rules quiz 2000

OK.. I have a few questions that need some ruling on.... 1) If a vampire plays effects from cards like Carrion Crows, DOTB, Weather Control or Dawn Operation in combat, do their respective effects of the cards still resolve if combat ends prematurely due to Strike: Combats Ends or something bizarre like Illusions of the Kindred? 2) If Blood to Water (thau) is played during combat, I assume that it's effects are resolved *before* any minion strikes? The card says that if you are a vampire you must lose blood. If the target vampire does not have enough blood does it go to zero blood, or is it burned? 3) If Theft of Vitae (thau) is played as a strike, is the theft resolved previous to any damage effects of simultaneous strikes, after, or at the same time? 4) If a vampire going to torpor plays Unflinching Persistance (fort) to stop itself from going to torpor, is it then allowed to play other combat cards such a Taste of Vitae or Amaranth? If the vampire is sent to torpor again by further combat strikes, is combat over, or is the target protected still by the same copy of UP already played? 5) I heard somewhere that if a vmapire takes over it's capacity again in normal damage it is burned, although in retrospect I cannot find any trace of this rule in the main VtES rule corpus. Is this a optional rule I have picked up, and if so can anyone identify the source? 6) Can someone confirm that you can only play Out-of-Turn masters on other player's turns - i.e. that it should be read literally rather than simply out-of-sequence 7) Is it possible through any means to prevent the 1 damage left after a Flesh of Marble is played? 8) Can a minion strike with two or more different weapons in a single combat round, assuming that additional strikes are available (via cel or obt)? 9) If damage is dealt to a vampire , but the vampire is not sent to torpor or burned, then both vampires in the combat have the opportunity to play additional strikes. If the non-lethal damage from the primary strike is not prevented before the additional strikes are played, then once these further strikes *are* played, can this prior damage still be prevented? 10) Is Cat's Guidance (ani) inferior - untap this blocking vampire - played and replaced before or after combat, or can you choose? 11) Can additional Cloak of the Gathering (obf) sup cards be played on the same action be different vampires? 12) Since the Sengir Dagger's damage is worded '+2 agg hand damage', and Bastard Sword and Bang Nakh are worded '+2 hand damage' then can these weapons be used in conjunction with all cards that increase hand damage, or not? 13) Does Strike: Combat Ends: break the combat loops created by Unflinching Persistence and Trap? 14) When moving equipment between minions, the equipping minion taps. However, does the previous owner remain untapped? Can this action be attempted if the original owner is tapped? Can such an action be attempted for retainers as well as equipment? 15) If a unique retainer is brought into play to contest another copy already on the table, is it simply the two retainers that are considered contested, or are the owning vamps also contested? 16) Can someone please clarify the differences between Controlled, Uncontrolled, and Ready? Thanks in advance for people's responses. I'm sure I'll think of some more in due course... Mike Nudd mi...@vekn.org.uk Probationary VEKN Prince of London

Mike Nudd wrote: > > OK.. I have a few questions that need some ruling on.... > > 1) If a vampire plays effects from cards like Carrion Crows, DOTB, > Weather Control or Dawn Operation in combat, do their respective > effects of the cards still resolve if combat ends prematurely due to > Strike: Combats Ends or something bizarre like Illusions of the > Kindred? Depends. An effect won't resolve if its resolution-time is not reached. Dawn Operation is not played in combat. It is an action modifier and is played before combat. Its effect will only apply to the combat that results from a block - for however long that combat lasts. Effects that happen during strike resolution (Carrion Crows, Wolf Companion, etc.) do not resolve if combat ends prior to that, like a Strike: Combat Ends or an Illusions of the Kindred. Effects that happen at the end of a round (DotB's damage) will happen at the end of the round, regardless of how the round ends. Effects that happen at the beginning of a round ("before range") will happen, unless combat is somehow avoided altogether (which is not interesting, since that would mean that the card that generated the effect was never played in the first place). > 2) If Blood to Water (thau) is played during combat, I assume that > it's effects are resolved *before* any minion strikes? The card says Correct. It resolves when played. > that if you are a vampire you must lose blood. If the target vampire > does not have enough blood does it go to zero blood, or is it burned? He goes to zero blood, but does not suffer any other effect (from the Blood to Water). > 3) If Theft of Vitae (thau) is played as a strike, is the theft > resolved previous to any damage effects of simultaneous strikes, > after, or at the same time? At the same time damage is applied, but prior to preventing damage or healing damage etc. [6.4.3] > 4) If a vampire going to torpor plays Unflinching Persistance (fort) > to