Our group just can't seem to agree on these things, so please settle our
arguments!
Suppose Rufina Soledad and Smudge get in a fight: close range, no
special strikes or modifiers. Each vampire takes 1 damage, but Rufina
prevents her damage using Skin of Rock. Can she then play Pulled Fangs,
as Smudge's inflicted damage was prevented?
Zip gun says it deals 1 damage to the bearer when used. Does this
happen as soon as it is used? For instance, if Nik uses it to maneuver
to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
Suppose Cardano and Zoe are fighting at close range, and both are at
full capacity. Zoe strikes with 1 hand, Cardano strikes with a superior
Theft of Vitae. This resolves, and combat ends. How much blood does
Cardano now have - i.e. do you burn blood for wounds after burning
excess stollen blood or not?
As far as Theft of Vitae and similar cards are concerned, a retainer or
ally's life points are equivalent to blood, right?
Finally, a non-rules question: On the spoiler list for Jyhad, what do
the rarity numbers mean? for instance, some cards are "Rare 4" and some
are "Rare 1." I thought this was the number of instances of that card
on the rares sheet, but some cards have arity "Rare 1,2" or some such.
What's it all mean?
thanks!
-davey!
In article <35E7B4...@midway.uchicago.edu>, davey! hathorn
<dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes
>Our group just can't seem to agree on these things, so please settle our
>arguments!
>
>Suppose Rufina Soledad and Smudge get in a fight: close range, no
>special strikes or modifiers. Each vampire takes 1 damage, but Rufina
>prevents her damage using Skin of Rock. Can she then play Pulled Fangs,
>as Smudge's inflicted damage was prevented?
>
Yes. Note that Pulled Fangs does non-aggravated damage now.
>Zip gun says it deals 1 damage to the bearer when used. Does this
>happen as soon as it is used? For instance, if Nik uses it to maneuver
>to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
>declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
>he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
>torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
The 1 damage is done during Strike Resolution, I believe.
>
>Suppose Cardano and Zoe are fighting at close range, and both are at
>full capacity. Zoe strikes with 1 hand, Cardano strikes with a superior
>Theft of Vitae. This resolves, and combat ends. How much blood does
>Cardano now have - i.e. do you burn blood for wounds after burning
>excess stollen blood or not?
Cardano - 9 blood
Zoe - 3 blood
combat begins
Zoe pops for 1 hand damage
Cardano does 2 stolen
Strikes resolve: 1 hand damage is dealt but not burned for yet
2 blood is stolen NOW and excess runs off
Damage Prevention: None
Damage Resolves: 1 hand damage is now actually burned by Cardano
So Zoe is on 1 and Cardano on 8
>
>As far as Theft of Vitae and similar cards are concerned, a retainer or
>ally's life points are equivalent to blood, right?
>
Correct.
>Finally, a non-rules question: On the spoiler list for Jyhad, what do
>the rarity numbers mean? for instance, some cards are "Rare 4" and some
>are "Rare 1." I thought this was the number of instances of that card
>on the rares sheet,
Yes.
>but some cards have arity "Rare 1,2" or some such.
>What's it all mean?
>
I believe it means 1 on one rare sheet and 2 on the other rare sheet -
implying that there were two slightly different rare sheets. It gives
three of them over 2 rare sheets, though, instead of the 2 of a Rare 1.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia) Change nospam to obeah to reply
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net
In article <8r716y1d5pbk-p...@Dialup-925.HIP.CAM.ORG>,
Frederic Genest <gen...@iname.com> writes
>I gather from this that you can heal damage occuring simultaneously with
>the steal blood effect (i.e. in the same strike resolution phase): burn 1
>point for damage, gain one point for steal effect. Thus, Cardano would be
>at full capacity, and would have stolen 2 from Zoe.
No, you don't
That is the old Jyhad way of doing it.
The point about being able to use it immediately is because you have it
before you burn for strikes.
If I had a 6 capacity vampire on 0 blood and you did 1 damage to me and
I stole 2 blood from you, I'd take 2 blood, none would drain off and I'd
burn 1 for the damage.
That's the order it goes:
Resolve strikes but DON'T deal damage
Let excess blood from steals burn NOW
Prevent damage
Burn blood for damage
Lupus' numbers ARE correct.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
> Yes. Note that Pulled Fangs does non-aggravated damage now.
Our group hasn't switched to 7/7 yet. We're still hammering out all
these basic rules questions.
> >Zip gun says it deals 1 damage to the bearer when used. Does this
> >happen as soon as it is used? For instance, if Nik uses it to maneuver
> >to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
> >declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
> >he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
> >torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
>
> The 1 damage is done during Strike Resolution, I believe.
