YO! Prince of Watford.

I _know_ that that these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3148047836&category=33055 were legitimatly earned, but a prince selling prize cards doesn't look good does it? You could have at least diguised your ebay handle. This is in no way as bad as TcardsUK selling 5 Lambach's Legion tournament kits for £4.95 each- the ramifications of that are just too ridiculous to contemplate, but even so. Matt Green -Archon?

> I _know_ that that these: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3148047836&category=330 55 > > were legitimatly earned, but a prince selling prize cards doesn't look > good does it? You could have at least diguised your ebay handle. If he got them personnaly in a non-prince way, he should have no reason to disguise himself. But to someone who isn't aware of the way he got the cards, it sure could look bad. > This is in no way as bad as TcardsUK selling 5 Lambach's Legion > tournament kits for £4.95 each- the ramifications of that are just too > ridiculous to contemplate, but even so. Now, this IS bad. It also goes toward the number of flaws in the current prize system. Prize are prize, and shouldn't IMHO be acquired any other way ; or I'm missing something here ! The goal of prize support is to entice people to come to the tournaments, and therefore promote the game, right ? Anyone making profit on these without having earned the cards in tournament is obviously a big problem. As a matter of facts, I even think no one should be able to order the cards online for a definite price (excluding e-bay or similar, of course, I'm talking regular distribution here). Of course, the way things should be handled, or other problems arising from this, are a discussion for the Conclave list. But the fact you are mentionning looks like a fatal and obvious flaw of this system to me. Yours, Orpheus, Prince of Marseille.

On 5 Oct 2003 14:12:47 -0700, mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote: >This is in no way as bad as TcardsUK selling 5 Lambach's Legion >tournament kits for £4.95 each- the ramifications of that are just too >ridiculous to contemplate, but even so. £9.99, actually. It is simply another box of stuff to the distributors. There job is to sell the boxes of stuff. They are doing so.

mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote in message news:<a346f9cb.0310...@posting.google.com>... > I _know_ that that these: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3148047836&category=33055 > > were legitimatly earned, but a prince selling prize cards doesn't look > good does it? You could have at least diguised your ebay handle. True, but to be honest there's something sneaky about having lots of user names. I've got nothing to hide (as you say, these were legitimately earned). I'm testing the water for a big clearout in a few weeks. I am a bit short of cash and Xmas is coming up. It's not as if I advertise myself on eBay as a Prince or in anyway better than the next seller or anything. It's just a sale of cards from one person to the highest bidder. > This is in no way as bad as TcardsUK selling 5 Lambach's Legion > tournament kits for £4.95 each- the ramifications of that are just too > ridiculous to contemplate, but even so. Funny how the price jumped up after the first lot ran out. The question is, how come he was allowed to order so many in the first place? I know quite a few guys who bought one or two packs each off Tcards, so the whole Storyline thing was somewhat devalued. In fact, I think attendance at the events in the UK suffered as a result (mine was a bit lower than usual for sure). White Wolf are aware, though. Dave

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<l441ovc5cg2q2rqld...@4ax.com>... > On 5 Oct 2003 14:12:47 -0700, mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote: > > >This is in no way as bad as TcardsUK selling 5 Lambach's Legion > >tournament kits for £4.95 each- the ramifications of that are just too > >ridiculous to contemplate, but even so. > > > £9.99, actually. > They've doubled their prices since they sold the first batch. They are still selling something they should not be, that they presumably got for free and that has a super-high secondary market value for a very small amount of money relative its actual worth. > > It is simply another box of stuff to the distributors. > There job is to sell the boxes of stuff. > They are doing so. Which begs the question: why are they being sent these particular boxes of stuff that are not intended for sale? And yes, they are doing a great job of selling them. I'm sure they are flying off the shelves. Matt Green

On 6 Oct 2003 04:29:49 -0700, mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote: >> >This is in no way as bad as TcardsUK selling 5 Lambach's Legion >> >tournament kits for £4.95 each- the ramifications of that are just too >> >ridiculous to contemplate, but even so. >> £9.99, actually. > >They've doubled their prices since they sold the first batch. They are >still selling something they should not be, that they presumably got >for free and that has a super-high secondary market value for a very >small amount of money relative its actual worth. AFAIK, all of the prize support for Lambach's Legion had to be purchased from a distributor. That was the point of moving to this distribution system. The hoped for effect is to show them and the stores how popular the game is (or isn't). >> It is simply another box of stuff to the distributors. >> There job is to sell the boxes of stuff. >> They are doing so. >Which begs the question: why are they being sent these particular >boxes of stuff that are not intended for sale? They were intended for sale, to the stores running events. Evidently there were distributors that overestimated their areas presence in the game. Holding more storyline events was the answer, not criticizing the people in it for money (ie, the distributors and stores). >And yes, they are doing a great job of selling them. I'm sure they are >flying off the shelves. Indeed. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

<snipped> > >They've doubled their prices since they sold the first batch. They are > >still selling something they should not be, that they presumably got > >for free and that has a super-high secondary market value for a very > >small amount of money relative its actual worth. > > AFAIK, all of the prize support for Lambach's Legion had to be > purchased from a distributor. > > That was the point of moving to this distribution system. > > The hoped for effect is to show them and the stores how popular the > game is (or isn't). > Yes, and thanks to that and the distributor we have in spain, almost NONE of the storylines had the prize support. Distrimagen is rather reluctant even for the EC2003, and decided to aid us with some support for the prizes, but haven't defined what- but that's all. When one of the local stores put themeselves in contact with distrimagen, the following conversation took place: DM: How many Black Hand boxes do you want? Store: Will they come sooner or later than Lambach's prize support? FYI: THIS WEEK I'll recieve the Eye of Hazimel for the Storyline: Eye of Hazimel that took place in barcelona </rant> > >> It is simply another box of stuff to the distributors. > >> There job is to sell the boxes of stuff. > >> They are doing so. Not sure of that in spain. I suppose they earn more money translating, editing and selling Vampire books than just acting as distributors for sealed boxes. [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<v134ovge69pbblqfp...@4ax.com>... > >Which begs the question: why are they being sent these particular > >boxes of stuff that are not intended for sale? > > They were intended for sale, to the stores running events. Which immediately assumes stores are running events. Which is true for only one of the six storyline events (Southampton- and that was run outside the correct timeframe to be considered) held in the UK. The other events were not run in, sponsered by or had any visable connection with stores at all. > Evidently there were distributors that overestimated their areas > presence in the game. Or saw a quick profit and sold the kits to whoever for whatever reason. > Holding more storyline events was the answer, not criticizing the people in > it for money (ie, the distributors and stores). > The people in it for the money are hindering the situation, not helping it in this case. Less people are likely to attend of organise tournaments if they know they can simply BUY the entire prize structure at a small cost. Not only that, but in this case purchasers can forego the hassle of actually enticing more people into playing by buying 10 Lambach's Legion cards and then, THEN, trading those cards away for a massive profit. All because a distributor can't be trusted to sell a box to the right person. To suggest that people need to organise more tournaments to prevent the kits being sold off is insane. Matt Green -at least they didn't ebay them i suppose.

