rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

NoR Spoilers or whatever?

35 messages from 18 participants · 09 April 2006 – 12 April 2006
original thread on Google Groups

pd...@lightlink.com

Hey! Anyone who got to play in a pre-release wanna, like, post some spoilers or something for those of us who didn't, and are impatient? I don't need, like, full card texts or anything, but any particularly crazy new cards would be nice, and what cards the Rules Cards double as would be cool too. Thanks! -Peter

JH

Here you go... SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE John "Cop90" O'Malley 4-capacity Avenger Judgement Vengeance John may enter combat with a monster as a (D) action that costs 1 conviction. my favorite hunter Jack "Hannibal137" Harmon 4-capacity Defender Defense Judgement Jack gets an optional maneuver on the first round of combat. Lupe "Cabbie22" Droin 4-capacity Defender Defense Vengeance If lupe has a vehicle, once each action she may burn a conviction to get +1 stealth or +1 intercept. Xian "DziDzat155" Quan 4-capacity Defender Defense Innocence If Xian successfully blocks a monster and is still ready at the end of the action, he may gain a conviction from your hand or ash heap. Erick "Shophet125" Franco 4-capacity Judge Innocence Judgement If Erick successfully enters combat with a monster as an action, he may gain a conviction from your hand or ash heap (before combat begins). and my #2 favorite Francois "Warden" Loehr 3-capacity Judge Defense Judgement (D) actions that target Francois cost an additional blood or life. Paul "Sixofswords29" Moreton 4-capacity Visionary Defense Vision During your influence phase, you may move a counter from your pool to an imbued in your uncontrolled region. Champion Defense Power [Reaction] [2 conviction] Only usable when a monster controlled by another Methuselah is taking a (D) action against you or against an imbued controlled by any player. The action fails and the acting monster enters combat with this imbued instead. Living Woodstaff Avenger Equipment X convicition Unique melee weapon. Strength damage each strike. Imbued inflict +X damage each strike with this weapon. Using cleave with this weapon will not burn this weapon. Moise Kasavubu Ally 2 pool Unique mortal with 1 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed. Requires a ready imbued. Moise may strike for 2R damage. He may take a +1 stealth action to search your library (shuffle afterward) or hand for an equipment and move it to any ready imbued you control (that imbued must meet the requirements and pay the cost as normal). Vigil: The Thin Line Defender Master Master: unique hunter-list Put this card in play. Tap this card to give a Defender +1 intercept when a monster is acting.

Dorrinal Blackmantle

SPOILER [ quoted text not captured ] SPOILER Rules Cards have: Info Highway, Elder Library, Effective Management, Fake Out, Boxed In, .44 Magnum, Meat Cleaver, and probably more. Angel of Berlin Master Master: out-of-turn. Requires a ready imbued. Untap an imbued, or equip a ready imbued you control with an equipment from your hand (requirements must be met; pay cost as normal). Not usable during combat. Unity Master Visionary Master: unique hunter-list. Tap this card and burn 1 pool to move two card that require an imbued (or a creed or a virtue) from your ash heap to the top of your library. You may then cut your library once. Discern Action (Power) Justice [Reaction] +1 intercept. Only usable when a monster is acting. Vigilance Action (Power) Justice [Action Modifier] Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action). Untap this imbued. [Reaction] [1 Conviction] Untap this imbued. ^Holy crap! I love this vigilance! Break the Code Event Gehenna. Imbued get -1 intercept when attempting to block monsters. A ready monster can enter combat with an imbued as a (D) action. -- Dorrinal Blackmantle Chronicler of Clan Tremere Chantry Elder of Salt Lake City

Screaming Vermillian

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > SPOILER > Break the Code > Event > Gehenna. > Imbued get -1 intercept when attempting to block monsters. A ready > monster can enter combat with an imbued as a (D) action. Yeah! Another Gehenna event! :)

itan...@gmail.com

[ quoted text not captured ] but... it's optional against imbued... in other words... another optional wallpaper card...

