419 Operation
[This is a draft question.]
* The card counts as an Orun or as an Aye even while not in play. When
do you chose if it's an Orun or an Aye? Can you use it as your 3rd Aye
for the Aye's special, without specifying before that it's an Aye? Can
you then use it as your third Orun ?
--
Brutal Influence
* Is it as you play the card that you have to set X ?
--
Ilomba
* If Carna has an Ilomba, and decides to burn it during the untap
phase to gain blood, she obviously burns 1 blood. But does she gain 2
blood back?
* If my Ahrimane with Ilomba plays the Wildebeest, does she slowly
empty and burn before the end of the action ?
--
Mundane
* Does Keystone Kine require a discipline if you play it using no
discipline ? Does it require a discipline if you use any of the three
you can ?
--
Reliquarty: Trinket
* Do you have to declare which cards you are to discard? For example,
it would be relevant if Pulse of the Canaille or Revelations are in
play.
--
Umdava
* Do you place the Aye / Orun you retrieved on the Laibon if you use
the special ?
--
Lucian, the Perfect
* Can a minion choose not to strike before range is set when in combat
with Lucian?
* Can a minion choose not to strike during the setting of the range
(maneuver phase) when in combat with Lucian?
* Can a minion choose not to strike before strikes are announced and
when range is set when in combat with Lucian?
* Can a minion choose not to strike after his opponent has announced
his strike when in combat with Lucian ?
* Can you maneuver with the .44 Magnum and choose not to strike when
in combat with Lucian?
* Would the card Dodge cost 1 bloood when in combat with Lucian?
* Would Majesty cost 2 blood when in combat with Lucian?
* If Lucian plays Song of Serenity, resulting in his opponent having 0
strength, does the opponent's hand strike for 0 strength cost 1
blood ?
* Would hand strike at long range (with no effect) cost 1 blood when
in combat with Lucian ?
* At long range, would playing Theft of Vitae targetting Lucian's
Raven Spy cost 1 blood ?
* At close range, if I announced hands for 1, but I want to play
Target Retainer, does my hand strike cost 1 blood when in combat with
Lucian?
* If the reacting minion uses his Sniper Rifle to set the range, and
that Lucian plays Drawing out the beast afterwards, does the blocking
minion burn 1 blood in the choose strike step ?
floppyzedolfin wrote:
> 419 Operation
> [This is a draft question.]
> * The card counts as an Orun or as an Aye even while not in play. When
> do you chose if it's an Orun or an Aye? Can you use it as your 3rd Aye
> for the Aye's special, without specifying before that it's an Aye? Can
> you then use it as your third Orun ?
Card text: "and"
> --
>
> Brutal Influence
> * Is it as you play the card that you have to set X ?
Card text: "when the action is announced"
> --
>
> Ilomba
> * If Carna has an Ilomba, and decides to burn it during the untap
> phase to gain blood, she obviously burns 1 blood. But does she gain 2
> blood back?
No. Carna's text: "to"
> * If my Ahrimane with Ilomba plays the Wildebeest, does she slowly
> empty and burn before the end of the action ?
Slowly? Well, she'll burn all her pool and then herself, yes. Card text.
> --
>
> Mundane
> * Does Keystone Kine require a discipline if you play it using no
> discipline ?
It cannot be played using no Discipline. Card text.
> Does it require a discipline if you use any of the three
> you can ?
Card text.
>
> --
>
> Reliquarty: Trinket
> * Do you have to declare which cards you are to discard? For example,
> it would be relevant if Pulse of the Canaille or Revelations are in
> play.
Yes.
> --
>
> Umdava
> * Do you place the Aye / Orun you retrieved on the Laibon if you use
> the special ?
Card text.
> --
>
> Lucian, the Perfect
> * Can a minion choose not to strike before range is set when in combat
> with Lucian?
> * Can a minion choose not to strike during the setting of the range
> (maneuver phase) when in combat with Lucian?
> * Can a minion choose not to strike before strikes are announced and
> when range is set when in combat with Lucian?
> * Can a minion choose not to strike after his opponent has announced
> his strike when in combat with Lucian ?
?
Choose? No. It's mandatory not to strike at that time.
A minion cannot choose not to take an action during the maneuver phase, either.
That's also mandatory.
> * Can you maneuver with the .44 Magnum and choose not to strike when
> in combat with Lucian?
No.