(mgreen02) wrote: > The people in it for the money are hindering the situation, not > helping it in this case. Quite. The storyline in Battle Creek, MI had two, count 'em, TWO whole packs of cards for the prize support in addition to some crappy novels by WW that nobody wanted. This for a tournament that I had to pay $5 to participate in. > To suggest that people need to organise more tournaments to prevent > the kits being sold off is insane. Indeed. My experience has convinced me of three things: 1) Never return to the store in Battle Creek 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to play in unless it's held at a major convention. I now know why every one is selling off their collection. At this rate, it won't be long before I join them. Regards, Noal

> > The people in it for the money are hindering the situation, not > > helping it in this case. > > Quite. The storyline in Battle Creek, MI had two, count 'em, TWO whole > packs of cards for the prize support in addition to some crappy novels > by WW that nobody wanted. This for a tournament that I had to pay $5 > to participate in. [first, I don't want the actual argument between Noal and me to turn this thread into a flame war ; so I'll just state my Pov calmly and expect him to behave the same ; but I couldn't let the things he said go by unanswered, even if the troll-bait seems obvious] So the tournament where you were had some trouble with prize. The 2 packs of cards (making them 20 of each) and books were standard przie support for that storyline, for various reasons discussed on Princes list. The situation lately maybe hasn't been for the best. But some tournies out there went wonderfully well, including prizewise. No matter : the goal of a tournament is to have fun, and if the mood was good it should be enough. Now, if it isn't, maybe the reasons aren't as easy to pinpoint as what you suggest. Let's have a look... > > To suggest that people need to organise more tournaments to prevent > > the kits being sold off is insane. > > Indeed. My experience has convinced me of three things: > 1) Never return to the store in Battle Creek Some stores do stink. Did the Prince depend on the store (for prize, is it the only place where they can play, was he able to buy prize with entry fee at a favoured prize, etc.) ? > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. Are you on the Conclave list ? Do you have all the elements to judge of the inadequacy of WW's handling of Prize Support ? Do you propose any solutions ? Are you aware that despite all the problems, real or imaginary, some Princes still manage good prize support for every single tournament ? > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to > play in unless it's held at a major convention. Why ? Because you want more prize ? Do you think these are totally related ? And are you sure the mood of the tournament will be better in a convention than in some small events ? In my experience, this isn't always the case. And you could be surprised of what some "normal" tournaments can manage with prize even without WW's help. Now, of course, being on good terms with the local shops can't harm. > I now know why every one is selling off their collection. I doubt it. Some very different people have been selling their collections, and most of them invoked very different reasons. The one I saw more frequently were : the groupings, the too numerous (or sometimes erratic) rulings or erratas, the mood of the tournaments, getting ruined by deals... I saw Princes resigning from their place, sometimes because of inadequacy between their view and WW's politics, but most of them also said that they would keep playing, and not sell their collection. So I believe that you're interpreting some facts (people selling their collections, which happens all the time in a trading / fashionable game) the way it best seems to suit your arguments. > At this > rate, it won't be long before I join them. Because you went to a tournie with not enough prize support ?! Well, I'm sure this is the right spirit. This isn't the place to discuss eventual trouble between Princes and WW's organisation : the Conclave is. If you have some trouble with a shop, a Prince, or whomever was in that tournament, this might be the place. Or not. But if you don't have all the proper elements you have no ability to judge who is responsible for what. And if you do have them, it means you're a Prince, because you love this game and want to help it grow. As this doesn't seem to be the case, it certainly is easier to criticize (without any proper arguments) the works of others than to propose interesting solutions (as a Prince on the Conclave or as a player worried about the game he loves right here). But I don't believe this leads to anywhere of interest. --------- Orpheus

"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > Quite. The storyline in Battle Creek, MI had two, count 'em, TWO whole > packs of cards for the prize support in addition to some crappy novels > by WW that nobody wanted. This for a tournament that I had to pay $5 > to participate in. Noal, I know Battle Creek had some attendance issues, but did the retailer charge you in relation to the cost of the prize kit? Or was that $5 a general fee to play cards in his shop? In defense of the novels/graphic novels, for a format specifically designed to play with new blood, I think they make sense - I offered the novels/graphic novels to the new players at my tournament as a prize for being new. They turned them down, so I'll keep offering them to new players, etc. In general, I think that the prize kits weren't bad-- these weren't supposed to be high-competition, big-reward events; the "prize" was the chance to get a new card for your clan and for your region. The Legions were the main thing my players were interested in, and Advanced Lambach didn't hurt either. Note: I also paid out of pocket for a little stack of prize support for finalists. I don't expect White Wolf to cover all bases in all cases. > Indeed. My experience has convinced me of three things: > 1) Never return to the store in Battle Creek I can dig that, based on your description. > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. Now, that's a bit extreme. WW does more than most companies, and recent difficulties can and should be worked out between Princes and them. Then again, I haven't experienced any difficulties, personally, so it may be easy for me to say so... > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to > play in unless it's held at a major convention. There's your gap in reasoning -- come to Wisconsin! No charge for playing, prize support is live, we have leftover Lambachs and Legions as gimmes... plus you guys owe us for all the Michigan trips we've made. : ) > I now know why every one is selling off their collection. At this > rate, it won't be long before I join them. C'mon, Noal. It can't be that bad, can it? Lately I've been thinking to myself, as I read the pissy rantings of people who didn't get their stuff and didn't get it on time and such... and think, "Man, this game almost died. We didn't have any cards, let alone any prize support. Things could be a lot worse." I think this makes me more likely to accept things as they are, sure, but I figure it gives us perspective. Dunno. That's just me. good luck with it all, heslin

