Negating the Baali's disadvantage?

I've been thinking lately of ways to negate the Baali's infernal cost and thought of a (new) way to do this. Now I don't know if any of you have made such a deck allready if so let me know how you've made it and if it worked. Baali and the Madness network. The main problems would be that you'd need several clan impersonations to turn you're Baali into a Malkavian. And you'd have to put a Protean skill card on him to be able to have a Homenculus. The advantages would be that you'de be able to take several actions with you're Baali in other people's turn without having to pay pool. The best Baali to do this with is offcourse HookiPooki since he allready has sup Aus Dom Obf and it's easy to turn him into a great beast. With his build in rush he's great for an OOT rush deck. SO let me know if you've been thinking about this kind of deck and how you'd make it I'll try to build it at home and post the deck here. Emile "we are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom"

"Emile Bosman" <ebo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cbf416fb.0206...@posting.google.com... > I've been thinking lately of ways to negate the Baali's infernal cost > and thought of a (new) way to do this. > Now I don't know if any of you have made such a deck allready if so > let me know how you've made it and if it worked. > > Baali and the Madness network. Talking about madness, another effective way should be Baali + Derange. As Angra Mainyu has Dementation, he can play them on his fellow baalis who can untap by paying a blood, rather by spending a pool. And you can still pass the cards on other vampires to get them stuck...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:29:36 +0200, "reyda" was wrong when he wrote: >Talking about madness, another effective way should be Baali + Derange. As >Angra Mainyu has Dementation, he can play them on his fellow baalis who can >untap by paying a blood, rather by spending a pool. And you can still pass >the cards on other vampires to get them stuck... You do not pay pool to untap Infernal vampires. If they are untapped via any means during the untap phase, you must pay one pool or tap them again at the end of the untap phase. Section 3.6 of the Bloodlines rules page. 3.6. Infernal Some minions are marked as "infernal." An infernal minion is one that has sold part of his soul to a demon (or demons). As such, the "control" his controller has over him is tainted by the control the demon has. This struggle for control is handled similar to contesting. During his or her untap phase, a Methuselah who controls an infernal minion burns one pool or taps that infernal minion. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

>>Talking about madness, another effective way should be Baali + Derange. As >>Angra Mainyu has Dementation, he can play them on his fellow baalis who can >>untap by paying a blood, rather by spending a pool. And you can still pass >>the cards on other vampires to get them stuck... > >You do not pay pool to untap Infernal vampires. >If they are untapped via any means during the untap phase, you must >pay one pool or tap them again at the end of the untap phase. > > >Section 3.6 of the Bloodlines rules page. > >3.6. Infernal >Some minions are marked as "infernal." An infernal minion is one that >has sold part of his soul to a demon (or demons). As such, the >"control" his controller has over him is tainted by the control the >demon has. This struggle for control is handled similar to contesting. >During his or her untap phase, a Methuselah who controls an infernal >minion burns one pool or taps that infernal minion. ??? Pertinent card text: Derange [Sabbat] Cardtype: Action Discipline: Dementation This is a +1 stealth action. [dem] (D) Put this card on a vampire. The vampire with this card is now considered to be a Malkavian antitribu and is no longer a member of his or her original clan. The vampire with this card may move it <to another vampire> as a (D) action. This card cannot be played on a Malkavian antitribu. [DEM] As above, and the vampire with this card does not untap as normal. {During his or her controller's untap phase}, he or she may burn 1 blood to untap. So Deranged (superior) Giotto (or whoever) does not untap as normal. Why can you not #1.) Decline to pay the Infernal cost and tap them (which has no effect since they are already tapped). #2.) Use the option provided by superior Derange to untap the vampire by burning a blood. It all seems fine to me... You state that: "If they are untapped via any means during the untap phase, you must pay one pool or tap them again at the end of the untap phase." So if I pay the Infernal cost to not tap an Infernal vampire, tap the vampire to do something, and then untap them (all during my untap phase), I now have to pay *another* pool to not tap that vampire again? (which BTW would violate the "During <X> do <Y>" limitation of once per <Y>. I think you might be coming to this conclusion from the Arika ruling: "Arika's Prey cannot end her untap phase if she controls a location that she hasn't burned a pool for, even if she gained control of that location sometime during her untap phase. [LSJ 19990405]" But as far as I know, this ruling only applies to Arika and not any other card that causes (or can cause) something to occur during the untap phase... Halcyan 2

In message <20020622191758...@mb-cb.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes: >Why can you not #1.) Decline to pay the Infernal cost and tap them (which has >no effect since they are already tapped). #2.) Use the option provided by >superior Derange to untap the vampire by burning a blood. It all seems fine to >me... Because this was covered right from day one: you can never leave your untap phase unless each infernal minion you control is tapped or you have paid the pool for the minion. See the Bloodlines Rules Sheet, Q & A. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

