more q's on Caitiff

thanx to Sylvain and Tim for answering my q's, but they brought up some new ones regarding the Caitiff: -what if a Caitiff played The Embrace? what clan would the newly created vampire be? -Can a Caitiff be a Prince (due to a Praxis Seizure, for instance)? I mean, a Prince rules a city and i doubt if any vampires would acknowledge the claims of an outcast. -In the rulebook there is a part where the Caitiff are said to be uninvolved with the kindred. Does that still make them members of the Camarilla? and oh yeah, some more rules q's (these are probably real simple to you guys but hey i'm a Magic player and no-one taught me this game..): -If a Justicar or Inner Circle member gets a succesful Praxis Seizure on his ass, does he become a Prince and therefor lose his higher rank? -Can you play a card that requires a certain clan, like a Hunting Ground, even if the only vampire you have of that clan is in Torpor? -Is an Ally that can only be played by a member of a certain clan, like Loyal Street Gang, a member of that clan? -Is there an official rule on the number of copies of a card that one can put in his deck? -Can Inner Circle members play cards that state "requires a ready Prince or Justicar"? They do have a higher rank..? thanx again for the quick respond to my last one, and beforehand for answering this one... Teeka Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I am not LSJ, but will try anyway: > -what if a Caitiff played The Embrace? what clan would the newly > created vampire be? A clanless Camarilla vampire. > -Can a Caitiff be a Prince (due to a Praxis Seizure, for instance)? I > mean, a Prince rules a city and i doubt if any vampires would > acknowledge the claims of an outcast. Yes, he/she can. Caitiff are no clan, but still part of the Camarilla - which is the only requirement for Praxis Seizure. > -In the rulebook there is a part where the Caitiff are said to be > uninvolved with the kindred. Does that still make them members of the > Camarilla? > Yes, as they have no cardtext that says "Independent" or "Sabbat". > and oh yeah, some more rules q's (these are probably real simple to you > guys but hey i'm a Magic player and no-one taught me this game..): > -If a Justicar or Inner Circle member gets a succesful Praxis Seizure > on his ass, does he become a Prince and therefor lose his higher rank? Yes. Note that he has to call the PA himself, so you can't vote IC members controlled by another player out of office. > -Can you play a card that requires a certain clan, like a Hunting > Ground, even if the only vampire you have of that clan is in Torpor? No, he has to be ready. > -Is an Ally that can only be played by a member of a certain clan, like > Loyal Street Gang, a member of that clan? Only vampires belong to clans, the allies are simply that: allied mortals. > -Is there an official rule on the number of copies of a card that one > can put in his deck? No, there is no card limit in V:tES. > -Can Inner Circle members play cards that state "requires a ready > Prince or Justicar"? They do have a higher rank..? No, by card text. > > thanx again for the quick respond to my last one, and beforehand for > answering this one... No problem. Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 11:13:56 GMT, teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: >thanx to Sylvain and Tim for answering my q's, but they brought up some >new ones regarding the Caitiff: >-what if a Caitiff played The Embrace? what clan would the newly >created vampire be? Caitiff, I'd imagine, as a Camarilla "clanless". Except that Caitiff isn't exactly a clan, more of a designator. >-Can a Caitiff be a Prince (due to a Praxis Seizure, for instance)? I >mean, a Prince rules a city and i doubt if any vampires would >acknowledge the claims of an outcast. Yep. He just has to figure out how to get the vote to pass (often Igo, with a Presence skill card and a Bewitching Oration, can hungrily gain Princehood.) >-In the rulebook there is a part where the Caitiff are said to be >uninvolved with the kindred. Does that still make them members of the >Camarilla? Yes - in the latest rulebook, there is a clarification stating that Caitiff are part of the Camarilla. >and oh yeah, some more rules q's (these are probably real simple to you >guys but hey i'm a Magic player and no-one taught me this game..): >-If a Justicar or Inner Circle member gets a succesful Praxis Seizure >on his ass, does he become a Prince and therefor lose his higher rank? Yes. Of course, he has to call it himself, due to card text on all Praxis Seizures ("successful vote means the *acting vampire* is declared Prince of..."). >-Can