Well, that might be how it's played in your group, but it doesn't seem
implicit from the [Jyhad] card text: "Does one damage when used," which
is why my group can't agree on it :/ Is there some other card which
gives a precedent?
-davey!
In article <35E83D...@midway.uchicago.edu>, davey! hathorn
<dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes
>> >Zip gun says it deals 1 damage to the bearer when used. Does this
>> >happen as soon as it is used? For instance, if Nik uses it to maneuver
>> >to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
>> >declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
>> >he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
>> >torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
>>
>> The 1 damage is done during Strike Resolution, I believe.>
>Well, that might be how it's played in your group, but it doesn't seem
>implicit from the [Jyhad] card text: "Does one damage when used," which
>is why my group can't agree on it :/ Is there some other card which
>gives a precedent?
That's how it's played in any group using the official errata,
clarifications and rulings.
You might care to look at:
http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi
From LSJ's last set of rulings (pre the changes recently) I find:
Zip Gun - Combat
* Damage done to the bearer is applied during strike
resolution. [TOM 950919]
* Only deal damage to bearer if bearer uses it during
combat. [LSJ 971215]
BTW, if I had meant "That's how it's played in my group" I would have
said so. I didn't. When I answer a question, I will say if I'm not
sure and let LSJ decide. But I was using the established errata,
rulings and clarifications - as I do when replying to questions of this
nature. I may be wrong, but if I'm talking about how *I* (rather than
my interpretation of the rules and rulings of all natures) play
something, I will say so.
As you say, there is no guide on card text as to when it should be
applied being as "when it is used" is ambiguous. Thus there are the
rulings, errata and clarifications to settle this. You might like to
take a copy from the site. It settles many basic ambiguities. Not
necessarily how you want them settled, but it gives a standard base-line
for all cards to work from and saves many arguments in the long run.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:29:18 +0100, James Coupe
<ve...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <35E83D...@midway.uchicago.edu>, davey! hathorn
><dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes>>> >Zip gun says it deals 1 damage to the bearer when used. Does this
>>> >happen as soon as it is used? For instance, if Nik uses it to maneuver
>>> >to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
>>> >declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
>>> >he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
>>> >torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
>>>
>>> The 1 damage is done during Strike Resolution, I believe.>>
>>Well, that might be how it's played in your group, but it doesn't seem
>>implicit from the [Jyhad] card text: "Does one damage when used," which
>>is why my group can't agree on it :/ Is there some other card which
>>gives a precedent?>>From LSJ's last set of rulings (pre the changes recently) I find:
>
>Zip Gun - Combat
>
> * Damage done to the bearer is applied during strike
> resolution. [TOM 950919]
> * Only deal damage to bearer if bearer uses it during
> combat. [LSJ 971215]
>
The rulebook states:
Dodge: A "dodge" deals no damage, but it prevents the effect of the
opponent's strike that round, even if the opponent's strike was
delivered with First Strike.
Is the zip gun considered to be "used" if the opposing minion dodges?
Thanks,
Dave
On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, davey! hathorn wrote:
> > >to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
> > >declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
> > >he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
> > >torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
> >
> > The 1 damage is done during Strike Resolution, I believe.
>
> Well, that might be how it's played in your group, but it doesn't seem
> implicit from the [Jyhad] card text: "Does one damage when used," which
> is why my group can't agree on it :/ Is there some other card which
> gives a precedent?
No, it is not apparent from card text. But there is a ruling. Check out
the "Rulings" listing, at the end, under "Zip Gun".
Zip Gun - Combat
* Damage done to the bearer is applied during strike resolution.
[TOM 950919]
Lupus Australis
____ ____
\ \----/ /
|()__()|
__\ __ /__
/ __\()/__ \
|/ \==/ \|
| || |
On 29 Aug 1998, Frederic Genest wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:15:51, Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, davey! hathorn wrote:
> >> > > Suppose Cardano and Zoe are fighting at close range, and both are at
> > > full capacity. Zoe strikes with 1 hand, Cardano strikes with a superior
> > > Theft of Vitae. This resolves, and combat ends. How much blood does
> > > Cardano now have - i.e. do you burn blood for wounds after burning
> > > excess stollen blood or not?
> >> > The excess blood drains off before you can use it to heal. Cardano will
> > be at one less than full capacity after he heals.
> >
> > Both strikes are resolved simultaneously. Therefore, Cardano receives two
> > blood and takes one damage at the same time.
