haven Uncovereds. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

<SNIP> > >In a weeny deck, however, you'll get your initial supply of vamps out >shortly and still have pool left over to invest. In that case, an >Effective Management can be a welcome bypass of the turn skipped to >bring a new vampire out of your crypt. Personally, I think an Information Highway is far better for a weenie deck than (any number of) Effective Management. Effective Management brings a vampire from the crypt to the uncontrolled region. Information Highway, with the two extra transfers that it grants, basically does the same thing (use four transfers and one blood to bring a weenie-vampire from the crypt to the uncontrolled region, and use the remaining two transfers to bring it out <the definition of a weenie, in my playgroup, is generally a vampire whose capacity is two or less>). The downsides to Information Highway, as compared to Effective Management, is that a) it is unique and a common, and likely to be contested, and; b) moving that vampire from the crypt to the uncontrolled region will cost one pool (a cost which is not associated with Effective Management). Information Highway is superior to Effective Management, though, in that a) it is permament, and therefore; b) will take up less room in the library. For example, rather than having four Effective Managements in my library, I would much rather have two Information Highways, one Tribute to the Master (to overcome that one pool cost from moving vampires from the crypt to the uncontrolled region...plus interest!), and one other miscellaneous master card (such as The Barrens, or a Deal with the Devil). >The Master card that's good for big vampire decks, IMHO, is Information >Highway. Bring those big guys out fast, fast, FAST.... Agreed. Mattrim. mattrim...@home.com

>I can't think of any reason Effective Management belongs in expensive >crypts. Quite the reverse: I find them only worthwhile in weeny decks. >You're going to routinely bring out more vamps right from the start >in weeny decks as opposed to big vampire decks when you'll usually spend >as much of your initial pool as you can stand on your first four >vampires (often not bringing the fourth one out at first) and then stop, >at least until you've ousted someone or otherwise managed to work some >pool gain somehow. By that time, you'll have had plenty of opportunities >to spend one to look at a new vampire. So what's the point of an >Effective Management? >You want to look at two big guys sitting pointlessly >in your inactive area (in the early going) rather than one? Saving one >pool? Use an Ascendence, more flexible if you don't need the new vampire >at the moment and just as profitable, poolwise. (Actually, there's >almost certainly better choices for master cards than Ascendence, but >Ascendence at least is better in this type of deck than Effective >Management.) Well, I think the point about Effective Management that Gwen was trying to make, is that if you end up with a bad draw. I, for example, have quite a few large vampires in my Tremere deck, even though the average cap is 5-6. Therefore it's unlikely that I'll end up with all high caps, but if I do, I'm in a ton of trouble. What Effective Management allows in these situations, is to get another chance to get (hopefully and likely) a smaller vampire. Spending transfers on drawing a new vampire only shortens your demise but Effective Management avoids that. Of course as you say, you could get extra unlucky and have Effective draw another big cap but oh well then. Furthermore, if this seems to be a problem, you'll need multiple copies. Multiple Effectives work fine, but multiple Information's may be harmful in the long run (I discard my 4th Highway....) While decks full of large vamps may be better off with Information Highway (and perhaps even...do I dare say it? Errated Tomb of Ramses....), a deck with a handful of large vamps might find Effective Managements more useful. Just a few thoughts. Halcyan 2

Gwen Morse <gold...@DELETE.geocities.com> wrote: > I thought it was fixed to read "not usable the first round a gun in > used in a combat"? At least there is no such errata... Well, if that's the case then it's not that good. But still, the other one... Blurred .44 gets from 6 damage to 9 damage. Which is nice. I checked and clarifications said "Must wait until the second time a given gun is used in a given combat." so I'd say it works. [Effective Management] > I'm not sure, but, I know (think I know?) they belong in decks whose > crypts are on the expensive side and/or have lots of dupes. I have > both! Well, I only use them when I have lots of small vampires. If I use bigger vamps, I don't often get my beginning crypt into play... > Also, you made mention (and I snipped it), that the dominate was only > in for Thoughts Betrayed. Actually, it's in for TB...bleed bounce, and > Govern the Unaligned (originally Conditioning). Yes, but if you noticed the capitalization, I was talking about superior dominate. Thought's Betrayed needs taht, but especially since you changed the Conditionings to Governs, you don't need it that much for other uses. -- -- for more info msaari finger msa...@cc.jyu.fi @jyu.fi 213 "was ist ist / was nicht ist ist möglich" -e.n.

