A problem with re-prints

The one thing that bothers be the most is how many re-printed cards there are. Why are cards like Disguised Weapon, Flash, Manstopper Rounds, etc in Sabbat Wars? I thought we were supposed to be able to use older cards with the new ones? If that is true then why did WW think it was necessary to make card sets that contained so many re-prints of older cards? WW should have made sets consisting of 100% new cards. If someone wanted Disguised weapon cards in their deck they can get them from the V:TES set. Was WW too lazy to make all new cards? Or was it cheaper to do mostly re-prints? At least WotC put new art work on the re-printed cards in Sabbat. Sabbat Wars was really bad for the amount of re-printed cards. Final Nights wasn't so bad. I think the only re-printed cards were in the pre-constructed decks (which were basically all re-printed cards with maybe 3 or 4 new cards). Bloodlines was the best because it was all new cards. Camarilla Edition looks like it will be similar to Sabbat Wars. Mostly re-prints with only a few new cards (all new vampire with just a few new library cards). Since I mainly only collect now (all the players in my area stopped playing for one reason or another) I have actually decided that I am only going to collect the new cards from Sabbat Wars and Final Nights. I don't want any reprints. I also didn't like the fact that there were cards in Sabbat Wars that people could only get in the pre-constructed decks and not in the boosters, but I'll save that for a different rant. I know it is too late to change the sets that have already been released but I hope that WW's future sets wont contain such a high number of unnecessary re-prints. Shadowdragon