you play a card that requires a certain clan, like a Hunting >Ground, even if the only vampire you have of that clan is in Torpor? Yes; the vampire of the clan must simply be controlled, not necessarily ready. However, the vampire who gains the blood from the Hunting Ground cannot be in torpor, per card text ("ready vampire"). >-Is an Ally that can only be played by a member of a certain clan, like >Loyal Street Gang, a member of that clan? No. Allies are clanless. >-Is there an official rule on the number of copies of a card that one >can put in his deck? Yes. The official rule is "You may put no more copies of a card in a deck than you own or have borrowed/stolen." (Ok, that isn't EXACTLY how it's phrased, but I think you get the idea. There are no card limits.) >-Can Inner Circle members play cards that state "requires a ready >Prince or Justicar"? They do have a higher rank..? They -do- have a higher rank, but still cannot play the Prince/Justicar cards. (perhaps they are "uninvolved with such petty affairs"?) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote: > > -what if a Caitiff played The Embrace? what clan would the newly > > created vampire be? > A clanless Camarilla vampire. Correct. > > -Can a Caitiff be a Prince (due to a Praxis Seizure, for instance)? I > > mean, a Prince rules a city and i doubt if any vampires would > > acknowledge the claims of an outcast. > Yes, he/she can. Caitiff are no clan, but still part of the Camarilla - which > is the only requirement for Praxis Seizure. Correct. [10.1] > > -In the rulebook there is a part where the Caitiff are said to be > > uninvolved with the kindred. Does that still make them members of the > > Camarilla? > Yes, as they have no cardtext that says "Independent" or "Sabbat". Correct. [10.1] > > -If a Justicar or Inner Circle member gets a succesful Praxis Seizure > > on his ass, does he become a Prince and therefor lose his higher rank? > Yes. Note that he has to call the PA himself, so you can't vote IC members > controlled by another player out of office. Correct. (Although you can vote an IC out of office by naming him a Justicar, for example). > > -Can you play a card that requires a certain clan, like a Hunting > > Ground, even if the only vampire you have of that clan is in Torpor? > No, he has to be ready. Correct (card text). > > -Is an Ally that can only be played by a member of a certain clan, like > > Loyal Street Gang, a member of that clan? > Only vampires belong to clans, the allies are simply that: allied mortals. Correct. > > -Is there an official rule on the number of copies of a card that one > > can put in his deck? > No, there is no card limit in V:tES. Correct. [1.2.1] > > -Can Inner Circle members play cards that state "requires a ready > > Prince or Justicar"? They do have a higher rank..? > No, by card text. Correct. IC members are neither princes nor justicars. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>> > -Is an Ally that can only be played by a member of a certain clan, like >> > Loyal Street Gang, a member of that clan? >> Only vampires belong to clans, the allies are simply that: allied mortals. > >Correct. (Just being picky) The part about "allied mortals" is generally true but not always. Whereas most supernaturals are actually mortal (including garou and mages), this is not always the case. Mummies are indeed "true" immortals, so Akhenaten and Kherebutu are "allied immortals." And I'm not sure exactly what you can call wraiths like Ambrosius. I'm not sure what the situation is with Changelings (they're probably mortal here, but how about in Arcadia?) so I'm not sure what category Dauntain Black Magician and Shadow Court Satyr are. Gargoyles are actually VAMPIRES! So Gargoyle Slave is, I guess, a "lesser" vampire. The same can be said about the combat card Blood Brother Ambush which creates an ally. Blood Brothers is a Sabbat bloodline. Whereas Nephandi are infernal mages (but sitll mortal mages), I *think* Succubus are indeed demons/devils/whatever. So they're probably immortal as well. While it's interesting to have a variety of supernatural (and banal) allies, VTES is indeed heavily biased towards vampires. Of course you'd expect that from a game about VAMPIRES, but most supernaturals are at least supposed to be balanced somewhat in the RPG's. (i.e. Mummies, Garou, and Mages are SO weak it's not even funny!). Of course all of the above is mainly based on the RPG but I don't want to get into the whole RPG vs. CCG thing (why can't we have both?). Yeah, it's a rather long post just to protest the generalization of "allied mortals" but I have nothing better to do right now. Halcyan 2