"Emile Bosman" <ebo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cbf416fb.0206...@posting.google.com... > I've been thinking lately of ways to negate the Baali's infernal cost > and thought of a (new) way to do this. > Now I don't know if any of you have made such a deck allready if so > let me know how you've made it and if it worked. > > Baali and the Madness network. > > The main problems would be that you'd need several clan impersonations > to turn you're Baali into a Malkavian. > And you'd have to put a Protean skill card on him to be able to have a > Homenculus. Bit long winded, maybe something simpler to do is give em Concordance and untap em in your influence phase, then act at the end of your prey's minion phase. Granted, you don't get as many actions as using Homonculi between everyone's turns but saves having to get Protean and the Homonculi. Also, if you're going rush, Concordance has other advantages. > The advantages would be that you'de be able to take several actions > with you're Baali in other people's turn without having to pay pool. > > The best Baali to do this with is offcourse HookiPooki since he > allready has sup Aus Dom Obf and it's easy to turn him into a great > beast. With his build in rush he's great for an OOT rush deck. > > SO let me know if you've been thinking about this kind of deck and how > you'd make it I'll try to build it at home and post the deck here. I think the best way to get around it I've heard of so far is using Blessing of the Name. BotN's disadvantage is pratically totally negated by the Baali. You have to tap the 3 vamps in question, no big deal, I wan't planning on paying the 1 pool to leave em untapped anyway. You can either go the Clan Impersonation angle or whack in a few !Salubri. Once I get some more BotN I'm planning on making a Baali + Adonai, Condemnation: Doomed + Concordance + Eagle's Sight. Possibly a few Tracker's Mark. I'd not bother with Adonai and Clan Impersonate but Adonai has AUS, which is needed for Eagles Sight and only Hutzi has and Auspex from the Baali.

James Coupe wrote: > In message <20020622191758...@mb-cb.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 > <halc...@aol.com> writes: > >Why can you not #1.) Decline to pay the Infernal cost and tap them (which has > >no effect since they are already tapped). #2.) Use the option provided by > >superior Derange to untap the vampire by burning a blood. It all seems fine to > >me... > > Because this was covered right from day one: > > you can never leave your untap > phase unless each infernal minion you control is > tapped or you have paid the pool for the minion. > > See the Bloodlines Rules Sheet, Q & A. Well, LSJ stated just the opposite on the thread below: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=8f9fffb1e7f5c51e&seekm=3C6E2AAB.C30A2891%40ono.com#link2 *Damnans wrote: *> *> Let's say I control an Infernal Baali with a Derange played at superior. *> *> UNTAP PHASE: *> *> 1st.- Giotto Verducci untaps by burning 1 blood (because of the *> Derange). *> 2nd.- Giotto Verducci taps, since I do want to burn 1 pool to untap him *> again. *> 3rd.- Giotto Verducci untaps again via the Derange's ability. *> *> Is this legal?. * *Yes. The better way to do it would be: * *1. Giotto doesn't untap as normal for being deranged. *2. Giotto taps for being infernal. (no effect, since he's already tapped). *3. Giotto pays 1 blood to untap via Derange. * *-- *LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. *Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: *http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <3D1570B1...@ono.com>, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> writes: >> >Why can you not #1.) Decline to pay the Infernal cost and tap them (which has >> >no effect since they are already tapped). #2.) Use the option provided by >> >superior Derange to untap the vampire by burning a blood. It all seems fine to >> >me... >> >> Because this was covered right from day one: >> >> you can never leave your untap >> phase unless each infernal minion you control is >> tapped or you have paid the pool for the minion. >> >> See the Bloodlines Rules Sheet, Q & A. > >Well, LSJ stated just the opposite on the thread below: LSJ may be interpreting "is tapped" as "has been tapped". The present tense aspect of "is tapped" tends, for me, to require a Rule Monger to interpret it as a description of the present state (i.e. tapped/untapped) rather than on past actions. Attempting to re-interpret the Q&A to say that: you can never leave your untap phase unless each infernal minion you control is tapped (at some point) or you have paid the pool for the minion or some similar sequence of implied words seems do-able, but a stretch. Of course, LSJ is (or, at least, should be, unless there's something going on I don't understand) aware of designer intent. However, were I to have the Q&A in front of me and not Google, that's the way I'd feel compelled to read it. That it was brought up specifically in the Q&A would also make me think "Aha, they thought about doing all these other untappy things during your untap phase and so made it illegal, didn't they? Clever them." [ quoted text not captured ]