>The one thing that bothers be the most is how many re-printed cards >there are. Why are cards like Disguised Weapon, Flash, Manstopper >Rounds, etc in Sabbat Wars? I thought we were supposed to be able to use >older cards with the new ones? If that is true then why did WW think it >was necessary to make card sets that contained so many re-prints of >older cards? WW should have made sets consisting of 100% new cards. If >someone wanted Disguised weapon cards in their deck they can get them >from the V:TES set. Was WW too lazy to make all new cards? Or was it >cheaper to do mostly re-prints? At least WotC put new art work on the >re-printed cards in Sabbat. There are several reasons why there might be reprints: #1. For stand-alone sets, it may be pointless and/or frivolous to create new cards that serve basic functions that are already dealt with by existing cards. It's like re-inventing the wheel. We have Blood Doll, Minion Tap, and Tribute to the Master. Do we really want every expansion to come up with a slightly tweaked version? Blood Doll is already a fine, staple card so I don't see why we can't keep bringing it back (in the precons and all). #2. Forcing every expansion and set to be comprised of completely new cards would create a gigantic influx of new cards. Jyhad/VTES does an excellent job in maintaining balance. A Camarilla base set that only adds 3 or 4 new Potence cards, and 3 or 4 new Presence cards is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to balance (in the short-term and long-term) than a base set consisting of all new cards with 12 new Potence and 12 new Presence cards. #3. In some cases, there were distribution problems and/or difficulty in getting old cards. The Sabbat expansion is notoriously difficult to get ahold of, and Ancient Hearts is similarly a bit scarce. Without reprints, newer players would be heavily disadvantaged since they wouldn't be able to get some of the older cards. #4. There are some staple cards (like Blood Doll) which are important to all manner of decks. In that case, it doesn't really matter if you get several Blood Dolls from SW and some from FN and some from the Camarilla Base Set. It's a basic and versatile card that's important to have for most players. #5. There are reprinted cards exactly *because* you are "able to use older cards with the new ones." With "That Other Game," since they constantly rotate out expansions, you see them constantly re-inventing the wheel. (Creating the same card but changing the name, the card text, and maybe the creature type. But you still have tons of 2/2 green creatures costing 1 green and 1 other. Etc.). #6. Having all of the expansions consist of only new cards would also coerce customers into buying more and more boxes. This might seem like a good marketing idea, but would probably drive more people away. That's why I quit "that other game." Every new expansion kept having more and more powerful cards and you just "had to" have them to be competitive. >Sabbat Wars was really bad for the amount of re-printed cards. Sabbat Wars was specifically supposed to have lots of re-printed cards. To provide for the many people who were never able to get their hands on the Sabbat. >Bloodlines was the best because it was all new >cards. There are quite a lot of players who were annoyed by Bloodlines' rarity scheme. Too many new cards and you often had to buy a ridiculous number of boxes to get a full set. >I also didn't like the fact that there were cards in Sabbat Wars that >people could only get in the pre-constructed decks and not in the >boosters, but I'll save that for a different rant. That's called efficiency and/or a compromise. By keeping the pre-constructed decks reprints, players that already have a lot of the old cards can mostly skip the starters and just buy boosters. But at the same time, this wouldn't be a good idea for the company since less people would be buying the starters. Thus a compromise is that there are a few (just two vampires for a particular starter) that are only available in that starter. Thus there is a small incentive for even Mr. Suitcase to get some starters. >I know it is too late to change the sets that have already been released >but I hope that WW's future sets wont contain such a high number of >unnecessary re-prints. The key word is "unnecessary." Many would argue that the reprints so far, and many in the future are indeed "necessary." Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020429022403...@mb-ba.aol.com... > >The one thing that bothers be the most is how many re-printed cards > >there are. Why are cards like Disguised Weapon, Flash, Manstopper > >Rounds, etc in Sabbat Wars? I thought we were supposed to be able to use > >older cards with the new ones? If that is true then why did WW think it > >was necessary to make card sets that contained so many re-prints of > >older cards? WW should have made sets consisting of 100% new cards. If > >someone wanted Disguised weapon cards in their deck they can get them > >from the V:TES set. Was WW too lazy to make all new cards? Or was it > >cheaper to do mostly re-prints? At least WotC put new art work on the > >re-printed cards in Sabbat. > > There are several reasons why there might be reprints: > > #1. For stand-alone sets, it may be pointless and/or frivolous to create new > cards that serve basic functions that are already dealt with by existing cards. > It's like re-inventing the wheel. We have Blood Doll, Minion Tap, and Tribute > to the Master. Do we really want every expansion to come up with a slightly > tweaked version? Blood Doll is already a fine, staple card so I don't see why > we can't keep bringing it back (in the precons and all). I really like the idea of reprints in starters and new cards in boosters. It gives ppl a choice as to wether they want to buy reprints ( and specific ones in specific quantities at that ) or new cards. I may be wrong but I think this was the case in FN. As mentioned, SW is a stand alone set, if you only want to play Sabbat, you don't want to have to buy V:TES boosters, which are hard to locate, and contain a lot of Camarilla cards that you can't use. So, as pointed out by Halcyan, why re-invent the wheel, just reprint the V:TES stuff that would be useful. > #2. Forcing every expansion and set to be comprised of completely new cards > would create a gigantic influx of new cards. Jyhad/VTES does an excellent job > in maintaining balance. A Camarilla base set that only adds 3 or 4 new Potence > cards, and 3 or 4 new Presence cards is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to balance (in > the short-term and long-term) than a base set consisting of all new cards with > 12 new Potence and 12 new Presence cards. I very much agree here. Despite initial complaints when cards first come out, experience has shown that 99% of cards are well balanced with very few cards becoming redundant. > #3. In some cases, there were distribution problems and/or difficulty in > getting old cards. The Sabbat expansion is notoriously difficult to get ahold > of, and Ancient Hearts is similarly a bit scarce. Without reprints, newer > players would be heavily disadvantaged since they wouldn't be able to get some > of the older cards. Very, very true. It's a great injustice to new players to be disadvantaged by the inacessability of cards from older sets. > #4. There are some staple cards (like Blood Doll) which are important to all > manner of decks. In that case, it doesn't really matter if you get several > Blood Dolls from SW and some from FN and some from the Camarilla Base Set. It's > a basic and versatile card that's important to have for most players. Which is why it gets reprinted, you can always do with more :) > #5. There are reprinted cards exactly *because* you are "able to use older > cards with the new ones." With "That Other Game," since they constantly rotate > out expansions, you see them constantly re-inventing the wheel. (Creating the > same card but changing the name, the card text, and maybe the creature type. > But you still have tons of 2/2 green creatures costing 1 green and 1 other. > Etc.). I was talking to a friend today about "That Other Game", he likes playing it but consistantly found that he'd always have to buy buttloads of the latest set to get the power rares to make his decks competitive. > #6. Having all of the expansions consist of only new cards would also coerce > customers into buying more and more boxes. This might seem like a good > marketing idea, but would probably drive more people away. That's why I quit > "that other game." Every new expansion kept having more and more powerful cards > and you just "had to" have them to be competitive. Heh, the exact point my friend made :) > >Sabbat Wars was really bad for the amount of re-printed cards. > > Sabbat Wars was specifically supposed to have lots of re-printed cards. To > provide for the many people who were never able to get their hands on the > Sabbat. > > >Bloodlines was the best because it was all new > >cards. > > There are quite a lot of players who were annoyed by Bloodlines' rarity scheme. > Too many new cards and you often had to buy a ridiculous number of boxes to get > a full set. I think WW are achieving a great balance between reprints and new cards. I was annoyed by, not so much the rarity scheme in itself, but which cards were rare in BL. There were too many rare cards that you'd want several of in just about any deck using discipline X. Muricia's Call & Engling Fury being good examples, I mean, as if you wouldn't have at least 3 of each in every Ahrimanes deck. Same goes for Darkling Trickers except you'd want even more in any Myt deck that fights ( and even several in a non-fight deck ). > >I also didn't like the fact that there were cards in Sabbat Wars that > >people could only get in the pre-constructed decks and not in the > >boosters, but I'll save that for a different rant. > > That's called efficiency and/or a compromise. By keeping the pre-constructed > decks reprints, players that already have a lot of the old cards can mostly > skip the starters and just buy boosters. But at the same time, this wouldn't be > a good idea for the company since less people would be buying the starters. > Thus a compromise is that there are a few (just two vampires for a particular > starter) that are only available in that starter. Thus there is a small > incentive for even Mr. Suitcase to get some starters. Not the best situation for many player but as stated, it's a good marketing decision, one which I have no major complaints about, most starters have some nice reprints in them anyway, as well as the new cards. > >I know it is too late to change the sets that have already been released > >but I hope that WW's future sets wont contain such a high number of > >unnecessary re-prints. > > The key word is "unnecessary." Many would argue that the reprints so far, and > many in the future are indeed "necessary." > > Halcyan 2 I think the the high number of reprints is necesseary for this next set. Remeber that it's been several years since some of these cards have been available.

