The troubles with new vampires...

I have already said in another thread what bothers me with the new vampires, but it went mostly unnoticed in the general remarks on the new expansion. Of course, there is G4 in itself, but well, what's done is done. But I find 2 things very annoying / worrying : 1) The old "formula" doesn't seem to stick anymore ! In other terms : the new vampires (no matter their group) seem much stronger than their predecessors. It looks like specials, titles and sometimes out-of-clan disciplines don't count as they used to !! Examples : - Ladislas Toth : 7 Cap, all 3 disciplines in sup + For ; would be the equal of Eugenio Estevez (cost one more, has DOM) but he also has 2 votes ! - Celeste Lamontagne. As good as Raven (and she was good !)costwise, except she has 2 specials (both cornercase, but it can make a difference) - Spider : 6-cap, 2 inf and 2 sup (all "in-clan" and useful) + "steal a weapon", and the oh-too-horrific blood burning condition (gotta block him, then survive...) - Mustafa, the Heir : 6-cap, 5 "points" of in-clan discipline + an out-of-clan, 2 votes, and a cornercase special weakness (older toreador, don't even have to play him with votes...) - Shawnda Dorrit : Monstruous !!! All these disciplines and potentially 3 votes... Yeah, I know, Sela was very good too. But her inf Cel was worse than Shawnda's inf Pot in most decks. And you don't have to make new monsters just because there were some old ones... - Guillermo : another 6-cap with 6 points of disciplines + a nifty special. Etc, etc. If the new vamps are going to get better and better, they will render the old ones obsolete, and that can't be good for competitive play. Another gut feeling about many of these "specials" is that they have a randomness I don't like : it can make your minion very powerful or unplayable depending on what is played at the table. And this I don't like a bit. 2) Let's remake the old combos all over again ! I was very, very disappointed to see that G4 didn't even have that one good argument : "they will open new combos, different from the previous ones". We could have gotten some new out-of-clan possibilities, reaching into new territories of inventiveness. Instead, what do we get ? - another !Ventrue with Obt (sup). - another !Brujah with Obt - 2 new Ravnos with Pot etc, etc. Why ??? :-( If you have to make vampires for the "old combos", one more in G3 couldn't be bad. One more !Tore with For would have at last allowed some new variants (2 just aren't enough). I don't think a 10-Cap friend for Quentin would have made the !Ventrue more fearsome voters than any other clan (say, Lasombra or Ventrue / Obf)... If it is deemed "unbalancing, why not go for a new combo ? Why wouldn't the G4 !Ventrue go for Obf, the G4 Ravnos get more Cel, etc ? Part of what made G3 interesting was the novelty : the Ventrue had less titles but more stealth, and the old ones still are played for that reason. Same goes for lots of cammies : the Tores had Masika, Anson... Printing clones of existing vamps is a waste of paper and money. Printing clones, but better costwise, is the worst thing that could happen to my favourite game in long-term. The more I see the more I think I'll stick to my decision concerning (not buying anymore) G4 ; but I'd like the game to stay challenging and balanced for the "old" vamps. Time will tell. What do YOU think ? -- Orpheus ----------------------- "...Hardestadt continued to drink, until he held nothing but dust in his arms and the burgeoning love of the slaughter in his heart"

