[LSJ] Michael Luther timing

One question came up in our latest V:TES night. I was controlling Michael Luther and during a referendums we had the following situation (a bit complicated): I had 7 votes in favor, they had 8 votes against (4 princes). One of them had a Justicar and he said the Justicar abstains from the referendum. The were waiting that I change 1 prince in my favor thus making it 9 to 6 and then voting with the Justicar to make the referendum fail. I was argumenting that Michael Luthers ability can be applied after all votes were cast to change one of the vampires votes and that I can change an abstaining vampires votes. They were trying to argument that I cannot change abstaining vampires votes and they can wait "forever" with the justicar to cast votes just until Michael Luther has been tapped. So the question is : can I pass the referendum (how and why?) or can I not (why?) ? P.S : I allready searched google but I couldn´t find any applicable ruling. -- johannes walch v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/

Johannes Walch expounded: > One question came up in our latest V:TES night. I was controlling Michael > Luther and during a referendums we had the following situation (a bit > complicated): > I had 7 votes in favor, they had 8 votes against (4 princes). One of them > had a Justicar and he said the Justicar abstains from the referendum. The > were waiting that I change 1 prince in my favor thus making it 9 to 6 and > then voting with the Justicar to make the referendum fail. I was argumenting > that Michael Luthers ability can be applied after all votes were cast to > change one of the vampires votes and that I can change an abstaining > vampires votes. They were trying to argument that I cannot change abstaining > vampires votes and they can wait "forever" with the justicar to cast votes > just until Michael Luther has been tapped. > > So the question is : can I pass the referendum (how and why?) or can I not > (why?) ? You cannot force them to vote. The ability can only be used *after* they have voted -not if they don't vote. (first post googling for "luther" in the NG) After you use your ability they have the right to cast votes. They can wait 'forever' inasmuch as they don't have to vote -at some point you can call for any more votes and then declare the referendum over BUT you cannot use your ability after the referendum is over and nor can you use it and then rush to end the referendum before they can vote. You can't pass this referendum unless you have some other form of vote push.

> You can't pass this referendum unless you have some other form of vote > push. I allready guessed so. Sad but true :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:24 +0100, "Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> scrawled: >> You can't pass this referendum unless you have some other form of vote >> push. > >I allready guessed so. Sad but true :-) I think, although i am not sure, that you could force the justicar's votes to be in favour, but you couldn't actually force him to _cast_ those votes. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

salem expounded: > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:25:24 +0100, "Johannes Walch" > <johanne...@vekn.de> scrawled: > > >> You can't pass this referendum unless you have some other form of vote > >> push. > > > >I allready guessed so. Sad but true :-) > > I think, although i am not sure, that you could force the justicar's > votes to be in favour, but you couldn't actually force him to _cast_ > those votes. If he doesn't cast them you lose. If you convert a prince he can cast them and you still lose.

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. If everyone reaches the "I won't do anything until someone else does" point, then it's time to close the referendum. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Correct. > If everyone reaches the "I won't do anything until someone else does" > point, then it's time to close the referendum. Not that this has any bearing on the OP, but out of curiosity, do votes follow the normal roundtable progression? Ie, if A is the acting Methuselah, does A have first perogative to cast votes, then B, then C, etc? --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan wrote: > Not that this has any bearing on the OP, but out of curiosity, do votes > follow the normal roundtable progression? Ie, if A is the acting > Methuselah, does A have first perogative to cast votes, then B, then C, > etc? No. Voting is open. [ quoted text not captured ]