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<uhamgsj...@news.supernews.com>... > "Emile Bosman" <ebo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:cbf416fb.0206...@posting.google.com... > > I've been thinking lately of ways to negate the Baali's infernal cost > > and thought of a (new) way to do this. > > Now I don't know if any of you have made such a deck allready if so > > let me know how you've made it and if it worked. > > > > Baali and the Madness network. > > > > The main problems would be that you'd need several clan impersonations > > to turn you're Baali into a Malkavian. > > And you'd have to put a Protean skill card on him to be able to have a > > Homenculus. > > Bit long winded, maybe something simpler to do is give em Concordance and > untap em in your influence phase, then act at the end of your prey's minion > phase. Granted, you don't get as many actions as using Homonculi between > everyone's turns but saves having to get Protean and the Homonculi. Also, if > you're going rush, Concordance has other advantages. > > > The advantages would be that you'de be able to take several actions > > with you're Baali in other people's turn without having to pay pool. > > > > The best Baali to do this with is offcourse HookiPooki since he > > allready has sup Aus Dom Obf and it's easy to turn him into a great > > beast. With his build in rush he's great for an OOT rush deck. > > > > SO let me know if you've been thinking about this kind of deck and how > > you'd make it I'll try to build it at home and post the deck here. > I haven't tried it yet, but instead of protean skill, you could also go for protean vampires and Heidelburg.. W

[ quoted text not captured ] This is still correct. The "pool or tap" effect must be done at some point during the untap phase, but need not be the last thing done. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Call me Mr. Stupid if this doesn't appeal, but surely the easiest way to negate the Baali's disadvantage is simply to put a Blood Doll on them. Then you have to pay to keep them untapped, but then they pay you back. A one card combo? (I know a combo by it's very definition requires at least two cards!) It does reduce the blood gain effect people normally use Blood Doll for, but most ways to negate the effect are going to cost the vampire blood in some way. Only other disadvantage, if you have 1 pool at the start of your turn, you are royally f**ked. Just a thought, as it might be a little easier to set up. May the night be yours! -- Andy "Slytherin" Brown VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge SET awakens, watch out all non-believers

In message <3D17180A...@sanger.ac.uk>, Andy Brown <a...@sanger.ac.uk> writes: >Call me Mr. Stupid if this doesn't appeal, but surely >the easiest way to negate the Baali's disadvantage is >simply to put a Blood Doll on them. Then you have to >pay to keep them untapped, but then they pay you back. And then they don't have a blood on them which - to get back - you have to generate. >It does reduce the blood gain effect people normally use >Blood Doll for, but most ways to negate the effect are going >to cost the vampire blood in some way. It depends. For instance, if you could pull Rutor's Hand off, you'd only have to invest the blood once. Of course, none of the Baali have Thaumaturgy - one might thing that the designers thought of that one. ;-p However, However, there are a number of interesting ways to untap the vampires which don't require *continuous* blood expenditure - Rutor's Hand using a Veneficorum Latinus Unspellablaris, or even at inferior since you probably have other vampires knocking around for a rescue would be one example - can be more useful. Of course, if you're playing Obf/Pre scary vote, spending blood with Awe to pass the vote and collecting with Voter Captivation, Blood Doll is probably a very good way indeed. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Andy Brown" <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message news:3D17180A...@sanger.ac.uk... > Call me Mr. Stupid if this doesn't appeal, but surely > the easiest way to negate the Baali's disadvantage is > simply to put a Blood Doll on them. Then you have to > pay to keep them untapped, but then they pay you back. Exactly right. A lot of the other ways people come up with (including myself) to avoid paying for Infernal turn out to be no better than just using Blood Doll - simple rule of thumb, if you're going to have to burn a blood instead of pool for the untap, use Blood Doll unless there's some other clever angle you're getting out of it. Derange for untaps doesn't normally (IMO) qualify as being more useful than Blood Doll to you. Homunculus/Impersonate/Madness Network conceivably could be, since you can get multiple untaps/ actions per time around the table that way, but it's also a harder combo to set up and foilable by someone burning the Network. Blessing of the Name is certainly better but requires you to use (or Impersonate into) !Salubri, which is a big disadvantage. :-) Josh baalzibubblicious

In message <af79cc$c0i45$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes: >Blessing of the Name is certainly better but requires >you to use (or Impersonate into) !Salubri, which is a big >disadvantage. :-) Possibly not. It does bring the combat bonus too, which might be good, depending on your deck. If there were a couple more !Salubri with AUS, it'd be nice to have them around for bleed defence back-up. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:6GCecji8$zF9...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <af79cc$c0i45$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin > <jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes: > >Blessing of the Name is certainly better but requires > >you to use (or Impersonate into) !Salubri, which is a big > >disadvantage. :-) > > Possibly not. It does bring the combat bonus too, which might be good, > depending on your deck. Having to use !Salubri is a big disadvantage, in my experience. I believe Ian Lee (curevei) feels the same way, even though he managed to win a tournament with a Baali of the Name deck. > If there were a couple more !Salubri with AUS, it'd be nice to have them > around for bleed defence back-up. If the !Salubri were better, they would be better, yes. ;-) Josh and if blessing of the name weren't r1...