"Orpheus" wrote: > [first, I don't want the actual argument between Noal and me to turn this > thread into a flame war ; so I'll just state my Pov calmly and expect him to > behave the same ; but I couldn't let the things he said go by unanswered, > even if the troll-bait seems obvious] You'll find that within the constraints of a reasonable debate, I can respond appropriately. Esp. when the matter is fairly important. That is not to say that there has been a cessation of hostilities. > > Quite. The storyline in Battle Creek, MI had two, count 'em, TWO whole > > packs of cards for the prize support in addition to some crappy novels > > by WW that nobody wanted. This for a tournament that I had to pay $5 > > to participate in. > > So the tournament where you were had some trouble with prize. The 2 packs of > cards (making them 20 of each) and books were standard przie support for > that storyline, for various reasons discussed on Princes list. First off, the books are crap. I don't know anybody who wanted them. Including them in the prize support was a waste of everyone's time. Second, two total packs of cards for prize support is insulting. Better that no prize support had been given at all. > The situation lately maybe hasn't been for the best. I have run tournaments since back in the DCI days, and the only time the situation was worse was during the Ryan Dancey era. You probably don't know what this means, but the people that have been around since the beginning certainly do. > But some tournies out there went wonderfully well, including prizewise. True. You'll notice that I'm not complaining about the Howell tournament. That store is obviously interested in return business. That said, prize support needs to be more consistent. > No matter : the goal of a > tournament is to have fun, and if the mood was good it should be enough. if it was free, certainly. Anytime money enters into it, people want to know that they're getting something for it. > > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the > > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. > > Are you on the Conclave list ? Do you have all the elements to judge of the > inadequacy of WW's handling of Prize Support ? Do you propose any solutions > ? Are you aware that despite all the problems, real or imaginary, some > Princes still manage good prize support for every single tournament ? This is where being more knowledgeable of whom you're addressing would be helpful. I'll save you the history lesson, but suffice it to say that I've been *very* involved in the evolution of the game since long before White Wolf's involvement. So, yes, I can adequately judge incompetence, esp. when it has been going on for so long. (I still haven't gotten my f**cking 2001 Qualifier T-shirt!!!) While I dropped from the Conclave list, very few people would believe that I wasn't kept informed of current events. Kevin M's struggles to listen to common sense, for example. > > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to > > play in unless it's held at a major convention. > > Why ? Because you want more prize ? Do you think these are totally related ? > And are you sure the mood of the tournament will be better in a convention > than in some small events ? In my experience, this isn't always the case. > And you could be surprised of what some "normal" tournaments can manage with > prize even without WW's help. Now, of course, being on good terms with the > local shops can't harm. LOL. You seem completely unaware that I'm one of the founding fathers of the NJL and what that means. Go look it up. Talk to Carl if it helps. > This isn't the place to discuss eventual trouble between Princes and WW's > organisation : the Conclave is. I can discuss it anywhere I like. Esp. since I'm just a player. ;-) Noal

Excuse me sir, but your constant boasting is something so childish i'm just wonedering if all i read there is real. Personnaly i don't give a damn of the national jyhad league. I don't recall the "ryan dancey era" and don't really care about it. Were you a designer of the jyhad card set, i won't look at you differently. Being an old time does not give you the right to be so arrogant -moreover, it should be the exact opposite. Instead of teaching people, you just tell them "hey , i was here first" and "i'll never tell you what i know, you newbie !". Exactly like you did in kindergarten, probably. What is important is what's happening right now. Instead of proposing some answers, you're just moaning in the tiring "oh things were so much better yesterday"-style ! If some errors are not to be repeated, you're the one who should inform us. Hey, try to evolve, man. I don't know what happened to you, but being bitter does not resolves things.

"Matthew Heslin" wrote: > Noal, I know Battle Creek had some attendance > issues, but did the retailer charge you in relation to the > cost of the prize kit? Or was that $5 a general fee to > play cards in his shop? My understanding was the latter. > In defense of the novels/graphic novels, for a format > specifically designed to play with new blood, I think > they make sense - I offered the novels/graphic novels > to the new players at my tournament as a prize for > being new. They turned them down, so I'll keep offering > them to new players, etc. My point is that *everyone* is turning them down. Nobody wants them. The plot is barely above pulp fiction and White Wolf hasn't had an editor skilled enough to manage a 1st grader's, "What I Did for Summer," since it went into business. > In general, I think that the prize kits weren't bad-- > these weren't supposed to be high-competition, > big-reward events; the "prize" was the chance to get > a new card for your clan and for your region. The > Legions were the main thing my players were interested > in, and Advanced Lambach didn't hurt either. Don't get me wrong. Storyline events are a good idea. I'm just sick of White Wolf getting worse at prize support with every passing year. (Still no 2K1 T-shirt!) > Note: I also paid out of pocket for a little stack of > prize support for finalists. I don't expect White Wolf > to cover all bases in all cases. Oh, I understand all that. I did all that in the old days of NJL, obviously. But then, there wasn't anyone steering the ship. Just the fledgling NJL and VEKN organizations. Now that there's a central authority with a vested financial interest, I expect things to be handled more professionally. I hate to say it, but things were actually handled better when WotC hung us out to dry. > > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the > > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. > > Now, that's a bit extreme. WW does more than > most companies, and recent difficulties can and should > be worked out between Princes and them. Then again, > I haven't experienced any difficulties, personally, so > it may be easy for me to say so... If it was just this one event, that would be an anomoly. This has been an issue for over three years. > > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to > > play in unless it's held at a major convention. > > There's your gap in reasoning -- come to Wisconsin! Hey, I'll always play for free. :-) > No charge for playing, prize support is live, we have > leftover Lambachs and Legions as gimmes... plus you > guys owe us for all the Michigan trips we've made. : ) Damned straight. Count on me coming on a road trip next year when things have settled down. > > I now know why every one is selling off their collection. At this > > rate, it won't be long before I join them. > > C'mon, Noal. It can't be that bad, can it? Actually, yeah. After the absolute filth that the Anarchs set was (we knew there was no hope for it during playtesting) I've lost all faith in the design team and I really don't give a shit about the game anymore. It's the company of the people I've known for several years that keeps me playing. > Lately I've been thinking to myself, as I read the > pissy rantings of people who didn't get their stuff and > didn't get it on time and such... and think, "Man, this > game almost died. We didn't have any cards, let alone > any prize support. Things could be a lot worse." I think > this makes me more likely to accept things as they are, > sure, but I figure it gives us perspective. Dunno. That's > just me. Oh, I know. Except all these new kids about lately, we've all been through the dark days and know how bad it can get. At least back then, if you didn't like the rules, you could always make your own rules team and run the show yourself. ;-) Maybe the time has come for the NJL to return. I just don't have the energy to yell from the rafters anymore. It's someone else's turn. Regards, Noal

