Thinking of how many cards now a days have multiple uses I was kicking
around the concept of equipment playable as a master card. Something
like this:
Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
ready minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as such.
The last line just makes it 'sudden-able', as it should be, in some
sort of internal logical way... I think this card fits nicely into a
set devoted to showing how Methuselah are more desperate and getting
more involved in the Jyhad. Though it is perhaps too close to being
over the power level of .44 magnum.
Thoughts on the idea, or even power level? Comments? Any replies at
all?!?
~SV
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
> round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
> cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
> ready minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as such.
>
> The last line just makes it 'sudden-able', as it should be, in some
> sort of internal logical way...
So why not make it master card that is treated as equipment in play?
This way it wouldn't be too powerful, cause it takes master slot.
[ quoted text not captured ]
If you're willing to take just the unblockability, you could have it
tap the
recipient and be a trifle.
Making it just a master would help the card, IMO, although it violates
your initial goal.
e.g.,
Prevalent Gun
Master
2 pool
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a ready untapped minion you control and tap that
minion. This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a
master card while in play. This equipment is a weapon, gun. It does 2R
damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat.
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Thinking of how many cards now a days have multiple uses I was kicking
> around the concept of equipment playable as a master card. Something
> like this:
>
> Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
> round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
> cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
> ready minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as such.
>
I think the question is, are these guns really more prevalent than .44
Magnums? I mean, .44's are everywhere. At least, everywhere there's
celerity these days. I think it should be called "Somewhat Prevalent
Gun, but not as much so as .44 Magnums". ;)
[ quoted text not captured ]
What's a master slot? :)
The whole master/sudden-able thing doesn't really need to be
included... over complications I suppose.
LSJ wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > Thinking of how many cards now a days have multiple uses I was kicking
> > around the concept of equipment playable as a master card. Something
> > like this:
> >
> > Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
> > round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
> > cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
> > ready minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as such.
> >
> > The last line just makes it 'sudden-able', as it should be, in some
> > sort of internal logical way... I think this card fits nicely into a
> > set devoted to showing how Methuselah are more desperate and getting
> > more involved in the Jyhad. Though it is perhaps too close to being
> > over the power level of .44 magnum.
> >
> > Thoughts on the idea, or even power level? Comments? Any replies at
> > all?!?
>
> If you're willing to take just the unblockability, you could have it
> tap the
> recipient and be a trifle.
Almost synonomous with action. Close enough I suppose.
> Making it just a master would help the card, IMO, although it violates
> your initial goal.
That being of having a card with multiple uses (though, thinking about
it, who would really waste a minion action getting this card any how?
Who wastes minion actions getting weapons now a days also?), sure. But
then its not disguise/conceal/baltimore pierable! ...
> Prevalent Gun
> Master
> 2 pool
> Master: trifle.
> Put this card on a ready untapped minion you control and tap that
> minion. This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a
> master card while in play. This equipment is a weapon, gun. It does 2R
> damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat.
Power levels not-with-standing.
Also kicking this around:
Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
ready TRAIT minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as
such.
Now it might be played normally equip-style...
Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
~SV
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
> > If you're willing to take just the unblockability, you could have it
> > tap the
> > recipient and be a trifle.
>
> Almost synonomous with action. Close enough I suppose.
>
> > Making it just a master would help the card, IMO, although it violates
> > your initial goal.
>
> That being of having a card with multiple uses (though, thinking about
> it, who would really waste a minion action getting this card any how?
> Who wastes minion actions getting weapons now a days also?), sure. But
> then its not disguise/conceal/baltimore pierable! ...
That probably makes it fine for both draft and regular games. It's
useful in at least some regular decks because it doesn't require the
extra card slot for concealed weapon, but also not as nice because it
taps your minion. Meanwhile, an unblockable good weapon in draft is
smokin' hot.
Also has corner-case synergy with path of evil revelations, etc.
> > Prevalent Gun
> > Master
> > 2 pool
> > Master: trifle.
> > Put this card on a ready untapped minion you control and tap that
> > minion. This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a
> > master card while in play. This equipment is a weapon, gun. It does 2R
> > damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat.
>
> Power levels not-with-standing.
>
> Also kicking this around:
>
> Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
> round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
> cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
> ready TRAIT minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as
> such.
Not bad either, though might deserve a name change if it's more
prevalent among vampires of a certain TRAIT. My guess is that guns
which can only strike once per round are going to be significantly less
popular in constructed, though.