In message <af79cc$c0i45$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about: >Exactly right. A lot of the other ways people come up with >(including myself) to avoid paying for Infernal turn out to be >no better than just using Blood Doll - simple rule of thumb, if >you're going to have to burn a blood instead of pool for the >untap, use Blood Doll unless there's some other clever angle >you're getting out of it. Big Minion Tap Shovel + Voter Cap also works for me. I've played a couple Baali decks since they've come out, and that's the most effective one. The Lasombra will tell you that no minion costing more than 3 is worth the starting pool you pay for them; this is doubly true of the Baali. Minion Tap them down to 1, don't use cards that cost blood, and if someone Rushes them, well, at least you don't have to pay to untap them anymore. Normally MT/VC is used to bloat and provide a cushion so that you can either ignore any pool damage your predator might attempt to generate OR get out 6+ minions; in a Baali deck, you don't get that option, as you simply pay for "the future". However, the Baali disciplines are sufficiently powerful that it starts to balance out -- Sense the Sin being the #1 candidate here, Psychomachia being another, and Contagion/Concordance being just plain amusing, although you DO have to figure out what to do with your untapped Baali since the only inherent bounce discipline is on Huitzilcalifragilisticexpialidocious. I also like the THA skill card/Rutor's Hand concept. With OBF, they have little to worry about as far as the "rescue other" action that has to happen on the same turn as the RH, and Count Ormonde can handle the "pick up the bodies" duties just fine. Don't forget that the Rutor's Hand gives you the OPTION of paying a pool for two actions that turn; stealth/bleed and stealth/vote, of course, being the first thing that comes to my mind. =) -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<af79cc$c0i45$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > "Andy Brown" <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message > news:3D17180A...@sanger.ac.uk... > > Call me Mr. Stupid if this doesn't appeal, but surely > > the easiest way to negate the Baali's disadvantage is > > simply to put a Blood Doll on them. Then you have to > > pay to keep them untapped, but then they pay you back. > > Exactly right. A lot of the other ways people come up with > (including myself) to avoid paying for Infernal turn out to be > no better than just using Blood Doll - simple rule of thumb, if > you're going to have to burn a blood instead of pool for the > untap, use Blood Doll unless there's some other clever angle > you're getting out of it. > > Derange for untaps doesn't normally (IMO) qualify as being more > useful than Blood Doll to you. Except Derange doesn't cost a Master Phase Action. If you played a Dementation skill card on Angra Mainyu just to play Derange, then you used a MPA anyway...hopefully creative use of Baali with Dementation might yet make this fruitful. I found the best way to untap, though, by accident: My Toreador opponent played Kindred Society Games on my Great Beast. (Thanks!) Can't count on that one, but it was nice. --Brian

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:af79cc$c0i45$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... > > "Andy Brown" <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message > news:3D17180A...@sanger.ac.uk... > > Call me Mr. Stupid if this doesn't appeal, but surely > > the easiest way to negate the Baali's disadvantage is > > simply to put a Blood Doll on them. Then you have to > > pay to keep them untapped, but then they pay you back. > > Exactly right. A lot of the other ways people come up with > (including myself) to avoid paying for Infernal turn out to be > no better than just using Blood Doll - simple rule of thumb, if > you're going to have to burn a blood instead of pool for the > untap, use Blood Doll unless there's some other clever angle > you're getting out of it. Blood Doll, is of course the easiest way to recover the cost, esp if you've got a blood gain mechanism as well. The main problem I've found so far with the Baali is that, whist you're using your minion's blood to pay to untap them ( thru Blood Doll ) everyone else is gaining 1 pool instead. If you pay to keep a Baali untapped, whatever you do with it has to be worth spending 1 pool on that no other minion could do instead. For me, so far, that only includes Condemnation: Doomed/Betrayed, Contagion, Concordance and Call the Great Beast. Sure, you could play Legal Manipulations and recover the cost, but why not use a PRE/OBF Settite and gain a pool instead? [ quoted text not captured ]

Correct me if I'm wrong since it's my first post . . . Carl's Infernal ways of negating the Baali's disadvantage by Impersonation: During the minion phase Limo's from Hell Approach Tori-Anti Trib : Patronage played to untap BOTH minions in a Mary & Sargon Celerity Presence deck with miss Greta Kircher untapping Mary or Jost Werner untaping Sargon at +2 stealth for that action during your minion phase. by Impersonation: During your influence phase Super Abyss Bros. Lasombra : Hi powered- Hi Cap Ambrosio Luis Moncada, Plenipotentiary (Mario) and Huitzilopochtli (Luigi) (impersonated to Lasombra for Ambrosio to untap) Auspects Dominate Presence Potence deck with Angela Preston (Princess Toadstool) to freak drive after an action to then tap again to cause one of the 2 bigger Bros. to block/react in a vote & screw deck.-but most of your turn is wasted saying thier names!