> * Would the card Dodge cost 1 bloood when in combat with Lucian?
> * Would Majesty cost 2 blood when in combat with Lucian?
Card text.
> * If Lucian plays Song of Serenity, resulting in his opponent having 0
> strength, does the opponent's hand strike for 0 strength cost 1
> blood ?
Moot, since xe can choose not to strike, but card text.
> * Would hand strike at long range (with no effect) cost 1 blood when
> in combat with Lucian ?
No. Card text. See also R�tschreck rulings.
> * At long range, would playing Theft of Vitae targetting Lucian's
> Raven Spy cost 1 blood ?
Card text.
> * At close range, if I announced hands for 1, but I want to play
> Target Retainer, does my hand strike cost 1 blood when in combat with
> Lucian?
Yes. You have to announce the strike first. And strikes are paid for when
announced. (Consider what would happen if the Target card was canceled as played.)
> * If the reacting minion uses his Sniper Rifle to set the range, and
> that Lucian plays Drawing out the beast afterwards, does the blocking
> minion burn 1 blood in the choose strike step ?
No.
On May 28, 5:32 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > * Would hand strike at long range (with no effect) cost 1 blood when
> > in combat with Lucian ?
>> No. Card text. See also Rötschreck rulings.
What happens if a minion plays Slam during the determine range step,
but range is long during the choose strike step (or Thrown Gate is
used to go to long but Lucian maneuvers close and grapples)? Shouldn't
the increased cost of a strike-card strike be payed when the strike-
card is played?
Slam
Type: Combat
Requires: Potence
Cost: 1 blood
[pot] Strike: hand strike at strength+2 damage.
[POT] As above, with an optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to
close range.
jwnew...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On May 28, 5:32 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>>> * Would hand strike at long range (with no effect) cost 1 blood when
>>> in combat with Lucian ?>> No. Card text. See also R�tschreck rulings.>
> What happens if a minion plays Slam during the determine range step,
> but range is long during the choose strike step (or Thrown Gate is
> used to go to long but Lucian maneuvers close and grapples)? Shouldn't
> the increased cost of a strike-card strike be payed when the strike-
> card is played?
>
> Slam
> Type: Combat
> Requires: Potence
> Cost: 1 blood
> [pot] Strike: hand strike at strength+2 damage.
> [POT] As above, with an optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to
> close range.
The cost of the maneuver is not increased by Lucian. But the cost of the strike
(assuming it is made against Lucian) is.
Also note: that it not the case presented in floppy's question. Floppy text:
"with no effect".
I guess that reverses the answer on Target Retainer, though.
REVERSAL: When playing a Target Retainer to make the strike be a strike against
something not-Lucian, Lucian's ability doesn't apply.
On May 28, 5:32 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Card text: "and"> Card text: "when the action is announced"> No. Carna's text: "to"> Slowly? Well, she'll burn all her pool and then herself, yes. Card text.> It cannot be played using no Discipline. Card text.> Card text.
> Card text.
> Card text.> Moot, since xe can choose not to strike, but card text.> No. Card text. See also Rötschreck rulings.
> Card text.
... and that's a good example of why you should quote card text when
asking questions.
Brent Ross
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> jwnew...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > On May 28, 5:32 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >>> * Would hand strike at long range (with no effect) cost 1 blood when
> >>> in combat with Lucian ?
> >> No. Card text. See also R�tschreck rulings.
> >
> > What happens if a minion plays Slam during the determine range step,
> > but range is long during the choose strike step (or Thrown Gate is
> > used to go to long but Lucian maneuvers close and grapples)? Shouldn't
> > the increased cost of a strike-card strike be payed when the strike-
> > card is played?
> >
> > Slam
> > Type: Combat
> > Requires: Potence
> > Cost: 1 blood
> > [pot] Strike: hand strike at strength+2 damage.
> > [POT] As above, with an optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to
> > close range.> The cost of the maneuver is not increased by Lucian. But the cost of the strike
> (assuming it is made against Lucian) is.
Suppose Jann Berger is in combat with Lucian, and he maneuvers to long with Pursuit.
Then he strikes Thrown Gate. By Jann's ability, Thrown Gate would still cost zero.
Correct?
Suppose Jann Berger is in combat with Lucian, and he maneuvers to long with Thrown
Gate, committing himself to the strike. Jann must pay the cost, because
only the _strike_'s cost is increased by 1, and not the card's cost. Correct?