On 6 Dec 1999 09:03:19 +0200, Mikko Saari <msa...@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> wrote: >Gwen Morse <gold...@DELETE.geocities.com> wrote: >[Effective Management] >> I'm not sure, but, I know (think I know?) they belong in decks whose >> crypts are on the expensive side and/or have lots of dupes. I have >> both! > >Well, I only use them when I have lots of small vampires. If I use bigger >vamps, I don't often get my beginning crypt into play... > As per several posts stating the same thing, I've obviously mis-remembered the way I *thought* Effective Management was to be used. For some reason, I thought it was to help bring out big vamps. It's actually meant to bring out small vamps, and, as it was also discussed, Information Highway can often be more useful (though, it has it's own problems). I still stand behind the second half of my statement - it's useful to bring out extra vamps if you have lots of dupes. There's nothing worse than taking time and pool to make up for drawing dupes of both your starting vamps in your opening hand - especially since you 'need' to take your first few rounds to bring them out (and therefore don't have spare influence to 'invest' to juggle vamps). I also digested the information on Glaser rounds (effective after the first strike of the first round), but, I still don't see where I have 'room' in the deck for them (adding 4, and taking out the 2 Information Highways, still leaves me 'over' by 2 cards from what I wanted.) Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 5.92] 1 Anvil (Brujah, 6, CE do PO pr th, Primogen) 2 Constanza Vinti (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, Prince) 1 Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro (Malkavian, 6, au ce DO po) 2 Didi Meyers (Malkavian, 5, au ce DO ob) 1 Dodd (Brujah Antitribu, 5, CE do pr) 2 Donal O'Connor (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, Prince) 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) 1 Melissa Barton (Ventrue, 5, ce do fo pr) 1 Sarah Brando (Brujah Antitribu, 3, CE) 7 .44 Magnum 1 Al's Army Apparatus 1 Asylum Hunting Ground 3 Blood Doll 7 Blur 3 Bum's Rush 4 Celerity 5 Deflection 3 Delaying Tactics 2 Dominate 3 Effective Management 6 Flash 4 Glaser Rounds 5 Govern the Unaligned [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <ivtYOPb7wZ+SxH...@4ax.com>, Gwen Morse <gold...@DELETE.geocities.com> wrote: [snippy stuff] > > Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 5.92] > 1 Anvil (Brujah, 6, CE do PO pr > th, Primogen) > 2 Constanza Vinti (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, > Prince) > 1 Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro (Malkavian, 6, au ce DO > po) > 2 Didi Meyers (Malkavian, 5, au ce DO > ob) > 1 Dodd (Brujah Antitribu, 5, > CE do pr) > 2 Donal O'Connor (Brujah, 8, CE DO PO, > Prince) > 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) > 1 Melissa Barton (Ventrue, 5, ce do fo > pr) > 1 Sarah Brando (Brujah Antitribu, 3, > CE) > > 7 .44 Magnum I really don't think you need this many .44s. I'd reduce it to 5 at most. There's no way you're gonna be buying seven of them, and you'll probably draw more than you want. I think it's usually more effective in a weapons deck to play with fewer weapons and more ways to get them onto your vamps from your deck (like the Vast Wealth and Al's that you're using, for example). > 1 Al's Army Apparatus > 1 Asylum Hunting Ground > 3 Blood Doll All good, although I think this deck would benefit from having even more pool gain. A couple Minion Tap/5th Traditions might work, with 2 Donal and 2 Constanza. Otherwise, another Blood Doll or two might be a good idea. > 7 Blur > 3 Bum's Rush You might need either more ways to pick fights or else more +bleed to kill your prey faster. > 4 Celerity I think 3 Cel masters might be enough, as seven of your twelve vamps are already superior. You might even go with 2 if you could switch Gloria Giovanni for someone with at least inferior cel. > 5 Deflection > 3 Delaying Tactics Not sure I'd put these in here; great card, but you have to be untapped to use it and I don't think you want to leave your vamps sitting around untapped. (I'm talking about the Delaying Tactics rather than the Deflections, although the 'have to be untapped' applies to Deflections as well so maybe you should add Wakes or drop all eight of these.) > 2 Dominate Eight of your vamps have DOM already... maybe just 1? > 3 Effective Management Sure, this is good when you have lots of duplicates in your crypt, but 3 sets of 2 isn't *that* high on dupes in my opinion. Six sets of 2 is high on dupes. With three pairs, you'll most likely get at least three different vamps to look at out of your original four, and with the capacities you're using and wanting to put guns on, you probably can't afford more than three to start anyway. I'd say turn 'em into pool gain or something. The Rack might go well in this deck. > 6 Flash > 4 Glaser Rounds Personally I'd use Manstoppers instead; although they do one less damage with superior Blur, they do the same amount at inferior, and are playable even if you only get one strike your first round. > 5 Govern the Unaligned Good; more might be better. > 6 Quickness I think this is gratuitous. When do you need four strikes rather than three? Why not play with a couple more Blurs instead, or maybe some Acrobatics? More Tastes would also go over well, with all these cards that cost blood, and the potential for very high-damage rounds with Manstoppers and .44s. Or maybe some Pursuits, as you can use the extra maneuvers. > 6 Side Strike Great card. > 6 Taste of Vitae > 7 Thoughts Betrayed > 2 Vast Wealth > 1 Warzone Hunting Ground All good. Don't forget that you still need to be at long against an Immortal Grapple pot-combat deck, since Torn Signpost, Flash, Immortal Grapple, and Blur are all still playable under Thoughts Betrayed. Josh "I went away but now I'm back" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.