The Lasombra

The Lasombra

sutekh_23

Spoilers Away! Crypt Cards Leaf "potter116" Pankowski 4 cap Redeemer Innocence / Vision / Redemption During your discard phase leaf may tap to gain a conviction card from your library, hand or ash heap Peter "outback295" Rophail 4 cap Redeemer Redemption / Vengeance While peter is in combat with a monster he may burn a conviction to get a maneuver Marion "teacher193" Perks 4 cap Redeemer Redemption / Judgement Marion gets an optional press each combat Beatrice "oracle171" Tremblay 4 cap Innocent Innocence / Vengeance During your untap phase, another ready imbued you control takes 1 unpreventable damage. +1 bleed Jennie "cassie247" Orne 5 cap Visionary Vision / Judgement / Innocence Any incapacitated imbued may moce to the ready region by burning 2 conviction during any methuselah's untap phase Inez "nurse216" Villagrande 3 cap Innocent Innocence When Inez enters play, you may search your library or hand for a power that requires innocence and put it on her Pedro Cortez 4 cap Avenger Vengance / Martyrdom +1 strength. Pedro cannot manuver to long range, press to end combat or end combat as a strike Maman Boumba 4 cap Martyr Innocence / Martyrdom During a referendum, Maman may burn a conviction to get 3 votes against the referendum. You may tap Maman before range is determined in a combat between two monsters to end that combat. Earl "Shaka74" Deams 6 cap Visionary Judgement / Vision / Martyrdom Earl gets +1 stealth on actions other than actions to enter combat. During your untap phase, if you control more than 2 ready imbued, Earl burns 1 conviction Anna "dictatrix11" Suljic 6 cap Martyr Martyrdom / Redemption / Vision Anna may move 2 blood from the blood bank to any vampire as a +1 stealth action. During your untap phase, you may look at the top 3 cards of your library Thats about half the crypt cards. Most of them are pretty cool but working them into a good deck may be a bit hard. (considering the diversity of power spread) Fortunatly the Conviction cards cover the main bases of actions. Conviction cards Second sight- its on the site, have a look yourself Strike With Conviction Burn to make a hand or weapon strike against a monster at +1 damage. Burn to bleed at +1 bleed as a D action React With Conviction When and effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect. Burn this card to cancel either a D action against this imbued that requires Chimerstry, Dementation, Dominate, Presence or Serpentis or a strike that requires any of those Disciplines played by a minion opposing this imbued as it is announced. No cost is paid. So the conviction cards cover bleed, strikes, intercept, anti intercept and minion theft. Other "cool" cards The Church of Vindicated Faith Master, unique location. Requires a ready imbued Cost: 1 Pool When an imbued successfully performs an action, tap this card to move 1 blood from the blood bank to an imbued in your uncontrolled region The Crusader Sword Unique Melee Weapon Cost: 1 Pool Strength +1 aggravated damage each strike. Only usable by a minion with true faith or an imbued. Vampires opposing this minion with true faith or this imbued cannot use maneuvers to go to close range Edge Explosion Gehenna Requires at least one other gehenna card in play. Each Imbued can have (and use) one power card for which he or she doesn't meet the requirements. An imbued that performs a successful action may gain 1 conviction from his or her ash heap. An Imbued can only gain 1 conviction this way each turn. Surge Vengeance Power [combat / reaction] Burn 1 conviction, Put 3 surge counters on this imbued. This imbued may burn any number of surge counters to prevent that amount of non-aggravated damage. Burn all surge counters on this imbued at the end of the action Inflict Martyrdom combat card Cost: 1 conviction Only usable before range is determined For the remainder of this combat, the amount of damage inflicted on this imbued by hand strikes, melee weapon strikes or retainers is also inflicted on the striking minion or damage dealing retainer, even if this imbued prevents the damage. Shame Redemption power [combat] Only usable before strikes are chosen Burn 2 conviction. Burn this card. the opposing monster takes an amout of damage equal to his or her strength, then the combat ends. Not useable on a infernal minion, a vampire with a capacity above 7, nor a vampire with Memories of Mortality or Humanitas. There is some of the cards out there in the new set, but thats enough typing for me. Enjoy Sutekh_23