Jozxyqk wrote:
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> The cost of the maneuver is not increased by Lucian. But the cost of the strike
>> (assuming it is made against Lucian) is.>
> Suppose Jann Berger is in combat with Lucian, and he maneuvers to long with Pursuit.
> Then he strikes Thrown Gate. By Jann's ability, Thrown Gate would still cost zero.
> Correct?
Correct.
> Suppose Jann Berger is in combat with Lucian, and he maneuvers to long with Thrown
> Gate, committing himself to the strike. Jann must pay the cost, because
> only the _strike_'s cost is increased by 1, and not the card's cost. Correct?
Correct, assuming Jann's Gate strike is against Lucian.
On May 29, 6:47 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Jozxyqk wrote:[ quoted text not captured ]
Just to be clear... The "cost of a strike" and "the cost of a card"
are the same kind of cost (an effect decreasing the one will offset an
effect increasing the other) if and only if the strike card is played
during the choose strike phase?
[ quoted text not captured ]
Right. If you play the strike card to choose your strike, then the cost of the
card and the cost of the strike are the same thing.
On May 28, 4:32 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> floppyzedolfin wrote:
> > 419 Operation
> > [This is a draft question.]
> > * The card counts as an Orun or as an Aye even while not in play. When
> > do you chose if it's an Orun or an Aye? Can you use it as your 3rd Aye
> > for the Aye's special, without specifying before that it's an Aye? Can
> > you then use it as your third Orun ?
>
> Card text: "and"
If I've got two 419s at Draft effect on a three capacity vampire,
and I play the standard "Orun" on it, what happens?
from Orun
"Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her
capacity."
Does the three capacity have 2 aye and 3 orun, (meaning some will
burn)
or a total aye and orun of 3.
Non-draft question:
A three cap has three Orun on it. I play an Aye on it. What burns?
One orun or aye, player's choice or
All Orun and Aye
Worded otherwise: do they all burn at once or one at a time until
conditions are no longer fulfilled?
Thanks
John P.
Winnipeg
On Jun 1, 12:43 pm, "John P." <jtpat...@mts.net> wrote:
>
> If I've got two 419s at Draft effect on a three capacity vampire,
> and I play the standard "Orun" on it, what happens?
>
> from Orun
> "Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her
> capacity."
>
I haven't seen an answer yet, but I'm virtually certain that 419
counts as 1 "Aye and Orun". Thus, a 4 cap could have 2 419's (or
Despiral at Draft level), plus an Aye and an Orun, and thus have 3 of
each, but only have 4 total "Aye and Orun".
>
> Non-draft question:
> A three cap has three Orun on it. I play an Aye on it. What burns?
> One orun or aye, player's choice or
> All Orun and Aye
>
Just one. I believe that the choice is to the player who played the
Orun or Aye on that vampire (I don't have the cards in front of me - I
think Aye and Orun can only be played on your vampires, but Umdava
lets you place them on any Laibon). Although it might just always be
the choice of the controlling methuselah, regardless of who put the
extra Aye or Orun on.
Similarly, if a vampire has 11 Orun on him and bleeds for 16 with
Brutal Influence, he only burns one Orun for bleeding for more than 2,
even though it seems like card text would cause each Orun to want to
burn "1 Orun" off the vampire, and you'd have to burn at least half of
them (burn Orun #1 to fulfill Orun #10's burn clause, #2 to fulfill
#9's burn clause, etc...), or perhaps all of them. But it's been
ruled that you burn just one Orun to satisfy the requirement printed
on all of them. Thankfully.
Chris Berger wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:43 pm, "John P." <jtpat...@mts.net> wrote:>> If I've got two 419s at Draft effect on a three capacity vampire,
>> and I play the standard "Orun" on it, what happens?
>>
>> from Orun
>> "Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her
>> capacity."
>>> I haven't seen an answer yet, but I'm virtually certain that 419
> counts as 1 "Aye and Orun". Thus, a 4 cap could have 2 419's (or
> Despiral at Draft level), plus an Aye and an Orun, and thus have 3 of
> each, but only have 4 total "Aye and Orun".
Correct.
>> Non-draft question:
>> A three cap has three Orun on it. I play an Aye on it. What burns?
