[LSJ] Inappropriate Language

In the 2004 Judge Penalty Guidelines there is: --- 151. Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Minor Definition: Minor Unsportsmanlike Conduct is defined as behavior that may be disruptive to a person at the tournament, but has no significant impact on the operation of the tournament in any way. Example: (A) A player uses inappropriate language. (B) A player loudly demands to a judge that her opponent receive a penalty. Philosophy: Different levels of Unsportsmanlike conduct should be penalized accordingly. The head judge is always the final authority on what constitutes Unsportsmanlike conduct and is free to interpret the guidelines as he or she sees fit for the appropriate situation. Penalty: Warning. --- Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate language"? I'm asking because I seem to have a problem with grasping the thin line the designers thought was apporopriate between the game and reality. Therefor what I think is inappropriate (e.g. harsh cussing, offensive personal remarks, etc.) could just be a legitimate part of acting on a role. In fact, it makes me wonder whether "inappropriate" in the sense of "inappropriate to an age-old methuselah" (the role we are supposedly playing in this card game) is not basically using non-archaic vocabulary or pronounciation. Or is the distinction between during-the-game tabletalk (where everything is allowed) and between-the-games smalltalk (where the players are out of their roles, and therefor are subject to the rules of having to restrain themselves in terms of getting personal)? The point seems to be being disruptive to the person - but I'm not sure what to determine that upon. Is the decisive element whether the offended player is personally disrupted by something? Or is it whether the judge would be, in the player's place, offended by the offense? Or is it in accordance with some specific social/moral codes? -- Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsy3whr...@news.chello.hu... > Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate > language"? When someone says, "There should be card limits in this game." in response to be being Rotschrecked the sixth time. Fred

Daneel wrote: > Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate > language"? Whatever is not appropriate. > I'm asking because I seem to have a problem with > grasping the thin line the designers thought was > apporopriate between the game and reality. Therefor > what I think is inappropriate (e.g. harsh cussing, > offensive personal remarks, etc.) could just be a > legitimate part of acting on a role. Could be. If everyone is in agreement that it is a legitimate part of the role, then it is. If not, then you get a judge to determine who's right. -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Daneel wrote: > In the 2004 Judge Penalty Guidelines there is: > Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate > language"? In practice, it is up to the judge. > I'm asking because I seem to have a problem with > grasping the thin line the designers thought was > apporopriate between the game and reality. I guess so. > The point seems to be being disruptive to the person > - but I'm not sure what to determine that upon. No. > Is the decisive element whether the offended player is > personally disrupted by something? No. > Or is it whether > the judge would be, in the player's place, offended > by the offense? No. > Or is it in accordance with some > specific social/moral codes? No. The judge determines what is or isn't appropriate. -Robert

On 23 Oct 2005 09:51:42 -0700, Robert Goudie <rob...@vtesinla.org> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> The point seems to be being disruptive to the person >> - but I'm not sure what to determine that upon. > > No. Minor Unsportsmanlike Conduct is defined as behavior that may be disruptive to a person at the tournament, but has no significant impact on the operation of the tournament in any way. Please read the rules being asked about before replying. -- Bye, Daneel

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:51:06 GMT, LSJ <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate >> language"? > > Whatever is not appropriate. Based on what? What guidelines should a judge use when determining whether something is appropriate? >> I'm asking because I seem to have a problem with >> grasping the thin line the designers thought was >> apporopriate between the game and reality. Therefor >> what I think is inappropriate (e.g. harsh cussing, >> offensive personal remarks, etc.) could just be a >> legitimate part of acting on a role. > > Could be. If everyone is in agreement that it is > a legitimate part of the role, then it is. > > If not, then you get a judge to determine who's > right. Based on what? What guidelines should a judge use when determining whether something is appropriate? -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate > language"? I'm pretty sure that rule exists to give the judge the ability to warn/eject someone for consistiently yelling "Fuck you fucko! Fuckity fucky fucko!" in a store filled with children. Or of one of the players is being verbally abusive to other players. >Therefor what I think is inappropriate (e.g. harsh cussing, offensive personal > remarks, etc.) could just be a legitimate part of acting on a role. Umm, I think you are thinking way too hard. The rule on "inappropriate language" is liscence for the judge to jude that someone's language is inappropriate and penalize them accordingly. Inappropriate language might be screaming "fuck" in a store filled with 10 year olds. It might be verbally abusing your opponents. I don't think whether or not it is "part of a role" is relevant at all. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot, easily spilled liquids to naked people." -Brittni Meil