> I also like the THA skill card/Rutor's Hand concept. With OBF, they > have little to worry about as far as the "rescue other" action that has > to happen on the same turn as the RH, and Count Ormonde can handle the > "pick up the bodies" duties just fine. And with a concordance you don't go to torpor either...Simply an additional blood for the unpreventable aggro damage. > > Don't forget that the Rutor's Hand gives you the OPTION of paying a pool > for two actions that turn; stealth/bleed and stealth/vote, of course, > being the first thing that comes to my mind. =) > I rather prefer a Condemnation [doomed/betrayed] / bleed. Condemnations are damn too good to slow down your predator so you won't worry too much for his bleeds in a few turns. Also, due to the infernal question, baali decks usually use some kind of bloat mechanism. I know that bleed bounce is by far the best defense, but it's not compulsory to have 8 deflections in every deck. A baali/set deck can torment enough your predator, without ousting him or turning him on an easy prey for your grand-predator via condemnations/temptations BTW, what happens if I play a Condemnation: Doomed on a minion and then a temptation? If I take control of him, bleed and get blocked, who pays that pool?? Plain curiosity... Tom,Mad&Co [ quoted text not captured ]

Brian <firstco...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias 80bafd85.02062...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Why not?? It's possible to build a Toreador/baali deck with a few of this cards, so you play the KSG on your own infernal vamps and Villon/VanderVeken(both have obf). Som kind of vote deck, perhaps? KSG is not unique and you may play it on your own vamps, as it requires to be played "on a ready vampire". Same with Toreador Grand Ball, you may play a KSG on the tapped vamp target of the TGB so it may untap by paying one blood. > --Brian Tom,MAd&Co

CARL BRAUN <cjab...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias ace03d57.02062...@posting.google.com... > Correct me if I'm wrong since it's my first post . . . > Carl's Infernal ways of negating the Baali's disadvantage > > by Impersonation: During the minion phase > Limo's from Hell Approach > Tori-Anti Trib : Patronage played to untap BOTH minions in a Mary & > Sargon Celerity Presence deck with miss Greta Kircher untapping Mary > or Jost Werner untaping Sargon at +2 stealth for that action during > your minion phase. Can't see why it's worth. Patronage is limited to one per turn and costs one pool and can be blocked or DI. Tom,Mad&Co

"Tom, Mad & Co" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:af83vu$rka$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Condemnation: Doomed +1 stealth action. Condemnation. [obf]: (D) Tap a younger vampire. [dai]: Requires an infernal vampire. (D) Put this card on a ready minion. The minion with this card has -1 stealth. Burn all other Condemnations on this minion. [DAI]: As [dai] above, and the minion's controller burns 1 pool each time the minion is successfully blocked. When you burn the counters on Temptation, you control the minion, therefore you burn the pool if it gets blocked. C: Doomed is a great way to turn someone's minion into a blocker, it does a particularly good job of shafting decks that tend to rely on having 1 minion do most of the work. Combines well with Lunatic Eruption. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > I found the best way to untap, though, by accident: My Toreador > > opponent played Kindred Society Games on my Great Beast. (Thanks!) > > > > Can't count on that one, but it was nice. > > Why not?? It's possible to build a Toreador/baali deck with a few of this > cards, so you play the KSG on your own infernal vamps and > Villon/VanderVeken(both have obf). I meant you can't count on someone else paying the MPA for it, like happened in that game. > Som kind of vote deck, perhaps? KSG is > not unique and you may play it on your own vamps, as it requires to be > played "on a ready vampire". Same with Toreador Grand Ball, you may play a > KSG on the tapped vamp target of the TGB so it may untap by paying one > blood. Hey! I never thought about that, that's nice! --Brian

