[LSJ] Slaughtering the Herd + Descent into Darkness

Couldn't find anything relevant on the subject. Situation: Henry Lavenant successfully puts Slaughtering the herd at superior on Brooke. Henry Lavenant successfully plays a superior Descent into Darkness. He gains 2 blood and declines to come back into play. Brooke takes an action (she has more than 0 blood) Does Brooke move a blood to Henry even though he's out of play? (the Slaughtering the Herd isn't) I guess so, but I'm not sure. Thanks in Advance. -Bram Vink

"Darky" <jja....@hccnet.nl> a écrit dans le message de news:93148a54.0407...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Lavenant is out of play to put blood on a vampire out of play requires special card text. Brooke does not move blood to Henry (same thing if henry's controller were ousted)

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:4104290d$0$20708$79c1...@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net... [ quoted text not captured ] If I'm correct, the Slaughtering the Herd doesn't "remember" it was played by Henry, so it has no more effect as soon as Henry leaves play, similar to when he would have gotten banished. And what if Gabrin with 2 obtenebration skill cards puts Sens Dep on Brooke and then plays Descent into Darkness? I assume Sens Dep no longer has effect, since card effects don't track minions out of play? LSJ?

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:50:56 +0200, "Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> scrawled: >"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht >news:4104290d$0$20708$79c1...@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net... >> "Darky" <jja....@hccnet.nl> a écrit dans le message de >> news:93148a54.0407...@posting.google.com... >> > Couldn't find anything relevant on the subject. >> > >> > Situation: >> > Henry Lavenant successfully puts Slaughtering the herd at superior >on >> > Brooke. >> > Henry Lavenant successfully plays a superior Descent into Darkness. >> > He gains 2 blood and declines to come back into play. >> > Brooke takes an action (she has more than 0 blood) >> > >> > Does Brooke move a blood to Henry even though he's out of play? (the >> > Slaughtering the Herd isn't) I guess so, but I'm not sure. >> >> Lavenant is out of play >> to put blood on a vampire out of play requires special card text. >> Brooke does not move blood to Henry (same thing if henry's controller >were >> ousted) Correct >If I'm correct, the Slaughtering the Herd doesn't "remember" it was >played by Henry, so it has no more effect as soon as Henry leaves play, >similar to when he would have gotten banished. The Slaughtering would remember it was played by Henry. Henry, however, wouldn't remember playing the Slaughtering. Which doesn't matter. Once he returns to play, he again can receive blood from the herd-slaughtered vampire. Presuming my extrapolation of a Rack/Banishment ruling is correct, that is: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B729B12.57AAC3B4%40white-wolf.com >And what if Gabrin with 2 obtenebration skill cards puts Sens Dep on >Brooke and then plays Descent into Darkness? I assume Sens Dep no longer >has effect, since card effects don't track minions out of play? Sense Dep has explicit text to get 'turned off' as soon as the vampire that played it leaves play: "The minion with this card does not untap as normal during the untap phase as long as the acting vampire remains in play." salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4104290d$0$20708$79c1...@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] correct.

salem wrote: > The Slaughtering would remember it was played by Henry. Henry, Correct. > however, wouldn't remember playing the Slaughtering. Which doesn't > matter. Once he returns to play, he again can receive blood from the > herd-slaughtered vampire. As you say, it doesn't matter, but he would remember. Banished/Contested vampires remember stuff, and stuff remembers them. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:52:28 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: >> The Slaughtering would remember it was played by Henry. Henry, > >Correct. > >> however, wouldn't remember playing the Slaughtering. Which doesn't >> matter. Once he returns to play, he again can receive blood from the >> herd-slaughtered vampire. > >As you say, it doesn't matter, but he would remember. >Banished/Contested vampires remember stuff, and stuff remembers them. so it's just burned vampires that forget stuff then? (eg: NRA). what about vampires returned to a crypt that then come back into play? (because, like, that happens all the time ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

"salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:kvq9g0popu42ncia4...@4ax.com... > what about vampires returned to a crypt that then come back into play? > (because, like, that happens all the time ;) Forgotten/forgetful. The ash heap, library, and crypt all "wash" the cards clean (except for a memory of how they got there, in the case of the ash heap and certain retrieval mechanisms). [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2mk8qoF...@uni-berlin.de>... > "salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:kvq9g0popu42ncia4...@4ax.com... > > what about vampires returned to a crypt that then come back into play? > > (because, like, that happens all the time ;) > > > Forgotten/forgetful. > The ash heap, library, and crypt all "wash" the cards clean (except > for a memory of how they got there, in the case of the ash heap and > certain retrieval mechanisms). Meaning... I have 2× Francois Villon, Isabel de Leon and Masika in my uncontrolled region. I influence out Villon and Isabel, then play Toreador Grand Ball. If one Villon is Banished, and I influence out the other Villon, will TGB work for him? Either way? Or must I influence out the very same Villon? This brings up some interesting questions... Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > I have 2× Francois Villon, Isabel de Leon and Masika in my > uncontrolled region. > > I influence out Villon and Isabel, then play Toreador Grand Ball. If > one Villon is Banished, and I influence out the other Villon, will TGB > work for him? Either way? Or must I influence out the very same > Villon? This brings up some interesting questions... Very same. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F5C741C.2040607%40white-wolf.com [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<50qNc.334278$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Daneel wrote: > > I have 2в Francois Villon, Isabel de Leon and Masika in my > > uncontrolled region. > > > > I influence out Villon and Isabel, then play Toreador Grand Ball. If > > one Villon is Banished, and I influence out the other Villon, will TGB > > work for him? Either way? Or must I influence out the very same > > Villon? This brings up some interesting questions... > > Very same. > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F5C741C.2040607%40white-wolf.com Thanks. However... Does this imply that there is an order in which the crypt cards are to be kept in the uncontrolled region? I had the impression that one could "shuffle" them (change their order) freely (like to sort by capacity, clan, whatever). Seems like it is against the rules to alter their order, for the sake of effects like this. Am I right? Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > Thanks. However... Does this imply that there is an order in which the > crypt cards are to be kept in the uncontrolled region? I had the > impression that one could "shuffle" them (change their order) freely > (like to sort by capacity, clan, whatever). Seems like it is against > the rules to alter their order, for the sake of effects like this. Am > I right? You are free to arrange and rearrange them as you like. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<QyLNc.340447$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Daneel wrote: > > Thanks. However... Does this imply that there is an order in which the > > crypt cards are to be kept in the uncontrolled region? I had the > > impression that one could "shuffle" them (change their order) freely > > (like to sort by capacity, clan, whatever). Seems like it is against > > the rules to alter their order, for the sake of effects like this. Am > > I right? > > You are free to arrange and rearrange them as you like. It is quite reassuring to know. I always arrange my crypt cards based on a logical sequence (for example the order I plan to influence them). I must confess though that the implications on the current topic do baffle me. ;) How can I distinguish one copy of Francois Villon from another, if neither copy has any cards or couters on it? If the owning player must place the banished Villon separately from the rest of his or her uncontrolled crypt cards (or mark it in some other fashion) in order to prove that it is that particular Villon, it could be specifically targeted by cards like Memory's Fading Glimpse. If, on the other hand, the owner could simply state that "this Villon is that Villon", he could possibly take advantage of the other players not knowing the exact cards in his or her uncontrolled region. Are crypt cards that were formerly in play but were moved (directly from play) to the uncontrolled region marked somehow? To distinguish them from the crypt cards which were never introduced to play yet? (I'm thinking of keeping them face up or something to show their former status.) Side question: assuming I have only one copy of Dominique in my deck. She is Banished from play by my prey, and my predator succesfully plays Kaymakli Nightmares. If I draw her again (as the effect of Kaymakli Nightmares), it still won't be the same Dominique game-mechanics-wise, will it? Does it matter whether I have exhausted my crypt or not? Thanks, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:a23a105e.04072...