Need help defeating gangrel

Mark Rehbein <mark.r...@jcu.edu.au> writes: >Hi, >I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence >celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: You have a problem. As far as I can tell, there's no _easy_ way to get around this. You could toss in a bunch of Sideslips to use at superior, but that only prevents one damage. Perhaps when added with flak jackets or Guardian Angels...? Otherwise, I'm not sure you're going to get very far against a Gangrel deck with a Brujah cel/pot deck. You could include some Majesties (assuming you have an adequate amount of presence too...). However, your main problem (aside from sucking agg...) is, I'm willing to bet, the Gangrel deck taking everything you can dish out with its Fortitude. You can always pile on more Fists of Death or Torn Signposts or Death of My Conscience, but then again, Skin of Steel is pretty common... Pretty much the only way to get around the Scorpion Sting combo is either Fortitude (or alternate damage prevention) of your own, or Strike: Combat Ends, as far as I'm aware. I suppose there are also some cards in Sabbat that turn agg to normal, but I believe they're farily few & far between. >Drawing out the beast + >scorpian sting (superior) + >bone spur or wolf claws >result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two >aggravated damage. >Please help My recommendation would be to build another deck. Not specifically designed to kill the Gangrel deck, because that's boring. But as a suggestion, a thaumaturgy/fortitude deck (with some intercept) can be utter death to Gangrel decks, or something simpler with damage prevention. Potence/Fortitude if you want something outlandish, or a straight Ventrue Dom/For/Pre deck would work nice...throw some votes in for fun. Anoter option would be a Brujah Presence/Potence (and/or Celerity) deck. Toss in Rake, other small guys with votes, maybe Carthage Remembered for fun...Burning Wrath, use Majesty when you're worried, otherwise, Immortal Grapple and pound your opponent. But Flak jackets are probably a plus. --Xian

Hi, I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: Drawing out the beast + scorpian sting (superior) + bone spur or wolf claws result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two aggravated damage. Please help Thanks Mark eng...@jcu.edu.au

Mark Rehbein (mark.r...@jcu.edu.au) wrote: : Hi, [ quoted text not captured ] The simplest answer is: don't try. Even if you do hit him he'll most likely prevent the damage. Your best bet here is presence. Try majesty or staredown or whatever to end the combat. If you can't risk bleeding him then try pool hitting votes. Elysium: Arboretum is a good addition.

Mark Rehbein wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence > celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: > > Drawing out the beast + > scorpian sting (superior) + > bone spur or wolf claws > > result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two > aggravated damage. > One word: Rotschreck. Throw 5 or so in when you know you're going against an agg. deck. People get surprisingly paranoid over this wonderful little card. -- rob. (rfle...@ix.netcom.com) NOTE: If you wish to respond to me via email, please remove the * from the return address!

Christian S Herro wrote: > > Mark Rehbein <mark.r...@jcu.edu.au> writes: > > >Hi, > > >I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence > >celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: > > >Drawing out the beast + > >scorpian sting (superior) + > >bone spur or wolf claws > > >result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two > >aggravated damage. > > >Please help > Here are some more suggestions: Leather Jacket Rotsreicht!!! (Forget their normal clan hoser, this is the true Gangrel clan hoser)

Rob LeGood <rflegood@*ix.netcom.com> writes: >Mark Rehbein wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence >> celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: >> >> Drawing out the beast + >> scorpian sting (superior) + >> bone spur or wolf claws >> >> result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two >> aggravated damage. >> >One word: Rotschreck. Throw 5 or so in when you know you're going >against an agg. deck. People get surprisingly paranoid over this >wonderful little card. Oh, man! I can't believe I forgot Rotschreck! Good call. This is certainly (well...almost certainly) the best card to put in. Pack 'em in. Only problem is going into combat on your turn. Maybe include some stuff to get you blood so he has to go after you... Good good good idea rob. --Xian