gpett...@gmail.com

The Lasombra wrote: > 5 of the 17 rules cards > http://dnn.vtes.net/NightsofReckoning/tabid/466/Default.aspx?AlbumID=996-34 > Why are there only 17 Rules cards? Why not 20? Right off the top of my head, I can think of 2 cards that would have had a hugely beneficial impact on the prerelease - Ascendance and Sport Bike, and they fit the prerequisite tiny text. Of course, I'd also complain that Ambush and Elder Library were misprinted... .44 Magnum Ambush Barrens, The Boxed In Computer Hacking Dodge Effective Management Elder Library Fake Out Flak Jacket Information Highway IR Goggles Laptop Computer Meat Cleaver Misdirection Sudden Reversal Vulnerability -- - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew

Salem

gpett...@gmail.com wrote: > The Lasombra wrote: >> 5 of the 17 rules cards >> http://dnn.vtes.net/NightsofReckoning/tabid/466/Default.aspx?AlbumID=996-34 >> > > Why are there only 17 Rules cards? Why not 20? > > Right off the top of my head, I can think of 2 cards that would have > had a hugely beneficial impact on the prerelease - Ascendance and Sport > Bike, and they fit the prerequisite tiny text. > > Of course, I'd also complain that Ambush and Elder Library were > misprinted... > > ..44 Magnum > Ambush > Barrens, The > Boxed In > Computer Hacking > Dodge > Effective Management > Elder Library > Fake Out > Flak Jacket > Information Highway > IR Goggles > Laptop Computer > Meat Cleaver > Misdirection > Sudden Reversal > Vulnerability well, from my look through my rules cards, it looks like they were edited for brevity. Magnum's maneuver doesn't mention being optional, for example. But the Elder Library lack of pool is interesting. Is it an updated reprint? Or really a misprint? Ambush seemed fine to me. "(D) Attack a tapped minion, with an optional maneuver." What am I missing? -- salem http://users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/vtes/ (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

gpett...@gmail.com

Salem wrote: > well, from my look through my rules cards, it looks like they were > edited for brevity. Magnum's maneuver doesn't mention being optional, > for example. > > But the Elder Library lack of pool is interesting. Is it an updated > reprint? Or really a misprint? > > Ambush seemed fine to me. "(D) Attack a tapped minion, with an optional > maneuver." > > What am I missing? > On what page in the rulebook is the word "Attack" defined? [ quoted text not captured ]

tzimisce_dragon

You probably know that "Attack" had been used in earlier stages of jyhad, so why don't you say it :) Anyway, we (me and most people in my playgroup) didn't like "attack" been used again, but it is not a big deal. What is a relatively big deal is that we didn't like AT ALL the term "monster"... Please keep VTES mtg free...

gpett...@gmail.com

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, monster is simply a derrogatory term for "non-humans" coming from the "racist" Imbued. It's just a lot simpler than saying "non-mortal minion or retainer". Attack *could* have been made a game term ("Enter combat with"), but it wasn't, and that's where *my* ire resides. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ

gpett...@gmail.com wrote: > Actually, monster is simply a derrogatory term for "non-humans" coming > from the "racist" Imbued. It's just a lot simpler than saying > "non-mortal minion or retainer". And especially simpler than saying "non-mortal, non-animal minion or retainer". > Attack *could* have been made a game term ("Enter combat with"), but it > wasn't, and that's where *my* ire resides. It was edited to fit better the space allotted. The rulebook uses "enter combat with", but it never defines it. It is not a game term/phrase. It's just English. No peculiar in-game definition is needed to override the English sense, because the English sense is what is attempting to be conveyed. Like attack.