stop itself from going to torpor, is it then allowed to play other > combat cards such a Taste of Vitae or Amaranth? If the vampire is sent Yes. > to torpor again by further combat strikes, is combat over, or is the > target protected still by the same copy of UP already played? The target remains protected from torpor (but not from being burned) for the duration of the combat. > 5) I heard somewhere that if a vmapire takes over it's capacity again > in normal damage it is burned, although in retrospect I cannot find > any trace of this rule in the main VtES rule corpus. Is this a > optional rule I have picked up, and if so can anyone identify the > source? It is not an official rule. > 6) Can someone confirm that you can only play Out-of-Turn masters on > other player's turns - i.e. that it should be read literally rather > than simply out-of-sequence Confirmed. [1.6.2.3] > 7) Is it possible through any means to prevent the 1 damage left after > a Flesh of Marble is played? No. Flesh of Marble's effect prevents operates only on the unprevented damage. > 8) Can a minion strike with two or more different weapons in a single > combat round, assuming that additional strikes are available (via cel > or obt)? Yes. > 9) If damage is dealt to a vampire , but the vampire is not sent to > torpor or burned, then both vampires in the combat have the > opportunity to play additional strikes. If the non-lethal damage from > the primary strike is not prevented before the additional strikes are > played, then once these further strikes *are* played, can this prior > damage still be prevented? No. Damage cannot be retroactively prevented (after being healed or whatever). > 10) Is Cat's Guidance (ani) inferior - untap this blocking vampire - > played and replaced before or after combat, or can you choose? After combat. > 11) Can additional Cloak of the Gathering (obf) sup cards be played on > the same action be different vampires? Yes. > 12) Since the Sengir Dagger's damage is worded '+2 agg hand damage', > and Bastard Sword and Bang Nakh are worded '+2 hand damage' then can > these weapons be used in conjunction with all cards that increase hand > damage, or not? Not. They cannot be used with Scorpion Sting, for instance, since that strike doesn't say "use your melee weapon at +1 damage". They will benefit from all non-strike effects that increase "hand damage" (i.e., that increase "strength"), such as Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, Zack North's ability, etc. And they will benefit from strike that allow the use of melee weapons at increased damage, such as Lucky Blow, Undead Strength, etc. > 13) Does Strike: Combat Ends: break the combat loops created by > Unflinching Persistence and Trap? Yes. Undead Persistence and Trap merely provide a single press in each round of combat - they do not have any other mechanism for sustaining combat (unless you count UP's torpor avoidance). > 14) When moving equipment between minions, the equipping minion taps. > However, does the previous owner remain untapped? Can this action be Yes, if he was untapped to begin with. > attempted if the original owner is tapped? Can such an action be Yes. > attempted for retainers as well as equipment? No. Retainers, unlike equipment, are loyal. [6.1] > 15) If a unique retainer is brought into play to contest another copy > already on the table, is it simply the two retainers that are > considered contested, or are the owning vamps also contested? Just the retainers. > 16) Can someone please clarify the differences between Controlled, > Uncontrolled, and Ready? For vampires: Controlled: face-up (and not in the ash heap). That is: a vampire in the Ready Region or in the Torpor Region. Uncontrolled: a vampire in the uncontrolled region. Ready: a controlled vampire who is not in Torpor. See section 2.3 -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Mike Nudd wrote: > 1) If a vampire plays effects from cards like Carrion Crows, DOTB, > Weather Control or Dawn Operation in combat, do their respective > effects of the cards still resolve if combat ends prematurely due to > Strike: Combats Ends or something bizarre like Illusions of the > Kindred? Dawn Op is not a combat card. Carrion Crows resolves in strike resolution, like Wolf Companion - so would be circumvented by IotK or S:CE. DotB would resolve in both instances - the damage would be done, since you have got to the end of a combat. Weather Control would resolve in both instances - for S:CE, the before range has already gone. LSJ, in a recent discussion, confirmed that if there is still damage to be done in the Before Range step, it resolves - even if you tap the Elysium, say, so I assume it works for IotK as well. > > 2) If Blood to Water (thau) is played during combat, It is. > I assume that > it's effects are resolved *before* any minion strikes? Yes. It is resolved when it is played. > The card says > that if you are a vampire you must lose blood. Burn blood, yes. > If the target vampire > does not have enough blood does it go to zero blood, or is it burned? > It goes to zero blood. The "otherwise" refers to the case of "if the opponent is *not* a vampire". > 3) If Theft of Vitae (thau) is played as a strike, is the theft > resolved previous to any damage effects of simultaneous strikes, > after, or at the same time? The blood