Charnas the Imp and ousting

Given that Political Struggle "goes off" when the Methuselah whose vampire it's on is ousted, shouldn't Charnas the Imp also move himself (with his text) in the same situation? The logic for Political Struggle seems to be that it is obviously intended to take effect when the vampire it's on is burned, since it mentions taking effect if the vampire is burned, even though normally the Struggle would be burned at the same time. That seems equally true of Charnas the Imp: "If the minion is burned, his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas on any minion." If they should work differently, why is that? thanks! Josh all pimped out

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:45:25 -0500, Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The logic for Political Struggle seems to be that it is obviously > intended > to take effect when the vampire it's on is burned, since it mentions > taking > effect if the vampire is burned, even though normally the Struggle would > be > burned at the same time. That seems equally true of Charnas the Imp: "If > the minion is burned, his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas > on > any minion." It can go either way. If the reply is no, the reasoning will probably be "The Methuselah, being ousted by the time the card takes effect, is in no position to alter the game state any further. The burning of all his or her cards are a result of him being ousted and basically removed from he game." It the reply is a yes, then it probably follows your logic. -- Bye, Daneel

Joshua Duffin wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Because Charnas is burned when you are ousted. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

<< > Given that Political Struggle "goes off" when the Methuselah whose vampire > it's on is ousted, shouldn't Charnas the Imp also move himself (with his > text) in the same situation? > The logic for Political Struggle seems to be that it is obviously intended > to take effect when the vampire it's on is burned, since it mentions taking > effect if the vampire is burned, even though normally the Struggle would be > burned at the same time. That seems equally true of Charnas the Imp: "If > the minion is burned, his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas on > any minion." > If they should work differently, why is that? Because Charnas is burned when you are ousted. >> Political Struggle states: "If the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the acting vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes the vampire with this card has; burn this card afterward." If a Methusaleh is ousted, then wouldn't all of his cards be burned (simultaneously)? Why wouldn't Political Struggle be burned before it has a chance to have its effect? You've previously stated that Death Pact would also work (just like with Political Struggle). "If that vampire is burned, put this card on the vampire who brought this card into play. This card then represents a [wraith] retainer with 2 life." How is this so very different from Charnas? "If the minion is burned, his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas on any minion." It just seems a little inconsistent that Death Pact and Charnas would behave so differently if a player was ousted.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:_0PGd.35613$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > > Given that Political Struggle "goes off" when the Methuselah whose vampire > > it's on is ousted, shouldn't Charnas the Imp also move himself (with his > > text) in the same situation? > > > > The logic for Political Struggle seems to be that it is obviously intended > > to take effect when the vampire it's on is burned, since it mentions taking > > effect if the vampire is burned, even though normally the Struggle would be > > burned at the same time. That seems equally true of Charnas the Imp: "If > > the minion is burned, his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas on > > any minion." > > > > If they should work differently, why is that? > > Because Charnas is burned when you are ousted. But in the same way that Political Struggle is burned when you're ousted. Yet Political Struggle still works in that case. And like Political Struggle, Charnas ought to get just as burned when the vampire he's on is burned "normally" as he does when his host is burned by having its controller ousted. Yet Charnas does move in the former case (since the Imp would make no sense otherwise). Josh still seeking consistency

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:355a8vF...@individual.net... > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > Because Charnas is burned when you are ousted. > > But in the same way that Political Struggle is burned when you're > ousted. Yet Political Struggle still works in that case. And like > Political Struggle, Charnas ought to get just as burned when the vampire > he's on is burned "normally" as he does when his host is burned by > having its controller ousted. Yet Charnas does move in the former case > (since the Imp would make no sense otherwise). Because the votes gained are not controlled by the ousted Meth. If it helps, I agree that it is inconsistent from the "when what burns" point of view. I also am of the opinion that Charnas should work the way it does and (obviously) Political Struggle the way it does. The inconsistency is resolved by appealing to the non-controlled-card aspect of the votes being bestowed (as opposed to the controlled-card aspect of the Imp that would be bestowed). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:355b47F...@individual.net... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:355a8vF...@individual.net... > > But in the same way that Political Struggle is burned when you're > > ousted. Yet Political Struggle still works in that case. And like > > Political Struggle, Charnas ought to get just as burned when the vampire > > he's on is burned "normally" as he does when his host is burned by > > having its controller ousted. Yet Charnas does move in the former case > > (since the Imp would make no sense otherwise). > > > Because the votes gained are not controlled by the ousted Meth. > > If it helps, I agree that it is inconsistent from the "when what burns" > point of view. I also am of the opinion that Charnas should work the > way it does and (obviously) Political Struggle the way it does. > The inconsistency is resolved by appealing to the non-controlled-card > aspect of the votes being bestowed (as opposed to the controlled-card > aspect of the Imp that would be bestowed). Thanks, that does help, although if Charnas works when the vampire he's on is burned, which obviously he must, it's not clear why he shouldn't still work when the burning is the result of an oust. It seems like it would improve consistency for Charnas to be "giftable" from beyond the grave, or else for him to have text indicating that he isn't. Charnas would be less powerful if he could come back to bite you if the Meth you give him to is ousted, sure. But not hugely so. Josh charnas the princess pimp

