Signposts and Daggers

OK, here's the situation: Bianca with super Potence and +1 Hand Damage gets into a fight. She plays Torn Signpost. She has a Sengir Dagger. She strikes using Undead Strength (+2 to hnd or melee). How much damage is done? Is this damage aggravated via the Dagger? Would a Wooden Stake work the same way (as the Dagger)? Can you use the Dagger (or any melee weapon) with the Signpost? Thanks Andy

Ok, Bianca with Superior Potence (+1 hand) uses Torn Signpost (3 base hand) with Undead Strength (+2 hand) and a Sengir Dagger (Aggro Melee weapon). Beacuse Sengir Dagger says that any extra hand damage provided by another card is also Aggro, then Bianca would do 6 Aggro damage. Just think of Torn Signpost as a feat of strength ("Boy, I'm mad. I rip up trees! I break stuff! I break you!") rather than a Stop Sign as a Melee weapon, and your set. As far as I understand the wourding on the new Stake goes, I would assume that it works the same. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "I die with him again and again And I feel good in my revenge" -Kate Bush

You either strike with the Sengir Dagger or the Undead Strength the latter can be used with Torn Signpost. Errol T.

an...@vt.edu (Andy Berlett) writes: >OK, here's the situation: >Bianca with super Potence and +1 Hand Damage gets into a fight. She plays >Torn Signpost. She has a Sengir Dagger. She strikes using Undead Strength >(+2 to hnd or melee). >How much damage is done? Officially, 3 (signpost) +2 (Undead Strength) aggravated (Dagger) = 5 agg. Course, we have a house rule that the Signpost effectively makes a distinct melee strike option, not a hand strike (i.e., you can boost it with Undead Strength, but you can't use it to boost other strikes - like the Dagger's) >Is this damage aggravated via the Dagger? Yes. >Would a Wooden Stake work the same way (as the Dagger)? Dunno. A stake from Jyhad would not, since it doesn't say anything about hand damage. It would only get the bonus from the Undead Strength (making it a 3-damage strike which paralyzes) >Can you use the Dagger (or any melee weapon) with the Signpost? Any melee weapon that is based on hand damage, yes. (Jyhad's Rowan Ring would not be included). -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Always remember you're unique, http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | just like everyone else. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

On 4 May 1996, PDB6 wrote: > Just think of Torn Signpost as a feat of strength ("Boy, I'm mad. I rip > up trees! I break stuff! I break you!") rather than a Stop Sign as a > Melee weapon, and your set. I never really understood the logic of a feat of strength increasing hand damage during an entire combat, but maybe my opinion that the added damage is because of a one-shot melee weapon is due to the picture of a crooked signpost with dent marks (IMHO, one of the best pictures in the set). If you're right, maybe that card is the only card with an exactly same effect as another one, Fists of Death (if you disallow stacking of said card). Well, just picture Gloria Giovanni (or some other stilish vamp with potence) infuriated, tearing all the signposts on the street, throwing them to the side and bashing violently you opponent with your bare hands! Like Hulk :) Only Hulk doesn't need melee weapons... But if you *do* use the Torn Signpost as a one-shot melee weapon, you can then follow the rules and say that the strikes with a TSP are one thing and strikes with daggers are another (and hand strikes are even another, for that matter...). But all this is cheap talk... I believe all that can be said is only house rules. Tom Wylie only can say the official ruling on this. David Pontes 8[

Torn Signpost and Fists of Death have two very different effects. Torn Signpost sets your base hand damage at 2/3, while Fists of Death gives you +1/+2 hand damage. Thus, assuming superior Potence, if you play TS, you have a base hand damage of 3, and any other cards you play on top of that (that give plusses to Hand Damage) add to your hand damage. If you play TS, and then play Fists of Death, and then strike with Undead Strength, you will hit for 7 hand damage (3+2+2). As Fists of Death gives a damage bonus rather than a base hand damage (like TS), you can play multiple FoD (why would you be not allowed to play more than 1 FoD, or stack FoD on TS?) on top of a TS, and then still play Undead Strength as your strike and hit for 9 or 11 or whatever. TS is not a strike. It sets your hand damage at a specific base (2 or 3). FoD adds to your base hand damage (+1 or +2), and Undead Strength is a Strike: +1 or +2 damage with your hand or melee weapon. The point behind picturing TS as a feat of strength rather than swinging a Yeild sign about, is that while TS is called Torn Signpost, and it shows a picture of a signpost, as all the rules go it is just a way of making your hand damage bigger. It is completely cumulitive with other hand strikes (like US and Burning Wrath), FoD (even multiples therof), and melee weapons that say "+1 Hand Damage" or whatever. If Zack North (+1 hand damage) plays Torn Signpost at superior (3 base hand damage) while wielding a Bastard Sword (+1 hand damage), he would strike with the sword for 5. This may defy some logic if you are want to think about it too literally, but it is the way the VTES rules work. He could even use Undead Strength with it (as US says "strike with hand or melee weapon...") and hit for 7. This debate came up 2 or 3 months ago, and these are the official rules, according to Tom. You are perfectly welcome to use a house rule to say that TS is a melee weapon, but you should not be surprised when some opponent tries to beat you with a Stake on the end of a Signpost in some tournament situation. :-) Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "To die by your side Well, the pleasure, the privilege is mine" -The Smiths