> >
> > However, the "heal damage" phase (in which Cardano burns one blood to heal
> > the damage) occurs immediately afterwards. Therefore, the excess blood
> > will drain off before Cardano can use it for this.
>
> I think this is not true. The VtES rulebook (online) says that stolen
> blood can be immediately used to heal damage:
The V:tES rulebook is correct, except that the word "immediately" must be
slightly qualified. He can use the blood "immediately" in the sense that
the stolen blood can heal damage simultaneously done to him during the
same strike resolution. Technically, he must, as always, wait until
the "heal damage" phase to heal any damage.
Stolen blood in excess of capacity also will drain off "immediately". The
drain off is slightly more immediate than the opportunity to use it to
heal, which, technically, comes two phases later.
Timing is as follow.
Strike phase: First acting minion, then blocking minion, declare strikes
Strike resolution phase: Both strikes resolve simultaneously. Damage is
dealt, but one does not burn blood to heal it yet. Stolen blood,
however, is immediately lost by the victem, and gained by the
perpetrator. If the perpetrator now has blood in excess of
capacity, it drains off immediately.
Damage Prevention Phase: During this phase, both minions have an
opportunity to cancel or Prevent damage done during previous
phase. One may note that not only is stolen blood "immediately"
available to heal damage (assuming it did not drain off), but it
is "immediately" available to prevent damage as well. Thus, if I
started the round with no blood, I stole two with Theft of Vitae,
I can now use one for a Skin of Steel.
Heal Damage Phase: In this phase I burn blood to heal any damage that was
not prevented. If I still have unhealed damage at the end of this
phase, I enter torpor.
Stolen blood is "immediately" available to heal damage, only in
the sense that it becomes available to me before I am forced to
either heal the damage and enter torpor. Thus, if I am empty, and
get struck for 2 damage, any blood I steal is "immediately"
available to heal that damage, because I recieve the blood before
I have to heal the damage. I cannot, however, receive more blood
than my capacity.
> VtES Rulebook, section 8.3
>
> "The stolen blood will also heal the vampire immediately. This blood can be
> burned by damage that is not dealt with First Strike.">
> I gather from this that you can heal damage occuring simultaneously with
> the steal blood effect (i.e. in the same strike resolution phase): burn 1
> point for damage, gain one point for steal effect. Thus, Cardano would be
> at full capacity, and would have stolen 2 from Zoe.
>> Frederic.[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
>
> That's the order it goes:
>
> Resolve strikes but DON'T deal damage
> Let excess blood from steals burn NOW
> Prevent damage
> Burn blood for damage
This seems faqqable (is that a word?). I'll include it next time I
update the FAQ.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
Official Jyhad/V:tES FAQ Maintainer
http://www.math.wisc.edu/~hamblin/faq.html
"We _do_ kill people... that's sort of our raison d'etre" -- Spike
In article <35e893d6...@news1.sympatico.ca>, Bindusara
<ste...@sympatico.ca> writes
>Dodge: A "dodge" deals no damage, but it prevents the effect of the
>opponent's strike that round, even if the opponent's strike was
>delivered with First Strike.
>Is the zip gun considered to be "used" if the opposing minion dodges?
A dodge prevents the effects of a minion's strike to the dodging minion
(the rulesbook is lazy - you might like to get a copy of the The
complete rules reference some time, try LSJ's site, or have a looksy in
DejaNews for it.... I'll try and dig it out some time for you).
Damage still occurs from the Zip Gun even if you dodge.
That makes sense, anyway. You leap out of the way of the bullet, but
the gun has still backfired in my face (or however it deals its damage
to me).
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <35E8DEA9...@math.wisc.edu>, James Hamblin
<ham...@math.wisc.edu> writes
>This seems faqqable (is that a word?). I'll include it next time I
>update the FAQ.
The theory, yes, but if you want it, get someone to re-write it into a
sensible state.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
>
> In article <35E7B4...@midway.uchicago.edu>, davey! hathorn
> <dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes> >Our group just can't seem to agree on these things, so please settle our
> >arguments!
> >
> >Suppose Rufina Soledad and Smudge get in a fight: close range, no
> >special strikes or modifiers. Each vampire takes 1 damage, but Rufina
> >prevents her damage using Skin of Rock. Can she then play Pulled Fangs,
> >as Smudge's inflicted damage was prevented?
>> Yes. Note that Pulled Fangs does non-aggravated damage now.
Correct.