gained is got before you do damage prevention, or damage resolution. And any excess drains off at that time. So, if I am at full and steal one blood from you and you hit for hands - I get the blood for one, excess drains off, then I take your hands - and end up at 1 under capacity. > > 4) If a vampire going to torpor plays Unflinching Persistance (fort) > to stop itself from going to torpor, is it then allowed to play other > combat cards such a Taste of Vitae or Amaranth? Yes, because then the vampire is not *currently* going to torpor. > If the vampire is sent > to torpor again by further combat strikes, is combat over, The vampire only goes to torpor at end of combat, or after 3 rounds with no cards (as per text). > or is the > target protected still by the same copy of UP already played? > Yes. > 5) I heard somewhere that if a vmapire takes over it's capacity again > in normal damage it is burned, although in retrospect I cannot find > any trace of this rule in the main VtES rule corpus. The only ways to burn a vampire are through aggravated damage, or diablerie - or specific card text. > Is this a > optional rule I have picked up, and if so can anyone identify the > source? Optional rule. No source I know of. > > 6) Can someone confirm that you can only play Out-of-Turn masters on > other player's turns - i.e. that it should be read literally rather > than simply out-of-sequence It means you simply do not play them during your turn. > > 7) Is it possible through any means to prevent the 1 damage left after > a Flesh of Marble is played? No. It says "not otherwise prevented". You give up the right to prevent it through the playing of Flesh of Marble. > > 8) Can a minion strike with two or more different weapons in a single > combat round, assuming that additional strikes are available (via cel > or obt)? Yes. But they could not maneuver with both of them (e.g. a Zip Gun and an Assault Rifle) since they would both commit you to striking in the first strike phase. But you could maneuver with one, fire with it and then fire with the other on an additional strike (e.g. I maneuver with Zip Gun, fire and then Additional Strike you with Ivory Bow) - or just fire with both, no maneuvering shenanigans at all - assuming additional strikes available. > > 9) If damage is dealt to a vampire , but the vampire is not sent to > torpor or burned, then both vampires in the combat have the > opportunity to play additional strikes. Correct. >If the non-lethal damage from > the primary strike is not prevented before the additional strikes are > played, then once these further strikes *are* played, can this prior > damage still be prevented? > No. You have passed through the damage prevention phase for that damage, and it has already resolved. You cannot retroactively prevent damage. > 10) Is Cat's Guidance (ani) inferior - untap this blocking vampire - > played and replaced before or after combat, or can you choose? After the combat, only. > > 11) Can additional Cloak of the Gathering (obf) sup cards be played on > the same action be different vampires? > Yes, but only one by each different vampire of course. > 12) Since the Sengir Dagger's damage is worded '+2 agg hand damage', > and Bastard Sword and Bang Nakh are worded '+2 hand damage' then can > these weapons be used in conjunction with all cards that increase hand > damage, or not? They can, yes. They take your current hand damage, add 2 to it and then deal that much weapon damage as a weapon strike. (i.e. not a hand strike, for the purposes of IG or Claw) > > 13) Does Strike: Combat Ends: break the combat loops created by > Unflinching Persistence and Trap? > Sort of. Trap only provides automatic presses, and combat ends circumvents that. When you play S:CE to UP, combat ends and the opponent goes to torpor (card text). > 14) When moving equipment between minions, the equipping minion taps. > However, does the previous owner remain untapped? Yes. > Can this action be > attempted if the original owner is tapped? Yes. > Can such an action be > attempted for retainers as well as equipment? > No. > 15) If a unique retainer is brought into play to contest another copy > already on the table, is it simply the two retainers that are > considered contested, or are the owning vamps also contested? > Just the retainer. > 16) Can someone please clarify the differences between Controlled, > Uncontrolled, and Ready? Uncontrolled are the vampires phase down in front of you, which you can transfer to. Controlled vampires are the vampires you have brought into play - which must also not be contested, or burned or whatever. Ready means the vampires you have brought into play - which are *also* not in torpor i.e. under normal circumstances, they would be "ready" to take an arbitrary action. -- James Coupe

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Mike Nudd wrote: > 8) Can a minion strike with two or more different weapons in a single > combat round, assuming that additional strikes are available (via cel > or obt)? if by "obt" you mean obtenebration, remember that the only card which provides an additional strike from that discipline is superior Arms of the Abyss, which reads "Strike: Dodge with an additional strike." Thus it only provides one non-dodge strike, so you can only use one weapon in the round you play Arms of the Abyss.