David Pontes wrote: > > On 4 May 1996, PDB6 wrote: > > > Just think of Torn Signpost as a feat of strength ("Boy, I'm mad. I rip > > up trees! I break stuff! I break you!") rather than a Stop Sign as a > > Melee weapon, and your set. > > I never really understood the logic of a feat of strength > increasing hand damage during an entire combat, but maybe my opinion > that the added damage is because of a one-shot melee weapon is due to > the picture of a crooked signpost with dent marks. I've always viewed the torn signpost as using a jagged piece of metal, such as a handy dandy signpost, as your weapon for a particular combat. Of course, it takes a feat of strength to rip up and mangle the thing in the first place; hence the potence symbol. What you seem to be describing is a little more like an attack along the lines of your "Hulk smash" example, but suggesting the opposing vampire takes damage from simply smashing things doesn't make sense, IMHO. Hey, these are beings who are hundreds of years old, and I don't think they will take damage based on intimidation. I've always pictured it more like this (and I agree, the picture is very good): two vamps encounter each other out somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Looking for a weapon, the potence vampire finds only a lonely street sign, but it is imbedded in the ground in concrete. With a mighty feat of strength, he/she rips that up and, voila', a weapon. The jagged pieces of metal make it all the more effective. Although the vamp fights with the sign in that battle, it is not exactly something he can tuck in his pocket, like his trusty .44, so it is discarded after that fight. All this is only my spin on it, of course. Unde...@popmail2.vnet.net

> I've always viewed the torn signpost as using a jagged piece of > metal, such as a handy dandy signpost, as your weapon for a particular > combat. Of course, it takes a feat of strength to rip up and mangle > the thing in the first place; hence the potence symbol. Well, remember, the _card_says_ that it just increases your hand damage. Think of it this way. A Gangrel plays Wolf Claws, what happens? His/her hands grow long, dangerous claws. A Brujah/Nosferatu plays Torn Signpost, what happens? His muscles grow really big and, as just a feat of unnatural strength, tears a signpost out of the ground. Then, proceeds to beat you up with his muscles, not the signpost, since "he's huge". > What you seem to be describing is a little more like an attack > along the lines of your "Hulk smash" example, but suggesting the > opposing vampire takes damage from simply smashing things doesn't > make sense, IMHO. Hey, these are beings who are hundreds of years > old, and I don't think they will take damage based on intimidation. Remember, the opposing vampire doesn't take damage from the Torn Signpost card. If it takes hand damage at all, it will be increased, not because it is afraid, but because "you're huge". BTW, I think a card that _does_ work the way you suggest would be interesting, but Torn Signpost doesn't. James -- James Hamblin | jham...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu -------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't worry; base 8 is just like base 10, if you're missing two fingers." -- Tom Lehrer, "New Math"

Wooden Stake interacts with hand damage modifiers in the same way as Sengir Dagger. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

James Hamblin wrote: > Well, remember, the _card_says_ that it just increases your hand damage. I decided to go the the source, and am holding a Torn Signpost in my hand; actually one from each set. The wording is as follows: "Only usable before range is determined. This vampire can inflict 2 hand damage as a strike for the remainder of the combat. [Superior version] As above, but vampire can inflict 3 hand damage as a strike for the remainder of the combat. Card doesn't actually say it increases your hand damage, like, say, an Undead Stretgth or Mighty Grapple, which specifically state "+X hand damage" on the cards. I still think my interpretation is just as viable > Think of it this way. A Gangrel plays Wolf Claws, what happens? His/her > hands grow long, dangerous claws. A Brujah/Nosferatu plays Torn > Signpost, what happens? His muscles grow really big and, as just a feat > of unnatural strength, tears a signpost out of the ground. Then, > proceeds to beat you up with his muscles, not the signpost, since "he's > huge". But, here we have the difference in disciplines. The Gangrel with Wolf Claws or Claws of the Dead is using Protean, or shapeshifting, as required by the cards. Therefore, it seems perfectly logical to me that they can partially shape-shift into a semi-animalistic form with just their claws. Think of the clan, BTW, and this matches with the Gangrel traditions; they are all able to shift into animals because of their close ties to the wild and nature (vampires on Kindred: The Embraced notwithstanding!). On the other hand, Potence is a very simple discipline: strength, pure and simple. I don't think the use of every discipline requires the vampire to make a physical change to use that ability. > Remember, the opposing vampire doesn't take damage from the Torn Signpost > card. If it takes hand damage at all, it will be increased, not because > it is afraid, but because "you're huge". See my response, above. > BTW, I think a card that _does_ work the way you suggest would be > interesting, but Torn Signpost doesn't. The one thing we do agree on is the mechanics of Torn Signpost. I do not play my Brujah deck w/o them. It is a great card to whip out, especially if you have a thrown sewer lid in your hand as well: "What, you maneuver long to avoid my Torn Signpost (or big, Popeye-like muscles, in your example)? Oh, well, have a sewer lid through the head...Press into round two!" Of course, it also works well with traps and Tastes of Vitae...:-) Unde...@popmail2.vnet.net

