Quick question on NRA
If the action descibed on a card is the same basic action, even if the
card to perform the action is a different card, does it violate the
NRA?
Example: Democritus uses 3rd Tradition Progeny to create a weenie. The
action is successful and he untaps with Freak Drive. Can he then use
The Embrace to do it again (different card but same outcome) or does
that violate the NRA?
What about Ian Forestal creating a gargoyle, freakdriving and then
embracing? Are those considered repeat actions? or is there something
fundamentally different about embracing and creating a gargoyle?
Intuitively, it seems that the NRA is violated since, if I bleed with
Computer Hacking, freakdrive, then bleed with Force of Will the NRA is
violated--but the argument given in the game where this question arose
was that a bleed action is a well defined action, no matter what card
you use to initiate the action, at it's core, it's still a bleed so
NRA would apply, while Third Tradition and The Embrace or Create
Gargoyle and Embrace are different actions at their core, illustrated
by the difference in cost, ability, and effect. Is that correct?
"Ped Xing" <ped_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51ecf271.02051...@posting.google.com...
> Quick question on NRA
>
> If the action descibed on a card is the same basic action, even if the
> card to perform the action is a different card, does it violate the
> NRA?
Only if the action is one of the basic action types; bleed, hunt, equip,
employ retainer, recruit ally, political action, leave torpor, rescue a
vampire from torpor, and diablerize a vampire in torpor.
> Example: Democritus uses 3rd Tradition Progeny to create a weenie. The
> action is successful and he untaps with Freak Drive. Can he then use
> The Embrace to do it again (different card but same outcome) or does
> that violate the NRA?
No. Because "create a vampire" is not one of the basic action types.
> What about Ian Forestal creating a gargoyle, freakdriving and then
> embracing? Are those considered repeat actions? or is there something
> fundamentally different about embracing and creating a gargoyle?
Not a repeat action, again, because neither of those actions are one on the
basic types.
> Intuitively, it seems that the NRA is violated since, if I bleed with
> Computer Hacking, freakdrive, then bleed with Force of Will the NRA is
> violated--but the argument given in the game where this question arose
> was that a bleed action is a well defined action, no matter what card
> you use to initiate the action, at it's core, it's still a bleed so
> NRA would apply, while Third Tradition and The Embrace or Create
> Gargoyle and Embrace are different actions at their core, illustrated
> by the difference in cost, ability, and effect. Is that correct?
The argument was essentially correct:
Pertinent NRA text:
"A given minion may not repeat an action, by action type, in a single turn
(whether the first action was successful or not). The defined "action types"
are the ones defined in the rulebook: bleed, hunt, equip, employ retainer,
recruit ally, political action, leave torpor, rescue a vampire from torpor,
and diablerize a vampire in torpor.
If an action card is used to perform one of these actions, that action is
considered to be of that type. If it is not one of those actions (such as
Bum's Rush), then it is a type of its own, by card name."
I would hazard a guess at the reason why you can Embrace/3rd Trad but not
Computer Hack/Bleed is related to the fact that there are defined action
types in the rulebook. If we tried to interperet a card's type by it's
effect then it would be open to ambiguity whereas the types in the rulebook
are clearly defined and simple. A good example of ambiguity is your
Embrace/Create Gargoyle example.
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<ue6asbm...@news.supernews.com>...
> "Ped Xing" <ped_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:51ecf271.02051...@posting.google.com...
> > Quick question on NRA
> >
> > If the action descibed on a card is the same basic action, even if the
> > card to perform the action is a different card, does it violate the
> > NRA?
>
> Only if the action is one of the basic action types; bleed, hunt, equip,
> employ retainer, recruit ally, political action, leave torpor, rescue a
> vampire from torpor, and diablerize a vampire in torpor.
Ok then, what about if Mathias uses Spirit Marionette to puppet a
minion into bleeding it's own methuselah. Can he then freak drive and
bleed on his own, or since the effect of the Spirt Mar was to bleed
does NRA kick in?
Relatedly if NRA does not kick in, can he use Spirit Mar at basic
Obeah to do the subsequent bleed action?
Thanks in advanced for all the good answers!
-Ped
Ped Xing wrote:
> Ok then, what about if Mathias uses Spirit Marionette to puppet a
> minion into bleeding it's own methuselah. Can he then freak drive and
> bleed on his own, or since the effect of the Spirt Mar was to bleed
> does NRA kick in?
If you're referring to the [OBE] version of SM, then fine. That
action is not a bleed. Matthias is free to bleed later that turn.
> Relatedly if NRA does not kick in, can he use Spirit Mar at basic
> Obeah to do the subsequent bleed action?
No. He cannot repeat the same action card.
The NRA does "kick in" - it just doesn't prevent him from bleeding,
since he didn't bleed.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> Ok then, what about if Mathias uses Spirit Marionette to puppet a
> minion into bleeding it's own methuselah. Can he then freak drive and
> bleed on his own,
Yes, because he has not bled this turn (though his puppet did).
> or since the effect of the Spirt Mar was to bleed
> does NRA kick in?
The effect of the Spirit Marionette (SM) was not to bleed, it was to
gain control of another minion, and force that minion to take an
action--one separate from SM itself.
> Relatedly if NRA does not kick in, can he use Spirit Mar at basic
> Obeah to do the subsequent bleed action?
No. NRA did not mark Matthias as having bled (because he has not),
but it DID mark him as having performed "Spirit Marionette". SM at
basic is both a "Spirit Marionette" action and a "bleed" action, and
since Matthias has already performed a "Spirit Marionette" action, he
cannot perform another one.