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:12:44 -0500, "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> scrawled: >Thanks, that does help, although if Charnas works when the vampire he's >on is burned, which obviously he must, it's not clear why he shouldn't >still work when the burning is the result of an oust. i think the thing is: vamp A has a charnas and a political struggle on it. meth is ousted. Vamp A and Charnas and Politial struggle are all burned. political struggle's _effect_ still kicks in, because it's some floaty votey thing that isn't actually a card. does that help? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

> i think the thing is: > > vamp A has a charnas and a political struggle on it. > meth is ousted. > > Vamp A and Charnas and Politial struggle are all burned. > > political struggle's _effect_ still kicks in, because it's some floaty > votey thing that isn't actually a card. > Look at it this way: Charnas tries to move, but he's already been burned.

"Gregory Stuart Pettigrew" <ethe...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message news:2005011817...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net... [salem wrote] [ quoted text not captured ] You're both right, sure. But when the vampire Charnas is on is burned "normally"... he tries to move, but he's already been burned? But he has to move then, that's how his text says he moves. And while the Political Struggle "floaty thing" idea is not unreasonable, it is an effect produced by a card in play; normally, effects produced by cards in play require the card to be in play for the effect to be produced. If you follow. :-) Political Struggle is an exception to that for the same reason that Charnas is: it has to be for its effect to work at all properly. But why Struggle and Charnas don't behave the same way (and either way might be reasonable) on an oust isn't inherently obvious, I think. Josh sees the writing in the flames

[ quoted text not captured ] But why does Death Pact still work then? This is what you seem to indicate in the thread "LSJ: Cards burned on ousting" in January 1999. Charnas seems to mirror Death Pact more than Political Struggle. So why is there a difference between how Charnas and Death Pact deal with an oust?

Joshua Duffin wrote: > Thanks, that does help, although if Charnas works when the vampire he's > on is burned, which obviously he must, it's not clear why he shouldn't > still work when the burning is the result of an oust. I think that it is clear from Charnas' card text ("If the minion is burned...") that he is not burned when the vampire-he-is-on is burned, and therefore he works in this case. Card text supersedes the rule that "cards on a minion are burned when the minion is burned". It's also clear that if his controlling Methuselah has been ousted, then there is no-one available to complete his text: "...his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas on any minion." That Methuselah no longer exists, hence they can't do the action. Hence it is clear that he shouldn't work in this situation. It's not that his card text doesn't have an opportunity to activate, it's that necessary components (a controlling Methuselah) are no longer present. Possibly, it helps to imagine what would happen if Charnas' text instead said, "If the minion is burned *a random* Methuselah can put Charnas on any minion." I believe (of course, I'm inevitably wrong) that in this case Charnas would "work" when his controlling Methuselah is ousted, as there are still random Methuselahs present in the game. * lehrbuch

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > But why does Death Pact still work then? ... > Charnas seems to mirror Death Pact more than Political Struggle. So why > is there a difference between how Charnas and Death Pact deal with an > oust? Because their card texts are different. In an oust situation, Death Pact doesn't require a non-existent Methuselah to choose anything. Death Pact's text says: "If that vampire is burned, put this card on the vampire who brought this card into play." As long as the originally acting vampire is present the Pact's text can be completed. This is unlike Charnas' text that says: "If the minion is burned, his or her controlling Methuselah can put Charnas on any minion." If Charnas' controlling Methuselah has been ousted, i.e. does not exist, then the text cannot be completed. Therefore, Charnas does not work in this circumstance. * lehrbuch

lehrbuch wrote: > It's not that his card text doesn't have an opportunity to activate, > it's that necessary components (a controlling Methuselah) are no longer > present. Much better angle. Thanks. > Possibly, it helps to imagine what would happen if Charnas' text instead > said, "If the minion is burned *a random* Methuselah can put Charnas on > any minion." I believe (of course, I'm inevitably wrong) that in this > case Charnas would "work" when his controlling Methuselah is ousted, as > there are still random Methuselahs present in the game. I'll buy that. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]