GreySeer wrote: > > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:af79cc$c0i45$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... > > > > "Andy Brown" <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message > > news:3D17180A...@sanger.ac.uk... > > > Call me Mr. Stupid if this doesn't appeal, but surely > > > the easiest way to negate the Baali's disadvantage is > > > simply to put a Blood Doll on them. Then you have to > > > pay to keep them untapped, but then they pay you back. > > > > Exactly right. A lot of the other ways people come up with > > (including myself) to avoid paying for Infernal turn out to be > > no better than just using Blood Doll - simple rule of thumb, if > > you're going to have to burn a blood instead of pool for the > > untap, use Blood Doll unless there's some other clever angle > > you're getting out of it. > > Blood Doll, is of course the easiest way to recover the cost, esp if you've > got a blood gain mechanism as well. The main problem I've found so far with > the Baali is that, whist you're using your minion's blood to pay to untap > them ( thru Blood Doll ) everyone else is gaining 1 pool instead. Absolutely, but every (?) way that anyone has suggested involves spending blood from vamps, and a lot of people are talking about using Master: Discipline cards anyway. Blood doll just does it a lot quicker, and you can only get suddened so many times. If someone suddens your blood doll, you are likely to have a few more (you need them after all). If someone DI's any of the many minion cards people are suggesting you need, or suddens your Madness Network, then you could well be screwed, as you need say at least 4 copies of each card to guarantee drawing them when needed. Can anyone say "Hand Jam"? > If you pay > to keep a Baali untapped, whatever you do with it has to be worth spending 1 > pool on that no other minion could do instead. For me, so far, that only > includes Condemnation: Doomed/Betrayed, Contagion, Concordance and Call the > Great Beast. Sure, you could play Legal Manipulations and recover the cost, > but why not use a PRE/OBF Settite and gain a pool instead? I agree, but I thought the thread was suggesting ways of negating the disadvantage, not reasons to do so. I personally have only tried playing with 2 of them. Mary, The Black in my Eastenders themed deck, and Sargon after seeing someone else use him. Personally though, I don't use the Baali, as I find that paying the pool is a pain, but I have seen them do well as supplementary characters for a deck for their specials, and as you say, I would rather gain pool than lose it. May the night be yours [ quoted text not captured ]

"Andy Brown" <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message news:3D1810C6...@sanger.ac.uk... [ quoted text not captured ] Just as an aside, it really annoys me that so many ppl seem to see DI as the be-all-and-end-all of combo breakers. Someone comes up with a good combo and someone else says, "oh, I could just DI card x and you'd be stuffed". I call the card Direct Cop-out. I can't be bothered trying to deal with most strategies so I'll just pack a few DI's and I'll be fine. I think I'm going to pack more Sudden Reversals in my decks just so I can SR those stinking DIs. I mean, jeez, the guy out played/thought you or built a better deck, bend over and take it. > > If you pay > > to keep a Baali untapped, whatever you do with it has to be worth spending 1 > > pool on that no other minion could do instead. For me, so far, that only > > includes Condemnation: Doomed/Betrayed, Contagion, Concordance and Call the > > Great Beast. Sure, you could play Legal Manipulations and recover the cost, > > but why not use a PRE/OBF Settite and gain a pool instead? > > I agree, but I thought the thread was suggesting ways of negating the > disadvantage, not reasons to do so. I personally have only tried playing > with > 2 of them. Mary, The Black in my Eastenders themed deck, and Sargon > after > seeing someone else use him. Personally though, I don't use the Baali, > as I find > that paying the pool is a pain, but I have seen them do well as > supplementary > characters for a deck for their specials, and as you say, I would rather > gain pool > than lose it. My point is, most of the means of negating the disadvantage are also negating an advatage you would be otherwise be getting. Either that, or, as pointed out, could be achieved with a blood doll. I've got 2 decks that have a Baali in it for their special and I usually don't need them untapped but I am planning on building a mostly Baali deck, Blessing of the Name at this stage seems to be the only decent means of getting around the infernal penalty.