Rob LeGood wrote: "One word: Rotschreck. Throw 5 or so in when you know you're going against an agg. deck. People get surprisingly paranoid over this wonderful little card." Well, sure, but then you open up the horible world of "Side Boarding" and specific deck killers. Once you start down that road, it won't be long before everone starts putting in 6 Brujah Frenzies to defeat that Brujah deck or 10 Nosferatu Putrescence just because they know some guy is playing who always plays Nosferatu. Your group may like this sort of play, but the world of "Trumping Trumps" is generally considered a bad idea (and not needed in Jyhad). A better way to deal with the Brujah/Gangrel problem is to try to fix the deck proper to deal with these problems, rather than planning on putting in "Screw the Gangrel" cards when you know you are playing the Gangrel (this isn't Magic, ya know :-). First, look at the problem: The Brujah can't really prevent damage effectively, and the Gangrel make it impossible for you to Dodge. My first answer would be "Then don't fight the Gangrel". If you know you can't beat them, don't try. The best card to put in your deck for this reason is the Sabbat card Staredown. While at first glance, Staredown appears completely inferior to Majesty, in a Brujah combat deck, it is perfect, as you can always use it to Dodge and then Additional Strike if you don't need the S:CE. Replace all of your Sideslips/Acrobatics with Staredown, and S:CE (which the Gangrel can only deal with by having Dog Packs, which are expensive and fragile) when you get in a fight you can't win. When that fails, make a new deck. Every possible deck design can be beaten senseless by another one (a S+B deck vs a heavy Wake/Deflections deck, Brujah combat vs a Gangrel Scorpion Sting deck, a Gangrel Deck vs a heavy S:CE deck, a Potence Immortal Grapple deck vs a deck full of Skin of Steel, ect...). By making lots of new decks all the time, no one in your play group can capitalize upon the weakness of a particular deck that someone plays every week. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "In America, first you get the Sugar, then you get the Power, then you get the Women." -Homer

A few ideas: Leather Jackets Donal and Constanza + Thoughts Betrayed Roetschreck (depending on how and if you play with it) Direct Intervention one of these steps play with the Brujah/antitribu Brujah with fortitude try a different deck idea for a while, then come back to this one (always a good idea if people tailor their decks solely to beat yours) Good luck, TJH In article <333724...@jcu.edu.au>, Mark Rehbein <mark.r...@jcu.edu.au> wrote: > Hi, > > I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence > celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: > > Drawing out the beast + > scorpian sting (superior) + > bone spur or wolf claws > > result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two > aggravated damage. > [ quoted text not captured ]

Rob LeGood <rflegood@*ix.netcom.com> wrote in article <5h8qbt$a...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>... > Mark Rehbein wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence > > celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: > > > > Drawing out the beast + > > scorpian sting (superior) + > > bone spur or wolf claws > > > > result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two > > aggravated damage. > > > > One word: Rotschreck. Throw 5 or so in when you know you're going > against an agg. deck. People get surprisingly paranoid over this > wonderful little card. Wonderful advice Rob. I have almost given up on agg. damage in my group. Every time I do agg. damage some wise guy (sometimes not even my victim) throws Rotschreck on me. It can be a total game ender. After you get your I.C. diablerized because of it your guaranteed to be a little paranoid of Rotschreck... -- Steve Bucy I'd be better off undead... "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar

In article <19970326002...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote: >Rob LeGood wrote: >First, look at the problem: The Brujah can't really prevent damage >effectively, and the Gangrel make it impossible for you to Dodge. My >first answer would be "Then don't fight the Gangrel". If you know you >can't beat them, don't try. The best card to put in your deck for this >reason is the Sabbat card Staredown. While at first glance, Staredown >appears completely inferior to Majesty, in a Brujah combat deck, it is >perfect, as you can always use it to Dodge and then Additional Strike if >you don't need the S:CE. Replace all of your Sideslips/Acrobatics with >Staredown, and S:CE (which the Gangrel can only deal with by having Dog >Packs, which are expensive and fragile) when you get in a fight you can't >win. You might also want to try using another Sabbat card, Preternatural Evasion. It's almost the exact same thing as Staredown, but uses celerity, and so may fit better with the vamps you have. Aside from that though, I agree with pretty much everything Peter had to say in his post. -- Robert Granat Lackey of the Schnitzel Industry

> Wonderful advice Rob. I have almost given up on agg. damage in my > group. Every time I do agg. damage some wise guy (sometimes not even > my victim) throws Rotschreck on me. It can be a total game ender. > After you get your I.C. diablerized because of it your guaranteed to > be a little paranoid of Rotschreck... I probably shouldn't even be getting into this, since we banned Rotschreck for this very reason. How are you saying this card works, and why? It seems to me like card text and the rules team ruling are in complete disagreement, so I'm curious why you would pick one over the other. James -- James E. Hamblin je...@cornell.edu "There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. ... Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender." -- G'Kar, Babylon 5: "Z'ha'dum"