> >Zip gun says it deals 1 damage to the bearer when used. Does this
> >happen as soon as it is used? For instance, if Nik uses it to maneuver> >to long range, does he get damaged by Zip Gun before strikes are
> >declared (even though he is commited to sriking with the Zip Gun, when
> >he takes damage can be important, i.e. if he has no blood he goes to
> >torpor before striking the opposing minion.)
>
> The 1 damage is done during Strike Resolution, I believe.
Correct. The "when used" has been ruled to mean "when used to
strike", which is when the strike resolves.
> >Suppose Cardano and Zoe are fighting at close range, and both are at
> >full capacity. Zoe strikes with 1 hand, Cardano strikes with a superior
> >Theft of Vitae. This resolves, and combat ends. How much blood does
> >Cardano now have - i.e. do you burn blood for wounds after burning
> >excess stollen blood or not?
>> Cardano - 9 blood
> Zoe - 3 blood
> combat begins
> Zoe pops for 1 hand damage
> Cardano does 2 stolen
> Strikes resolve: 1 hand damage is dealt but not burned for yet
> 2 blood is stolen NOW and excess runs off
> Damage Prevention: None
> Damage Resolves: 1 hand damage is now actually burned by Cardano
>
> So Zoe is on 1 and Cardano on 8
Correct. When strikes resolve (simultaneously, since neither is
at First Strike), two blood is moved from Zoe to Cardano and
one damage is applied to Cardano.
Cardano has more blood than his capacity, so the excess drains
off immediately, as always. And he still has one damage to deal
with.
When he burns a blood to heal the damage, he'll be at eight blood.
> >As far as Theft of Vitae and similar cards are concerned, a retainer or
> >ally's life points are equivalent to blood, right?
>
> Correct.
Correct.
> [Re: card rarity numbers]
Sounds good to me - but I don't know for sure.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings:
http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch
Lupus Australis wrote:
> Bernie Bresnahan wrote:
> > If Theft of Vitae isn't really considered as damage, then if I do a regular
> > ol' hand strike (in retaliation) can I then follow up with a Pulled Fangs or
> > Disarm?
> >
> > Seems like I can..
>
> Yes indeed.
Correct.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Frederic Genest wrote:
> Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
> > However, the "heal damage" phase (in which Cardano burns one blood to heal
> > the damage) occurs immediately afterwards. Therefore, the excess blood
> > will drain off before Cardano can use it for this.
>
> I think this is not true. The VtES rulebook (online) says that stolen
> blood can be immediately used to heal damage:
>> VtES Rulebook, section 8.3
>
> "The stolen blood will also heal the vampire immediately. This blood can be
> burned by damage that is not dealt with First Strike."
>
> I gather from this that you can heal damage occuring simultaneously with
> the steal blood effect (i.e. in the same strike resolution phase): burn 1
> point for damage, gain one point for steal effect. Thus, Cardano would be
> at full capacity, and would have stolen 2 from Zoe.
You can use the stolen blood to heal damage that was dealt, yes.
But only if you still have the stolen blood.
Any time a vampire has more blood than his capacity allows, the
excess drains off immediately.
"Blood Capacity: ... the maximum strength the vampire has to heal
wounds ..." [3]
"Steal Blood: ... If the stolen blood exceeds the capacity of the
vampire stealing it, the excess is moved to the blood bank." [8.3]
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
> If I had a 6 capacity vampire on 0 blood and you did 1 damage to me and
> I stole 2 blood from you, I'd take 2 blood, none would drain off and I'd
> burn 1 for the damage.
Correct.
> That's the order it goes:
>
> Resolve strikes but DON'T deal damage
Better wording:
"Apply effects of strikes but don't resolve damage (just yet)"
> Let excess blood from steals burn NOW
> Prevent damage
> Burn blood for damage
Correct.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <35e893d6...@news1.sympatico.ca>, Bindusara
> <ste...@sympatico.ca> writes
> >Dodge: A "dodge" deals no damage, but it prevents the effect of the
> >opponent's strike that round, even if the opponent's strike was
> >delivered with First Strike.
> >Is the zip gun considered to be "used" if the opposing minion dodges?
>
> A dodge prevents the effects of a minion's strike to the dodging minion
... and any non-Retainer cards on the dodging minion.
> (the rulesbook is lazy - you might like to get a copy of the The
> complete rules reference some time, try LSJ's site, or have a looksy in
> DejaNews for it.... I'll try and dig it out some time for you).
>
> Damage still occurs from the Zip Gun even if you dodge.
> That makes sense, anyway. You leap out of the way of the bullet, but
> the gun has still backfired in my face (or however it deals its damage
> to me).
Correct.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings:
http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch
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