>> One orun or aye, player's choice or
>> All Orun and Aye
>>> Just one. I believe that the choice is to the player who played the
> Orun or Aye on that vampire (I don't have the cards in front of me - I
> think Aye and Orun can only be played on your vampires, but Umdava
> lets you place them on any Laibon). Although it might just always be
> the choice of the controlling methuselah, regardless of who put the
> extra Aye or Orun on.
The controller of an over-the-limit Aye (or Orun) card burns one of the
over-the-limit ones she controls during her impulse.
> Similarly, if a vampire has 11 Orun on him and bleeds for 16 with
> Brutal Influence, he only burns one Orun for bleeding for more than 2,
> even though it seems like card text would cause each Orun to want to
> burn "1 Orun" off the vampire, and you'd have to burn at least half of
> them (burn Orun #1 to fulfill Orun #10's burn clause, #2 to fulfill
> #9's burn clause, etc...), or perhaps all of them. But it's been
> ruled that you burn just one Orun to satisfy the requirement printed
> on all of them. Thankfully.
Correct. And the controller of that vampire would choose which Orun to burn
(whether or not she controls the Orun).
On Jun 2, 6:58 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > On Jun 1, 12:43 pm, "John P." <jtpat...@mts.net> wrote:
> >> If I've got two 419s at Draft effect on a three capacity vampire,
> >> and I play the standard "Orun" on it, what happens?
>
> >> from Orun
> >> "Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her
> >> capacity."
>
> > I haven't seen an answer yet, but I'm virtually certain that 419
> > counts as 1 "Aye and Orun". Thus, a 4 cap could have 2 419's (or
> > Despiral at Draft level), plus an Aye and an Orun, and thus have 3 of
> > each, but only have 4 total "Aye and Orun".
>
> Correct.
This is a weird bit of arithmetics. So a vampire has 3 Aye, 3 Orun,
but when I sum them (which is, in my opinion, the meaning of the "has
more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity" text) the result is 4.
This could actually make sense, if we would be counting cards that are
Aye or Orun, but I don't think that is the case with the current
wording.
As a side note, would there be a hypothetical card with text "This
card counts as 3 Aye when in play", a 3-cap vampire could actually
have 9 Aye.
>
> > Similarly, if a vampire has 11 Orun on him and bleeds for 16 with
> > Brutal Influence, he only burns one Orun for bleeding for more than 2,
> > even though it seems like card text would cause each Orun to want to
> > burn "1 Orun" off the vampire, and you'd have to burn at least half of
> > them (burn Orun #1 to fulfill Orun #10's burn clause, #2 to fulfill
> > #9's burn clause, etc...), or perhaps all of them. But it's been
> > ruled that you burn just one Orun to satisfy the requirement printed
> > on all of them. Thankfully.
>
> Correct. And the controller of that vampire would choose which Orun to burn
> (whether or not she controls the Orun).
I do not get the internal logic of this ruling, could you please point
to it, so I can try to understand.
Thanks
dvorax.
dvor...@gmx.net wrote:
>>> Similarly, if a vampire has 11 Orun on him and bleeds for 16 with
>>> Brutal Influence, he only burns one Orun for bleeding for more than 2,
>>> even though it seems like card text would cause each Orun to want to
>>> burn "1 Orun" off the vampire, and you'd have to burn at least half of
>>> them (burn Orun #1 to fulfill Orun #10's burn clause, #2 to fulfill
>>> #9's burn clause, etc...), or perhaps all of them. But it's been
>>> ruled that you burn just one Orun to satisfy the requirement printed
>>> on all of them. Thankfully.>> Correct. And the controller of that vampire would choose which Orun to burn
>> (whether or not she controls the Orun).>
> I do not get the internal logic of this ruling, could you please point
> to it, so I can try to understand.
Card text: "If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more than 2 or successfully
performs a (D) action against a non-mortal minion, he or she burns one Orun."
Not "... he or she burns this Orun."
On 3. Jún, 12:09 h., LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
I wasn't suggesting, that each Orun burns by it's own card text, just
that if there are 3 Oruns on a Laibon succesfully bleeding for more
than 2, each Orun's card text triggers. So there are 3 independent
"burn one Orun" effects in place. It could be ruled, that I can choose
the same Orun for each burning, but that wouldn't really work with
VtES sequenced-style resolution.
Another point which I think contradicts the ruling is Aching Beauty.