Daneel wrote: > Based on what? Based on what the judge thinks is anappropriate. > What guidelines should a judge use when determining > whether something is appropriate? His own judgement. That is why he is a judge. > Based on what? Based on what the judge thinks is anappropriate. > What guidelines should a judge use when determining > whether something is appropriate? His own judgement. That is why he is a judge. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Daneel wrote: >>Based on what? > > Based on what the judge thinks is anappropriate. > >>What guidelines should a judge use when determining >>whether something is appropriate? > > His own judgement. That is why he is a judge. > >>Based on what? > > Based on what the judge thinks is anappropriate. > >>What guidelines should a judge use when determining >>whether something is appropriate? > > His own judgement. That is why he is a judge. Correct. This sort of scheme is sometimes called "community standards", if that term helps. If not, then, just use the term "judgment". [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I read it. Thanks. The general definition talking about behavior that "may be disruptive to a person at the tournament" is not the same as "being disruptive to a person". The judge doesn't have to prove or even find evidence that it disrupted a person at the event. The judge only needs to decide whether or not the behavior in general may be disruptive in nature. For instance, I was once warned for language even though the judge hadn't polled all of the players and audience to find out if any one of them found my language disruptive. -Robert

Robert Goudie wrote: > For instance, I was once warned for language even though the judge > hadn't polled all of the players and audience to find out if any one of > them found my language disruptive. For awhile, I had a pretty good streak going of being verbally warned once for language in every single tournament I was in. I think it finally ended after one DragonCon after it was brought up, I said "Wait, I haven't had my warning yet", and yelled over to the judge, "Hey, Scott! Fuck!" I was promptly issued a blank stare and a warning. I said "Thanks!" and continued playing. I was unable to get warned under anything but more appropriate circumstances after explaining it later. =) -- Derek insert clever quotation here

LSJ wrote: > This sort of scheme is sometimes called "community > standards", if that term helps. If not, then, just > use the term "judgment". Alternately, you can use Rule #1: Don't Be A Dick. You can't find Rule #1 in the book anywhere, but you can find a lot of rules that are very elaborate paraphrases of Rule #1. It is sometimes astonishing which particular rule ends up applying when a judge is seeking an excuse to enforce Rule #1 on a player. Not surprisingly, often the rule is "Inappropriate Language." [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:17:17 GMT, LSJ <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote: > Correct. > > This sort of scheme is sometimes called "community > standards", if that term helps. If not, then, just > use the term "judgment". I thought that according to the official viewpoint, playing the role of Methuselah in VTES overruled the standard "community standards" as long as no physical harm was done to another player. Hence the question. I see a contradiction here, and that is why I am looking for guidelines - preferably guidelines that can be uniformly applied to all instances of normal social ethics conflicting with VTES. I'm trying to grasp the exact conditions which can determine whether such a violation is an integral part of VTES and as such can be expected when one sits down to play, or whether it is beyond the scope of the game and can therefor be expected to be subject to the rules of normal social conduct. But I guess, the bottomline is that no such guidelines exist / can be given - which basically makes judging this violation an ultimately subjective task. -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > I thought that according to the official viewpoint, > playing the role of Methuselah in VTES overruled the > standard "community standards" as long as no physical > harm was done to another player. What are you talking about? I can't for the life of me see how "I'm roleplaying" could be a viable defense of "I'm being an abusive dick". If someone is being an abusive dick, I don't care whether or not he is "roleplaying". As a judge, I'll advise him to stop being an abusive dick. As a player, I'll advise him to stop being an abusive dick, and when logic fails, I'll appeal to the judge to make him stop being an abusive dick. > I'm trying to > grasp the exact conditions which can determine > whether such a violation is an integral part of VTES > and as such can be expected when one sits down to play, > or whether it is beyond the scope of the game and can > therefor be expected to be subject to the rules of > normal social conduct. The exact conditions are easy to grasp--if someone is being an abusive dick? They are violating the rules. If someone is making other players uncomfortable via their use of language, they are violating the rules. > But I guess, the bottomline is that no such guidelines > exist / can be given - which basically makes judging > this violation an ultimately subjective task. A lot of judging is ultimately a subjective task. That is why we have judges. -Peter

Daneel wrote: [snip] > > Or is the distinction between during-the-game > tabletalk (where everything is allowed) and I should point out that on tournament, at the table, not everything is allowed, you can try to "force" a player to make mistakes by talking abusively to him, that's fair I think, but if you cross the line all of us have drawn in our subconscient, then you're being disruptive. I think is up to the judge to see if that line was crossed, tough job, IMHO. [snip] Luis Santos

Daneel wrote: > I thought that according to the official viewpoint, > playing the role of Methuselah in VTES overruled the > standard "community standards" as long as no physical > harm was done to another player. Hence the question. Daneel, i am always wondering why you have so much problems understanding what a game is. First of all: it is not reality. So if you are in role and treat the other player in role, all things are ok. If Orpheus, as sometimes playing his True Brujah, announces: We will go back in time, so the flood can wash your bones away, by bleeding me for 6. That is obviously not inappropriate language, because he addresses me as a Methuselah. If someone adresses me "skinhead" because i have no hair, he wants to insult me. - inappropriate language.