> I think the the high number of reprints is necesseary for this next set. > Remeber that it's been several years since some of these cards have been > available. Agreed. But release the cards in such a way that the older players can pick and choose (to some extent) what cards they want reprints of. An example of this scheme was evidenced in FN where only the starters contained reprints. I realize that there are going to be too many reprints to really do this, but hopefully WW can find a way. It's like, exactly *how many* sets are going to release _the same card_? With the new cam edition, that will make 5 sets that some cards were reprinted in. I don't need another 40+ of a particular common that was reprinted in 4 sets previously that I already have 100+ of. I want to buy boosters/starters from the cam edition to get cards I don't have but not if it's going to leave me with tons and tons of cards that I am just going to end up giving away and thus wasting the money. Reprints are fine if done smartly. With the exception of Final Nights, they hadn't been. And if they aren't in the future, the reprints just become gratuitous and it turns off the older players. Yes, you do need to think about the newer players who don't have the cards, but you cannot turn off a sigificant portion of your player base otherwise you will lose money. And we can all agree that is something we don't want WW to do. Sorrow --- Through the screams of falling steel. By the light of flares and wisdom. All the doubts I could not face. All this time I wanted more. With a line I'll mark the past as a symbol of beginning. To the gods whose names we've lost and the names who gave in vain.

Sorrow wrote: > > > I think the the high number of reprints is necesseary for this next set. > > Remeber that it's been several years since some of these cards have been > > available. > > Agreed. But release the cards in such a way that the older players can > pick and choose (to some extent) what cards they want reprints of. An > example of this scheme was evidenced in FN where only the starters > contained reprints. I realize that there are going to be too many reprints > to really do this, but hopefully WW can find a way. It's like, exactly *how > many* sets are going to release _the same card_? With the new cam > edition, that will make 5 sets that some cards were reprinted in. I don't > need another 40+ of a particular common that was reprinted in 4 sets > previously that I already have 100+ of. I want to buy boosters/starters > from the cam edition to get cards I don't have but not if it's going to leave > me with tons and tons of cards that I am just going to end up giving away > and thus wasting the money. > Reprints are fine if done smartly. With the exception of Final Nights, > they hadn't been. And if they aren't in the future, the reprints just become > gratuitous and it turns off the older players. Yes, you do need to think > about the newer players who don't have the cards, but you cannot turn > off a sigificant portion of your player base otherwise you will lose money. > And we can all agree that is something we don't want WW to do. > Exactly! Actually, I like the idea of having all the re-prints in the starters and all the new cards in the boosters. New players wanting to get into the game can pick up a starter and get all the staple cards they need that are out of print. But long time players can skip the starters (thus skipping all the cards they already have from previous sets) and just get all the new cards. If Camarilla Edition is like Final Nights then great, I'll get as many of the boosters as I can afford and leave the starters to new players. If it is like Sabbat Wars I think I might pass and wait for The Anarchs. Now that Sabbat Wars and Final Nights are out of print will WW re-print cards from those sets in the newer sets? Shadowdragon