James Hamblin wrote: > > > Wonderful advice Rob. I have almost given up on agg. damage in my > > group. Every time I do agg. damage some wise guy (sometimes not even > > my victim) throws Rotschreck on me. It can be a total game ender. > > After you get your I.C. diablerized because of it your guaranteed to > > be a little paranoid of Rotschreck... > > I probably shouldn't even be getting into this, since we banned > Rotschreck for this very reason. How are you saying this card works, This card works (officially) by being played on a vampire as that vampire attempts to deal aggravated damage in combat. > and why? Because that's how the Rule Team has ruled/errataed it to work. > It seems to me like card text and the rules team ruling are in complete > disagreement, so I'm curious why you would pick one over the other. You would pick the official version because it is official. You could pick a house rule only if your group agrees to it. BTW (and not to say you're wrong for playing Rot the way it is written - my group uses the same house rule), I think this line of attack ("why use RT errata over printed text?") won't serve well in the long run. For instance, do you burn a vampire if his last blood is stolen? (Official: "No" / Print: "Yes") Another: Is playing the P/J card Blood Hunt directed or undirected? -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

> BTW (and not to say you're wrong for playing Rot the way it is > written - my group uses the same house rule), I think this line > of attack ("why use RT errata over printed text?") won't serve > well in the long run. Oh, I totally agree. In the case of this specific card, we banned it, since people would attempt to play it and arguments about what the card does would ensue. In my mind, if we were to play with the card, I would be for the text version (i.e., the house rule), since it seems to make more sense. I guess I just want to know how pervasive Rotschreck is. When we banned it, it seemed to me like this was the norm; people disagreed with the RT ruling, and thus the card was made useless (in the sense that it _could_ not be used). I'm wondering now if maybe we should have chosen one side of the fence or the other, instead of bulldozing the fence... [ quoted text not captured ]

> I guess I just want to know how pervasive Rotschreck is. When we banned > it, it seemed to me like this was the norm; people disagreed with the RT > ruling, and thus the card was made useless (in the sense that it _could_ > not be used). I'm wondering now if maybe we should have chosen one side > of the fence or the other, instead of bulldozing the fence... The three main groups I play with don't play Roetschreck because it always causes arguments. TJH

Mark Rehbein (mark.r...@jcu.edu.au) wrote: : Hi, : : I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence : celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: : : Drawing out the beast + : scorpian sting (superior) + : bone spur or wolf claws : : result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two : aggravated damage. : : Please help : : Thanks : : Mark First off, the Brujah seldom can match the Gangrel in head-on combat. So what if you can do 46 damage in a given round if I can do one agg. damage and play skin of steel. However, there are many other strategies which can kill the Gangrel. Weenie pool gain/Hostile Takover is always an interesting strategy against them, and the Tremere, used properly, can counter them as well with Thoughts Betrayed massacre combos or, on a more equitable level with first round anti-fortitude strikes (Blood Fury or Theft of Vitae) to get the licks in, and fortitude for yourself to avoid the agg damage. Stealth and bleed or vote can usually give the Gangrel a hard time as well. Dave Green

T.J. Hull (t...@nwlink.com) wrote: : > I guess I just want to know how pervasive Rotschreck is. When we banned [ quoted text not captured ] : TJH We decided to use Rotschreck as the Jyhad card reads (the card text is not as unclear as a first impression might suggest, if you look closely at the wording), sending the vampire receiving agg damage to torpor. It is not really imbalancing, certainly far less so than, say, Archon Investigation, and no one has had severe problems with it. -Dave Green

> Mark Rehbein (mark.r...@jcu.edu.au) wrote: > : Hi, > : > : I have a problem defeating a gangrel combat deck with my brujah potence > : celerity deck. The gangrel deck is based on the following combat combo: > : > : Drawing out the beast + > : scorpian sting (superior) + > : bone spur or wolf claws > : > : result is my brujah can't maneuver or dodge in combat so they take two > : aggravated damage. > : > : Please help Another possibility that just came to mind would be Rapid Thoughts and Catatonic Fear. You get out of combat, cause some damage, and can wait to see if he actually pulls that big nasty combo. And all you need is celerity and presence. John Baker "When I hit the streets, I am the Crown Prince of Pavement." Boingo, "Pedestrian Wolves"

On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:38:41 GMT, dc...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Dave Green) wrote: >We decided to use Rotschreck as the Jyhad card reads (the card >text is not as unclear as a first impression might suggest, if >you look closely at the wording), sending the vampire receiving >agg damage to torpor. It is not really imbalancing, certainly >far less so than, say, Archon Investigation, and no one has had >severe problems with it. Common sense suggests to me that this is correct way to deal with the Rötschreck card. After all, the Rötschreck is something a vampire can go through when faced with potentially fatal circumstances such as fire, claws of undead creatures, sun, etc. We've also had these arguments in our group but have decided to go with the official errata (we'de rather play than argue) but I have a feeling of dissatisfaction with the errata in this particular case. Also, we've so far avoided house rules (except for 4CL which we're taking a holiday from now). Oh well :) «ägl»