Matthew T. Morgan

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm not sure what you mean here. Seems like a great gateway event. No cost. No drawbacks, if you aren't playing Imbued. You might just screw someone else completely. What's not to like? Matt Morgan

talonz

Its a gateway event (ie: requires no gehenna events in play to put in play) and it screws imbued. Both good things imo. G

Fred Scott

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:2006041008...@fnord.io.com... [ quoted text not captured ] The opportunity cost. While NoR is new, you may have a decent chance of catching someone - and you won't screw them "completely". Just give them a distinct disadvantage. (And what if they turn out to be, say, your grand prey? Not so good to be screwing them.) But eventually, unless more cards come out and playing Imbued becomes really popular, it'll just be another niche thing - like people playing Anarchs or Black Hand or something. Hell, people don't use Malkavian Dementia cards and I've been told Malkavians are, like, popular. That's the problem with the card. It's a sideboard card. Fred

gpett...@gmail.com

Fred Scott wrote: > "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message > > I'm not sure what you mean here. Seems like a great gateway event. No cost. No > > drawbacks, if you aren't playing Imbued. You > > might just screw someone else completely. What's not to like? > > The opportunity cost. It's a no-requirement hurts-you-zero Gehenna Event. Opportunity cost 0. It's fantastic. [ quoted text not captured ]

Fred Scott

<gpett...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1144680330....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Fred Scott wrote: >> "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message >> > I'm not sure what you mean here. Seems like a great gateway event. >> > No cost. No drawbacks, if you aren't playing Imbued. You >> > might just screw someone else completely. What's not to like? >> >> The opportunity cost. > > It's a no-requirement hurts-you-zero Gehenna Event. Opportunity cost 0. The opportunity cost is a slot in your deck. And you can't play more than one - others you would have to discard. > It's fantastic. So would you think, say, Gird Minions was fantastic? It hurts you zero. Or is it only Gehenna Events for which such a low standard applies? I didn't really the requirement for using Gehenna Events before other Gehenna Events was so vexing that people would cheer a card that (for instance), just said, "Gehenna Event" - and nothing else. Fred "Gehenna Event - EBAY bidders go insane. Vampires don't care."

Matthew T. Morgan

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Fred Scott wrote: > So would you think, say, Gird Minions was fantastic? It hurts you zero. > Or is it only Gehenna Events for which such a low standard applies? Gird Minions doesn't enable the play of other cards. > I didn't really the requirement for using Gehenna Events before other > Gehenna Events was so vexing that people would cheer a card that (for > instance), just said, "Gehenna Event" - and nothing else. I think a card like that would see some play. Have you ever played a Gehenna-heavy deck? It's tough to find events that have no requirements, don't reduce your hand size and don't potentially hurt you. The no-requirements events are: Anthelios - could potentially help someone else more than you'd like Blood Trade - pretty safe Blood Weakens - doesn't replace right away and can hurt you if you're using disciplines Dragonbound - never replaces and can hurt you Fueled by Heart's Blood - doesn't replace and can let someone else get away with diablerie Nightmares upon Nightmares - doesn't replace right away and might hurt a little, but mostly is a pretty good gateway Restricted Vitae - doesn't replace right away, but is probably still a decent gateway Thirst - good gateway unless you're playing weenies Torpid Blood - doesn't replace right away, otherwise good gateway Unmasking - doesn't replace right away and is probably only advisable in an ally deck Veil of Darkness - never replaces and can hurt you if you're using disciplines Wormwood - doesn't replace right away, probably not a good gateway, but useful if you're going for the effect If the goal of my deck is to, say, make the Camarilla and Sabbat both Fall while Arika becomes the Liason, then yes, I probably do want another no-cost, no-requirements gateway event that doesn't hurt me, even if it will have no other effect on the game. That it might hurt someone else is even better (since Gehenna is all about hurting people). Matt Morgan

tzimisce_dragon

Fred Scott wrote: > > The opportunity cost. While NoR is new, you may have a decent chance of > catching someone - and you won't screw them "completely". Just give them > a distinct disadvantage. (And what if they turn out to be, say, your > grand prey? Not so good to be screwing them.) But eventually, unless > more cards come out and playing Imbued becomes really popular, it'll just > be another niche thing - like people playing Anarchs or Black Hand or > something. Hell, people don't use Malkavian Dementia cards and I've been > told Malkavians are, like, popular. > > That's the problem with the card. It's a sideboard card. > > Fred you are right, but Wormwood, Nightmares upon Nightmares, thirst and some more Gehenna Events LOVE it a lot..... when of course you don't play with imbued...