Orpheus wrote: > - Ladislas Toth : 7 Cap, all 3 disciplines in sup + For ; would be the equal > of Eugenio Estevez (cost one more, has DOM) but he also has 2 votes ! 6 cap = 6 points 7 cap = 8 points This progression is a basic part of the forumla. Not new with Gehenna. Snip rest. Comparing apples to oranges is usually not productive. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Orpheus wrote: > 1) The old "formula" doesn't seem to stick anymore ! There was a formula in Jyhad. That formula changed in the original Sabbat expansion (to where out of clan disciplines cost half and some special abilties became much cheaper). When the game came back to life, the formula was adjusted to something in the middle of the two--out of clans no longer cost half, but some special abilities (like +1 bleed and +1 strength) cost less than they did in Jyhad. And vampires of different capacities got more stuff than in Jyhad. But the new set looks like it is using the same formula as used for Black Hand, Anarchs, and Camarilla. Picking some random vampires: -Petra (5) OBF, ANI, aus = (+5). 2 highly conditional advantages, apparently free (as 5 pointers get 5 points of stuff). Yeah, she seems a tad overpowered compared to, like, Amelia. But only by virtue of some highly conditional, if not corner case, specials. -Skidmark (5) OBF, FOR, pot, aus = (+6). Significant disadvnatge (-1). Up to code. -Guillermo Arsuaga (6) POR, CEL, for, aus (+6). Limited advantage. Slightly over the 6 points given to a 6 point vampire. Only very slightly. -Faha al-Zawab'a (4) pre, for, cel (+3). Up to code. -Hector Trelane (5) THA, AUS, nec, dom (+6). Minor advantage. Very significant disadvantage. Seems even. -Marcel de Breau (9) PRE, POT, CEL, pro, ani (+8). Arch Bishop (+1). +1 bleed (+1.5). Conitional advantage. +/-11 points on a 9 point guy. I think the current formula (i.e. Camarilla+) gives 9 and 10 point vampires capacity +2 points in stuff. Up to code. If you keep going, you'll find that most of the vampires in this set fit the standard introduced in Camarilla. If the new vampire designes are guilty of anything, it is being extra liberal in rounding down half points here and there to give vampires fun, but generally corner case, limited special abilities. > > In other terms : the new vampires (no matter their group) seem much stronger > than their predecessors. > > It looks like specials, titles and sometimes out-of-clan disciplines don't > count as they used to !! It looks to me like titles still cost .5 per vote; +1 bleed costs 1.5; out of clan disciplines still cost normal. Again, if anything, there seems to be liberty taken with rounding down the odd half point here and there spent on weird, corner case specials. > > Examples : > > - Ladislas Toth : 7 Cap, all 3 disciplines in sup + For ; would be the equal > of Eugenio Estevez (cost one more, has DOM) but he also has 2 votes ! 7 and 8 point guys get cap+1 point of stuff in Camarilla. Up to code. > - Celeste Lamontagne. As good as Raven (and she was good !)costwise, except > she has 2 specials (both cornercase, but it can make a difference) Again, if she is overpowered at all, it is by virtue of her having, like, 5.5 of abilities rounded down. Her two specials are either *very* corner case (werewolf) or farily limited. > - Spider : 6-cap, 2 inf and 2 sup (all "in-clan" and useful) + "steal a > weapon", and the oh-too-horrific blood burning condition (gotta block him, > then survive...) So he has 6 in disciplines, a limited special (+) and a limited disadvantage (-). Very even. > - Mustafa, the Heir : 6-cap, 5 "points" of in-clan discipline + an > out-of-clan, 2 votes, and a cornercase special weakness (older toreador, > don't even have to play him with votes...) So he has 6 in disciplines, a point in votes, and a balancing disadvantage. Not a likely to come up disadvantage, but certainly very debilitating if it does come up. Even. > - Shawnda Dorrit : Monstruous !!! All these disciplines and potentially 3 > votes... Yeah, I know, Sela was very good too. But her inf Cel was worse > than Shawnda's inf Pot in most decks. And you don't have to make new > monsters just because there were some old ones... Umm, wha? a 6 with 5 points of disciplines and possibly 3 votes (I suspect that Priscus is costed at less than 3 votes--probably 1 point instead of 1.5 votes. Yeah, usually it is 3 votes, but sometimes it is zero votes). > - Guillermo : another 6-cap with 6 points of disciplines + a nifty special. See above. gain, it looks like these vampires occasionally get a free conditional special abiltiy tacked on due to a rounding down of fractional point. I can live with this. > If the new vamps are going to get better and better, they will render the > old ones obsolete, and that can't be good for competitive play. The extra, minor special abilties here and there are hardly going to obsolete anyone. And they cartainly aren't going to obsolete the higly overpowered, pre-existing Sabbat vampires that didn't render anyone obsolete either. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Mr. President, ask not what your rest home can do for you. Ask what you can do for your rest home." -Elvis

"Orpheus" <orphe...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> wrote in message news:<40b3b375$0$6361$626a...@news.free.fr>... > 2) Let's remake the old combos all over again ! <snip argument> I had a similar observation. If the introduced G4s are any indication of what is to come, your statement holds. I must note though that it is not really possible to judge a whole group based on one or two (admittedly alarming) crypt cards. Having read the official reply to your post when I am posting this, I can't help but wonder whether this is comparing apples to oranges too? Bye, Daneel

> > 2) Let's remake the old combos all over again ! > > <snip argument> > > I had a similar observation. If the introduced G4s are any indication > of what is to come, your statement holds. I must note though that it > is not really possible to judge a whole group based on one or two > (admittedly alarming) crypt cards. Agreed, we don't know anymore yet. One more reason to say we don't like the trend. But then, if they make isolated combos, they won't be very useful, will they ? We all know that 3-4 vamps minimum are necessary to base a deck on some disciplines. I wasn't aware that the formula changed with the capacity. Still, some vampires in my list seem too good to be true. I'll admit Peter's theory that on the whole they "forgot" half a point here and there. It can make a difference, though. > Having read the official reply to your post when I am posting this, I > can't help but wonder whether this is comparing apples to oranges too? You too ? Well, LSJ ? Maybe you like that old Pink Floyd song ? Orpheus, more bananas.