GreySeer wrote: > > Just as an aside, it really annoys me that so many ppl seem to see DI as the > be-all-and-end-all of combo breakers. Someone comes up with a good combo and > someone else says, "oh, I could just DI card x and you'd be stuffed". I call > the card Direct Cop-out. I can't be bothered trying to deal with most > strategies so I'll just pack a few DI's and I'll be fine. I think I'm going > to pack more Sudden Reversals in my decks just so I can SR those stinking > DIs. I mean, jeez, the guy out played/thought you or built a better deck, > bend over and take it. > I personally agree with you. I was only mentioning that DI can break a combo. I don't have enough to warrant putting them in a deck purely to stop something, as when I draw it, I'd have to play with a six-card hand + DI in order to ensure I could use it. I'd also rather see what people are doing, and either a) applaud how it works or b) laugh when it fails. I only mentioned it as I played a friendly with Legbiter, Anklebiter and Barny down in London. It was the first time I had seen the turbo Baron deck. James got set up, and was just about to take the action to equip The Baron with the Soul Gem, when Michael DI'd the Soul Gem, therefore breaking the combo. It is in fact the only game I have seen Turbo Baron and DI breaking a combo, but in a tourney, if you want to be able to stop things shitting on you from a great height, you may need to pack a catch-all solution, if you really want to win. If you want to play for fun, then DI is a card that should not be in your deck, as you want to play, not stop, anything that comes at you. Anyway, I am getting of target now. I'll not mail about DI again, sorry to those who aren't interested. May the night be yours P.S. As myself and Barny (and a few others watching) had never seen the Baron work, Michael took back the DI, and let us see what would happened. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Tom, Mad & Co" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<af84np$3ek$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Hi, this is too my first post in this group. I also think that untapping an infernal vampire has a hight cost, so it must be used to do "great task". I proved a Giotto Verducci/Nosferatu dekc, using Freak drives and 5nd Tradition. It was a control deck, so it had combat, politic, bleed and intercept. using freak drives, allows me performing many actions with Goitto the during same turn(Condenation, Contagion, 3bleed) and Conflagration(usabla as well by the Nosfes), Shallowed by nigth, prevention cards and Disarm turned him in a killing machine. But remember, this is only a point of wiew :-) Basa.

"Andy Brown" <a...@sanger.ac.uk> wrote in message news:3D183770...@sanger.ac.uk... > GreySeer wrote: > > > > Just as an aside, it really annoys me that so many ppl seem to see DI as the > > be-all-and-end-all of combo breakers. Someone comes up with a good combo and > > someone else says, "oh, I could just DI card x and you'd be stuffed". I call > > the card Direct Cop-out. I can't be bothered trying to deal with most > > strategies so I'll just pack a few DI's and I'll be fine. I think I'm going > > to pack more Sudden Reversals in my decks just so I can SR those stinking > > DIs. I mean, jeez, the guy out played/thought you or built a better deck, > > bend over and take it. > > > > I personally agree with you. I was only mentioning that DI can break a combo. I didn't mean to imply anything with that comment what you said just reminded me about something I wanted to bitch about :) > I don't have enough to warrant putting them in a deck purely to stop something, > as when I draw it, I'd have to play with a six-card hand + DI in order to ensure > I could use it. I'd also rather see what people are doing, and either > > a) applaud how it works > > or > > b) laugh when it fails. Me too. I've never been too keen on SR or DI because they usually either end up making you play with 1 less hand size for too long as you wait for a good oppourtunity or you end up using it on something that probably wasn't worth it. > I only mentioned it as I played a friendly with Legbiter, Anklebiter and > Barny down in London. It was the first time I had seen the turbo Baron > deck. > > James got set up, and was just about to take the action to equip The Baron > with the Soul Gem, when Michael DI'd the Soul Gem, therefore breaking > the combo. > > It is in fact the only game I have seen Turbo Baron and DI breaking a combo, > but in a tourney, if you want to be able to stop things shitting on you from > a great height, you may need to pack a catch-all solution, if you really > want to win. If you want to play for fun, then DI is a card that should not > be in your deck, as you want to play, not stop, anything that comes at you. > > Anyway, I am getting of target now. I'll not mail about DI again, sorry to those > who aren't interested. > > May the night be yours > > P.S. As myself and Barny (and a few others watching) had never seen the > Baron work, Michael took back the DI, and let us see what would happened. One of the beautiful things about the Turbo Baron deck, when it gets going, even a bit, is the specials of the vampires you bring out. Soul Gem got burned? Put it back in your deck your deck with Pochtli. Not that there shouldn't be at least 2 and you should be using Vast Weath to get it.

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:uhf447m...@news.supernews.com... > Blood Doll, is of course the easiest way to recover the cost, esp if you've > got a blood gain mechanism as well. The main problem I've found so far with > the Baali is that, whist you're using your minion's blood to pay to untap > them ( thru Blood Doll ) everyone else is gaining 1 pool instead. If you pay > to keep a Baali untapped, whatever you do with it has to be worth spending 1 > pool on that no other minion could do instead. For me, so far, that only > includes Condemnation: Doomed/Betrayed, Contagion, Concordance and Call the > Great Beast. Sure, you could play Legal Manipulations and recover the cost, > but why not use a PRE/OBF Settite and gain a pool instead? Well, PRE/OBF Setites start at fairly high capacity too. Angra Mainyu's an 8 but has a kick-ass special compared to, say, Sarrasine, Qufur Am-Heru, or Intisar. Likewise Giotto's abilities are super-rockin', and Mary the Black isn't bad. Sense the Sin is also kind of strong. Compared to, say, Aire of Elation. You're right that no matter what, you're going to be 1 pool/ blood down per turn with Baali, and yeah, there has to be some reason that that's worth it. I was just saying that Blood Doll is the most effort you probably want to put into converting vampire blood into untapped Baali. :-) Josh contaged