> "Orpheus" wrote: > > [first, I don't want the actual argument between Noal and me to turn this > > thread into a flame war ; so I'll just state my Pov calmly and expect him to > > behave the same ; but I couldn't let the things he said go by unanswered, > > even if the troll-bait seems obvious] > > You'll find that within the constraints of a reasonable debate, I can > respond appropriately. You can respond with a proper tone. Appropriately is another matter on the whole. Esp. when the matter is fairly important. That > is not to say that there has been a cessation of hostilities. LOL. Stop it, I'm so afraid right now ! We don't like each other, that's a fact. But I'm not at war with anyone, and anyone being at war with me will waste a great amount of time and energy better put elsewhere. Now, on with more adult things : > > > Quite. The storyline in Battle Creek, MI had two, count 'em, TWO whole > > > packs of cards for the prize support in addition to some crappy novels > > > by WW that nobody wanted. This for a tournament that I had to pay $5 > > > to participate in. > > > > So the tournament where you were had some trouble with prize. The 2 packs of > > cards (making them 20 of each) and books were standard przie support for > > that storyline, for various reasons discussed on Princes list. > > First off, the books are crap. I don't know anybody who wanted them. > Including them in the prize support was a waste of everyone's time. The Comics is crap in my opinion too. Still, some people were happy to have something with Calebros's name on it. The novel is only the first in a cycle of 3 and that is pure merchandising : giving you something which is useless unless you buy the rest. So I agree that it wasn't great. But it is better than nothing. > Second, two total packs of cards for prize support is insulting. > Better that no prize support had been given at all. How many players in this tournie ? 2 packs = 20 cards. If it wasn't enough, at least it IS better than nothing. I had one less pack than I would have needed, and had to make do with what I had too. No pack at all would have been much more problematic. > > The situation lately maybe hasn't been for the best. > > I have run tournaments since back in the DCI days, and the only time > the situation was worse was during the Ryan Dancey era. You probably > don't know what this means, but the people that have been around since > the beginning certainly do. Lucky them. And lucky you. So, you really think that things are going for the worse ? That they are worse now than years ago ? Then, it looks like it was good enough at the time. > > But some tournies out there went wonderfully well, including prizewise. > > True. You'll notice that I'm not complaining about the Howell > tournament. That store is obviously interested in return business. > That said, prize support needs to be more consistent. We all know, especially you, as you seem so well informed, that WW is setting a new prize support system. If the prize for all upcoming tournaments is in the range of what we've had for the storyline, then I'll have to agree with you. But we've been told it was temporary, and as much as I want to see the end of the tunnel, I want to give some creadit to WW : they know it can't be worse than it was on this particular tournament (you'll notice I'm not speaking of the support in general), and *I want to believe* they'll do their best for what comes next : after all, they've been preparing it for some months now. > > No matter : the goal of a > > tournament is to have fun, and if the mood was good it should be enough. > > if it was free, certainly. Anytime money enters into it, people want > to know that they're getting something for it. Fun ? Sometimes a room has to be rented, or other contraints may have to be paid. Now, as you're being vague on who exactly organised the tournie and what you think has been done with the entry fees, I have no way at all to express an opinion on that subject. > > > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the > > > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. > > > > Are you on the Conclave list ? Do you have all the elements to judge of the > > inadequacy of WW's handling of Prize Support ? Do you propose any solutions > > ? Are you aware that despite all the problems, real or imaginary, some > > Princes still manage good prize support for every single tournament ? > > This is where being more knowledgeable of whom you're addressing would > be helpful. Oh, I think I'm getting an idea... > I'll save you the history lesson, Thanks for that ! > but suffice it to say > that I've been *very* involved in the evolution of the game since long > before White Wolf's involvement. I know. > So, yes, I can adequately judge > incompetence, esp. when it has been going on for so long. (I still > haven't gotten my f**cking 2001 Qualifier T-shirt!!!) You can have an opinion, as anyone else. You can't "judge" anything, especially as you're not pulling your weight anymore. And I didn't pretend all was for the best right now ; but first, prize support before this summer has been, on my side of the ocean, better handled then 2 years ago; second, teams come and go, and if some people are incompetent some other people will take their place (if it doesn't happen, then maybe the incompetence, if any, lies higher, but this cannot be judged right now) ; and finally, I find disproportionate to hear "I never want to be a Prince again" because of that, especially when some people on this group who don't have all the elements may be discouraged by what you say. > While I dropped > from the Conclave list, very few people would believe that I wasn't > kept informed of current events. Then some people aren't respecting the terms of the Conclave list, which is supposed to hold infos for Princes eyes only (he best reason for it being that it's a place where issues are discussed before being solved and that bad rumors spread way too fast). > Kevin M's struggles to listen to > common sense, for example. Many people on the Conclave list struggle to find better ways and make their problems known, and solved. There are issues that need to be talked about, and as always we'll find the persons who try to make the things advance and the ones who just want to complain. Kevin has said interesting things, quite different from your post here. He obviously still cares for the game. > > > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to > > > play in unless it's held at a major convention. > > > > Why ? Because you want more prize ? Do you think these are totally related ? > > And are you sure the mood of the tournament will be better in a convention > > than in some small events ? In my experience, this isn't always the case. > > And you could be surprised of what some "normal" tournaments can manage with > > prize even without WW's help. Now, of course, being on good terms with the > > local shops can't harm. > > LOL. You seem completely unaware that I'm one of the founding fathers > of the NJL and what that means. Go look it up. Talk to Carl if it > helps. You boasted on that subject enough times. So you were in the League ? Great for you. What do you do for the game NOW ? I'm the Prime Founder of the Barzoďs, do you have any idea what this means ?!?! (well, it has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and no one cares, do they ?). ;-) > > This isn't the place to discuss eventual trouble between Princes and WW's > > organisation : the Conclave is. > > I can discuss it anywhere I like. Oh, you big boy ! How strong you are !!! Sure, nobody can prevent you from speaking of what you want where you want, or doing anything you want with your haircut. So what ? I didn't say : you CAN'T say that, it's forbidden !!! I said : this isn't the place for it. Because here is where players talk about their game, not where (non)organisers criticize the organisation they are (or were) supporting. Except of course if you want to reveal to the Face of the World how Big Bad White Wolf is really so bad that everyone should run away very fast. Which I think and hope isn't your intent. > Esp. since I'm just a player. ;-) If you are a player, not receiving all the Conclave mails, your information are necessarily biased by your (uncomplete) source. But we both know you aren't "just a player", no more than you are a Prince. I really believe that people should either help when they think there is a problem, shut their mouths, or quit the problematic zone. You once did the first, and threaten to do the last. Where do you stand now ? ------ Orpheus