Orpheus wrote: > I wasn't aware that the formula changed with the capacity. Still, some > vampires in my list seem too good to be true. I'll admit Peter's theory that > on the whole they "forgot" half a point here and there. It can make a > difference, though. Yeah, as far as I am aware, the "current" formula (from CE on) is something like: Cap 2-4: capacity-1 points of stuff. Cap 5-6: capacity points of stuff. Cap 7-8: capacity +1 points of stuff Cap 9-10: capacity +2 points of stuff Disciplines cost 1 point per level. Votes cost .5 per vote. Priscus seems to cost 1 point. +1 bleed or +1 strength costs 1.5 +1 stealth or +1 intercept costs somewhere in 1-2 point range In the Jyhad set, the costs seemed to be similar, but: Cap 5-8: capacity of stuff Cap 9-10: capacity +1 points of stuff +1 bleed and +1 strength cost 2 points. In the Sabbat set, the costs were similar to the Jyhad set, except: +1 bleed and +1 strength seemed to cost 1 point. Out of clan disciplines seemed to cost half as much as in clan. So certainly, many CE+ vampires are going to totally outclass similar Jyhad vampires (but in turn, they might be outclassed by Sabbat vampires)--for instance, most of the mid capacity Toreador from the Jyhad set are awful (Adrianne and the two 7 pointers are total trash) compared to anything anywhere. It looks, again, as if the Gehenna vampires are *slightly* over the power curve in some instances, but this is mostly due to the designers being willing to add corner case specials for free. But they have been doing that since CE anyway. I don't think this is going to obsolete anything (well, except the very under the curve Jyhad vampires, like Adrianne and Zack North). Overall, I don't think there are any vampires in the set that are over the top in the way that Jimmy Dunn, Ian Forestall, or even Anvil are. But there also don't seem to be any way under the curve vampires like poor ol' Judah and Nakova. I don't think it is problematic that they are willing to push vampires up a little bit by virtue of adding "free" special abilties that are fairly limited--I mean, yeah, if 4 point vampires started having 2 superior disciplines and no disadvantage across the board, that would be a problem. But that Petra gets aggrivated hand damaga against theBaali for free doesn't strike me as a problem at all. [ quoted text not captured ]

>But I find 2 things very annoying / worrying : > >1) The old "formula" doesn't seem to stick anymore ! > >In other terms : the new vampires (no matter their group) seem much stronger >than their predecessors. > >Examples : > >- Ladislas Toth : 7 Cap, all 3 disciplines in sup + For ; would be the equal >of Eugenio Estevez (cost one more, has DOM) but he also has 2 votes ! >- Celeste Lamontagne. As good as Raven (and she was good !)costwise, except >she has 2 specials (both cornercase, but it can make a difference) >- Spider : 6-cap, 2 inf and 2 sup (all "in-clan" and useful) + "steal a >weapon", and the oh-too-horrific blood burning condition (gotta block him, >then survive...) Not really inclan. The disad is at least significant. >- Mustafa, the Heir : 6-cap, 5 "points" of in-clan discipline + an >out-of-clan, 2 votes, and a cornercase special weakness (older toreador, >don't even have to play him with votes...) >- Shawnda Dorrit : Monstruous !!! All these disciplines and potentially 3 >votes... Yeah, I know, Sela was very good too. But her inf Cel was worse >than Shawnda's inf Pot in most decks. And you don't have to make new >monsters just because there were some old ones... Lots of disciplines don't correlate to being a stronger vampire. Mustafa is the only one who might be a monster out of that group. >- Guillermo : another 6-cap with 6 points of disciplines + a nifty special. > >Etc, etc. And, yet, you don't name some of the vampires I consider strongest in the set, vampires like Giangaleazzo and Sascha Vykos. >2) Let's remake the old combos all over again ! > >I was very, very disappointed to see that G4 didn't even have that one good >argument : "they will open new combos, different from the previous ones". > >We could have gotten some new out-of-clan possibilities, reaching into new >territories of inventiveness. Instead, what do we get ? > >- another !Ventrue with Obt (sup). This seemed counterproductive to me, too. Really should have been group 3 to make !Ventrue better. (While probably no longer, there were considered the worst clan in the game at one time.) >- another !Brujah with Obt >- 2 new Ravnos with Pot > >etc, etc. > >Why ??? :-( Those are their stats in the source material? >If you have to make vampires for the "old combos", one more in G3 couldn't >be bad. One more !Tore with For would have at last allowed some new variants >(2 just aren't enough). I don't think a 10-Cap friend for Quentin would have >made the !Ventrue more fearsome voters than any other clan (say, Lasombra or >Ventrue / Obf)... Yeah, I fail to see the fear that some have expressed in elevating something only partially towards the best the game has to offer. >What do YOU think ? Going back to your first complaint, I think that it's a good thing that we get good vampires. I don't find anything overpowered about the new batch. Sure, collectively, they seem strong because they are. Stronger, anyway. Stronger than the usual mediocre and crap vampires we've been getting a lot of. The fact of the matter is that there's never been good balance between vampires. Rather than waste cardboard, might as well make ones that will actually see play or, more accurately since all sorts of stuff sees play, that will have a tournament level impact.