I just went through the Sabbat Wars set. There are only 77 new cards in that set (including vampires). 77 new cards in a set of 437 cards. That is pathetic. Shadowdragon [ quoted text not captured ]

> I just went through the Sabbat Wars set. There are only 77 new cards in > that set (including vampires). 77 new cards in a set of 437 cards. That > is pathetic. No, it's not. SW was designed to be a reprint of the Sabbat base set just as the Camarilla Edition is designed to be a reprint of the V:tes base set. Sorrow --- "Happiness sucks" -me

> > Reprints are fine if done smartly. With the exception of Final Nights, > > they hadn't been. And if they aren't in the future, the reprints just become > > gratuitous and it turns off the older players. Yes, you do need to think > > about the newer players who don't have the cards, but you cannot turn > > off a sigificant portion of your player base otherwise you will lose money. > > And we can all agree that is something we don't want WW to do. > Exactly! Actually, I like the idea of having all the re-prints in the starters and > all the new cards in the boosters. I don't think this will be feasible. There will be too many reprints and too few starters. > sets) and just get all the new cards. If Camarilla Edition is like Final > Nights then great, I'll get as many of the boosters as I can afford and > leave the starters to new players. If it is like Sabbat Wars I think I > might pass and wait for The Anarchs. What would be nice would be to have different "types" of boosters. One that has random Allies, equipment and retainers, one that has random combat, one w/random masters and actions, etc. I believe other card games do something like this but I could be wrong... > Now that Sabbat Wars and Final Nights are out of print will WW re-print > cards from those sets in the newer sets? Are they out of print? I've heard no such thing. Of course, I'm by far from the authority. :p Sorrow --- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is a spiritual war. Our depression is our lives." - Tyler Durden

chris...@charter.net writes: >With the new cam >edition, that will make 5 sets that some cards were reprinted in. I don't >need another 40+ of a particular common that was reprinted in 4 sets >previously that I already have 100+ of. I want to buy boosters/starters >from the cam edition to get cards I don't have but not if it's going to leave >me with tons and tons of cards that I am just going to end up giving away >and thus wasting the money. *You* may not want reprints, but the Cam set has explicitly been aimed at new players as well. There's a lot of cards you need to make normal decks like Majesty, Theft of Vitae, hunting grounds, Computer Hack, Deflection, etc., and if they (or close substitutes) aren't reprinted the new players will quit. With many of the cards you want more than WW seems to want to print in the starter packs (and I'm not convinced WW should change that - 15 Majesty Ventrue starters I can pass on) Just from the nature of the CCG beast, you always get lots of cards you don't want but we buy the cards anyway as long as we get reasonable numbers of the ones we do. Nobody has a right to expect the set to be perfectly designed for them. I'd be relatively content with Sabbat reprints, as I don't yet have a lot of SW and no Sabbat whatsoever. Some people will roll their eyes at Sabbat reprints. To somebody who can only buy DS, AH, and SB based on current availability (namely me, but by extension new players) I find the reprint balance pretty good, although I've complained about some rarity issues. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

> *You* may not want reprints, but the Cam set has explicitly been aimed > at new players as well. Understood. And I'm not saying that there should be *no* reprints at all. Obviously, that's the whole point of the set. However, what I am saying is that they should be done *smartly*. I will grant you that this set is more aimed towards the newer players. However, there is also a very large player base that needs to be pandered (pardon the pun) to. If *only* new players buy this set the odds are not good that it will make much money. So old players are going to need to buy into it as well. That's all good and fine. However, old players won't be buying into it if it means a ton more cards that they already have 4 tons of. For example, I've got lots of .44 Mags from 4 previous sets, I don't need any more. So reprint away. Make it so new players will want to buy and cards they need and want. But also make it so old players will want to buy and cards they need and want. Sorrow --- If you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Michael (Shadowdragon) wrote: > Why are cards like Disguised Weapon, Flash, Manstopper > Rounds, etc in Sabbat Wars? I thought we were supposed to be able to use > older cards with the new ones? If that is true then why did WW think it > was necessary to make card sets that contained so many re-prints of > older cards? A) Not all players own or have access to older cards and/or sets. When WW took over and released the game, they decided it was in their best interest to effectively start from square one, so that people just starting the game would have access to basic building blocks (like Flash, Wake, and Blood Doll). B) They wanted to make stand alone starter sets that you could play right out of the box, which is good for new players and sealed deck events. >I also didn't like the fact that there were cards in Sabbat Wars that >people could only get in the pre-constructed decks and not in the >boosters, but I'll save that for a different rant. There were very few of those--two vampires in each box, plus probably some reprinted cards. It gives incentive to buy starter decks. A viable buisness decision. -Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6