"CARL BRAUN" <cjab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ace03d57.02062...@posting.google.com... > by Impersonation: During your influence phase > Super Abyss Bros. > Lasombra : Hi powered- Hi Cap Ambrosio Luis Moncada, Plenipotentiary > (Mario) and Huitzilopochtli (Luigi) (impersonated to Lasombra for > Ambrosio to untap) Auspects Dominate Presence Potence deck with Angela > Preston (Princess Toadstool) to freak drive after an action to then > tap again to cause one of the 2 bigger Bros. to block/react in a vote > & screw deck.-but most of your turn is wasted saying thier names! I like this idea a lot, but with Ambrosio's ability you don't get to *act* with Huitzilopochtli without paying the pool... maybe the same thing with Alexandra instead would be better? PRE dom AUS in common with Huitzi. I might try this sometime. :-) Josh likes the huitzi one

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:afa2r2$cca61$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de... > > "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message > news:uhf447m...@news.supernews.com... > > > Blood Doll, is of course the easiest way to recover the cost, esp if > you've > > got a blood gain mechanism as well. The main problem I've found so far > with > > the Baali is that, whist you're using your minion's blood to pay to untap > > them ( thru Blood Doll ) everyone else is gaining 1 pool instead. If you > pay > > to keep a Baali untapped, whatever you do with it has to be worth spending > 1 > > pool on that no other minion could do instead. For me, so far, that only > > includes Condemnation: Doomed/Betrayed, Contagion, Concordance and Call > the > > Great Beast. Sure, you could play Legal Manipulations and recover the > cost, > > but why not use a PRE/OBF Settite and gain a pool instead? > > Well, PRE/OBF Setites start at fairly high capacity too. > Angra Mainyu's an 8 but has a kick-ass special compared to, > say, Sarrasine, Qufur Am-Heru, or Intisar. Likewise Giotto's > abilities are super-rockin', and Mary the Black isn't bad. Their abilities are cool, just depends on wether you can get 1 pool's worth ( or -1 action's worth ) out of their specials. Mary works well in a Settite deck I have because of her agg hand damage. Good as defense against rush decks, against which you can usually afford to spend the 1 pool a turn. > Sense the Sin is also kind of strong. Compared to, say, > Aire of Elation. Yeah, StS is nice, but depends on the deck of course. > You're right that no matter what, you're going to be 1 pool/ > blood down per turn with Baali, and yeah, there has to be > some reason that that's worth it. I was just saying that > Blood Doll is the most effort you probably want to put into > converting vampire blood into untapped Baali. :-) > Blood Doll is the simplest and most effective. Blessing of the Name doesn't take too much extra effort and is quite effective too.

>> You're right that no matter what, you're going to be 1 pool/ >> blood down per turn with Baali, and yeah, there has to be >> some reason that that's worth it. I was just saying that >> Blood Doll is the most effort you probably want to put into >> converting vampire blood into untapped Baali. :-) >> > >Blood Doll is the simplest and most effective. Blessing of the Name doesn't >take too much extra effort and is quite effective too. I don't think I can put a response into words. Effective as long as you don't need bleed bounce (cuz there isn't room to add this as well) and no one ever blocks a BotN (especially crosstable) and people don't rush (or otherwise mess with) your !Salubri until they explode.

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20020626140030...@mb-mw.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] The preferable option is to turn one of your Baali into a !Salubri. The deck I am planning on building is going to have a signifigant combat component. BotN to untap to act, Concordance to be untapped to block. Some cloaks will help get BotN through if I haven't managed to impersonate w/ a Baali. Defense will be mostly intercept ( mainly Sense the Sin and BotN ) and not bounce, esp since Baali don't have much access to bounce anyway.

> The preferable option is to turn one of your Baali into a !Salubri. The deck > I am planning on building is going to have a signifigant combat component. > BotN to untap to act, Concordance to be untapped to block. Some cloaks will > help get BotN through if I haven't managed to impersonate w/ a Baali. > Defense will be mostly intercept ( mainly Sense the Sin and BotN ) and not > bounce, esp since Baali don't have much access to bounce anyway. > > Then you should add some melee weapons since the damage bonus from the blessing of the name only applies to melee weapons.With a concordance and a BOTN that poker will blow for 4 each strike. You should also add forgotten labyrinth to get those botn passed. Tom

"Tom, Mad & Co" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:afeppv$qan$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net... [ quoted text not captured ] I haven't decided on the overall content combat wise, depends on how many slots I have left over. I like the flight cards so I might go a combination of Pokers and Pounce. I probably won't use Forgotten Labyrinth because it costs 1 blood, probably use Lost in Crowds.