@posting.google.com... > It is quite reassuring to know. I always arrange my crypt cards based > on a logical sequence (for example the order I plan to influence > them). > > I must confess though that the implications on the current topic do > baffle me. ;) How can I distinguish one copy of Francois Villon from > another, if neither copy has any cards or couters on it? You have to track it. See http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DB7F82D.EE4A6BF7%40white-wolf.com and the surrounding thread. > If the owning player must place the banished Villon separately from > the rest of his or her uncontrolled crypt cards (or mark it in some > other fashion) in order to prove that it is that particular Villon, it > could be specifically targeted by cards like Memory's Fading Glimpse. > If, on the other hand, the owner could simply state that "this Villon > is that Villon", he could possibly take advantage of the other players > not knowing the exact cards in his or her uncontrolled region. Yes. So long as he is honest about it. Here's another article from the above-cited thread: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DB93033.BF103BD5%40white-wolf.com > Are crypt cards that were formerly in play but were moved (directly > from play) to the uncontrolled region marked somehow? To distinguish > them from the crypt cards which were never introduced to play yet? > (I'm thinking of keeping them face up or something to show their > former status.) They are tracked by the owner. They are not marked in any way that the other players can determine (asside from the number of counters and/or cards stacked on the crypt card, of course). They are face down in the uncontrolled region. > Side question: assuming I have only one copy of Dominique in my deck. > She is Banished from play by my prey, and my predator succesfully > plays Kaymakli Nightmares. If I draw her again (as the effect of > Kaymakli Nightmares), it still won't be the same Dominique > game-mechanics-wise, will it? Does it matter whether I have exhausted > my crypt or not? She will have been washed clean by her trip through the crypt, yes. Whether your crypt was empty before KN doesn't matter. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2mq06hF...@uni-berlin.de>... > "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:a23a105e.04072...@posting.google.com... > > I must confess though that the implications on the current topic do > > baffle me. ;) How can I distinguish one copy of Francois Villon from > > another, if neither copy has any cards or couters on it? > > You have to track it. > > See http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DB7F82D.EE4A6BF7%40white-wolf.com > and the surrounding thread. Thanks, the thread is pretty interesting. It basically answered all my questions, but brought up a new one in the meantime... ;) The problem of redesignation... Assuming I don't use any distinction between the two Villons (because they are both at zero blood, and practically indistinguishable, for example). Suddenly an effect makes their difference relevant (say, my predator succesfully plays Brainwash on one copy). I can basically redesignate the formerly in-play Villon to be the other one. This seems like abusable, even if it is a cornercase. It could possibly be better to avoid this by enforcing some form of designation (like turning formerly in-play cards in their sleeves, or adding a thin piece of paper, if necessary). Also, one of your answers was not clear for me. Can a predator play Brainwash and specify "on Villon" or "on the formerly in play Villon"? > > Side question: assuming I have only one copy of Dominique in my deck. > > She is Banished from play by my prey, and my predator succesfully > > plays Kaymakli Nightmares. If I draw her again (as the effect of > > Kaymakli Nightmares), it still won't be the same Dominique > > game-mechanics-wise, will it? Does it matter whether I have exhausted > > my crypt or not? > > She will have been washed clean by her trip through the crypt, yes. > Whether your crypt was empty before KN doesn't matter. I thought so. Thanks! Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2mq06hF...@uni-berlin.de>... >>See http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DB7F82D.EE4A6BF7%40white-wolf.com >>and the surrounding thread. > > Thanks, the thread is pretty interesting. It basically answered all my > questions, but brought up a new one in the meantime... ;) > > The problem of redesignation... Assuming I don't use any distinction > between the two Villons (because they are both at zero blood, and > practically indistinguishable, for example). Suddenly an effect makes > their difference relevant (say, my predator succesfully plays > Brainwash on one copy). > > I can basically redesignate the formerly in-play Villon to be the > other one. This seems like abusable, even if it is a cornercase. It No. Per that thread, you must maintain the designation. If you lose track, then you must redesignate. If someone attempts to play Brainwash and you notice that you have lost track, then you interrupt them to perform the redesignation and then they choose the target. Or, since it's the same thing, wait until they place the card then flip a coin. If the Brainwash was not on a Villon, then ignore the results of the coin toss and mentally redesignate the Villons as you like. If the Brainwash is on a Villon, then treat heads as if the one with the Brainwash had been in play and tails as if the other one had. In a tournament, of course, the player playing the Brainwash should simply call a judge over to cement the designations prior to the Brainwash being played. > could possibly be better to avoid this by enforcing some form of > designation (like turning formerly in-play cards in their sleeves, or > adding a thin piece of paper, if necessary). As suggested in the thread, yes, front-side sticky papers can be used. Sleeve inversion would also work, of course. > Also, one of your answers was not clear for me. Can a predator play > Brainwash and specify "on Villon" or "on the formerly in play Villon"? With no way to tell which Villon is which, and indeed no way to tell the Villons from any other uncontrolled vampire, the predator is limited to "that card there", not to "a Villon" and certainly not to "the Villon formerly in play". [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<4108C4CC...@white-wolf.com>... [snip] Thank you very much. You've been absolutely clear in all points. I've no further questions regarding this subject. Bye, Daneel