In article <20001109235846...@ng-cs1.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote: >And I'm not sure exactly what you can call wraiths like Ambrosius. Mortals, I'd say, since the only way to _become_ a wraith is by, well, morting. Post-mortals, if you want to get picky. >While it's interesting to have a variety of supernatural (and banal) allies, >VTES is indeed heavily biased towards vampires. Of course you'd expect that >from a game about VAMPIRES, but most supernaturals are at least supposed to be >balanced somewhat in the RPG's. (i.e. Mummies, Garou, and Mages are SO weak >it's not even funny!). If it bothers you, think of the life scale as measuring not the physical life of the ally, but the commitment to the Cause -- the Garou gets hit by a Sewer Lid and (instead of dying) decides that hey, maybe he doesn't want to hang out with Vliam quite so much any more. This approach gets a little funky with Compel the Spirit, but one can't have everything. Maybe the Spirit doesn't have to leave the body to be Compelled. Or something. gomi -- "I wanted to feel that tug of a body as it jerks and kicks while I hold the handle and the life erupts from it like water from the cold springs of the Eastern Mountains. That's what I wanted, and what you want makes you who you are." - Steven Brust, Teckla

>Mortals, I'd say, since the only way to _become_ a wraith is by, well, >morting. Post-mortals, if you want to get picky. Well you could say the same thing about Vampires, couldn't you? =) >If it bothers you, think of the life scale as measuring not the physical >life of the ally, but the commitment to the Cause -- the Garou gets hit >by a Sewer Lid and (instead of dying) decides that hey, maybe he doesn't >want to hang out with Vliam quite so much any more. I like this theory. Works very well. This goes hand in hand with the theory about how Duck didn't really die. He faked his death and that's why I can re-influence him into play again! Halcyan 2

Hey guys, thanx for the response, but i got 2 different answers to this one: -Can you play a card that requires a certain clan, like a Hunting Ground, even if the only vampire you have of that clan is in Torpor? <"Yes; the vampire of the clan must simply be controlled, not necessarily ready. However, the vampire who gains the blood from the Hunting Ground cannot be in torpor, per card text ("ready vampire")."> ....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to be ready... so, which is it, guys? by the way, very nice to see that a simple message about rules can ignite such a discussion about (im)mortals, being committed to the cause and such.. very nice indeed.. -Teeka, the Caitiff Justicar (lol) and Prince of Amstelveen [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8ugu01$tbj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] ????? Prince of Amstelveen!? Haven't seen that on the Prince List. Teeka, get in touch with me, we have a large local base of players. Regards, Tim Eijpe Prince of Utrecht e-mail: time...@hotmail.com -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: > ....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to > be ready... so, which is it, guys? LSJ is official. No-one else is. (Though a lot of us can be right, too.) However, from the new rules book: "If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only be played by a Methuselah who controls a ready member of that clan. " -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "Steve: Yeah, well that's one of the advantages of being a sad, lonely fairy, I guess. You get to learn how to be a spy." - Stephen Fry, Making History

teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: > ....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to > be ready... so, which is it, guys? Not sure what you're looking for here. If you have a statement from the official net.rep and rules authority already, another one is probably not going help resolve the situation. If you like, though, check the rulebook. [1.6.1.3] [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:42:26 GMT, teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: >....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to >be ready... so, which is it, guys? LSJ's answer is always going to be the correct one, as he is the V:TES net.representative; it's his job to be right. The rest of us enjoy responding for the hell of it. :) >-Teeka, the Caitiff Justicar (lol) and Prince of Amstelveen ....note that Caitiff is specifically not a clan, so can't have a justicar. :) Caitiff prince, now... :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:44:57 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: >> ....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to >> be ready... so, which is it, guys? > >LSJ is official. No-one else is. (Though a lot of us can be right, too.) > >However, from the new rules book: > >"If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only >be played by a Methuselah who controls a ready member of >that clan. " must download new rules book and save to desktop for reference... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > >However, from the new rules book: > > > >"If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only > >be played by a Methuselah who controls a ready member of > >that clan. " > > must download new rules book and save to desktop for reference... I just go and fetch a copy when I need it. Presumably, by now, it should be safely tucked into the University cache. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:05:12 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Derek Ray wrote: >> >However, from the new rules book: >> > >> >"If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only >> >be played by a Methuselah who controls a ready member of >> >that clan. " >> >> must download new rules book and save to desktop for reference... > >I just go and fetch a copy when I need it. Presumably, by now, it should >be safely tucked into the University cache. I'm on an old clunky 28.8 Mo-Dem, though. Fetching 200k constantly can be a pain, and my cache cycles through itself about once every two days or so. I'd much prefer it if I had a University cache for it to be tucked into, though. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> In article <20001109235846...@ng-cs1.aol.com>, > Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote: > >> And I'm not sure exactly what you can call wraiths like Ambrosius. > > Mortals, I'd say, since the only way to _become_ a wraith is by, well, > morting. Post-mortals, if you want to get picky. Morting. I like that. Necromancy needs a card with "Morting" in either the text or the title. Heck, even in the artwork! ("Tony's Morting Service") >> While it's interesting to have a variety of supernatural (and banal) allies, >> VTES is indeed heavily biased towards vampires. Of course you'd expect that >> from a game about VAMPIRES, but most supernaturals are at least supposed to >> be >> balanced somewhat in the RPG's. (i.e. Mummies, Garou, and Mages are SO weak >> it's not even funny!). > > If it bothers you, think of the life scale as measuring not the physical > life of the ally, but the commitment to the Cause -- the Garou gets hit > by a Sewer Lid and (instead of dying) decides that hey, maybe he doesn't > want to hang out with Vliam quite so much any more. > > This approach gets a little funky with Compel the Spirit, but one can't have > everything. Maybe the Spirit doesn't have to leave the body to be Compelled. > Or something. Well, it sound like the Garou skipping town while not being actually dead is in the "Flesh is willing, but the *Spirit* is weak," and maybe he just needs a "Compelling" argument (like yanking on his soul-strings) to get back to work. But, I also really like the "I don't paid enough for this!" argument of "under-tough" allies skipping town. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:sp5o0ts6tuemnucfj...@4ax.com... > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:44:57 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> > wrote: > > >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: > >> ....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to > >> be ready... so, which is it, guys? > > > >LSJ is official. No-one else is. (Though a lot of us can be right, too.) > > > >However, from the new rules book: > > > >"If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only > >be played by a Methuselah who controls a ready member of > >that clan. " > > must download new rules book and save to desktop for reference... Didn't buy any starters, eh? Give me your address, I'll send you some rulebooks. :) > -- Derek > Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta > > "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." > - C. Darwin, 1871 -- Kevin J. Mergen, kjme...@home.com, Prince of Madison, WI "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, "The Art of War" "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