"Orpheus" wrote: > Esp. when the matter is fairly important. That > > is not to say that there has been a cessation of hostilities. > > LOL. Stop it, I'm so afraid right now ! > We don't like each other, that's a fact. But I'm not at war with anyone, and > anyone being at war with me will waste a great amount of time and energy > better put elsewhere. I dunno. Both you and Reyda are responding fairly admirably without me putting any real effort into pushing your buttons. I haven't even made a crack about "Freedom Fries" or some such nonsense. > > First off, the books are crap. I don't know anybody who wanted them. > > Including them in the prize support was a waste of everyone's time. > > The Comics is crap in my opinion too. Still, some people were happy to have > something with Calebros's name on it. The novel is only the first in a cycle > of 3 and that is pure merchandising : giving you something which is useless > unless you buy the rest. So I agree that it wasn't great. But it is better > than nothing. I'm with you until that last line. Most people would rather just have the cards. > > Second, two total packs of cards for prize support is insulting. > > Better that no prize support had been given at all. > > How many players in this tournie ? > > 2 packs = 20 cards. Packs don't get split into individual cards. They are considered a single unit. There was 6 people that showed up (yes, there were the attendance issues alluded to) but 6 x $5 = $30. The books were completely unwanted and had no value to the players. So, the 2 packs + the books may have come close to the $30, but the players all felt cheated. > If it wasn't enough, at least it IS better than nothing. Nothing is free. People will happily play for free. > > I have run tournaments since back in the DCI days, and the only time > > the situation was worse was during the Ryan Dancey era. You probably > > don't know what this means, but the people that have been around since > > the beginning certainly do. > > Lucky them. And lucky you. So, you really think that things are going for > the worse ? That they are worse now than years ago ? Then, it looks like it > was good enough at the time. It really is getting as bad as the DCI days before WotC dropped it entirely. As I said in another post. If this one event was an anomoly, I'd be a lot more forgiving. > We all know, especially you, as you seem so well informed, that WW is > setting a new prize support system. If the prize for all upcoming > tournaments is in the range of what we've had for the storyline, then I'll > have to agree with you. But we've been told it was temporary, and as much as > I want to see the end of the tunnel, I want to give some creadit to WW : > they know it can't be worse than it was on this particular tournament > (you'll notice I'm not speaking of the support in general), and *I want to > believe* they'll do their best for what comes next : after all, they've been > preparing it for some months now. Maybe so. If they finally do get their shit together, I'll be happy to applaud. I'm just sick of empty promises from them over and over again. > > So, yes, I can adequately judge > > incompetence, esp. when it has been going on for so long. (I still > > haven't gotten my f**cking 2001 Qualifier T-shirt!!!) > > You can have an opinion, as anyone else. You can't "judge" anything, > especially as you're not pulling your weight anymore. Actually, I did what was best for my area. Between buying a house and getting married, I really haven't had time to organize events all year. Compound that with being so completely uninterested in the Anarch set that I couldn't bring myself to promote a game I no longer believed in, it was time for me to step aside for someone more motivated. However, the new Prince recently became a father, so he understandably has more pressing concerns these days. > And I didn't pretend > all was for the best right now ; but first, prize support before this summer > has been, on my side of the ocean, better handled then 2 years ago; Considering the horror stories I was hearing back then, I'm certainly in agreement. > second, > teams come and go, and if some people are incompetent some other people will > take their place (if it doesn't happen, then maybe the incompetence, if any, > lies higher, but this cannot be judged right now) ; The problem wasn't that incompetent people weren't being replaced. They just weren't being replaced with anyone that was any better. > and finally, I find > disproportionate to hear "I never want to be a Prince again" because of > that, especially when some people on this group who don't have all the > elements may be discouraged by what you say. A lot of it is just being completely burned out by the fact that the same issues continue to be a problem year after year. > > While I dropped > > from the Conclave list, very few people would believe that I wasn't > > kept informed of current events. > > Then some people aren't respecting the terms of the Conclave list, which is > supposed to hold infos for Princes eyes only (he best reason for it being > that it's a place where issues are discussed before being solved and that > bad rumors spread way too fast). I think the assumption is that I'll return to being a Prince after I get through this year. Despite my anger over the way things have been handled, it's not a necessarily unfounded belief. Righteous anger when I feel strongly about an issue is nothing new for me. Esp. when it seems to be the only way that it seems to get through to some people. (No, I'm not referring to you.) > > Kevin M's struggles to listen to > > common sense, for example. > > Kevin has said interesting things, quite > different from your post here. He obviously still cares for the game. Yes, he does. I made a huge typo. My intent was to say, "Kevin M's struggles to get people to listen to common sense, for example." I have a lot of respect for Kevin and it is my hope that people pay more attention to what he's saying. >>> This isn't the place to discuss eventual trouble between Princes and >>> WW's organisation : the Conclave is. > > > > I can discuss it anywhere I like. > > Oh, you big boy ! How strong you are !!! *shakes head* You do realize that I'm not able to post to the Conclave, right? As a common player, this *is* the appropriate place for me to bring it up. > !!! I said : this isn't the place for it. Because here is where players talk > about their game, not where (non)organisers criticize the organisation they > are (or were) supporting. Except of course if you want to reveal to the Face > of the World how Big Bad White Wolf is really so bad that everyone should > run away very fast. Which I think and hope isn't your intent. No, my intent is to give voice to my discontent over how I, as a player, feel the game is being handled. As such, there is no better place for it. > > Esp. since I'm just a player. ;-) > > If you are a player, not receiving all the Conclave mails, your information > are necessarily biased by your (uncomplete) source. But we both know you > aren't "just a player", no more than you are a Prince. For now. > I really believe that people should either help when they think there is a > problem, shut their mouths, or quit the problematic zone. You once did the > first, and threaten to do the last. Where do you stand now ? None of the above. There's a little something about freedom of speech. Even when powerless to change something, allowing people to give voice to the problem can influence those that can change them. For now, I'm voting with my wallet. As far as the future, that depends on where things stand by next spring. If things have improved, I'll get back in the game. If not, I don't know. Noal