Michael (Shadowdragon) wrote: > I just went through the Sabbat Wars set. There are only 77 new cards in > that set (including vampires). 77 new cards in a set of 437 cards. That > is pathetic. Sabbat War was basicaly a rerelease of the game, starting from square one. White Wolf has no control over what pre White Wolf release sets (Jyhad, VTES, Ancient Hearts, Dark Soverigns, Sabbat) are available to players, so as they were essentially ressurecting a dead game, why would they not make a set that was essentially a stand alone basic set? Given that Sabbat War was, essentially a stand alone starter set, and there are, say, 360 important cards that players who are just starting the game need to have, it makes perfect sense to reprint them in the stand alone starter set. When White Wolf brought VTES back to life, they had to build up a new player base, and to do that, they needed to print all the basic building blocks of the game. Sabbat War was how they did that. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Michael (Shadowdragon)" <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3CCD8BAF...@rogers.com>... > I just went through the Sabbat Wars set. There are only 77 new cards in > that set (including vampires). 77 new cards in a set of 437 cards. That > is pathetic. Sure, there weren't a lot of new cards in SW, but then, if you were playing when Sabbat was first released, IN 1996--FOUR FULL YEARS BEFORE SABBAT WAR, then you pretty much had everything you'd want, and hopefully could trade for the stuff you needed anew. Or, you could buy one box, get all the commons and almost all the uncommons, then do some trading or buying singles for a set. I think White Wolf's track record, short though it may be, is pretty good so far. Sabbat War was their first attempt, and they wanted to get people back into the game, expanding upon Sabbat, which left most antitribu clans wanting. I was more disappointed with my 2 boxes of Final Nights really, because I now have a zillion commons that I know I'll never use. I mean, who needs 12 Banners of Neutrality? I was very happy to get more Vampires for the Independent clans (I like the underdogs), and there were some key commons too. But in general I won't use most of the extra stuff. I don't mind getting more Blood Dolls, Blurs, Undead Strength, Lost in Crowds, Presence/Dominate bleed cards because I use them all the time in multiple decks! It'd be a drag for someone like me (can afford 2 boxes per expansion plus random boosters) to have to keep switching my staple cards around between my Lasombra Bruise/Bleed and my Malk Stealth/Bleed all the time. Reprinted commons help tremendously here.

The problem is that WW is trying to make everyone happy. They are trying to attract new players, but the new players need cards that have been out of print for more then 4 years. WW doesn't want to make new cards with similar effects to older cards (although I don't know why) so they just reprint older cards and add in a few new cards to bring back long time players. Unfortunately it means that old time players have to put up with buying a lot of reprinted cards to get the few new cards. At least WW could have made new art work for their re-prints, like what WotC did for Sabbat. I can see the value of doing pre-constructed decks that have nothing but reprints. This allows new players to buy all the older cards, but long time players can ignore them and just get boosters. Sabbat Wars, and the Camarilla Edition should have done that. Instead, we have to pay a lot of money to get cards we already have so that we can get the measly 77 new cards. Shadowdragon [ quoted text not captured ]