John
jnewqu...@difsol.com wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > LSJ wrote:> > > Making it just a master would help the card, IMO, although it violates
> > > your initial goal.
> >
> > That being of having a card with multiple uses (though, thinking about
> > it, who would really waste a minion action getting this card any how?
> > Who wastes minion actions getting weapons now a days also?), sure. But
> > then its not disguise/conceal/baltimore pierable! ...
>
> That probably makes it fine for both draft and regular games. It's
> useful in at least some regular decks because it doesn't require the
> extra card slot for concealed weapon, but also not as nice because it
> taps your minion. Meanwhile, an unblockable good weapon in draft is
> smokin' hot.
Even an unblockable decent weapon (strike once per round, I mean,
really... how many additional strikes are going to be around?) is
smokin' hot in draft.
BTW, if its good for both draft and constructed... OMG. Is that
possible?!?
> Also has corner-case synergy with path of evil revelations, etc.
>
> > > Prevalent Gun
> > > Master
> > > 2 pool
> > > Master: trifle.
> > > Put this card on a ready untapped minion you control and tap that
> > > minion. This card represents an equipment card and doesn't count as a
> > > master card while in play. This equipment is a weapon, gun. It does 2R
> > > damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat.
> >
> > Power levels not-with-standing.
> >
> > Also kicking this around:
> >
> > Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
> > round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
> > cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
> > ready TRAIT minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as
> > such.
>
> Not bad either, though might deserve a name change if it's more
> prevalent among vampires of a certain TRAIT. My guess is that guns
> which can only strike once per round are going to be significantly less
> popular in constructed, though.
My original card was once per round also, but LSJ thought master and
trifling it deserved an unlimited use, or just mistyped/misread the
oringal (no big deal). You've got to have SOMEthing to compensate for
its master-speed acquirability to set it apart from 44 magnum (though
if it were just a master card, its arguable that it doesn't need teh
restriction). Your thoughts?
And yes, the name is just there as a place holder. I was also kicking
around Gun In a Box, Mysterious Strangers Piece, Master's Arsenal...
~SV
[ quoted text not captured ]
Name is there as place holder. Names for prevalent guns easy to acquire
on the street would be appreciated. Though your witty bantor is just as
respected.
~SV
"Screaming Vermillian" <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139441004....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Unfortunately, it's hard to suggest a really appropriate name because
whoever was naming the gun cards in the first place didn't really do a
wonderful job, IMHO. It appears that your "prevalent gun" is functionally
a lot like a .44 Magnum gun but can't be used multiple times a round,
which seems to signify that it would be a slower gun than a .44 Magnum but
had approximately the same stopping power shot-for-shot.
Popular handguns nowadays probably would have suggested something like
a Glock 21 or 22 or some .40 or .45 caliber 1911 model (e.g. Paraordnance)
in the role now served in this game by .44 Magnum. One would expect a
semi-automatic of a size that's not really concealable but considered to
be of optimal stopping power for a holstered handgun. The Magnum .44
is a revolver, hence is not really a high-speed weapon as handguns go.
It does make a pretty respectable hole in a human body, I'm told. Old
movie aficionados will remember it as the "Dirty Harry" weapon.
(Clint Eastwood made several of these.) That's probably how it came to
be noticed by Richard Garfield or whoever designed/named the original
Jyhad card.
I'm not really sure what handgun qualifies as "just as powerful as a
.44 Magnum but slower". I guess something like a single action
western-style (cowboy) revolver of approximately the same size
cartridge would qualify but I don't know enough about such weapons
to suggest one. Maybe someone around here does.
Fred
[ quoted text not captured ]
Right. Not a big gun fanatic myself. I just call them things like "The
Punisher" and "Hole Puncher" in my fan files. :) Guns are interesting
though... but trying to find just the right gun for the right job...
I've heard Desert Eagle is a bad name to gun comparitive, too.
~SV
"Screaming Vermillian" <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139446786.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Fred Scott wrote:>> I'm not really sure what handgun qualifies as "just as powerful as a
>> .44 Magnum but slower". I guess something like a single action
>> western-style (cowboy) revolver of approximately the same size
>> cartridge would qualify but I don't know enough about such weapons
>> to suggest one. Maybe someone around here does.>
> Right. Not a big gun fanatic myself. I just call them things like "The
> Punisher" and "Hole Puncher" in my fan files. :) Guns are interesting
> though... but trying to find just the right gun for the right job...