On 7 Oct 2003 15:11:30 -0700, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) wrote: >"Matthew Heslin" wrote: >> Noal, I know Battle Creek had some attendance >> issues, but did the retailer charge you in relation to the >> cost of the prize kit? Or was that $5 a general fee to >> play cards in his shop? > >My understanding was the latter. Dave would have better info on this than I seeing as how I was unable to make the BC trip. I do know that the stores were charged something like $10 per support pack which (per my recollection) is set up per 10 attendees. So while a general fee is understandable, the $5.00 seems a bit high for a store that should want us to come and frequent. Heroquest Games in Howell had a $3.00 entry which seemed about right. >> In defense of the novels/graphic novels, for a format >> specifically designed to play with new blood, I think >> they make sense - I offered the novels/graphic novels >> to the new players at my tournament as a prize for >> being new. They turned them down, so I'll keep offering >> them to new players, etc. > >My point is that *everyone* is turning them down. Nobody wants them. >The plot is barely above pulp fiction and White Wolf hasn't had an >editor skilled enough to manage a 1st grader's, "What I Did for >Summer," since it went into business. Pretty much the same thing I'd seen at the storylines as well. The Graphic Novel and Book were rejected by the finalists and given to whomever was standing around. I took the Graphic Novel as part of my prize, thinking it would be worth a read. Figured it had a 50/50% chance of being readable based on WW's past attempts with novels. While not really bad, it wasn't all that good. Best defined as forgettable. >> In general, I think that the prize kits weren't bad-- >> these weren't supposed to be high-competition, >> big-reward events; the "prize" was the chance to get >> a new card for your clan and for your region. The >> Legions were the main thing my players were interested >> in, and Advanced Lambach didn't hurt either. > >Don't get me wrong. Storyline events are a good idea. I'm just sick of >White Wolf getting worse at prize support with every passing year. >(Still no 2K1 T-shirt!) I'm still waiting to see the promised posters that we can hang in a game store where we can post info about upcoming events. Until that happens, I have little interest in supporting the game either. >> Note: I also paid out of pocket for a little stack of >> prize support for finalists. I don't expect White Wolf >> to cover all bases in all cases. > >Oh, I understand all that. I did all that in the old days of NJL, >obviously. But then, there wasn't anyone steering the ship. Just the >fledgling NJL and VEKN organizations. Now that there's a central >authority with a vested financial interest, I expect things to be >handled more professionally. I hate to say it, but things were >actually handled better when WotC hung us out to dry. AFAIK, aside from a handfull of people VTES is completely ran by people in a part-time capacity, or by volunteer staff. The primary set designer (LSJ) is a part-time contracted employee. While I respect the work Scott does (and has done) for VTES, I can't help but feel that sets like Anarchs could have been better designed and developed by a hired professional who is able to devote more time to the R&D process. >> > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the >> > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. >> >> Now, that's a bit extreme. WW does more than >> most companies, and recent difficulties can and should >> be worked out between Princes and them. Then again, >> I haven't experienced any difficulties, personally, so >> it may be easy for me to say so... > >If it was just this one event, that would be an anomoly. This has been >an issue for over three years. WW has actually been pretty fair in Prize Support. They have just had some SERIOUS issues in the delivery and tracking area. >> > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to >> > play in unless it's held at a major convention. >> >> There's your gap in reasoning -- come to Wisconsin! > >Hey, I'll always play for free. :-) > >> No charge for playing, prize support is live, we have >> leftover Lambachs and Legions as gimmes... plus you >> guys owe us for all the Michigan trips we've made. : ) > >Damned straight. Count on me coming on a road trip next year when >things have settled down. I'd be up for a roadtrip as well. Milwaukee will always remain one of my favorite cities to visit :-) >> > I now know why every one is selling off their collection. At this >> > rate, it won't be long before I join them. >> >> C'mon, Noal. It can't be that bad, can it? > >Actually, yeah. After the absolute filth that the Anarchs set was (we >knew there was no hope for it during playtesting) I've lost all faith >in the design team and I really don't give a shit about the game >anymore. It's the company of the people I've known for several years >that keeps me playing. We lost a lot of our old-timers on the release of The Camarilla set. I don't expect to see them back anytime soon. As for playtesting, well I can't really say much about that except that VTES is the only CCG product I purchase that doesn't give any acknowledgement of thier playtesters in a set's credits. >> Lately I've been thinking to myself, as I read the >> pissy rantings of people who didn't get their stuff and >> didn't get it on time and such... and think, "Man, this >> game almost died. We didn't have any cards, let alone >> any prize support. Things could be a lot worse." I think >> this makes me more likely to accept things as they are, >> sure, but I figure it gives us perspective. Dunno. That's >> just me. Until WW figures out how to use UPS and send out tracking numbers to the recipient, I expect to hear no end of bitching. How freakin' hard can it be to impliment package tracking?? >Oh, I know. Except all these new kids about lately, we've all been >through the dark days and know how bad it can get. At least back then, >if you didn't like the rules, you could always make your own rules >team and run the show yourself. ;-) > >Maybe the time has come for the NJL to return. I just don't have the >energy to yell from the rafters anymore. It's someone else's turn. Which has been part of the problem. While I know a number of guys in Lansing that play VTES, nobody else wants to step up and do the work to organize events. Like Noal, I've put in my time on the organizing side of things and some other slacker can step up to make things happen. >Regards, >Noal BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote > > Quite. The storyline in Battle Creek, MI had two, count 'em, TWO whole > packs of cards for the prize support in addition to some crappy novels > by WW that nobody wanted. This for a tournament that I had to pay $5 > to participate in. To be honest, I would have grabbed the novel and comic if I had not already grabbed them at the Storyline in Toronto. So, it's true that I did not want them, but the reason was a little different than what you suggest. However, the Calebros comic was rather mediocre in my opinion. I imagine it would haev made more sense if I knew the rest of the story. Moonshadow seems to be a little unconventional about their numbering issues. I don't get it frankly. I don't know what issues came before and after. Not a great way to tell a story guys. I *may* get around to reading the novel I won in Toronto, but I'm not too eager. I found the original clan novel Tremere by the same author to be written competentlly, but completely incomprehensible at the same time. I'm told that the trilogy carries on where that one left off. The Tremere are not a clan that interest me much thematically. But I can never have too many books. For the record, other White Wolf novels and short stories have actually been very good IMHO. And yeah, two packs of Anarchs *total* as prize support was pretty offensive. Obviously, they pocketed the rest to sell. Also not mentioned by Noal was that they closed the store early, forcing us to find an alternative location to play the final in. We ended up in a Burger King... not my first choice in venues. Their excuse was that the owner of the store had to leave for Ann Arbor for an emergency or something like that, but I saw him coming out of the store as we were walking back to the cars *after* the final. > Indeed. My experience has convinced me of three things: > 1) Never return to the store in Battle Creek Agreed. > 2) Never, ever be a Prince again so I don't have to put up with the > total lack of competence on WW's part to handle prize support. Not sure I would place much blame at White Wolf's feet. It seems less incompetence on their part than greed on the part of several stores and distributors. I also can't blame White Wolf for giving comics and books as prize support. Makes sense really. Of course, I would rather have cards. > 3) Never, ever attend a constructed tournament that I have to pay to > play in unless it's held at a major convention. Most of the tournaments I have played in have had a cost. Usually 2-5 dollars (US or CDN). I usually see a *lot* more back from that investment than I did at Battle Creek though, true. Peter in Toronto uses the $3 he charges to buy boosters that he gives out to each player during the game. This gives some business to the store and players basically all walk away with something. Sure I could just as easily just buy the booster myself, but this way everyone ends up fairly content. No complaints here. > I now know why every one is selling off their collection. At this > rate, it won't be long before I join them. I hope not, since I enjoy playing with you. (But I will give you a spiffy White Wolf novel for your entire collection, ok Noal? Email me off list!) Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:bm0a0...@enews3.newsguy.com... > To be honest, I would have grabbed the novel and comic if I had not > already grabbed them at the Storyline in Toronto. So, it's true that I > did not want them, but the reason was a little different than what you > suggest. Over here I think players have treated them with some curiosity, but they would certainly have preferred boosters were there any provided as an alternative. As an aside, we haven't seen those action figures in any prize support packs yet, and I'm sure they'd go down pretty well... > However, the Calebros comic was rather mediocre in my opinion. I imagine > it would haev made more sense if I knew the rest of the story. > Moonshadow seems to be a little unconventional about their numbering > issues. I don't get it frankly. I don't know what issues came before and > after. Not a great way to tell a story guys. Hmm the comics whilst a great idea have been very poorly executed. TBH it's probably a bit unfair to slam WW themselves about it though, as it's likely that Moonstone themselves chose the artists and storyboarders. I think my hamster could draw better than some of the guys they chose. Seeing more comics *would* be cool, but only if WW could address these problems by picking a better partner or doing it themselves? > I *may* get around to reading the novel I won in Toronto, but I'm not > too eager. I found the original clan novel Tremere by the same author to > be written competentlly, but completely incomprehensible at the same > time. I'm told that the trilogy carries on where that one left off. The > Tremere are not a clan that interest me much thematically. But I can > never have too many books. The Clan Novel was bearable. The Clan Trilogy is dog-shite, making very little sense (and not even attempting to try) over the course of the entire narrative. > For the record, other White Wolf novels and short stories have actually > been very good IMHO. Well that's being very generous. As someone who has collected *all* the fiction since day one, it's been all over the place. Editorial decisions seem to be very inconsistent, but this may be because different people have been making them each time? Things started well with the Beast Within, Dark Prince and Prince of the City, but then Robert Weinberg's Red Death trilogy sucked horribly. The matching trilogies of the Garil Covenant and the Blood Curse were a little better, but they seriously lost their way towards the end. The Clan Novels were a seriously mixed bag, with a lot of them hardly mentioning the clans they were supposed to be about. IMHO the best standing heads above the rest is Setite, the worst being the Giovanni, but not by much. And don't get me started on the Tremere trilogy. The best Vampire novel overall out of all of the releases is the first book of the Hunter sextet - Predator - this beats every other book hands down for the consistency, quality and development of the narrative. From an editorial purist point of view what we keep seeing are incomplete stories told from too many points of view. There are so many occaisions where, within the space of a single page you step through the eyes of four or five characters. In many cases it seems that the author is just going through the motions necessary to depict an event required by the line developer. It's pretty sloppy and heavy handed IMHO and I'm very surprised that the quality control has not been a lot tighter. We also keep getting shards of different stories that are woefully incomplete or left unexplained. This is fine for RPG material, but if that's all it is supposed to be, then why not just put it in a V:TM supplement rather than something that is supposed to be a 'novel'. Err, sorry, rant over. Went on a bit of a tangent there. I'd be interested to see what other people think though - hopefully I'm not alone? :) Regards, Mike

"Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote > > Hmm the comics whilst a great idea have been very poorly executed. TBH it's > probably a bit unfair to slam WW themselves about it though, as it's likely > that Moonstone themselves chose the artists and storyboarders. I think my > hamster could draw better than some of the guys they chose. Seeing more > comics *would* be cool, but only if WW could address these problems by > picking a better partner or doing it themselves? The Toreador one was ok I thought. Art and story were interesting. I saw the Brujah given out one as prize support at some tourney or another but have not had the chance to read it yet. > The Clan Novel was bearable. The Clan Trilogy is dog-shite, making very > little sense (and not even attempting to try) over the course of the entire > narrative. Wow. And here I thought I had to read the trilogy for the clan novel to make sense. Best it stays on the shelf then. > > For the record, other White Wolf novels and short stories have actually > > been very good IMHO. > > Well that's being very generous. Not all of it... some. > As someone who has collected *all* the > fiction since day one, it's been all over the place. I have most... so let's compare notes. > Things started well with the Beast Within, Dark > Prince and Prince of the City, I inherited these from a friend who used to play V:tES. I haven't read them yet. They don't look all that great frankly. But I'll give them a try based on your liking them. > but then Robert Weinberg's Red Death trilogy > sucked horribly. Don't mention that trilogy! It's not canon! Seriously, that series was really really bad. > The matching trilogies of the Garil Covenant and the Blood > Curse were a little better, but they seriously lost their way towards the > end. I picked up the first of the Grail Covenant and liked it a lot. The Lasombra clan always seemed pretty cool to me. But I could never find the second and third novel. I had actually assumed that they were never made. Haven't read Blood Curse. > The Clan Novels were a seriously mixed bag, with a lot of them hardly > mentioning the clans they were supposed to be about. IMHO the best standing > heads above the rest is Setite, Most people say this. I agree. Hesha seems to be the most interesting of the signature characters. > the worst being the Giovanni, A lot of people say this also. I actually liked it a lot. It got away from the elder-powerful-mega-vampire-character and showed "life" as a vampire from the POV of a piddly little shit who barely deserved immortality in the first place (and his clan knew it). I dunno... I liked how it showed some of the basics of being a vampire. The horror of losing control to a frenzy. The crap of being trapped in a rigid hierarchical family and knowing that you will never rise above your current station. I like that Chas had only barely heard of Necromancy. The clan didn't see fit to teach him because his role as a thug did not require it. And his disadvantage on the card version pretty much sums up his incompetence. > The best Vampire > novel overall out of all of the releases is the first book of the Hunter > sextet - Predator - this beats every other book hands down for the > consistency, quality and development of the narrative. Interesting. I'll have to check that one out. > From an editorial purist point of view what we keep seeing are incomplete > stories told from too many points of view. There are so many occaisions > where, within the space of a single page you step through the eyes of four > or five characters. In many cases it seems that the author is just going > through the motions necessary to depict an event required by the line > developer. It's pretty sloppy and heavy handed IMHO and I'm very surprised > that the quality control has not been a lot tighter. We also keep getting > shards of different stories that are woefully incomplete or left > unexplained. Even though the clan novels came out over a period of a year and a half or so... it all seemed very rushed. Since you are collecting all of the WW fiction, have you started on the Dark Age clan novels yet? Any good? Cheers, WES

> > > Second, two total packs of cards for prize support is insulting. > > > Better that no prize support had been given at all. > > > > How many players in this tournie ? > > > > 2 packs = 20 cards. > > Packs don't get split into individual cards. You mean Booster Packs ?! The Storyline packs don't include any, and it seemed logical to me that you were speaking about these, not boosters. You're right, 2 boosts don't mean squat. Didn't the local Prince also receive the promo cards included in the packs ? ----- Orpheus

Noal McDonald wrote: > Packs don't get split into individual cards. They are considered a > single unit. There was 6 people that showed up (yes, there were the > attendance issues alluded to) but 6 x $5 = $30. The books were > completely unwanted and had no value to the players. So, the 2 packs + > the books may have come close to the $30, but the players all felt > cheated. I thought you indicated that the $5 was for "playing in the store" rather than for prize support. If so, then equating the price of playing time with the level of prize support doesn't seem proper. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

<snip> > Err, sorry, rant over. Went on a bit of a tangent there. I'd be interested > to see what other people think though - hopefully I'm not alone? :) > > > Regards, > > Mike Well, I agree about the "Hunter" Novel being the best. Some wonderful twists in it. The best Clan Novels as I think I've mentioned before were Brujah, Setite, Ravnos, Malkavian, and to an extent Gangrel. The real stinkers were Tremere, Assamite, Tzimisce, and Nosferatu (which, being the last one, should have been a hell of a lot more coherent). I found Giovanni OK, but more of a "no score draw" than a win, and Toreador, Ventrue, and Lasombra were also fairly average. The Brujah clan triology is great so far, but this is more down to Theo Bell. He's one of the most interesting characters in the stories, simply because of his whole "Batman"-like demeanor. Very cool. The Lasombra Clan Triology is also pretty good, but Lucita is a very tedious character. I was more interested in the Bishop with No Legs (whose name I have forgotten). I think the worst book I have ever read to do with V:TM is the one with Dan Murdoch in as the star. It is AWFUL. Matt Green leant it to me a while ago, and I couldn't believe how bad it was. Dave

hamdamcwa wrote: > The Lasombra Clan Triology is also pretty good, but Lucita is a very > tedious character. I was more interested in the Bishop with No Legs > (whose name I have forgotten). I believe you're referring to Andrew Emory. [ quoted text not captured ]