"Michael (Shadowdragon)" <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:3CCDFC1F...@rogers.com... > The problem is that WW is trying to make everyone happy. They are trying > to attract new players, but the new players need cards that have been > out of print for more then 4 years. None of these objections you are bringing up are really novel. Try searching google.com for "reprints" and "new expansion" from sometime in 1999 through early 2001, and come back when you have something new to add. > WW doesn't want to make new cards > with similar effects to older cards (although I don't know why) so they They don't want to reinvent the wheel? They don't want to pay a lot of money for completely new art to create virtual duplicates of perfectly working cards that already exist? They have one (or more) smart cookies at the helm? A small number of cards with similar effects to currently existing ones (Govern vs. Scouting Mission, for example) is fine, but when you have duplication of existing effects for no reason other than to add unneeded variety, it's...somewhat pointless. If you virtually duplicate a bad card, people are going to be upset to see a clone that they *still* don't want to use. If you duplicate a good card, people are going to be upset that you didn't just reprint the original which was fully functional already. > just reprint older cards and add in a few new cards to bring back long > time players. Unfortunately it means that old time players have to put > up with buying a lot of reprinted cards to get the few new cards. At Again, this is not new. I suspect that WW is guessing that there are enough other cards from the original set (Freak Drive, ToGP, Hostile Takeover, 2nd Tradition, etc.) that the older players *still* want more copies of, that sales among the older players will be steady, if not perhaps as brisk as for the Sabbat War expansion. I imagine approximately 100 new vampires will definitely help sales out as well. > least WW could have made new art work for their re-prints, like what > WotC did for Sabbat. I can see the value of doing pre-constructed decks Personally, I prefer to have the same artwork retained from set to set (although I could have done without the Sabbat version of Flash). It reduces confusion when you're skimming through any bunch of cards (draft tournament, your own cards, someone else's deck), and on the plus side for WW, it reduces their costs. > that have nothing but reprints. This allows new players to buy all the > older cards, but long time players can ignore them and just get > boosters. Sabbat Wars, and the Camarilla Edition should have done that. Sabbat War did pretty much do that. Of course, Sabbat War also had old cards in the boosters, but since SW was basically a resurrection of the game, WW needed to reprint a lot of cards that new players would need. Since there were a number of other good cards in the boosters (Coma, Slave Auction, Disarm, etc.), it seemed like things worked out well for most concerned. > Instead, we have to pay a lot of money to get cards we already have so > that we can get the measly 77 new cards. In Sabbat War, yes. There are (over?) 100 new vampires in the upcoming Camarilla set, and an unspecified number of new library cards. No excitement that a lot of good old cards are going to be reprinted, along with more new cards than were included in the SW printing. Xian -- I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. --_Shellshock_, New Order www.waste.org/~xian

Xian wrote: > > "Michael (Shadowdragon)" <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message > news:3CCDFC1F...@rogers.com... > > WW doesn't want to make new cards > > with similar effects to older cards (although I don't know why) so they > > They don't want to reinvent the wheel? They don't want to pay a lot of money > for completely new art to create virtual duplicates of perfectly working cards > that already exist? They have one (or more) smart cookies at the helm? > > A small number of cards with similar effects to currently existing ones (Govern > vs. Scouting Mission, for example) is fine, but when you have duplication of > existing effects for no reason other than to add unneeded variety, > it's...somewhat pointless. If you virtually duplicate a bad card, people are > going to be upset to see a clone that they *still* don't want to use. If you > duplicate a good card, people are going to be upset that you didn't just reprint > the original which was fully functional already. > The reason to "reinvent the wheel" is so that new players will get cards with effects similar to those that are out of print, but also have it so that older players aren't buying cards they already have from previous sets. Because WW took over V:TES from WotC they should have "reinvented the wheel". It is better then just reprinting an older set with a few new cards added in. Shadowdragon

"Michael (Shadowdragon)" <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:3CCE145F...@rogers.com... > Xian wrote: [snip] > The reason to "reinvent the wheel" is so that new players will get cards > with effects similar to those that are out of print, but also have it so And have them complain that they they're at a disadvantage precisely *because* they can't get the old OOP cards? Interesting solution. A base set, by way of attempting some sort of definition, is a set that prints/reprints cards that are meant to be in common circulation, and it is presumed that all players will have equal access to these cards. For this reason, it makes sense to reprint the old OOP cards that older players have access to, but new players do not currently. > that older players aren't buying cards they already have from previous > sets. Because WW took over V:TES from WotC they should have "reinvented > the wheel". It is better then just reprinting an older set with a few > new cards added in. In your opinion. Which is different from mine, and apparently different from what WW's marketing-sense is telling them. Xian