Robert Scythe

itan...@gmail.com wrote: > >Yeah! Another Gehenna event! :) > > but... it's optional against imbued... in other words... another > optional wallpaper card... Not wallpapered at all. It's another Event that doesn't mess with people too much (especially the person playing it) that can be used for prerequisites for other events (such as Rise of the Nephtali).

Robert Scythe

Robert Scythe wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Should have read the rest of the thread before replying since other people already said this stuff. Yes, a really good gateway.

Greg

[ quoted text not captured ] Given that they're not going to ever be Tournament legal, could LSJ at least confirm that these are the correct 17 Rules Card proxies? [ quoted text not captured ]

pd...@lightlink.com

Fred Scott wrote: > The opportunity cost is a slot in your deck. And you can't play more > than one - others you would have to discard. You seem to be glossing over the need for "starter" Gehenna events in a deck that wants to play other, harder to get in play Gehenna events. If you want to play, like, Fall of the Camarilla or whatever, you are already including a bunch of dubious Gehenna events, just so you can drop them on the table. This one is potentially useful (more so than a lot of other "starter" events), and has zero downside if you have no Imbued in your deck. The end result? A Gehenna Event that is a total no brainer in most Gehenna decks. > So would you think, say, Gird Minions was fantastic? It hurts you zero. > Or is it only Gehenna Events for which such a low standard applies? The standard applies in the context of "I have to put starter Gehenna Events in my deck anyway, so I can play the big and brutal ones that really make my deck go". > I didn't really the requirement for using Gehenna Events before other > Gehenna Events was so vexing that people would cheer a card that (for > instance), just said, "Gehenna Event" - and nothing else. But it doesn't say that. It has a potentially strong effect and no significant downside. Thus, a good, if not fantastic, "starter" Gehenna event. -Peter

The Lasombra

On 10 Apr 2006 16:09:08 -0700, "Greg" <gpett...@gmail.com> wrote: >Given that they're not going to ever be Tournament legal, could LSJ at >least confirm that these are the correct 17 Rules Card proxies? I can confirm that there are only 17 rules cards with different names. http://www.thelasombra.com/inventory.htm Click on the N_of_R tab.

Fred Scott

<pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:1144712842.7...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > Fred Scott wrote: >> The opportunity cost is a slot in your deck. And you can't play more >> than one - others you would have to discard. > > You seem to be glossing over the need for "starter" Gehenna events in a > deck that wants to play other, harder to get in play Gehenna events. Yes, I am. > The standard applies in the context of "I have to put starter Gehenna > Events in my deck anyway, so I can play the big and brutal ones that > really make my deck go". I don't think Break the Code is big-n-brutal. I do not think it is a 'fantastic' card. However, I stand corrected about the need for Gehenna starter events. I guess if you're trying to make Fall of the Camarilla into a viable tournament deck - or at least an interesting deck for non-tournament play - then I can see where it would be useful. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. Fred

Screaming Vermillian

[ quoted text not captured ] And then you get screwed by a magaji. Where's the Fall of the Laibon LSJ?!?

pd...@lightlink.com

Fred Scott wrote: > I don't think Break the Code is big-n-brutal. Me neither--the big-n-brutal ones are the Gehenna Events that, generally, need other Gehenna Events in play to play. Break the Code is a no requirement, immediately playable Event that has no negative effect (assuming you build your deck knowing you are likely to play it), which lets you do things like play Fall of the Camarilla/Sabbat/Whatever. > I do not think it is a 'fantastic' card. It is if you need Events in play. I mean, yeah, unless there is an Imbued deck on the table, it isn't doing anything at all, other than letting you play other Events. But in the long run, it is a much better "starter" Event than most others. > However, I stand corrected about the need for > Gehenna starter events. I guess if you're trying to make Fall of the > Camarilla into a viable tournament deck - or at least an interesting deck > for non-tournament play - then I can see where it would be useful. > Nothing wrong with that, I guess. Yah--like, I don't think super Event decks are wildly viable yet or anything, but Break the Code certainly helps them out. Without wreaking a ton of other havok. -Peter

Kevin M.