If a Toreador with multiple Aching Beauties is blocked, one pool is
burned for each Aching Beauty. (http://groups.google.com/group/
rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/
fbde7f4645ca2031/304cc38d71d05377?lnk=gst&q=multiple+aching+beaty
+author%3Alsj#304cc38d71d05377)
Relevant card text: Aching Beauty: " If this Toreador is blocked, the
controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool."
Which is the same wording as on the Orun card.
>> I haven't seen an answer yet, but I'm virtually certain that 419
>> counts as 1 "Aye and Orun". Thus, a 4 cap could have 2 419's (or
>> Despiral at Draft level), plus an Aye and an Orun, and thus have 3 of
>> each, but only have 4 total "Aye and Orun".> Correct.
My previous post to this part of discussion wasn't commented, so I
suppose everything I said is true. (especially the part "This could
actually make sense, if we would be counting cards that are Aye or
Orun").
But another question regarding the draft effect of 419 and Despiral
comes to my mind. Are these cards "full-fledged" Aye/Orun, e.g. has a
vampire with 3 Despirals (and no Orun masters) an additional vote? If
so, can I play it as a Master: Trifle?
dvor...@gmx.net wrote:
> On 3. J�n, 12:09 h., LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> dvorax...@gmx.net wrote:>>>>> Similarly, if a vampire has 11 Orun on him and bleeds for 16 with
>>>>> Brutal Influence, he only burns one Orun for bleeding for more than 2,
>>>>> even though it seems like card text would cause each Orun to want to
>>>>> burn "1 Orun" off the vampire, and you'd have to burn at least half of
>>>>> them (burn Orun #1 to fulfill Orun #10's burn clause, #2 to fulfill
>>>>> #9's burn clause, etc...), or perhaps all of them. But it's been
>>>>> ruled that you burn just one Orun to satisfy the requirement printed
>>>>> on all of them. Thankfully.>>>> Correct. And the controller of that vampire would choose which Orun to burn
>>>> (whether or not she controls the Orun).>>> I do not get the internal logic of this ruling, could you please point
>>> to it, so I can try to understand.>> Card text: "If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more than 2 or successfully
>> performs a (D) action against a non-mortal minion, he or she burns one Orun."
>>
>> Not "... he or she burns this Orun.">
> I wasn't suggesting, that each Orun burns by it's own card text,
Hmm. That was the ruling that preceded your "this ruling", so you can see why I
thought you were.
> just
> that if there are 3 Oruns on a Laibon succesfully bleeding for more
> than 2, each Orun's card text triggers. So there are 3 independent
> "burn one Orun" effects in place.
Perhaps, but it has been ruled that card text is indicating that only one is to
be burned, otherwise it would have been written differently.
Similarly, having three on a vampire gives that vampire 1 vote, not 3 (one from
each).
> But another question regarding the draft effect of 419 and Despiral
> comes to my mind. Are these cards "full-fledged" Aye/Orun, e.g. has a
> vampire with 3 Despirals (and no Orun masters) an additional vote? If
> so, can I play it as a Master: Trifle?
No. The effects of an Aye (or an Orun) comes from its card text. The rulebook
imparts no ability to them.
And the draft-effect versions lack any ability-granting text.
On Jun 4, 12:45 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> dvorax...@gmx.net wrote:> > On 3. Jún, 12:09 h., LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >> dvorax...@gmx.net wrote:
> > that if there are 3 Oruns on a Laibon succesfully bleeding for more
> > than 2, each Orun's card text triggers. So there are 3 independent
> > "burn one Orun" effects in place.
>
> Perhaps, but it has been ruled that card text is indicating that only one is to
> be burned, otherwise it would have been written differently.
>
> Similarly, having three on a vampire gives that vampire 1 vote, not 3 (one from
> each).
>
This is how the card was ment/designed to work, but the actual card
text doesn't support it. But if the Aching Beauty example didn't mean
anything, I suppose, I will have to yield :-).
Just a remark, much cleaner solution (from the wording pov) would be
to make Aye/Orun a rulebook concept, granting abilities for multiples,
burning just one for an action or capacity overflow, without all these
stacking issues.
dvorax.
LSJ wrote:
> floppyzedolfin wrote:>> Ilomba
>> * If Carna has an Ilomba, and decides to burn it during the untap
>> phase to gain blood, she obviously burns 1 blood. But does she gain 2
>> blood back?>
> No. Carna's text: "to"
REVERSAL: Yes. (She applied the "burn that thing" effect)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2e3fbd56664fdbc4