In message <3CCDFC1F...@rogers.com>, "Michael (Shadowdragon)" <mtbed...@rogers.com> mumbled something about: >The problem is that WW is trying to make everyone happy. They are trying >to attract new players, but the new players need cards that have been >out of print for more then 4 years. WW doesn't want to make new cards If new players are not constantly coming to your game, it will die. I am personally still astonished that V:TES even managed one rebirth; this is something almost completely unheard of for a CCG. If we kill it again, it will stay dead forever. This means we must, must, must, MUST have new players. For this, I am willing to put up with occasional reprints, as long as sets like Final Nights and Bloodlines come out that have scads of new cards. >with similar effects to older cards (although I don't know why) so they Example: Govern the Unaligned. By your rules, you can't just duplicate the effect with a different name, so you need to modify the effect and produce a similar one. Scouting Mission already exists, so you can't go in that direction. Govern is one of the staple common cards for Dominate, though, so if you don't find SOMETHING relatively equivalent to the effect, you're going to screw the new players who won't be able to stand up to old-school decks built around shedloads of Govern, because they don't have anything to match it. And they will get pissed and quit; see above about killing the game. And you need that effect to not break the game. Scouting Mission works because it's simply a scaled-down Govern, and because "free" instead of "1 blood" is strong and makes up for the scaled-down effects. But going in the other direction either breaks Dominate or totally sucks: the new card "t0tal 0wnersh1p", which costs 2 blood, is a bleed at +3 at inferior, and adds 4 pool to an uncontrolled younger vampire? That's too strong at superior and costs too much at inferior -- might as well just reprint Govern, because that way you don't have to recheck balance against every other card. And now you have to do this for every Jyhad card. That's a lot of work that really is neither necessary nor productive. >just reprint older cards and add in a few new cards to bring back long >time players. Unfortunately it means that old time players have to put Except, of course, for Final Nights and Bloodlines, the boosters of which were 100% new cards. >up with buying a lot of reprinted cards to get the few new cards. At Except for Final Nights and Bloodlines, where I bought three boxes of FN boosters and got NO reprints whatsoever. Obviously, no reprints were in Bloodlines. >WotC did for Sabbat. I can see the value of doing pre-constructed decks >that have nothing but reprints. This allows new players to buy all the Funny, that seems to have been what Final Nights and Sabbat War were -- pre-cons that had mostly reprints, and boosters that were largely (or 100%) new cards. >older cards, but long time players can ignore them and just get >boosters. Sabbat Wars, and the Camarilla Edition should have done that. Funny, Sabbat War did that, I thought. >Instead, we have to pay a lot of money to get cards we already have so >that we can get the measly 77 new cards. Want to be useful? Sell your extra cards at cost, or on the cheap, to some new players in your area. We have a "give-away box" around here, where we throw in tons of commons and uncommons that we are never going to use and purchased back when Jyhad boxes were $5 each. We also put in the USEFUL commons (govern, social charm, .44 magnum, flash, etc), not just all our spare Submachine Guns and Chainsaws. Those I use as bookmarks. I still have mostly Jyhad cards in my collection. I'd like to replace them with V:TES backed cards, as I take quite a risk playing certain decks in tournaments otherwise (the Business Pressure deck I took to the finals at DragonCon, for example, had to be very carefully built, as all my Business Pressure are Jyhad-backed and I had to make sure I could prove I had no way to tell when a BP was coming up -- so I had to scrounge through and make sure I was about 50/50 on Jyhad- and V:TES- backed cards.) -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 04:01:46 GMT, Derek Ray wrote: >I am personally still astonished that V:TES even managed one rebirth; >this is something almost completely unheard of for a CCG. If we kill it >again, it will stay dead forever. You might say L5R has had two rebirths as it has passed from FRPG to WotC to AEG though it has always had the same designer throughout. Other CCGs which have suffered something similar include: Rage, Shadowfist and Doomtown. Doomtrooper has been resurrected in online form while the Decipher Star Wars CCG is entering an interesting new phase now that they have lost their licence. They are creating virtual cards (overlays providing new text for existing cards). >I still have mostly Jyhad cards in my collection. I'd like to replace >them with V:TES backed cards, as I take quite a risk playing certain >decks in tournaments otherwise (the Business Pressure deck I took to the >finals at DragonCon, for example, had to be very carefully built, as all >my Business Pressure are Jyhad-backed and I had to make sure I could >prove I had no way to tell when a BP was coming up -- so I had to >scrounge through and make sure I was about 50/50 on Jyhad- and V:TES- >backed cards.) It would still be a marked deck as you can still tell when a Business Pressure isn't coming up. Just buy a pack of opaque sleeves. The new Japanese ones are good. Now that such sleeves exist, I can't see any reason that visible mixed backs should still be tolerated Andrew