In article <oa7o0tcjr0a2riqh7...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:05:12 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> > wrote: > > >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > >> >However, from the new rules book: > >> > > >> >"If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only > >> >be played by a Methuselah who controls a ready member of > >> >that clan. " > >> > >> must download new rules book and save to desktop for reference... > > > >I just go and fetch a copy when I need it. Presumably, by now, it should > >be safely tucked into the University cache. > > I'm on an old clunky 28.8 Mo-Dem, though. Fetching 200k constantly > can be a pain, and my cache cycles through itself about once every two > days or so. I'd much prefer it if I had a University cache for it to > be tucked into, though. :) > > -- Derek > Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta hey the cache at my university gets cleaned every two weeks. so downloading wouldn´t be that handy and it seems that if you download non-study material too often, you could lose your computer-privileges. so i ain´t gonna do it! [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <ek5o0t0n3op3cij6a...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:42:26 GMT, teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: > > >....LSJ amongst others gave me the answer that the vampire DOES have to > >be ready... so, which is it, guys? > > LSJ's answer is always going to be the correct one, as he is the V:TES > net.representative; it's his job to be right. The rest of us enjoy > responding for the hell of it. :) > > >-Teeka, the Caitiff Justicar (lol) and Prince of Amstelveen > > ....note that Caitiff is specifically not a clan, so can't have a > justicar. :) Caitiff prince, now... :) > -- Derek > Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta > > "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." > - C. Darwin, 1871 the Caitiff Justicar thing was a joke, i asked about their clanlessness in my f**king message, didn´t i ? and since i´m new, i was not aware that LSJ was the OFFICIAL representative, so no reason to get pickin on me for asking the same question again if i get two different answers!!! ...little pissed off here, i was just wondering about stuff..jeez! and i do find the rulebook (the one in the basic set that is) very chaotic and not helping at all most of the time, especially if you have no-one to teach you.. i had to make a summary for myself of game-terms, phases of the game and such in order to get to understand the rules. so pardon me if some questions i ask seem simple to you, you guys started out with nothing too. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:04:45 GMT, teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <ek5o0t0n3op3cij6a...@4ax.com>, > Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> LSJ's answer is always going to be the correct one, as he is the V:TES >> net.representative; it's his job to be right. The rest of us enjoy >> responding for the hell of it. :) >> >> >-Teeka, the Caitiff Justicar (lol) and Prince of Amstelveen >> >> ....note that Caitiff is specifically not a clan, so can't have a >> justicar. :) Caitiff prince, now... :) >> -- Derek > >the Caitiff Justicar thing was a joke, i asked about their clanlessness >in my f**king message, didn´t i ? and since i´m new, i was not aware ...well, you asked if they were part of the Camarilla, which isn't really the same thing. >that LSJ was the OFFICIAL representative, so no reason to get pickin on >me for asking the same question again if i get two different answers!!! Relax. Nobody was picking on you. Note the :)'s scattered through my message. I was just pointing out that LSJ's answer will -always- be right, and letting you know *why* his will always be right. as regards the printed rulebook; yes, the original Jyhad rulebook could have been better. But the online version of the NEW printed rulebook, found on White Wolf's site, is a lot better. And the Sabbat War starters (if you can find some) come with a lovely little printed card detailing each of the symbols and some other useful stuff. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 teeka...@my-deja.com wrote: > the Caitiff Justicar thing was a joke, i asked about their clanlessness > in my f**king message, didn´t i ? I think you've entirely mis-read the tone of the previous message. The smileys tend to suggest that it was meant in good humour. > and since i´m new, i was not aware > that LSJ was the OFFICIAL representative, It says as much in his posts. [ quoted text not captured ]

to close this thread off, i want to say sorry about getting pissed off, i thought i was not being taken seriously. the online rulebook is indeed better, you guys have to understand my q's were about the original one in the base set. so again thanx for everyone who helped me out, hope i didn't hurt anyone's feelings. Teeka [ quoted text not captured ]