>> 1) If a vampire plays effects from cards like Carrion Crows, DOTB, >> Weather Control or Dawn Operation in combat, do their respective >> effects of the cards still resolve if combat ends prematurely due to >> Strike: Combats Ends or something bizarre like Illusions of the >> Kindred? > >Depends. >An effect won't resolve if its resolution-time is not reached. > >Dawn Operation is not played in combat. It is an action modifier >and is played before combat. Its effect will only apply to the >combat that results from a block - for however long that combat >lasts. So yes, the effects from Dawn Op will still occur, right? >Effects that happen during strike resolution (Carrion Crows, Wolf >Companion, etc.) do not resolve if combat ends prior to that, like >a Strike: Combat Ends or an Illusions of the Kindred. So effectively anything that would apply before (or despite of) strike resolution would still take effect? I can't think of any cards that would violate that statement... >> 4) If a vampire going to torpor plays Unflinching Persistance (fort) >> to stop itself from going to torpor, is it then allowed to play other >> combat cards such a Taste of Vitae or Amaranth? If the vampire is sent > >Yes. However, if Amaranth is played, then the opposing vampire would be burned, and then combat would end anyway, sending the first vampire to torpor. The card can still be played? >> 13) Does Strike: Combat Ends: break the combat loops created by >> Unflinching Persistence and Trap? > >Yes. Undead Persistence and Trap merely provide a single press in >each round of combat - they do not have any other mechanism for >sustaining combat (unless you count UP's torpor avoidance). If the vampire who played UP is damaged again in this same combat, is he sent to torpor, or does the same UP continue to protect him? Can you use a normal press to end the Trap combat loop? 14) Are there any circumstances at all under which you can gain a VP for ousting your predator? 15) Can the effect of Heidelberg - swap blood, equipment and retainers - be utilised during combat before a vampire goes to torpor? 16) I understand that the errata of Thoughts Betrayed only apply to strike cards, rather than *all* combat cards. Are cards that augment strikes (e.g. Wolf Claws) still permissable? 17) Regarding blood hunts, would I be correct in saying the vampire responsible for committing diableries is burned unless at least 1 vote can be put forward against the blood hunt? The result of a tie means that the vampire survives? Thanks again for all your help. ---- [ quoted text not captured ]

Mike Nudd wrote: > >> 1) If a vampire plays effects from cards like Carrion Crows, DOTB, > >> Weather Control or Dawn Operation in combat, do their respective > >> effects of the cards still resolve if combat ends prematurely due to > >> Strike: Combats Ends or something bizarre like Illusions of the > >> Kindred? > > > >Depends. > >An effect won't resolve if its resolution-time is not reached. > > > >Dawn Operation is not played in combat. It is an action modifier > >and is played before combat. Its effect will only apply to the > >combat that results from a block - for however long that combat > >lasts. > > So yes, the effects from Dawn Op will still occur, right? Yes. > >Effects that happen during strike resolution (Carrion Crows, Wolf > >Companion, etc.) do not resolve if combat ends prior to that, like > >a Strike: Combat Ends or an Illusions of the Kindred. > > So effectively anything that would apply before (or despite of) strike > resolution would still take effect? I can't think of any cards that > would violate that statement... Yes, if we're just talking about S:CE. If you're talking about ending combat at the beginning of a round (before range is determined), as with Illusions of the Kindred, then the "anything" would have to applied at the beginning of a round as well (and would have to be played before the Illusions of the Kindred is played). > >> 4) If a vampire going to torpor plays Unflinching Persistance (fort) > >> to stop itself from going to torpor, is it then allowed to play other > >> combat cards such a Taste of Vitae or Amaranth? If the vampire is sent > > > >Yes. > > However, if Amaranth is played, then the opposing vampire would be > burned, and then combat would end anyway, sending the first vampire to > torpor. The card can still be played? Yes. It (Amaranth) doesn't care if the vampire will be going to torpor later, only that he isn't going to torpor right now. > >> 13) Does Strike: Combat Ends: break the combat loops created by > >> Unflinching Persistence and Trap? > > > >Yes. Undead Persistence and Trap merely provide a single press in > >each round of combat - they do not have any other mechanism for > >sustaining combat (unless you count UP's torpor avoidance). > > If the vampire who played UP is damaged again in this same combat, is > he sent to torpor, or does the same UP continue to protect him? The same UP protects him from torpor for the duration of combat. (It doesn't protect him from being burned, however.) > Can you use a normal press to end the Trap combat loop? Yes, since it (the trap) just provides a single press to continue each round. > 14) Are there any circumstances at all under which you can gain a VP > for ousting your predator? Only if he's also your prey (i.e., just the two of you remain), or if some effect grants you the VP that would have otherwise been gained by your predator's predator (Life Boon, for instance). > 15) Can the effect of Heidelberg - swap blood, equipment and retainers > - be utilised during combat before a vampire goes to torpor? No. It cannot be used during combat at all. It cannot be used during any part of an action, including combats. (errata). > 16) I understand that the errata of Thoughts Betrayed only apply to > strike cards, rather than *all* combat cards. Are cards that augment > strikes (e.g. Wolf Claws) still permissable? Yes. > 17) Regarding blood hunts, would I be correct in saying the vampire > responsible for committing diableries is burned unless at least 1 vote > can be put forward against the blood hunt? The result of a tie means > that the vampire survives? The diabolist (the vampire responsible for committing diablerie) is *not* burned unless at least one vote can be put forward *in favor* of the blood hunt, since the result of a tie means that the vampire survives. [ quoted text not captured ]