In message <CC4E13B3D6CA85DD.B4318831...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] Not useful enough to matter. I defy anyone to base a viable strategy on NOT top-decking a card of their choice -- in general, you shouldn't be trying to top-deck cards anyway, you should be playing them from your hand. In practice, I don't even bother speculating about the top card; if it's something I happen to need, that's great. (compare to the VERY viable strategy of making all bleed modifiers Jyhad-backed and all stealth modifiers V:TES backed.) >Japanese ones are good. Now that such sleeves exist, I can't see any >reason that visible mixed backs should still be tolerated Because sleeves suck to shuffle, and the gleam off them generally prevents others from reading the card without making a visible effort. I don't like being forced to give "tells" such as "hey, how much pool do you have?" or "what disciplines does that vampire have?" ... both of which indicate a target, and if I either choose not to take the action at that time OR I happen to do this on someone else's turn, that indicator could easily spell problems for me. "You're looking at that vampire? I guess I'd better banish Beast then, instead of your Cardinal." I sleeve my crypts because I often include 2-3 Jyhad-back vamps in with the other 9-10, and when you only have 2 Jyhad vamps, you can always tell which one they are. But sleeving a library? Unnecessary. [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorrow wrote: > > > Now that Sabbat Wars and Final Nights are out of print will WW re-print > > cards from those sets in the newer sets? > > Are they out of print? I've heard no such thing. Of course, I'm by far from > the authority. :p > WW did 2 print runs of Sabbat Wars. Both runs have nearly sold out (or have already sold out) and WW is not planning on doing a 3rd. The first print run of Final Nights has also nearly sold out (or has already sold out) and WW is not planning on doing a 2nd. There was a discussion about it a while ago (I can't remember when exactly). So now that Sabbat Wars and Final Nights are out of print will we see re-prints of cards from those sets in newer sets? Shadowdragon

"Michael (Shadowdragon)" wrote: > WW did 2 print runs of Sabbat Wars. Both runs have nearly sold out (or > have already sold out) and WW is not planning on doing a 3rd. The first > print run of Final Nights has also nearly sold out (or has already sold > out) and WW is not planning on doing a 2nd. There was a discussion about > it a while ago (I can't remember when exactly). There has been no official statement re: "WW is not planning to make another print run" for any particular set, AFAIK. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Sorrow" <chris...@charter.net> wrote in message news:<ucqccj...@corp.supernews.com>... > Agreed. But release the cards in such a way that the older players can > pick and choose (to some extent) what cards they want reprints of. An > example of this scheme was evidenced in FN where only the starters > contained reprints. I realize that there are going to be too many reprints > to really do this, but hopefully WW can find a way. It's like, exactly *how > many* sets are going to release _the same card_? I suspect all the stand-alones are going to have BD/MT, etc.. They aren't stand-alones without them, as those are cards that realistically must be in most decks in some #. > With the new cam > edition, that will make 5 sets that some cards were reprinted in. I don't > need another 40+ of a particular common that was reprinted in 4 sets > previously that I already have 100+ of. While I agree that it'd be nice not to have to accomodate new players, and thus print only new, interesting, fun, and balanced cards, that isn't reality. You can't not reprint BD/MT, the skill masters, HGs, deflection, GtU, and so forth. Because the newbies would be at a ridiculous disadvantage, unless there are new cards that outclass those.

Shadowdragon writes: >I just went through the Sabbat Wars set. There are only 77 new cards in >that set (including vampires). 77 new cards in a set of 437 cards. That >is pathetic. No, it's great! I can get Sabbat cards without paying $300 dollars a box. That was a great idea. My complaints with SW are related to too *few* reprints - they left out too many of the good Dementation cards (which, unlike other disciplines, I have no alternative for) and there's not enough vampires for the clans lacking starters. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Michael (Shadowdragon)" <mtbed...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<3CCD8BAF...@rogers.com>... > I just went through the Sabbat Wars set. There are only 77 new cards in > that set (including vampires). 77 new cards in a set of 437 cards. That > is pathetic. > >> > > > Shadowdragon Well excuse me for havung the audacity to have started playing well after the times at which Sabbat was an affordable expansion. Sorry, that i wanted some of theose cool cards that I kept seeing but would have to trade or sell a gold encrusted left testicle to get. All my fault (and players like me) that WW decided to reprint some extremly difficult to obtain cards and make them more accesible to us gamers. IMO, people that base comments purely on the collectibilty of the cards , well... I will leave you to fill in the blanks. I would hate to be accused of starting something. -Scrote