>
> I've heard Desert Eagle is a bad name to gun comparitive, too.
The last sentence is garbled so I don't know what you were trying to
say. But if you're wondering, a Desert Eagle is a semi-automatic that
comes chambered in .44 Magnum and .50 AE (don't quite know what that
is but I'm guessing it's a larger bullet speced by the company that
makes the gun, Magnum Research). The Jyhad card is a cheaper
.44 Magnum but without the free-maneuver-per-combat ability.
I suppose you can justify the abstraction by assuming the Desert
Eagle is an even larger handgun than a .44 Magnum. ("Dirtier
Harry", heh!)
Fred
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > >
> > > Prevalent Gun. Equipment. 2 Pool. Weapon, Gun. Strike: 2R once each
> > > round, with an optional maneuver each combat. You may pay this cards
> > > cost and use a master phase action to place this card on one of your
> > > ready minions. Treat this card as a master card when played as such.
> > >
> > I think the question is, are these guns really more prevalent than .44
> > Magnums? I mean, .44's are everywhere. At least, everywhere there's
> > celerity these days. I think it should be called "Somewhat Prevalent
> > Gun, but not as much so as .44 Magnums". ;)
>
> Name is there as place holder. Names for prevalent guns easy to acquire
> on the street would be appreciated. Though your witty bantor is just as
> respected.
>
I would think something like a single-shot pistol that you see pirates
wielding in movies. Don't know what that's called, though.
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> jnewqu...@difsol.com wrote:
> > Not bad either, though might deserve a name change if it's more
> > prevalent among vampires of a certain TRAIT. My guess is that guns
> > which can only strike once per round are going to be significantly less
> > popular in constructed, though.
>
> My original card was once per round also, but LSJ thought master and
> trifling it deserved an unlimited use, or just mistyped/misread the
> oringal (no big deal). You've got to have SOMEthing to compensate for
> its master-speed acquirability to set it apart from 44 magnum (though
> if it were just a master card, its arguable that it doesn't need teh
> restriction). Your thoughts?
If it's a trifle, you can only get one per turn. You can't play one
after cycling into it later in your turn. You can't take advantage of
Black Cat's special, or similar. You can't fetch it with Vast Wealth,
or Magic of the Smith. You can't grab it with Pier 13. If you don't
have it in your hand at the beginning of your turn, you have to wait at
least until next turn to get your gun.
Since the trifle taps the minion you play it on, you also can't get
into combat the same turn you equip it (like you would with
concealed/disguised), so it slows down your actions as well.
Seems fairly well balanced against a regular .44 in constructed. In
draft, it'd be somewhat slightly better than the magnum, but not so
much that I think it'd be a problem.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Chris Berger wrote:
> I would think something like a single-shot pistol that you see pirates
> wielding in movies. Don't know what that's called, though.
Blunderbuss
[ quoted text not captured ]
Or "Flintlock pistol", since 'Blunderbuss' is a subset/type of
flintlock denoting the flared barrel and scattershot ammo (think
'predecessor to shotgun') that also includes a whole bunch of
longer-than-pistol muskets. Some pirate-style pistols are
Blunderbusses, some are just standard-barrel flintlocks.
-John Flournoy
-you'd think I did web research for a living
Fred Scott wrote:
> "Screaming Vermillian" <alexand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1139446786.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Fred Scott wrote:
> >> I'm not really sure what handgun qualifies as "just as powerful as a
> >> .44 Magnum but slower". I guess something like a single action
> >> western-style (cowboy) revolver of approximately the same size
> >> cartridge would qualify but I don't know enough about such weapons
> >> to suggest one. Maybe someone around here does.
> >
> > Right. Not a big gun fanatic myself. I just call them things like "The
> > Punisher" and "Hole Puncher" in my fan files. :) Guns are interesting
> > though... but trying to find just the right gun for the right job...
> >
> > I've heard Desert Eagle is a bad name to gun comparitive, too.
>
> The last sentence is garbled so I don't know what you were trying to
> say.
Uh... as far as comparing somethings name to the things function (in
game), it is bad. Make sense?
> But if you're wondering, a Desert Eagle is a semi-automatic that
> comes chambered in .44 Magnum and .50 AE (don't quite know what that
> is but I'm guessing it's a larger bullet speced by the company that
> makes the gun, Magnum Research). The Jyhad card is a cheaper
> .44 Magnum but without the free-maneuver-per-combat ability.