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't think "Opportunity cost" means what you think it means. Playing with Break The Code "costs": - a card slot - a discard-phase action - enabling playing of Tapesty Of Blood by your opponents - enabling playing of Not To Be by your opponents - enabling activation of Celeste Lamontagne - enabling activation of Jan Pieterzoon^ - enabling activation of Al-Muntaquim, The Avenger - enabling activation of Cyscek - enabling activation of Theo Bell^ to screw one of your current table allies - enabling activation of Mukhtar Bey to screw one of your current table allies - enabling activation of Antara to screw one of your current table allies ...as well as all the possible beneficial effects it may have for you. But I'm sure you knew all that already. :) Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

Kevin M.

Greg <gpett...@gmail.com> wrote: > Given that they're not going to ever be Tournament > legal, could LSJ at least confirm that these are the > correct 17 Rules Card proxies? Greg, did you read the post where LSJ said he was going to put up a poll on the WW website asking players how they felt about using the cards in constructed decks? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6dfc3e1223215795 Doesn't this sound to you like a possible avenue to legalization? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe

In message <bAW_f.279$Jk2.5@fed1read03>, Kevin M. <you...@imaspammer.org> writes: >Greg, did you read the post where LSJ said he was going to put up a poll >on the WW website asking players how they felt about using the cards in >constructed decks? Greg posted at Date: 10 Apr 2006 16:09:08 -0700 and LSJ posted at Date: 11 Apr 2006 09:54:09 -0700 so it's pretty likely Greg hadn't seen that when he posted, unless he's developed Temporis. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Kevin M.

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Kevin M. writes: >>Greg, did you read the post where LSJ said he was going to put up a >>poll on the WW website asking players how they felt about using the >>cards in constructed decks? > > Greg posted at Date: 10 Apr 2006 16:09:08 -0700 and LSJ posted at > Date: 11 Apr 2006 09:54:09 -0700 so it's pretty likely Greg hadn't > seen that when he posted, unless he's developed Temporis. I stand corrected. <sigh> [ quoted text not captured ]

Greg

James Coupe wrote: > In message <bAW_f.279$Jk2.5@fed1read03>, Kevin M. > <you...@imaspammer.org> writes: > >Greg, did you read the post where LSJ said he was going to put up a poll > >on the WW website asking players how they felt about using the cards in > >constructed decks? > > Greg posted at Date: 10 Apr 2006 16:09:08 -0700 and LSJ posted at Date: > 11 Apr 2006 09:54:09 -0700 so it's pretty likely Greg hadn't seen that > when he posted, unless he's developed Temporis. > Correct. I control the Weather, not Time and Space. Besides, if they *might* become legal, it's even *more* imperative that we get an official list. I mean, *I* posted a list of 17, The Lasombra has a list of 17, I've seen at least one other person say it was 17, what's wrong with confirmation? [ quoted text not captured ]

Greg

Kevin M. wrote: > gpett...@gmail.com wrote: > > It's a no-requirement hurts-you-zero Gehenna Event. > > Opportunity cost 0. It's fantastic. > > I don't think "Opportunity cost" means what you think it means. > > Playing with Break The Code "costs": > > - a card slot > - a discard-phase action > - enabling playing of Tapesty Of Blood by your opponents > - enabling playing of Not To Be by your opponents > - enabling activation of Celeste Lamontagne > - enabling activation of Jan Pieterzoon^ > - enabling activation of Al-Muntaquim, The Avenger > - enabling activation of Cyscek > - enabling activation of Theo Bell^ to screw one of your current table > allies > - enabling activation of Mukhtar Bey to screw one of your current table > allies > - enabling activation of Antara to screw one of your current table allies > > ...as well as all the possible beneficial effects it may have for you. > > But I'm sure you knew all that already. :) Correct. Given their frequency, the magnitude of most of those effects can be approximated with '0'. Usually only "a discard phase action" and "enabling Vampires to stealth past/rush Imbued" would be considered significant "opportunity costs" where I come from. You also forgot the most important effects it has, "enabling the playing of Gehenna Events with Requirements" and "empowering Gehenna events like Wormwood and Nightmares Upon Nightmares". [ quoted text not captured ]