On the topic I think the novels and comics was a good idea, personally I think it's cooler than winning boosters. Unfortunately the comic was mediocre at best, seemingly a random issue in a series. I didn't win the novel. Seeing that it was the first in a series of three I went for the comic (like everyone else). On the topic of the original complaint: The way I read it you are complaining that there were only 2 boosters, a few books/comics available in a tournament with 6 (six!) participants. While the store in question may have been really bad, I'm pretty sure that WW spent more money in administration of the tournament you ran than 30$ and that makes the topic seem whiny in the first place. You may have valid complaints and there may actually be a problem here, I just don't see it from your example. On the vampire novels, I've only read the trilogy of the Red Death. It has pretty much scared me away from reading any more of them as I feel I wasted totally valid hours of my life. "Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message news:<g8Rgb.5242$kA.14...@wards.force9.net>... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:34:57 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >hamdamcwa wrote: >> The Lasombra Clan Triology is also pretty good, but Lucita is a very >> tedious character. I was more interested in the Bishop with No Legs >> (whose name I have forgotten). > >I believe you're referring to Andrew Emory. ...who we'll be seeing in the upcoming Black Hand release, perhaps? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

> Excuse me sir, but your constant boasting is something so childish i'm just > wonedering if all i read there is real. > Personnaly i don't give a damn of the national jyhad league. I don't recall > the "ryan dancey era" and don't really care about it. Were you a designer of > the jyhad card set, i won't look at you differently. > Being an old time does not give you the right to be so arrogant -moreover, > it should be the exact opposite. Instead of teaching people, you just tell > them "hey , i was here first" and "i'll never tell you what i know, you > newbie !". Exactly like you did in kindergarten, probably. What is important > is what's happening right now. Instead of proposing some answers, you're > just moaning in the tiring "oh things were so much better yesterday"-style ! > If some errors are not to be repeated, you're the one who should inform us. I agree completely. Seems like the old and boring ranting about how the 1st edition of pen-and-paper Vampire is way better than the 2nd (or the 2nd is way better than the Revised one; you bet 95% of the "ranters" started playing with the edition they're defending). I've played Jyhad sometime in 96 or 97 and came back to the game last year, so even if I'm a newbie to some, I can recall the Jyhad first - and very confusing - decks and a time where we had no tournaments because there were no NJL in Brazil (as far as I knew of). Now, we have web pages dedicated to the game (in Portuguese), almost one tournament per month, and the local retailer did everything right to guarantee that our packs have arrived. All three Storylines held in Sao Paulo (the state) area went pretty well, with all the prize expected. If some didn't care about the novels is another matter. I got one in a final and I'm reading it. May not be superb, but it's entertaining and worth since I've paid around U$ 1,33 as entry fee for playing - and the most important thing to me was having the opportunity to test a new deck in a competitive environment (and to get some Xaviars without spending around U$ 70 to import a booster display of an expansion I don't want to use for the moment). Making 2 finals in 3 tournaments was good enough. Some of you guys bitch about the stores, distributors and retailers who are "in it for the money" and can't spare 2 to 5 bucks to meet people and play in a more competitive style? How does it cost to you to get into a local gig, for example? If you were chess players I would understand it, but it's a cardgame, and I bet you've spent 20 times it *per month* to build your collection. Though I was informed by the local prince that we were lucky to get the packs in time for the tourneys while WW had a lot of problems with distribution around the world, I still suspect that some people made the whole thing the harder way. Our princes centralized the prize orders for all tournaments in the whole country in one shop; when the shop received the packs, the Princes from Sao Paulo sent them all over the country by regular mail. Until now, I knew of just one event that didn't have the expected attends to be held properly. One had no extended prize since they had around 30 players when it was expected 40 or more, but it was fun, nobody went bitching about the quality of the novels, and the new players were very happy to gain something as a consolation prize - they've paid some bucks just to feel what it is to attend a tournament, even certain that they couldn't stand a chance against the old-timers. AFAIK, Storyline events are held to attract new players, and we're getting lots of them lately. Maybe we're talking about old-fart boredom disguised as "outside organization problems", but I can speak only for some people I know, not for foreign ones in a newsgroup debate. And I see people here who can't, or won't, do anything to attract new players; in fact, they do everything to maintain their Old Boy's Club, and get very angry when a "newbie" ousts them in a tourney. So suddenly it all turns to things like "[put in here any expansion as appropriate] is crap", "WW is all about the money", "they screwed up with [Thoughts Betrayed/Immortal Grapple/5th Tradition/whatever zillions of cards as appropriate when he was ousted]", and so on. Please, this is a game. It needs new players, it needs new tryouts, even if it doesn't seem to function that much, it needs to be profitable to survive. Everything else is just bitching for nothing.

On 9 Oct 2003, the_capuchin wrote: > I agree completely. Seems like the old and boring ranting about how > the 1st edition of pen-and-paper Vampire is way better than the 2nd > (or the 2nd is way better than the Revised one; you bet 95% of the > "ranters" started playing with the edition they're defending). But Mage Revised really does suck. I know that doesn't have anything to do with your point, but I like saying "MageRev sucks". David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.21.03100...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu... > On 9 Oct 2003, the_capuchin wrote: > > > I agree completely. Seems like the old and boring ranting about how > > the 1st edition of pen-and-paper Vampire is way better than the 2nd > > (or the 2nd is way better than the Revised one; you bet 95% of the > > "ranters" started playing with the edition they're defending). > > But Mage Revised really does suck. I know that doesn't have anything to > do with your point, but I like saying "MageRev sucks". should we gather some money to buy dave'cherry' a pack of lollypops to suck while we're talking about the game ?? =)

> > I agree completely. Seems like the old and boring ranting about how > > the 1st edition of pen-and-paper Vampire is way better than the 2nd > > (or the 2nd is way better than the Revised one; you bet 95% of the > > "ranters" started playing with the edition they're defending). > > But Mage Revised really does suck. I know that doesn't have anything to > do with your point, but I like saying "MageRev sucks". LOL. :-) I didn't read the Mage Revised Edition yet, but of course it's normal to have an opinion about any edition of any game. Bitching about it as if it was the most important thing in the world ("oh I won't play [insert the game of choice] anymore because they screwed up [insert the clan/tribe/sourcebook/whatever of your choice] to make money" and stuff; see ToJ and WW's forums for tons of examples) is just boring.

On 10 Oct 2003, the_capuchin wrote: > I didn't read the Mage Revised Edition yet, but of course it's normal > to have an opinion about any edition of any game. Bitching about it as > if it was the most important thing in the world ("oh I won't play > [insert the game of choice] anymore because they screwed up [insert > the clan/tribe/sourcebook/whatever of your choice] to make money" and > stuff; see ToJ and WW's forums for tons of examples) is just boring. Yeah, but they really did screw that one up. It's the reason I'm glad they are ending the WoD, so I don't have to watch them continue to hump the lasts vestiges of an Origins award-winning, visionary RPG. [ quoted text not captured ]

>But Mage Revised really does suck. I know that doesn't have anything to >do with your point, but I like saying "MageRev sucks". I'll second that. Halcyan 2