> I suppose you can justify the abstraction by assuming the Desert
> Eagle is an even larger handgun than a .44 Magnum. ("Dirtier
> Harry", heh!)
Well... doesn't seem that far off, from how you described it. But I
know nothing of these things, so what you say (that it seems to work
ok) and what others say (man, Desert Eagle's a more powerful than
THAT!) is pretty much all the same to me. :)
~SV
>
> Fred
jnew...@difsol.com wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> > jnewqu...@difsol.com wrote:
> > > Not bad either, though might deserve a name change if it's more
> > > prevalent among vampires of a certain TRAIT. My guess is that guns
> > > which can only strike once per round are going to be significantly less
> > > popular in constructed, though.
> >
> > My original card was once per round also, but LSJ thought master and
> > trifling it deserved an unlimited use, or just mistyped/misread the
> > oringal (no big deal). You've got to have SOMEthing to compensate for
> > its master-speed acquirability to set it apart from 44 magnum (though
> > if it were just a master card, its arguable that it doesn't need teh
> > restriction). Your thoughts?
>
> If it's a trifle, you can only get one per turn. You can't play one
> after cycling into it later in your turn. You can't take advantage of
> Black Cat's special, or similar. You can't fetch it with Vast Wealth,
> or Magic of the Smith. You can't grab it with Pier 13. If you don't
> have it in your hand at the beginning of your turn, you have to wait at
> least until next turn to get your gun.
>
> Since the trifle taps the minion you play it on, you also can't get
> into combat the same turn you equip it (like you would with
> concealed/disguised), so it slows down your actions as well.
(the above things did cross my mind, but didn't seem to be enough...)
> Seems fairly well balanced against a regular .44 in constructed. In
> draft, it'd be somewhat slightly better than the magnum, but not so
> much that I think it'd be a problem.
But you think it is enough, so... sure. Why not?
Can you think if one would be better than the other as far as a draft
friendly expansion would be concerned (I'm thinking it would depend on
what the other cards in the set do...)? (talking about the differences
between printing an equipment card WITH the master acquirable option
VS. just printing a master card equipment, if the former would need
some other restriction on it for balancing, etc...)
Thanks for your thoughts on power (constructed vs. limited), above.
~SV
John Flournoy wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
> > Chris Berger wrote:
> > > I would think something like a single-shot pistol that you see pirates
> > > wielding in movies. Don't know what that's called, though.
> >
> > Blunderbuss
>
> Or "Flintlock pistol", since 'Blunderbuss' is a subset/type of
> flintlock denoting the flared barrel and scattershot ammo (think
> 'predecessor to shotgun') that also includes a whole bunch of
> longer-than-pistol muskets. Some pirate-style pistols are
> Blunderbusses, some are just standard-barrel flintlocks.
>
Yeah, Flintlock Pistol, without the flared-barrel. That's what I was
thinking of.
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> jnew...@difsol.com wrote:
> Can you think if one would be better than the other as far as a draft
> friendly expansion would be concerned (I'm thinking it would depend on
> what the other cards in the set do...)? (talking about the differences
> between printing an equipment card WITH the master acquirable option
> VS. just printing a master card equipment, if the former would need
> some other restriction on it for balancing, etc...)
In draft, I imagine your original card would be better than the trifle
version, since it doesn't tap the minion you play it on (unless you
choose to equip it the normal way) and there's probably going to be
less need for the trifle aspect or the additional strike aspect. It'll
be more irritating for draft players who *did* get a lot of masters or
extra strikes though, and less of the fun "hey, look at this crazy
combo I pulled off in draft!".
John
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yarr.
Also, would kind of fit in with the theme of the kind of gun ancient
methuselahs are likely to have lying around and that they'd hand out to
their pet minions.
Rather than, you know, handing them a bunch of cash and saying 'go buy
yourself a gun', ala an equip action.
--
salem
http://users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/vtes/
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
"Salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43ebe3f2$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Of course, the down side is that, well, Flintlocks and Blunderbusses
don't work very well. That's why people stopped using them 200 years
ago or so (or whenever the hell it was) as better stuff was invented.
I think the effective difference between a .44 and a Blunderbuss is a
tad more encompassing than just the time to reload.
Fred
thinking, "Yarr, indeed..."