[ quoted text not captured ] I think this is completely dependent of playgroup standards. In some it might be considered offensive if you call someone who just burned your third vamp a f*%&*$§ a%&*)$(§ w"§$%&"$, here in Vienna this is taken as a compliment. my 2cents Chris.QJ

If you are hairless but you are using a Blood Brother deck it can be appropriate language... We have 2-3 hairless (or shaved) players and we will address them in many "inappropriate" ways... but only for play. The words are important but also the mood in which they are said. For example: making some reference to the "night job" of the mother of someone that block a +6/+7 stealth hunt action doesn't sound inappropriate in my group... (to clarify the exclamation: "son of a B#@$%, you got me again...") Best deranges, RavATwoFaces

[ quoted text not captured ] What is appropriate in private, with your group of acquintances, and what is appropriate _in a public tournament_ are two different things, and only the second is relevant to a discussion of how to adjudicate a _tournament_.

> Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate > language"? > verbal abuse, excessive loudness, distracting talk with persons not at the table in question, talk by persons not at the table in question... -Gregory Stuart Pettigrew (Tournament Rule is quoted below.) [ quoted text not captured ]

rdco...@gmail.com wrote: > What is appropriate in private, with your group of acquintances, and > what is appropriate _in a public tournament_ are two different things, > and only the second is relevant to a discussion of how to adjudicate a > _tournament_. And to add on, it also depends on who is being adressed. It might be perfectly acceptible in your playgroup to verbally abuse your friends in casual play, but if I sit down to play and someone starts verbally abusing me, even if it is in theoretical "fun", I'll ask them to stop, as it is annoying, especially from someone I don't know. If they don't stop, I'll ask the judge to make them stop. We have a local player who has a tendancy, in casual play, to make endless cracks about yer mom (ya know--Sackett). Which is fine when we are playing casually with friends. As a judge, I do my very darndest to reign in that behavior when we have people from other play groups in tournaments, if for no other reason that I don't want Sackett getting punched in the face. [ quoted text not captured ]

Hello Daneel, >>> Question: What, in practice, constitutes "inappropriate >>> language"? >> >> Whatever is not appropriate. > > What guidelines should a judge use when determining > whether something is appropriate? Though I personally think this topic is pretty straightforward, if you have questions about it, I recommend the use of a case study. Describe a *specific* example, and then experienced judges will share how they would deal with the situation. If you ask about the general case, the answer from LSJ will almost always be "the judge uses his judgement," which is absolutely correct, helpful in some ways, and useless in other ways. If you ask about a *specific case* of judgement, then LSJ probably won't answer, but you'll still get useful feedback from experienced judges who will share their opinions. I continue to believe that case studies are one of the most effective ways to teach judges, and to create a consistency of judgement among judges (which I think should be a goal.) Ira

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > I continue to believe that case studies are one of the most effective > ways to teach judges, and to create a consistency of judgement among > judges (which I think should be a goal.) Ira, why i can understand your argument, to have a very consistent field of VTES tournaments, i still think it is wrong. If all judges would judge the same (purely hypothetical), they could not see, what other judges are doing different and maybe better. And players had no choice what judge they would prefer. It is simple darwinism. More diversity makes for better judging. Frank

x5m...@gmx.de wrote: > ira...@gmail.com wrote: > > > I continue to believe that case studies are one of the most effective > > ways to teach judges, and to create a consistency of judgement among > > judges (which I think should be a goal.) > > Ira, why i can understand your argument, to have a very consistent > field of VTES tournaments, i still think it is wrong. > > If all judges would judge the same (purely hypothetical), they could > not see, what other judges are doing different and maybe better. And > players had no choice what judge they would prefer. > Shouldn't players get the same rulings from judges whereever they play? If judges weren't bound to some standard rulings, the whole tournament traveller thing could get shaky, since you couldn't know what to expect. Allowing pet judges with pet rulings is tantamount to introducing house rules to sanctioned tournaments, which is a bad thing. If a judge wants to organize a tournament by his own rules, it should be unsanctioned, and it should state which specific rules are changed for that tournament. In order to do that, you need a consistent catalog of rulings and rules, so you can state which ones aren't in effect for that event. > It is simple darwinism. More diversity makes for better judging. > But not on the tournament floor, where it just leads to confusion. If a judge is unhappy with a ruling and can make a clear statement why he feels that way he can always appeal to the rule team and LSJ. If he has a point, he will be considered. The same applies to players: if a judge consistently ignores consensus, a player should be able to complain about that based on reference to which ruling that judge chooses to ignore. To give Godwin's law a nudge: If you merge legislative and jurisdictive bodies, you will create a bad, bad environment for open tournaments. Oliver