Well, once again, crappy wordings on V:TESH cards have confused the issue. The Jyhad Torn Signpost says: I: Play before range is determined. Vampire does 2 hand damage for the remainder of combat. S: As bove, but ... 3 hand damage ... [ quoted text not captured ]

>I decided to go the the source, and am holding a Torn Signpost in my hand; >actually one from each set. The wording is as follows: > "Only usable before range is determined. > This vampire can inflict 2 hand damage > as a strike for the remainder of the combat. > [Superior version] > As above, but vampire can inflict > 3 hand damage as a strike for the > remainder of the combat. My stash is gone; can I have what you're smokin'? :-) Jyhad Torn Signpost: " Play before range is determined. Vampire does 2 hand damage for the remainder of combat. [superior] As above, but vampire does 3 hand damage for the remainder of combat". I don't see the word "strike" anywhere on this card, which means the following: 1. It works on all strikes in a round; 2. It works on all strikes in this combat; 3. You can add strikes that add +1, +3, even +3 aggravated hand damage (one at a time, please); 4. You can add multiple Fists of Death if you wish; 5. You can change your mind and toss a car instead. Why would you deliberately misquote this card? TJH

He didn't misquote the card, he just quoted the very poorly worded VTES version of Torn Signpost. The VTES wording could be misconstrued as being a Strike: card, and some WoTC answer people were heard saying (erroneously) that TS was a strike, but this is not the case. TS is not a Strike: card. Tom Wiley himself stated this when this came up a few months ago and I started a "What is the deal with the new Torn Signpost?" crusade. Tom clearly stated that TS is NOT a strike card, and thus Undead Strength, multiple Fists of Death, or any other hand strike may be stacked on top of it. Torn Signpost sets a vampires hand damage at 2 or 3, and that is it. The vampire is not compelled to use hand strikes after playing TS, nor is he prevented from using any other strike while TS is in effect. It is perfectly legal for KoKo to play TS at the beginning of a combat, manuver to long range, throw a Sewer Lid, press, stay at close range on the second round, use a Strike:Dodge, press into the third round, play Fists of Death at the beginning of the third round and then use Undead Strength to hit for 4 (or 7 if KoKo has superior Potence) on this third round. Again, Torn Signpost sets a vampires hand damage at 2 or 3. This is not that vampires Strike, but if that vampire chooses to strike with his hand (the default strike that all vampires get), he will hit for 2 or 3. If that vampire plays any other card that adds to this hand damage (like FoD), he has bigger hand damage. If that vampire then chooses to use a Strike: card that is a hand strike, and adds to his hand damage (like Undead Strength or Lucky Blow), this will add onto the hand damage base of TS. Just to clear up the various Potence cards, here they are: Torn Signpost: Not a strike, just sets the vampires base hand damage at 2 or 3. Other cards may be use in addition, like Fists of Death and/or Undead Strength. Fists of Death: Not a strike, just adds 1 or 2 to the vampires basic hand damage. This is different than TS, as it can be used with TS to do even more hand damage, and as it is +1/+2, you can use more than one if you really want to. Undead Strength: This is a strike, so only one may be used during each strike phase. As is is Strike:+1/+2 hand damage (or melee weapon damage), it can be used in addition to TS and/or FoD. A vampite who is using TS and FoD who strikes with US will hit for 7 assuming superior Potence. Mighty Grapple (at superior): This is a strike just like US, but only +1 hand damage and providing a press. A vamp using TS and FoD can strike with superior MG for 6, and then will have a press to do it again next round. Burning Wrath: This is a strike that adds +1/+2 aggro damage to the vamps hand strike. A vamp using TS and FoD who strikes with BW will hit for 7 (assuming superior Pot, again), some or all of which will be aggrivated (this will either be 2 points or all of it, depending on how you interperite the card, and I don't know the ruling...). Thus, I continue in my untiring crusade to insure that everyone understands all the important Potence cards... [ quoted text not captured ]