> >But I find 2 things very annoying / worrying : > > > >1) The old "formula" doesn't seem to stick anymore ! > > > >In other terms : the new vampires (no matter their group) seem much stronger > >than their predecessors. > > > >Examples : > > > >- Ladislas Toth : 7 Cap, all 3 disciplines in sup + For ; would be the equal > >of Eugenio Estevez (cost one more, has DOM) but he also has 2 votes ! > >- Celeste Lamontagne. As good as Raven (and she was good !)costwise, except > >she has 2 specials (both cornercase, but it can make a difference) > >- Spider : 6-cap, 2 inf and 2 sup (all "in-clan" and useful) + "steal a > >weapon", and the oh-too-horrific blood burning condition (gotta block him, > >then survive...) > > Not really inclan. The disad is at least significant. Yes, but can be countered. I had a game yesterday where Spider began a round of combat at 0 blood, and ended up sending his opponent in torpor (the Path of Feral Heart was in game) and gaining one blood (Sociopath)... ;-) > > >- Mustafa, the Heir : 6-cap, 5 "points" of in-clan discipline + an > >out-of-clan, 2 votes, and a cornercase special weakness (older toreador, > >don't even have to play him with votes...) > >- Shawnda Dorrit : Monstruous !!! All these disciplines and potentially 3 > >votes... Yeah, I know, Sela was very good too. But her inf Cel was worse > >than Shawnda's inf Pot in most decks. And you don't have to make new > >monsters just because there were some old ones... > > Lots of disciplines don't correlate to being a stronger vampire. Mustafa is > the only one who might be a monster out of that group. And Count Germaine ? > >- Guillermo : another 6-cap with 6 points of disciplines + a nifty special. > > > >Etc, etc. > > And, yet, you don't name some of the vampires I consider strongest in the set, > vampires like Giangaleazzo and Sascha Vykos. Sure ! I don't name them all. Giangaleazzo is a monster, just it has already been mentioned when he was previewed. Sascha I wouldn't know about : I hate that clan... Seriously, I wouldn't list them all, OMMV, but you got my point. > >2) Let's remake the old combos all over again ! > > > >I was very, very disappointed to see that G4 didn't even have that one good > >argument : "they will open new combos, different from the previous ones". > > > >We could have gotten some new out-of-clan possibilities, reaching into new > >territories of inventiveness. Instead, what do we get ? > > > >- another !Ventrue with Obt (sup). > > This seemed counterproductive to me, too. Really should have been group 3 to > make !Ventrue better. (While probably no longer, there were considered the > worst clan in the game at one time.) Agreed, this clan now wins games and tournies. Having a new voter wouldn't have overbalanced them, though. > >- another !Brujah with Obt > >- 2 new Ravnos with Pot > > > >etc, etc. > > > >Why ??? :-( > > Those are their stats in the source material? LOL. The stats and the source have always been very weakly linked. Just read the Clan Novels and take a look at Lucita and Talley and you'll get my meaning... I do acknowkledge the betterment with Advanced Becket, though. [ quoted text not captured ] I'm all for : less wallpaper vamps. I'm all against a rise in individual power of the vamps. But it seems that, as much as players may at least moderate my initial thoughts on that matter, many more (not only here) agree with my second point. ANd I regret that it could be the case : complaining is a thing I do in the hope of seeing ammeliorations, not just for the sake of it ! -- Solaris Nocturnus, Orpheus