Olive...@gmail.com wrote: > Shouldn't players get the same rulings from judges whereever they play? About societal expectations (i.e., community standards)? Only insafar as "same ruling" means "apply current/appropriate societal expectations as they are". > If judges weren't bound to some standard rulings, the whole tournament > traveller thing could get shaky, since you couldn't know what to > expect. The solution is to make the effort to make things clear and have things that you perceive as possibly ambiguous made clear to you (both when visiting and when receiving visitors), until everyone present understands what community standards they have developed (the community made up of the players present, that is). > Allowing pet judges with pet rulings is tantamount to > introducing house rules to sanctioned tournaments, which is a bad > thing. If a judge wants to organize a tournament by his own rules, it > should be unsanctioned, and it should state which specific rules are > changed for that tournament. In order to do that, you need a consistent > catalog of rulings and rules, so you can state which ones aren't in > effect for that event. We're not talking about house rules or pet rulings. An exhaustive catalog of situational judgments would simply lead to lawyerism -- it would be too unwieldy to be used in the noble sense you imagine and would instead just be used as fodder for the players who wish to twist this-or-that judgment (often out of context) to gain an inappropriate advantage. > The same applies to players: if a judge > consistently ignores consensus, a player should be able to complain > about that based on reference to which ruling that judge chooses to > ignore. That's not necessary. If a judge consistenty performs poorly, players can and should report that to the V:EKN (contacting either myself or Robert Goudie or Stewart Wieck or Oscar Garza directly, as they like).

LSJ wrote: > Olive...@gmail.com wrote: > > Shouldn't players get the same rulings from judges whereever they play? > > About societal expectations (i.e., community standards)? Only insafar > as "same ruling" means "apply current/appropriate societal expectations > as they are". Ooops, didn't read the subject line. In Frank's statement he was supposing a body of hive-minded judges which consistently made the same judgements. Since that wouldn't make sense when it came to community standards (unless the communities were from the same hive mind, in which case judges, and propably games too would be nonexistant), i took it to be more general as a statement. > > If judges weren't bound to some standard rulings, the whole tournament > > traveller thing could get shaky, since you couldn't know what to > > expect. > > The solution is to make the effort to make things clear and have things > that you perceive as possibly ambiguous made clear to you (both when > visiting and when receiving visitors), until everyone present > understands what community standards they have developed (the community > made up of the players present, that is). > > > Allowing pet judges with pet rulings is tantamount to > > introducing house rules to sanctioned tournaments, which is a bad > > thing. If a judge wants to organize a tournament by his own rules, it > > should be unsanctioned, and it should state which specific rules are > > changed for that tournament. In order to do that, you need a consistent > > catalog of rulings and rules, so you can state which ones aren't in > > effect for that event. > > We're not talking about house rules or pet rulings. > That was what i (mis-) understood from Frank's post. > An exhaustive catalog of situational judgments would simply lead to > lawyerism -- it would be too unwieldy to be used in the noble sense you > imagine and would instead just be used as fodder for the players who > wish to twist this-or-that judgment (often out of context) to gain an > inappropriate advantage. Of course. Which is why i wrote consistent catalog, and not exhaustive. A consistent catalog, along with a consistent system of inference should allow for consistent rulings without covering every conceivable combination of effects. Hopefully. ;)

Peter D Bakija wrote: > We have a local player who has a tendancy, in casual play, to make endless > cracks about yer mom (ya know--Sackett). Which is fine when we are playing > casually with friends. As a judge, I do my very darndest to reign in that > behavior when we have people from other play groups in tournaments, if for > no other reason that I don't want Sackett getting punched in the face. Or Sackett's mom. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > Or Sackett's mom. I just spit out some coffee. Clearly, you are familiar with the works of Sackett... :-) -Peter

On 26 Oct 2005 06:54:20 -0700, <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > I just spit out some coffee. Anyway, what's the point of coffee? Tastes bad, is unhealthy, and is gruesome to behold. ;) -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] The point is that along with a great deal of beer, coffee can enable one to play vtes for a solid week without stopping (much) for food, sleep or other "necessities." I've done it twice and I highly recommend it. Matt Morgan P.S. Coffee tastes great. If you don't believe me, drink two cups of it every morning for 15 years.

Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > P.S. Coffee tastes great. If you don't believe me, drink two cups of it > every morning for 15 years. Who doesn't like coffee? Ya know who didn't like coffee? I'll tell you who didn't like coffee. Hitler. Hitler didn't like coffee. -Peter

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsy9uoj...@news.chello.hu... [ quoted text not captured ] Right. Between this, and you makin' with the Wacky-talk re: the VTES deal-maker/breaker bit, I now suspect you are actaully a clinically insane resident in one of the world's finer mental institiutions ;-) http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20010804/food.asp http://www.physorg.com/news6067.html DaveZ Java Weaver

<pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:1130442622....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] No. But Hitler really enjoyed a good needle full of Methamphetimines several times a day. Mind you, I'm not saying straight out that Hitler was responsible for the lack of Engling Furies in this game. It's just an inference you could pick up. Fred

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, David Zopf wrote: > http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20010804/food.asp > > http://www.physorg.com/news6067.html Today is the greatest day of my life. Matt Morgan (unfortunately now in need of an actual vice)

In message <1130442622....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, pd...@lightlink.com writes: >Who doesn't like coffee? Ya know who didn't like coffee? I'll tell you >who didn't like coffee. Hitler. Hitler didn't like coffee. I like everything about coffee - the smell, the look, making it for other people - except... I don't like the taste. I can cope with a milk-heavy coffee when I *really* have to. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:2005102715...@fnord.io.com... > On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, David Zopf wrote: > >> http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20010804/food.asp >> >> http://www.physorg.com/news6067.html > > Today is the greatest day of my life. > Glad to bring The Happy to your attention. > Matt Morgan > > (unfortunately now in need of an actual vice) What? VTES doesn't count anymore, either? :-) DZ AW

James Coupe wrote: > In message <1130442622....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, > pd...@lightlink.com writes: > >Who doesn't like coffee? Ya know who didn't like coffee? I'll tell you > >who didn't like coffee. Hitler. Hitler didn't like coffee. > > I like everything about coffee - the smell, the look, making it for > other people - except... I don't like the taste. > > I can cope with a milk-heavy coffee when I *really* have to. > I think this means that James might be Hitler. Even odds on who you'd be hunted by more - descendents of his victims, or those who think you're responsible for the rarity of Engling Fury.

Why stop at inappropriate language? What about inappropriate behavior? Excessive flatulence for example? Is it the volume, the stink, or the volume that most disrupt the game, if at all? I'd like to denote now that this is just a point of curiosity, just to see what everyone thinks. -BEAR

[ quoted text not captured ] I know your true name, foul beast! Back I say! Back into the bowels of the Earth. Do not tempt me, BEAR, for I shall command you by your name. . . . (to be continued) Ankur Gupta Prince of West Lafayette

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:19:11 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> scrawled: >In message <1130442622....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, >pd...@lightlink.com writes: >>Who doesn't like coffee? Ya know who didn't like coffee? I'll tell you >>who didn't like coffee. Hitler. Hitler didn't like coffee. > >I like everything about coffee - the smell, the look, making it for >other people - except... I don't like the taste. you know, my girlfriend was saying the exact same thing about something else entirely just the other day... salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

On 27 Oct 2005 19:56:05 -0700, "BearofMilwaukee" <profb...@hotmail.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] I actually gave a guy a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct in a tournemant for farting. It wasn't the first time he'd farted, and ...well.... he _aimed it_ at another player. Amusing as all hell, but there was no way I could condone it as sportsmanlike. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <jtp3m11uap6di1ot9...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:19:11 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >scrawled: >>I like everything about coffee - the smell, the look, making it for >>other people - except... I don't like the taste. > >you know, my girlfriend was saying the exact same thing about >something else entirely just the other day... Have the two of us ever been pictured in the same place at the same time? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 21:44:14 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> scrawled: >In message <jtp3m11uap6di1ot9...@4ax.com>, salem ><salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >>On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:19:11 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >>scrawled: >>>I like everything about coffee - the smell, the look, making it for >>>other people - except... I don't like the taste. >> >>you know, my girlfriend was saying the exact same thing about >>something else entirely just the other day... > >Have the two of us ever been pictured in the same place at the same >time? not to my knowledge......or have we? ooooEEEoooo..... [ quoted text not captured ]