[ quoted text not captured ]
maybe it's an enchanted flintlock pistol imbued with the blood of an
antedeluvian that rose up from it's hiding place at the bottom of the
ocean to devour a galleon full of pirates to sake it's immortal hunger,
but the pirate captain somehow got lucky in all the bloodshed and
managed to ram the barrel of the gun through the wound in the
antedeluvian's chest (left there from fighting an ancient
were-whaleshark the night before), and the wooden stock of the gun
paralysed the antedeluvian, who fell overboard and sank to the ocean
floor, until a wandering giant squid accidentally dislodged the gun
years later, and it washed up on shore along with the dessicated husk of
the giant squid, whereupon the methuselah, you, found it, and realised
the potency in the blood soaked into the wood, and gave it over to your
trusty minion to slay the minions of your rival methuselahs.
didn't think of _that_, did you?
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
No, he didn't because everyone knows that for that to happen you have
to have a chunk of Kryptonite powering your spaceship so you can move
faster than the explosion from the nuclear weapon that the Technocracy
would drop on you as soon as they discovered the existance of said
enchanted flintlock pistol with their bleepdoom-a-froggie detector
device.
Damn those technocrats!
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
"Salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43ec...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sound reasonable. But then, shouldn't it be unique?
Fred
(wondering how often that kind of thing went on?)
Salem wrote:
> Also, would kind of fit in with the theme of the kind of gun ancient
> methuselahs are likely to have lying around and that they'd hand out to
> their pet minions.
And here is the point why i hate this thread. Obviously the author
doesnt try to explore the WOD, wants to get a interesting theme or
develope some background. He is trying to cross some card types. Why
not an event or an reaction card that is an equipment? I am so happy
that we still have only expansion that have a theme (and are not
created to only present a new game mechanism).
[ quoted text not captured ]
The theme of the set I'm 'designing' is titled Methuselah Cult, or
Elder Worship.
In which certain groups of kindred start swearing blatant allegiance to
methuselah, ie. the players, and worship them as a sort of kindred god.
The set focuses on four iconic methuselah, which, not having much
WoD1.0 material, I've just made up (tm). Minions have the keyword
"(Name) Sworn" and then there are a few cards based off of that. A few
cards interact with Sworn vs. Non-Sworn, or make you Sworn (you choose
a name and then become Sworn to them. So yes, you could have a group of
Vampires Sworn to x5mofr), a few cards are better if used by Sworn, and
another 'cycle' of discipline requiring cards that are playable at one
level higher of the discipline in question for Minions Sworn to various
names (like say "Card. Combat. Name Sworn can play this card as if they
have one level of [pot] higher than they do. pot: Strike Strength +1
damage. POT: As above, but with an optional press.")
The 'set' also has two sub themes. One is that methuselah are becoming
more direct in the Jyhad (so cards that represent this, like, gifts
from Methuselah, ala, my equipment card in question, or direct conflict
of methuselah's influence, in form of events). The other smaller theme
is that of Loyalty and Allegiance. Things trigger off of controlling
minions, or controlling someone elses minion, or being better if you
control someone elses minion. Not sure on this last theme.
Finally, in the back of my mind, I've always hoped for a more
draft/limited environment friendly VTES, so I 'design' cards with that
in mind. "equipment: prevent all gun damage" is poop to me compared to
"equipment: prevent one damage. Tap to prevent all gun damage", which
has more utility than the former.
Sorry to challenge your accusations of myself. At one point, I didn't
care about theme, but now I realize how important theme is in designing
sets (duh!). At one time I was just mechanically interested in the
game. Now I'm exploring vampires in general, though not specifically
WoD1.0 vampire realm (blame it on a late start and a lack of WoD1.0
material with which to work, or whatever).
I hope now, though, you understand my point of view.
~SV
Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> The theme of the set I'm 'designing' is titled Methuselah Cult, or
> Elder Worship.
That it is all sarcasm means that i dont find your background very
inspiring.
I like cards that are designed to reflect the ability of the card. That
a "Kerrie" is tapped after strike is not because LSJ thought, hey, we
need one-use weapons. A Kerrie is thrown and can only be picked after
combat.
I still believe, cards need a background to support the atmosphere of
the game.
> Finally, in the back of my mind, I've always hoped for a more
> draft/limited environment friendly VTES, so I 'design' cards with that
> in mind.
I totally support that idea. But we dont need special cards for that,
we need a new base set with a good card selection. Changing the draft
tournament rules that you can use cards from starters would also be
good.
Frank